Click here to go to the NEW College Discussion Forum

This is a continuation of Yale decisions are out (part 1).

Discuss amongst yourselves...

By Blossom (Blossom) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Jamimom, I had to smile as I read your post about the transfer to NYU question. I know my friends consider me anti- pre-med, but I've known too many people who chose their college on the basis of med school admissions, who ended up wanting something entirely different, and then had to deal with unraveling a life-long dream. If it were me I would encourage my child to take a semester off, if doing so was cost-neutral. She could get a job interning at an ad agency (working there is different from freelancing on a project or two)to test the waters, without blowing off her med school plans. You can both agree on a decision time frame.
Med school is not for the faint at heart, nor is a career in the Fine arts. Finishing out the year at her current school with an understanding that she can spend time this summer looking for a fall internship seems like a reasonable agreement. To all of you parents out there --- make sure, make sure, make sure that your senior is trying to determine if the college is a fit, and that your kid isn't pursuing some major or career goal to the exclusion of everything else.

By Sac (Sac) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit

As the person responsible for the story about choosing your college based on where your hair wouldn't frizz, I have to say that my friend's decision seems to have been based on some research. But it shows how many (most?) 17 or 18 years olds really make these decisions, whether the issue is hair, food, girlfriend, or one great or terrible overnight in the dorm, the sense of humor of the tour guide, or the reputation of one department that is bought wholesale the next year by either NYU or USC -- and turns out to be a department the student never takes a course in, anyway. Long after the students who didn't get in get over their disappointment and find themselves happy at their schools, some of the students who got into their first choice will be wondering what they ever saw in the place scheming for ways to get out.

I just hope that Yale doesn't do the same thing as the nursery school which rejected my daughter, and send a fundraising letter to "Friends" of the school two months later. It took all my maturity, plus my husband's, to throw it in the waste basket rather than scrawl unkind words and send it back.

Brownalum,
You're right, we should trust you, since you apparently know everyone, every city, every college campus, and everything on the planet, and you clearly have also had years of sensitivity training.

By Brownjohn2 (Brownjohn2) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Soozievt - When you say your d likes Harvard, but it doesn't fit her needs, are you talking about their architecture program? Or something else?

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 05:48 pm: Edit

I am well aware that kids get rejected by nursery schools, but such reality does not lessen my instinct to cringe when hearing of it. Please forgive me. I handle the sad news of Yale deferrals and rejections easier for some reason.

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 06:00 pm: Edit

What a thread! First off -- all the best to thedad's D. The disappointment really hurts, but all will be well.
Emerald and Jamimom, what well-timed reminders that getting into that one school is not necessarily the happily-ever-after at the end of the story. Sometimes, this focus on admissions reminds me of a girl who spends two years planning the wedding of her dreams with nary a thought for her married life after. (This is not a knock on any parents here, by the way, who seem to handle it all with grace and intelligence.)

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Thedad,
I am surprised that your D was rejected outright.What a quirky process admissions is!
She sounds like a wonderful young woman, and she's got a good attitude about this, and is very fortunate to have such a supportive dad.
Best of luck to her! The school that gets her will be fortunate, indeed.
I can't remember: Is she applying to places such as Vassar and Wesleyan, too, which seem very artsy so might have special appreciation for her dancing talents?

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Brownalum:

I'm so glad you've done the legwork and thinking for all of us in picking the "best" college town, best college, best fruitcake....

This is truly amazing. I've not heard anyone forcing the "best" of anything on others in a long time. I thought pepole grew out of this after high school, recognizing that people's tastes, needs and preferences vary. Guess I was wrong.

By Momcat (Momcat) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Over30:
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." John Lennon "Beautiful Boy"
I used to try to sing this song to both my boys when they were little. Also "You Can Close Your Eyes" by James Taylor. Having the first-born applying to colleges has certainly caused waves of nostalgia lately. It's hard to believe how different the next 17 years will be without him on a daily basis. Anyone experiencing this?


"Beautiful Boy" has been a regular in my CD player for a long time. Actually, it was on cassette when I first started playing it, when my S was a baby. And yes, there are certain times when listening to it makes my vision a little fuzzy - especially lately.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Momcat, thanks for posting that...I got the citation from a friend while discussing All This and More over lunch.

Northstarmom, my D is applying to Smith, Wellesley, Barnard, Skidmore, Stanford, and [cough] Harvard.
Harvard has Crimson Ballet, which would fit her needs, but I think she's a longer shot there than she was at Yale EA. More to the point, apropos of the conversation you were having with another student and which I can no longer find, I don't think she's as good a fit for Harvard on the basis of warm/fuzzy...Yale seemed to be the compromise between Harvard and Smith on that score. I *did* think of you yesterday...two hours after she got the news about Yale, she was entering an office building elevator to the 9th floor for her Harvard interview. Being taken seriously by the interviewer seemed to buck up her spirits quite a bit.

Finally, yeah, I thought the odds for ultimate rejection were fairly high but the outright rejection kinda stunned everyone in the house. In two weeks I may feel that this is better in the long run but right now I'm down, crying "Medic!"

I mean, some of the students on this board have been kind of snotty to me sometimes about my pessimism, caution, and wariness...and I find that I wasn't skeptical *enough.*

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Thedad:

If your D decides to take another look at Harvard Smith and Wellesley, do let me know. We could get together.

By Mamadem (Mamadem) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Funny about the fundraising letter from the nursery school!!! This evening, Tufts called our home to see if we would like to donate as we did last year (we have one child already at Tufts. Our reply"Well, we had a nice big check ready for you but our child was deferred from Tufts ED.
Don't really think we'll be sending that check now, sorry.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 08:33 pm: Edit

Marite, I will do so. She never saw Wellesley...it wasn't on her list when we did the Boston-NYC trip, and even Yale was a late add three weeks before we left...who knew?.

My gut says Rejected at Harvard and that I'm serene with.

If she gets into both Wellesley and Smith, we may come back for a quick look-see.

In the "original" College Visits thread in the Parents Forum...it may be archived now but a Search should turn it up, I posted our trip reports for Harvard, Smith, and Yale, among others. I'd be curious about any of your comments if you have the time to turn them up.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:02 pm: Edit

TheDad,

As a fellow UCSB alum, let me know if you make it to Boston, too. My D would be happy to show your D the ropes in Cambridge, the T etc.

By The_Slc_Bug (The_Slc_Bug) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Just a note: the only two people I have known at Skidmore have transferred, one to SLC and one to Boston U. One is a liberal academic and the other is an artist, and they both found Skidmore to be very...uninteresting. One referred to it as, "the pony club school."

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Massdad, I feel like I'm smothering in kindness. I'll ask the PTB to facilitate exchanges of our e-mail addresses.


Slc, Skidmore is D's absolute Safety. If she had been admitted to Yale EA, I doubt she would have finished the application. Paranoia 'R Us.

By The_Slc_Bug (The_Slc_Bug) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

I thought so, but thought I'd throw it in just in case.

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Thedad:

I think you have described Smith very well. Northampton as lesbian capital can put off many people, but I doubt that others would feel in any way harassed or marginalized.

There are indeed a lot of intense people at Harvard, but it is possible to have fun without having to join some time-consuming extra-curricular activity. This morning, a friend of my S who graduated early from high school and is a freshman, came back to the high school to recruit students into an Extension math class for which she hopes be an assistant. He did not have much time to chat beyond telling her he had already decided to take the course, but the general impression is that she loves it there (she is a serious opera fan and sings).

I don't know whether Wellesley would have the ballet facilities that are so important to your D. The campus is gorgeous, with a pseudo-gothic architecture that is quite reminiscent of Yale. It is by a lake. The atmosphere is somewhat more competitive than Smith (Hilary Clinton and Madeleine Allbright are alumnae), which, for some may be a good thing. For people living far away, it is only 35 minutes from Boston, and thus closer to the airport than Smith. The town is very affluent (nearby Weston is perhaps the most affluent towns in MA, with Wellesley very close), so the town has a manicured suburban feel reminiscent of Princeton. Wellesley is even better endowed than Smith, so students get lots of opportunities to study abroad or do special projects. It is well worth considering.

By The_Slc_Bug (The_Slc_Bug) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Thedad,

Just out of curiousity, why not Amherst?

By Pauly (Pauly) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 10:19 pm: Edit

I agree with parents such as Jamimom who firmly believe in the best fit approach to college. While I agree that Yale is a great college, there certainly are many other excellent choices out there. While Brownalum is entitled to his opinions of Yale and New Haven, it certainly does not apply universally. I was accepted by Yale a number of years ago, and after visiting the campus, made the decision to attend a well-regarded small liberal arts college in New England. Perhaps it was fate to visit on a rainy weekend, but I didn't see how I could live in New Haven for four years, which seemed very cold and dreary during that particular weekend. This obviously was a subjective gut feeling by an 18 year old. However, looking back, I believe I made the right choice as I was able to make friendships with faculty and classmates at my college that are still vital today. I also benefited greatly from the close sense of community at my college. In terms of graduate or professional school, I was able to get into my top choice for medical school (Johns Hopkins), and felt every bit as prepared as my Ivy-league counterparts. In some ways, I believe that my college education was more well-rounded than most of my classmates. I would urge students (and parents) to choose where the think they can best fluorish.
There are many excellent universities and colleges out there. As I have said to my children (three of whom are in high school), ultimately it will be your responsibility to make the best out of wherever you go.

By Brownalum (Brownalum) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Pauly,

New Haven has drastically changed in the past few years.

I generally agree with your post, but please note that it does not apply universally. It has a little bit of a sour grapes sound to it.

-Brownalum

In this entire thread, the only thing "sour" are your posts. We do not need a "sour grapes policeman" thank you.

<moderator>

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Brownjohn2 (are you the same person as Brownalum?) asks:
"Soozievt - When you say your d likes Harvard, but it doesn't fit her needs, are you talking about their architecture program? Or something else?"

My daughter visited Harvard in Nov. of her junior year and it was one of her earliest college visits. That trip consisted of Tufts, Harvard, and Brown. Our plans were to visit the schools on her list she was seriously considering applying to. There were ten schools visited total. While her visit at Harvard was not as comprehensive as some of her other college visits .....this one consisted of the info. session, the tour, stopping by the engineering department cause the professors she wanted to see emailed that they were to be out of town that day, and meeting up with a senior at Harvard who had been val at our school four years prior whose mom is a science teacher at our school. That girl showed us inside the "houses". Our other visits have been more involved but this was a good start in any case. My daughter certainly liked Harvard as a school and the house system and the location (has been to Harvard Square many times during her life before this). At that early point in time, she was contemplating possible academic majors she might want to pursue in college and once she had some inkling, she used that to narrow down which colleges had those fields. Back then she was deciding between engineering and architecture. She had just begun a year long independent study in architecture. She had not yet done an internship in the field but has since done so. Anyway, it is hard contemplating fields of study that one has very little exposure to in high school....for instance, how does a child really know what engineering is like? This is different than , let's say, my other child who plans to pursue musical theater and can say wholeheartedly she KNOWS she loves the field cause she has been immersed in it her whole life. Soon after that college trip, my daughter decided she was leaning toward architecture rather than engineering. She met with an engineering professor at both Tufts and Brown on that trip (an aside is that we were impressed that the Brown professor was willing to come in and meet her on a Saturday!). These visits were fruitful cause it helped my daughter get a bit of a look at what studying engineering would be about. Afterall, part of visiting colleges is to make such discoveries. Once she decided to go after schools with architecture, Harvard came off her list. Harvard only has history of architecture as an undergraduate major. It has one of the best design schools in the country for graduate school, however. My daugther wants her undergraduate studies in architecture to include design studio work. Harvard is not right for her in this one regard cause it does not offer this. While a 17 year old can change her mind with a major (soooo common early in the college years), she figured she must find a school that at least has the architecture major and if for some reason she ends up not pursuing that, these schools offer most anything else. But vice versa is not true. For instance, she cannot apply to Amherst and hope to go into architecture as an undergraduate major. So, that is why Harvard came off the list. I went there for graduate school and her grandma went to Radcliffe but who cares, this was not the right match for her. Since that time, my daughter has done way more in terms of architecture...she interned with an architect last summer where she was given real architectural tasks to do. She has done several papers in school with architectural themes, some major....has taken many art courses, and did a study of drafting, mechanical drawing and learned AutoCad. She has met with architecture faculty at each school on her list, plus attended classes so has a pretty strong desire to explore this field as her major.

That is why when Brown alum went off on which school is the best, yadda yadda...I do not agree cause it is about finding the right MATCH for one's own set of criteria. I realize some kids just apply to "good schools" but in my Ds case, her selections were based on college criteria that she thought about a long time after answering various quesitionnaires that had her focus on these areas.

Harvard is an amazing place but not for everyone. I loved going to grad school there and I loved living in Cambridge for four years when I was first married. One attraction of Tufts for my D is that she is a hop, skip, and jump from Harvard Square anyway, so that can be had even if not attending Harvard. Tufts has the programs she wants so there is the difference.

Susan

By Aparent3 (Aparent3) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit

TheDad, for the record U.S. News did rank Princeton and Harvard as number 1, fwiw. I don't think that related to application numbers. I think Yale was inundated because it was the first year of Single Choice Early Action. I think Princeton had fewer because it was ED.

Btw, from our school students do much better with applications to Harvard than to Yale. Who knows what makes things happen the way they do?

To Brownalum, your username is not making the rest of us Brunonians look good. ;-( Believe it or not, my d chose not to apply to Yale early because she found it weak in an area that is very important to her, and believe me, there are plenty of complaints from students in the Yale Daily News to confirm this. D will be attending
Princeton, where money for research and internships is plentiful and where her area of interest is well-funded.

Up until recently, btw, Yale had a stated policy of "selective excellence;" it was focusing its money in only a few departments, knowing that it simply couldn't afford to have them sparkle across the board. I like many things about Yale,
but I think your comments are over the top. It is not nirvana; nor is any college.

Last thing: the residential colleges at Yale are largely funded by donations from each college's Parents' Fund and alumni, resulting in some widely publicized inequities: http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=23333

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Brownalum...it is not sour grapes to have an opinion about a certain city/town. If I were to roll back the clock before yesterday's Yale decisions.....
I know exactly what my daughter would say about New Haven and comparing it to elsewhere. Her thoughts were the same then as they are today. She thought the area surrounding the campus was really great. She wants her college to have areas of things to do in walking distance from campus. Yale fit the bill just great in that regard. She would also tell you that when comparing Tufts to Yale, she would rather be in Boston, BUT loved the area around Yale well enough. That is what I meant in an earlier post. She made sure she liked her criteria at each college. In this case, she liked the location/setting of those two schools. But one was stronger in her mind in that one bullet point. In that regard, Tufts was. But not enough to not be thrilled to be living in New Haven.

My other daughter's best friend from her six years of her summer theater program lives in a suburb of New Haven and attends a private prep school there. We have stayed there a few times. (to the dad, this is the kid who dances at New Haven Ballet and my younger D took a class there). I mean they like it just fine. Their daughter gets on a train into NYC quite often to meet her summer camp friends. I know my D would have enjoyed all of that too. But I would not have said that New Haven is better than some of these other campus settings or cities. But it was appealing enough for my D , particularly after growing up in a rural area. But I do not think it is sour grapes to say that while New Haven has certainly been gentrified, particularly right around Yale, it is not like heaven on earth as far as cities go. I felt that then and now after her deferral. Do I think she would love it there? Yes! My opinion is based on preferences, NOT on sour grapes.

Susan
PS...she thought the area near Brown was appealing as well and would enjoy living there. Was it better than Boston in her mind? NO, but surely good enough for her to consider attending.

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Brownalum, you said "I would be much worried about people pushing great students to settle for third-rate schools when they have a chance at the top." in reference to the supposed "sour grapes" that many parents have towards Yale. The parents here are not trying to deny their children the chance of going to Yale it is just that many of them are forced to confront the fact that their children might not get into Yale. I think all of the parents here are here because they pushed their children to shoot for the top. Now that their children are deferred/rejected they are forced to look at other schools and evaluate their options if Yale doesn't work out.

As a deferred student myself, I still think that Yale would be the best match for me and for people with my interests and needs you are right, it is the best university in the world. After last night, however, I was forced to confront the fact that although Yale might be the best match for me, I might not be the best match for Yale. I have since reevaluated my list and talked to friends who are just back from college and realized that the other schools on my list, (Harvard, UChicago, Williams, Amherst, Columbia, and Vassar) were all on there for a reason--sometime before I became enfatuated with Yale, I envisioned myself as being happy and enjoying my academic experience there--and suddenly all of those feelings and thoughts came rushing back into my head. They would all be great places to be and while they might not be Yale, in terms of what I need, they are pretty damn close. The point is, Brownalum, that not everyone gets to go to Yale, but even so its not like the 5,000 students at Yale are the only ones that are happy with their college life and will go on to success in life. While I eagerly hope for my deferral to turn into an acceptance, I know that I have to look at my other options as a definite possibility so my college experience is not haunted by "the ghost of Yale."

By Toesover2 (Toesover2) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:47 pm: Edit

"School counselor's report...the *college* counselors are idiots and I shudder to think how they may have filled out the personal characteristics grid based on very little knowledge."

Thedad - I attend your D's high school. Give the counselors a break; they have over four hundred students - each. In fact, a fair number of students have been admitted ED/EA to top schools this year- Stanford, Harvard, Brown and Columbia, to name a few. If a student takes the initiaitve to get to know them, they will respond, and it doesn't take that much time to drop by their office for a few minutes. I go in at the beginning of sixth period quite often, and both counselors are always there, and willing to see me - without an appointment. I have found my college counselor to be quite well informed and fair.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:51 pm: Edit

The Dad- I'm sorry that your daughter did not get into Yale but I echo some else's post that she may be better off rejected now rather than later. So many kids in the Yale post are now hoping to get in RD and asking what can they send to Yale to help their chances. Our experience last year was that very,very few kids deferred EA got in RD. I can think of one legacy kid to Dartmouth and that's it. That energy can be better spent looking for a new perfect school and perfected their app. It is also realty check time. For many of my daughter's friends the match schools turned out to be reach and the safeties match. It's disappointing to be sure but she and you can move on now.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:19 am: Edit

I wonder how many of the deferred students had a rolling admissions safety school on their list----and if having an acceptance in hand from such a safety lessened the recently felt pain.

I know I've seen way too many student posts that take the attitude "What? Me apply to a school like that?" I am still haunted by the parent who last year reported their student did not get in anywhere. (Sorry to bring up that thought in this thread.) College admissions should be part "what we would like to happen" mixed with a larger portion of "let's get real" and a tiny dose of crystal ball.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:32 am: Edit

Morgantruce, funny you ask about the rolling admissions safety - my D applied to MSU, which is rolling. They have not "rolled" yet, but told me over the phone today that she's in, even thought the accept will not come for a few weeks. Although this was no surprise, the knowledge still does not hurt.

They have a mid february scholarship exam and music audition that D may attend, so we need to start juggling schedules now.

This ongoing dialog has been very helpful to me, in putting all this in perspective. Yes, it's time to move on mentally, and I think my D has, especially because she's at the rings premiere tonight. We made a BIG exception to curfew.

TheDad, let me know how to exchange contact info. I don't have anything in my profile right now, but could change that.

Regards all.

By Over30 (Over30) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 01:08 am: Edit

Morgantruce - S has not heard yet from his first choice EA school, so is still in limbo on that. (It's not single-choice). He also applied a few weeks ago to another in order to qualify for a scholarship, and he just got the acceptance letter from that school. This 2nd choice is certainly not at the top of his list, but would be acceptable - especially if they decide to give him a scholarship. His acceptance has taken some of the pressure off waiting to hear from his #1 school, and will hopefully blunt some of the disappointment if he's deferred or worse at #1. I was thankful the acceptance came when it did for this very reason.

By Momcat (Momcat) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:16 am: Edit

My S is at the ROTK midnight showing with a large group of friends tonight as well. He's told me that he's already sad that this is the final one. I wish I could have gone, I can't wait to see it but with having to work in the a.m. and not being even close to 18 years old, it would have been a Very Bad Idea.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:23 am: Edit

SLC, I forget why Amherst isn't on D's list but she didn't want to go there. I know she gave it at least two looks because of the whole Five College Consortium thing and she decided it wasn't a good fit. A friend of mine is an alum from there and he raves about it.

Momoffour, if the decision had been Deferred, no way that I would have hung my hat on that hope. More a case of "Pilot down, presumed dead."

Massdad, I think I can get to you.

Toesover2, we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I know of the students who have gotten in early at Stanford, Columbia, and Brown. However, the college counselors have given out bad advice and there are several dozen students who have worked to have their regular counselors do the recs instead. Moreover, quite a number of parents have been appalled at the info sessions the counselors have done. One dismissed high-achieving students as "academic robots" with a sneer...there were several dozen parents in the library that night. I'll admit that one is better than the other but that's as far as I'll take it. And an essential fact is that they *don't* know my D nearly as well as the regular academic counselor does and therefore there shouldn't be pissy turf battle about who fills out the school report form when student, parent, and counselor are in agreement.

By May_1 (May_1) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:31 am: Edit

Just finished reading the rest of the previous topic. (I have a bit of time on my hands since the last final was today and I don't start the third round of my major essay revisions for apps until Thursday.) I just want to say regarding all of the conception posts, as a student (removes maturity cap) eeeeeeewww! A stork dropped me right at my parent's doorstep; I know that 'cause my mom said so! (replaces maturity cap)

On another note, I'd also like to welcome Ms. Hernandez to the board. Actually, in my mini-bookshelf at the back of my desk, the books from left to right are SAT 2 Writing, Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents, Ellison's Invisible Man, Nightwood, Hernandez's A is for Admission, my trusty MLA Handbook, and about 30 others. I have to say I've read it cover to cover about two or three times, and have referenced it a countlees number of times as I did my applications with the earliest due dates. I hope you stay on board the board for the foreseeable future. Welcome!

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:46 am: Edit

MassDad & Over30,
By any measure, our daughters mailed in all their applications very early---during September. Within weeks they had acceptances from rolling admissions colleges. The knowledge that, as another recent poster put it, "I'm going to college!" helped them (and me) pass the time until their early decisions come in. It would have been a comfort if they had to wait through a long winter until April decisions.

The experience also gave them the opportunity to write thoughtful letters to the colleges that had accepted them and really wanted them to attend.

The advantages of sending in applications far in advance of deadlines is something I no longer even try to explain to students who I hear are rushing to gather all the pieces and hoping that SAT scores will be rushed in time. If they can convince themselves that their quickly prepared essay and application was their "best effort" that is just fine.

I would add that in most other matters, I am the biggest procrastinator east of the Rockies---a constant source of worry and embarrassment.

By Bobmcc (Bobmcc) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 03:38 am: Edit

1. Rockefeller University: $7,445,665 (173)
2. Princeton University: $1,266,301 (6,570)
3. Yale University: $955,475 (11,014)
4. Harvard University: $907,301 (18,924)
5. Grinnell College: $795,232 (1,352)
6. Curtis Institute of Music (Pa.): $729,662 (160)
7. Rice University: $707,875 (4,153)
8. Webb Institute (N.Y.): $698,358 (67)
9. Baylor College of Medicine: $683,576 (1,296)
10. Academy of the New Church (Pa.): $613,752

and the rankings each yr depend on how the specific stock in the school's portfolio perform. Intel comes up w/ the next, cheap 64 bit chip for the masses and Grinnell will go right back ahead of yale/harvard (ie 1999 if you check out historical data). I think it's the whole Ivy Based "sour grapes" perception of the rest of the world's presumed jealousy that kept our S from thinking about any ivy. At Grinnell the money's actually SPENT on students.

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 08:12 am: Edit

Morgantruce--we followed your advice on the early rolling admissions application. Knowing he was already into Michigan-Honors made the whole ED process much more relaxed for my S, especially as it had become his second choice. Once the ED decision came he would have been done either way, and happy.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 09:47 am: Edit

Thedad..I am trying to understand the situation with counselors at your D's high school. Are you saying your child has a regular guidance counselor as she goes through high school who knows her pretty well and then come senior year or so, she gets a "college counselor" who does not know her that well and that person writes the report that goes to her colleges? Hmmmm, that does not seem so great. On the one hand, it does sound nice that you have something called college counselors, as we do not. On the other hand, the guidance counselors here are assigned certain kids and they stay with those kids every year and so get to know them over time. In my older daughter's case, she has had the same GC since ninth grade. However, my younger D got him (same one, as they try to keep every sibling with same GC) in seventh grade so will have him for a total of six years before graduating. The only reason my older one did not have him in middle school (by the way our middle school is connected to the HS and shares some things) is cause this system of one GC that stays with you from 7th to 12th grade came about when she was in ninth. Before that one GC was in charge of just MS kids. Anyway, because this GC has known my daughter throughout high school and they have dealt with this and that along the way and they have frequent contact, I can honestly say that when he wrote the report that went to colleges, he spoke from involved experience with my D. While we do not get much college advice from him ar the school at all (like he would never suggest colleges or anything, not that I care cause we have taken the whole thing on ourselves), he really cares about my child's college stuff. He gathers the entire school package, including recs, and has her go over every piece to make sure all is in order, and even has her help collate it all and so forth. There have had to be changes made (do not want to get into the whole school profile/transcript crap that finally got fixed due to our persistance with the principal which has benefitted all the kids, not just ours), but he has worked with my D to make sure it was in order before sending his package out. We sent my D's apps ourselves. But it is not like he guides her through any aspect of this stuff. But I do not mind cause we have taken it all on. Though my D says she feels for other students who she says "needs your help mom!" In any case, the most important of all, is that he cares a great deal about my child and knows her very well and his report was very telling. Honestly while I will be proud of my D for getting into college, I almost am prouder when I read what adults like the GC or teachers wrote about her. To read their words and to think of how they perceive her was more validating in a way, then an admissions stamp of approval.

I think if the system in your school requires some college counselor to write a narrative on a kid he/she has known less than a year, is not a great system, particularly if she had a GC who has known her throughout her high school years. Just my view. However, it is cool that you have people on staff whose sole purpose is the college admissions stuff. Our GC deals with college admissions, plus all the other day to day stuff about students which can range from very disruptive kids on special plans to high achievers going for elite colleges. We have the gammit at our high school...not everyone here even goes to college. The GCs deal with a very wide range of issues in school and of course, they really do have too many kids. But at least our HS is small and everyone knows everyone. The principal knows my kids, and so forth. There is something to be said for that as opposed to a lot of anonymity in large high schools (I know as I went to one).

Susan

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 09:58 am: Edit

To Morgantruce, I agree that I am continually amazed when reading the student forums how many kids put off doing the apps til December and then some put them all off til hearing of their Early decision result...as I cannot begin to imagine how good of a job one could do on all these apps in such a short scrunch of time. To me, part of getting into college is putting your all into producing a great application and all that goes with it (even though that still is no guarantee of admissions as we have witnessed). My D has plugged away on these since school began. I guess some kids do these common apps and one size fits all and have only written one essay or something. I just know that my D has had 8 apps that all differ and it has involved many different essays and all the other individualization like cover letters and contacts, and why X college stuff, etc. I wish she were done but she is finishing up the last two, but none of the reason has to do with putting it off. How in the world she fits this in on top of school, numerous hours of ECs every afternoon AND night and weekend and then heavy amounts of schoolwork nightly and on weekends has amazed me. It is a bit easier to find that time if homeschooled. I do not get how those other kids who post and say they are churning out all these essays and so forth in one night. I know each essay my D has written for college apps (and there have been many so far) has taken her a very long time and many revisions. It has been like major school assignment X 8. The Princeton app alone has five essays and not even including writing why she wants to go there. That is the app she is on now....has revisions to go and one more essay for it. I will be so happy for her when this stage is overwith. As far as Yale EA went for her, it is not like I feel badly that she is not in at Yale (or yet anyway) but more like when you see a kid work so hard on this stuff and there is no reward at the end.....it is life but that is almost more what I feel than whether or not she goes to a certain college. I would feel this way about any endeavor....you see someone put their all into something, you want there to be a positive outcome. However, life's lessons include disappointments and so it is not such a bad thing to go through.

Susan

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 10:04 am: Edit

TheDad,
You probably remember my thoughts on recommendations...

Ask the "regular academic counselor" to write a narrative letter of recommendation to all the colleges. It shows up as a "bonus" recommendation in your daughter's file. This is not so "out of the box" as has been suggested by some.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 10:58 am: Edit

I'm afraid I pushed some buttons lying on Brownalum's nerves with my little vignette. Sorry about that. Did not mean to offend anyone, not even Brownalum. I would love to send a child to Yale. I have always been upfront about my feelings about HYP, though I know well that some of them are quite unreasonable. My son visited Yale on an official athletic 24 hour paid visit. He merrily pitched the app in the trash before he even got home. And I did not say a word. He did like Brown and Dartmouth, and because we lived in NY at that time, I insisted he apply to Cornell. Was not accepted to Dartmouth, waitlisted at Brown and did not bother to respond to the waitlist card--had already enrolled at his chosen school, and turned down Cornell despite the state rebate for NYkers. Not sayingI agreed with him, but I did not say much. No one has ever applied to Yale College in my family, and my son was the closest to showing any real interest.
I have heard many things about New Haven. Have a nephew there who hates it,will leave when he finishes his commitment there, but my son's experience there though 4 years ago, is still quite relevant today. New Haven and Yale have terrible town gown relations and as late as this academic year, the news reports were filled with the labor dispute (Yale's workers walked out) and the hospital suit (still ongoing). There are colleges where the workers are proud to be part of the school, are given tuition rebates and favorable admissions for family. Yale is not such a school. My son's school peppers the ranks of its staff with students, so there is much less of a "them and us" attitude, and more of an air that we are all working together. When I visited some schools, I did notice this attitude and found it refreshing but I do not believe it is often an issue that comes into deciding where to go to college and I do not expect it to be. But Yale has a history of acrimonious town/gown relationships and though I hear New Haven now has more things for Students, there is still a long way to go. I have visited Yale as a guest and enjoyed every minute of my time there, but I was a guest and treated accordingly. Did not venture into the town at all because of my schedule.
I'm not sure why anyone would be defensive about Yale. It has been rated #1 by many college rating systems and the volume of apps this year is certainly a rousing testimony to its popularity. But to close one's eyes and say "there is nothing rotton in New Haven" is rather narrow. But I apparently hit someone's nerve, and apologize for it, and if any of you feel that I am making digs about anyone's choice of Yale and New Haven, please be assured that I am not. I unabashedly admit that I would love to have a Yalie. And I congratulate all of you who have the qualifications and confidence to apply to Yale. That in it's self is saying quite a lot. Most of the kids on this board have stats and ECs much more impressive than the kids I see. Though on this board it seems like this is common place, I assure all of you that it is not. Your kids are truly the cream of the crop. They will help make any campus come to life and be a more vibrant community and they will enjoy a zestful pursuit of intellectual activities, as they have demonstrated already in their young lives.
I marvel constantly at the activities they are pursuing even as they visit their college choices, interview, complete their apps while still keeping up with their main job-academics. It is truly heartening to see what can be done with the energy and motivation of youth.
I don't like NYC much myself. We made a lot of money there, and moved quickly along after we had a bit of a nest egg. But among the college aged crowd it is HOT. My kids are planning to spend their summers there in one capacity or other much to my chagrin. Doubt if they will get out with any money in their bags. But listening to many, many kids talking, planning, doing, I am an old sourpuss about the whole thing. My daughter is planning to do some intership there this summer. New chapter to this tale, will tell you later, am still trying to absorb all of my offspring's adventures. The saga does not end with going to college.
Cheers to you all, and I am absolutely certain that these wonderful Yale EA applicants will find a place where they can have a rewarding college life, be it New Haven or elsewhere.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 11:09 am: Edit

MT & Soozie, yeah, there are regular GC's and then the college counselors. However, there have been several reorganizations and many students have had three or even four GC's in four years. My D has been lucky and had the same one for both junior and senior years. MT, the GC *did* do the narrative essay part of the form and my D wasn't peculiar in this. There are 6 GC's that have seniors (the load is split 9th & 11th, 10th & 12th and they "move" with their students). My D's counselor alone has been requested to do the school rec for more than three dozen students...figure 200 or so overall out of a class of 800+.

Word that I got through the parent network was that they're fine for UC, Cal State, and the local CC, which is highly regarded by the UC system. But if you're interested in private schools back East, "...you better be able to do your own research and manage your own apps" as one parent put it.

My opinion is nowhere approaching unique. After finding out (too late!) how things had been done for most of my D's apps, I e-mailed the principal, copying both the college counselor and the GC, noting my concerns and there was not a ripple when the last app's school report was taken to be filled out by the GC exclusively. The college counselor in question probably isn't speaking to me but that's no skin off my teeth.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

Jamimom:

You should not be apologizing. Since joining CC, I have read your posts with great benefit and marveled at your willingness to share your knowledge and experience with others, both parents and students. And all along, your message that the most important criterion is fit has resonated with me.

Choosing a college is a little bit like choosing a piece of clothing. There is no one size fits all or one kind suits all occasions. The most expensive Italian suit will not be appropriate for someone wanting to go hiking. A size 4 dress will not suit most figures. The most gorgeous shade of red may not suit someone's complexion. And so forth.

Some kids thrive in smaller LACs, others need to be at larger universities. Some people love to live in the suburbs, others are happy only in large cities. Sure, certain cities are more livable than others, but all have their drawbacks. Listening to the kids at my S's high school, I agree that NYC has become a really popular destination for college-bound students.

You mentioned town/gowns relations at Yale. There is also the issue of graduate TAs. Twice, I was tentatively invited to give a talk there over the last couple of years. Twice it has had to be postponed because the TAs went on strike (one of the strike organizers was supposed to be organizing the logistics of my visit!). Nothing to do with his advisor or me; one wonders why Yale TAs as opposed to TAs at other institutions feel the need to go on strike every few years.

Nonetheless, Yale is a great university; I know several of my S's friends who are there and are very happy. But so are his friends who are at MIT or Harvard or Brown.

By Transcriber (Transcriber) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Weighing in late on this matter but our Son was also deferred by Yale so we've joined the club. I've said all along that it was a crapshoot and that has proven to be the case. I've read and re-read the kids' posts trying to discern a pattern, but can't, and TheDad although you and I have had our little disagreements I really felt badly for your daughter as the few stats that you have provided for her are so close to my own son's and she's so much more EC involved, yet he was deferred and she rejected (I know recs and essays were involved but I'm sure they were both great candidates). As Charlie Brown would have said - "I can't stand it, I just can't stand it." I'm just glad that all our kids are so grounded that they've accepted their decisions and moved on to the next step. It unfortunately was the wrong year for Yale EA. So now we roll the dice again and wait for April. And the beat goes on......

And as for you, Brownalum - BAH! HUMBUG!

By Mauretania (Mauretania) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:13 pm: Edit

(coming out from behind the potted plant)

I was sorry to read about all the deferral/rejections here. In particular TheDad and Susan, as I had been following your D's progress and had chatted with you in the past.

It was obviously a huge disappointment considering all the time and effort they put into the applications. I truly believe your daughters will end up attending the college meant for them because of all the research, they've done, in finding the right fit, that I've read about on this board.

I can't comment on the why's, "sour grapes", etc.. since I really don't have any personal knowledge about admission decisions. I did see a few mention "legacy" which I will make a cautious comment on, from experience. I'm surrounded by a family of elite/ivy alum and one school, in particular, we have a long legacy/money given over decades. A few years ago a family member applied to that school and was rejected which caused a major tailspin in the family (nasty letters written to the alum organization, threats of money being pulled etc..). So, this told me that legacy/money doesn't count in some cases, oh
BTW, the family member that had applied did have the stats but I never saw the recs, essays etc..

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Transcriber, our disagreements *must* have been little because I don't remember them.

Disagreements come with the territory of being high profile and opinionated and, ummm, I think it's possible that I might be both. There are maybe half a dozen posters that I will recall as splinters on the bannister of life; most disagreements are merely that.

Someone whom I respect greatly sent some e-mail comments that were pretty negative about D's Yale essay and was afraid that I or D would be upset. Heck, D has overheard writing workshops all her life, with very pointed criticism not affecting goodwill and friendships at all.

Thanks, Transcriber & Mauretania for the kind words.

By Mike (Mike) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:53 pm: Edit

The counseling situation in many public schools is sad. Sometimes the counselor is a loser and sometimes the system is beyond doing. Mike's school has 2 GCs and one work/college C. The GCs are responisible for all emotional and educational needs of 1250 students. Mike's clearly knows little about schools even local ones much less Mike. The work/college person works hard to help kids take care of requirements and knows a lot about in state schools. Each student is assigned a faculty advisor in grade 9. Mike has never met his. There are many very good teachers who fill the void by extra effort but information about colleges outside the area is mostly left up to the individual. This probably explains why 90% of Mike's class mates never sook beyond a couple of state schools and the school has a below average number of students taking the SATs each year inspite of haivng above average standard state test scores. Out of the 275 in his class only about 25 will apply out of state and about 1/2 of those to schools attached to their churches. A friend of Mike's, who he rates as the "smartest" kid in school, is going to the low ranked engineering program at an in state school. I asked his dad if they had considered some of the privates and was told that they had gotten ads from some based on his PSATs but they were too expensive to consider. He didn't have a clue that with his son's recs, scores and grades he was looking at merit as well as finacial aide. Mike doesn't know a single student that is applying outside of OR, WA, CA, or ID. this year. Last year one went to BC after being rejected at Harvard.

Tough times for kids who don't have help to look at options.

Mike's Dad

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Managing "your own apps" isn't nearly so hard as trying to find out what and why someone else (who is busy and cares less about your student than you do) is handling something about which you have many opinions and concerns.

Regardless of how you regard home schooling families, the college applications that they send in are exactly the form, the style, and the flavor of their own choosing. When all is said and done, they can truly say, "We did our best." I have no doubt in my mind that every parent that is reading this on College Confidential is capable of helping their daughter or son put together an application package that is better than the majority of high school guidance counselors would do. If you have a gifted, motivated, private counselor---that might be another story.

Most of us spend hours and hours on these boards learning about how to apply to college, read and discuss every available book on the subject---and then leave the job to someone else who, in most instances, has only a part time interest in college admissions and is nearly overwhelmed by the workload.

By Perry (Perry) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I would agree with Morgantruce, except I would be a bit more blunt. In public schools especially, I think you are asking for trouble if you rely too much on the guidance counselors or do not double check their supposed advice. There's little substitute for doing your own research by reading an array of books and articles, even scanning the college confidential boards. And yet, even doing these things falls short because few, if any, of us know precisely how these adcoms do their work behind closed doors and behind the facade public utterances that may turn out to be just as false as they are true.

I firmly believe that many of these colleges and universities see prospective applicants as a *commodity* of sorts that will either boost or detract from the prestige of their respective institutions. In other words, they are more or less seen as commerical acquisitions that will translate into greater fundraising opportunities for the school. Increase yield, increase stats, up the selectivity rate, be in demand, up level of prestige and visibility, raise more money, repeat the cycle. Prestige equals money. As a result, acceptancs and rejections become purely business decisions in a callous process that is part of the big business of higher education. The human element is left out..

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Is there something wrong with that?

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit

>> I firmly believe that many of these colleges and universities see prospective applicants as a *commodity* of sorts that will either boost or detract from the prestige of their respective institutions.

I cynical, but not THAT cynical!

I think that, by and large, the college admissions offices are very well-intentioned and do their best to discover the person behind the application.

As I see it, there are three problems:

The first is that, like much of the politically correct nonsense in higher education these days, some of the intentions are just plain wrong.

The second is that the admissions system is being crushed under the avalanche of applications.

The self-selection (where students tend to apply to good matches for them) in the process is gone. I mean, how many students on this board alone apply to Harvard/Yale/Princeton? You could practically Xerox the college lists.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Perry,
If your first paragraph was blunt, how would you categorize your second? I think you're hitting on things that many of us felt were true, but were hoping they were not! Let's at least be glad that a student "with a thirst for knowledge" still has what such schools think they need. The next thing coming down the pike that I find troubling is an abnormal interest in an applicant's celebrity status. In many cases, it doesn't require much to gain celebrity.

By Perry (Perry) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Yes, there's much wrong with it. I'd rather see 18 year old kids treated as such and not reduced to a business commodity for for-profit purposes.
Admittedly, my post above is a bit on the cynical side, but I think there's considerable truth to it.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Thedad, I just want to clarify that our guidance counselor in NO WAY manages my daughter's college application selection, process, or anything. We have done it all on our own. I am not complaining as I do not know how he could do all that for each child. I do feel sorry for kids with parents who for whatever reason, are unable or unwilling to help their child through this process. My daughter is constantly remarking to me that she feels the kids in school need my help on this. She has wanted the guidance and support through this process and knows others need it.

The only thing I was commenting on was that our guidance counselor truly knows my daughters very well. I feel that his narrative was personalized and could not have been more grateful. To Mike's dad, alot of what you are saying about your schools is not that that different here. Very few kids here apply to the top schools. It has been done before so I cannot say that nobody has but it is a very tiny number of kids. I know my D's guidance counselor is so proud of in the last few years how some of his kids have gone to Stanford or Brown. His walls are lined with pics of his charges. He is a great great guy who truly cares. That was more of what I was saying. But he has minimal knowledge on things like elite admissions. I know in meetings we have had, that I was filling him in on certain things. But he does care and he is willing to help or go out on a limb for my kids in a general sense. He did not do anything to manage their college process. What he did was to write a narrative and fill in the forms for each school that were his responsibility and to then have my daughter look everything over in the school package and fix anything not right and have her help get it all out. But none of this was what I would call guidance in the college process. It has been our job to do that. He even will state flat out that he will not suggest colleges to students. He wants them to come up with their own lists. We had a three way meeting with him and our daughter in early fall but it mostly was our telling him our plans and just having a great conversation about the whole thing. He has a lot of confidence in our kids. That is priceless. But no, we do not really have college advisors here at all.
Susan

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:49 pm: Edit

The "avalanche of applications" is caused by some students and parents who don't really know which schools are indeed the best match---but know that they want to go to one of "the best" ones. That causes a lot of work and grief. There are other reasons as well. Whoever coined the term "reach" should have toned it down several notches. Something is not right when everyone is reaching for the same thing. Few people seem to realize how much excellence exists "down the page" a bit, but remain fixated on "the best" schools. Using the EA or ED card on one of those schools with absurdly low admission rates is risky business for students who "like" the school but cannot show that they have a very strong liklihood of being chosen. That card could have been used at a college better matched to the student and much more of a sure thing than the "chance" too many students talk about.

I've spoken of this before, and certainly have no intent to cause any pain bringing it up again here in this thread.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Perry- I agree with you that schools look at the applicants and think commodity or in the lingo of this board "fit". What can this kid bring to our institution? I don't think that is cynical but realty. When we decide private school or public for our little kids we think what can each bring to my kid. When we elect a PTA president we think which one can bring the most to the position. When the kids look at colleges we think which school is the best fit for them. When we hire a new lawyer to our firm we think who will bring in the most billable hours? That's life. Why wouldn't the colleges look at all their qualified applicants and ask "Who will bring the most to our institution?" The kids might as well start learning this lesson now.

By Perry (Perry) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Interesteddad --

I am not completely cynical. It waxes and wanes. I agree that on the whole admission committees try to do their best. At the same time, however, the admissions game is big business and I think that this aspect of it should be kept in mind. The college marketing industry has done a magnificent job in convincing many of us that there are only a few institutions worth considering or attending. Nothing is more indicative of this marketing success than the many kids on this board who carry on that only the best and brightest go to the ivies. This is absolute nonsense. Even the adcoms of the ivies will tell you that they could readily replace their acceptances with many of the kids they rejected and not notice a difference. There are many colleges and universities with professors trained in the ivy league and in other top schools that offer excellent educations...

By Perry (Perry) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Momoffour---

My major complaint is the difference between what colleges say and what they do. In this regard, they behave like any other business that engages in spin or commercial advertising that does not necessarily match what they deliver. Kids go to college to receive an education, but they -- and in many cases we as parents -- are often blind to the business of their recruiting kids to be used to further certain institutional (business) goals. If kids and parents perhaps learned to see the application process in these different terms, they and we might be able to use it a bit more to the advantage of the consumer(us). There is clearly a dance that goes on between applicant and college, albeit the applicant usually does not understand the dynamics of it.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 04:13 pm: Edit

MT, I understand what you say about Reach schools and will disagree in some cases. It depends on what your other choices are. 2-4 of D's choices should be available no matter when she applies and none of us want to be tied down to ED, for while there's an icy precipitation's chance in Hades that she'll get significant aid, it's not flat out impossible from what I've read. Thus, for financial reasons she was never going to do ED anywhere. In that context, single-choice EA doesn't look so bad.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I don't get why the "avalanche of applications" is a bad thing. True, it adds costs to the process, since the more schools each kid applies to, the greater the total number of applications that need to be handled by each school. Sure, if your kid is dying to go to Wesleyan during the year that Wesleyan is "hot", and therefore, everyone and their brother applies to Wesleyan, it reducing your kid's chances of admission. But from the perspective of an individual kid-- other than incremental work and $65, why not?

I don't buy the notion that there's optimal "fit" out there, and your job as a parent is to track it down and singlemindedly grab it as the trophy.
As adults, we all know that life is full of trade-offs-- the most interesting job may involve a horrible commute; a boring job may pay really well; a company in trouble wants to hire you for a fantastic assignment but there's no long term security.... etc. that's life-- making trade-offs. You don't do your kid a favor by pretending that you can come up with a short list of "perfect fit schools", with the only differences being the degree of difficulty of admissions. Everything in life involves a trade-off-- Soozie's daughter may end up in a rural type school where she can ski and dance; TheDad's daughter may end up with a fantastic merit aid package at a great school (but not her first choice) which will allow her parents to retire before they're 120 years old, etc. An avalanche of applications is the natural result of that-- find a range of schools where your kid thinks they can be happy and productive, apply, and then wait to see what happens.
Truth is, as much as admissions is a crapshoot, predicting where a kid will be happy is an even bigger crapshoot. No sense walking away from the table while the dice are still rolling, if you know what I mean....

By Massdad (Massdad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

EA, ED, Reach, Ivy, Shees.

I sometimes think we've all come under a spell from the PR machines of various elite universities about what is "best". But, when you get right down to it, is this process any different than the purchase of any other consumer good? (flames, please). Perhaps I'm more cynical than Perry, but fact is that our perceptions of "quality" WRT the Ivy+ colleges is no accident. There's a tremendous amount of money behind the shaping of this perception within us.

To argue about quality differences among a wide range of institutions is rather meaningless, especially for undergraduates, because many of our quality perceptions are shaped by things that have little or nothing to do with undergraduate education. Things like graduate programs, star faculty and so forth. We are sold on these issues.

At any rate, now that my D's over the hump (and was out until 4 AM last night at the new movie), I'm personally looking forward to the next phase in this process. Yale was always my D's first choice, not mine.

Cheers, all. Holidays are approaching. What a wonderful family activity and bonding opportunity for the holidays - college applications!

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 05:16 pm: Edit

>> don't get why the "avalanche of applications" is a bad thing.

The avalance of applications is what allows the college to micro-engineer their incoming class:

"Hey Fred, you got your 3nd flute in the orchestra filled yet? I've got a dozen of 'em here to choose from if ya still need it."

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 05:23 pm: Edit

TheDad,
There's no fault in your logic with that plan---under those circmstances it made perfectly good sense. If Yale would have sent good news, you could have sat on it until you got a good look at the financial stuff and then decided where to go from there. Too bad Yale decided to play like Starkist tuna this year. ED is not a good choice for everyone, and the people that do use it need to choose very wisely.

I share your good feeling about Smith College and think that will be the happy ending (I should say beginning) of your daughter's college story. My wife graduated from a women's college, and I so like the way she turned out, I had no reservations about watching my daughter follow that path. That path, by the way, leads her home tomorrow morning for winter break---with #2 following a day later. Full nest coming soon to our neighorhood.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 05:35 pm: Edit

MassDad,
My first impression of "Ivy League" was a rather useless buckle on the back of a pair of pants.... giving away my age here. The impression has undergone numerous corrections, updates and reinforcements over many years. It's certainly not just a PR campaign, but they have handled that aspect in a way that would make any Fortune 500 company envious.

By Mauretania (Mauretania) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 05:51 pm: Edit

I haven't seen this mentioned here but in the past, on these boards, I remember reading students (having applied at more than one ivy/elite) were rejected/deferred from one or two but accepted at the third. This may be a small consolation to some of you but should give you hope.

From the other end of the spectrum (for those interested!) An update on my D:

K-State
Applied for Architecture School (specifying interior architecture) back in August. She was accepted to the University, in general but was told they wouldn't let her know about the Arch school acceptance until February.

University of Cincinnati
Applied to to the College of Design, Architecture, Art and Planning (DAAP)
(specifying fashion design)
Rejected from the college but accepted to Arts and Sciences College.
At least they gave a reason for the rejection:
low ACT score

As these are both state schools and only look at the numbers, we weren't too surprised and are pretty much expecting a reject from K-State in February.

Pratt Institute, Brooklyn, NY
Accepted - They telephoned her last week. She was told her packet will arrive in early January.
D attended Portfolio Day, here in TX, so she was able to do her portfolio review and interview with admissions, at that time.

Fashion Institute of Technology - SUNY
This school makes you jump through hoops. I told D (wryly) "You may as well have applied to Harvard." She did the initial paperwork, essay, recs, transcript which all had to be sent by her HS to the SUNY "clearing house" in Albany. Then
they send it on to FIT. They peruse it and decide if you're worthy to continue the process.
Well, I guess she was, as she got the letter, this week, saying "Okay, now you can come and see us." She has to follow detailed instructions for a "home test" bring that, and her porfolio for her scheduled interview and *then* take another drawing test, at the school, in February. My favourite part of the second "application" was:
"VERY IMPORTANT: Your ability to follow instructions will count as part of your portfolio evaluation." lol

Parsons School of Design, NY
She's still working on their home test. App, essays, slides of portfolio, transcript all have to be submitted at the same time. They have rolling admissions through March 1st, I believe.

She hasn't visited any of these schools but hopefully can combine visits to the three NY area schools in February. We've kind of done things backwards.

Over the holidays she'll be "home testing."

I know art schools aren't discussed here, much but if there are any "lurkers" interested, I can't stress enough how important it is to attend art classes during summer breaks. My D studied Architecture at the University of Texas - Austin last summer and general design/scupture, this past summer at the Rhode Island School of Design. It reinforced her decision to persue design as a major. Naturally this would not be important to students attending magnet high schools offering AP studio art etc.. but her school had a very small art department only teaching the basics.

Which brings me to: No, the school counsellor didn't help with any of this - we did it all ourselves, thanks to the internet and search engines.

By Perry (Perry) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Well, Massdad --

My daughter also will be finishing up her applications over the holidays as well as writing a fat paper and studying for finals that follow right after the "restful" break. Since she's applying RD, I suppose her applications will sit around collecting mold until the adcoms in these respective institutions decide to pick up her file, blow the dust off, give it a cursory read, and toss it in one pile or the other until the spring thaw.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Mauretania,
You really did do an incredible job weaving though that complicated process---it makes "ordinary" college applications seem like a snap!

I've heard many good things about Pratt and FIT, but probably just from being an east coast kinda guy. Best of luck with the remaining details.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 06:21 pm: Edit

I have no doubt in my mind that every parent that is reading this on College Confidential is capable of helping their daughter or son put together an application package that is better than the majority of high school guidance counselors would do.

I agree 100% with that statement. As you may know, I've been very critical about the role of GC in the application process. In MY perfect world, the colleges should not rely on them for more than sending the transcripts.

This is my last example. I decided to check on the status of a transcript due on February 1, 2004. I also dared to ask about one that was due last week. The GC's answer: "Oh, do not worry, I decided to wait and send the Mid-Year report in the same envelope as the School Report. Anyway, the school you are applying to doesn't read the apps until February!"

60 Minutes should do a story on those guys! "Yes, Mr. Wallace ... we screw up every once in a while but we love the kids so much, and we know what is better for them!"

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Mauretania...it is great to see you back here having communicated back and forth earlier in the process. Congrats to your daughter on Pratt! yay...she can sit pretty with this one in the bag! I cannot remember why she is not going for RISD. I had told you a while back that I know a local child at Pratt. She went initially for fashion design too I think but has switched to art education I think. Your daughter is doing a great job in all that she needs to do to apply to these places. Good luck...she is on the road to success.
Susan

By Sac (Sac) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Mauretania,
Congratulations on Pratt. Art portfolios are indeed a chore. And I agree with your completely about the need to take summer art classes -- especially ones that give information on how to prepare a portfolio. My daughter wouldn't have had a thing to submit to UCLA (where she applied directly to the art department) if she hadn't taken summer pre-college classes from the California College of ARts and Crafts. Her high school art teacher never even gave assignments.

By Mauretania (Mauretania) on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Morgantruce - I've read mixed reviews on Pratt and FIT such as some of the Pratt buildings are in need of major repair. Also, keep hearing "It's a bad area!" We'll find out when we go in Feb. It can't possibly be any worse than RISD (really beat up around the edges). My daughter didn't seem bothered by it. I think she is way more adaptable than me!

Susan - D didn't like the hills at RISD and could just imagine it would be worse during the winter. Also she didn't like the food. Since she's decided on Fashion, though, that means New York for contacts, jobs, internships etc.. I'm not worried about D changing her mind because she's happiest doing something related to design and could easily change direction. She keeps in touch with her friends from RISD and most are applying to much of the same schools. Since those friends are in the NE they've been giving D feedback on their visits to those schools, as well.

Sac - My daughter said that's exactly what happened to her - no assignments.

I have no idea how we'll pay for all this but I just couldn't tell my daughter "You can't go because we can't afford it."

Thank you, all, very much for the congrats (which I passed on to D)and kind words.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Postscript on college counselor vs. guidance counselor: sometimes the good guys win.

I had a meeting with the hs principal on another matter this morning. At the end, as other people were leaving, I asked if she had a couple of minutes...had she gotten a chance to read the e-mail I'd sent? She had and she'd already taken preliminary action. But the upshot is that she's turning my D's file over to the GC for a thorough review and if the GC finds anything amiss, we'll talk about where we go from here, including possibly submitting an amended School Report if the situation warrants. Considering how bureaucracies normally close ranks to protect their own, I feel completely vindicated and I'm getting the complete remedy (such as is possible) that I'd asked for.

I must say there was a postive effect of the Law of Unintended Consequences here: I've been involved enough the past three year that the principal knows me fairly well. I can be fairly blunt, brusque, and impolitic at times but I'm not a loose cannon and my assessment of some touchy political situations over the past couple of years has been pretty accurate...the younger me would not have appreciated the abilty to use a connection of this sort for unimpeded access.

===

Well, my D's Rejection from Yale isn't the most stunning Rejection at the hs. I'm appalled by Stanford, who rejected one of the school's top math/science student and who deferred another. Both these kids are absolutely terrific and would bring a lot to the campus and academic community.

I'm struck again by how my comments around the board hadn't been pessimistic enough.

By 2applying (2applying) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 09:58 am: Edit

Our daughter was accepted at Yale. Not really sure how this happened given the rest of the comments on this site. She is from an "under represented state" with 7 applicants and only one admit (her!). She has also studied (on full merit scholarship) at an international HS for this and last year. She thinks the visit to her school by a Yale dean may have helped her, as she did spend a lot of time with him. She has never had a chance to actually visit Yale and is still keeping in her apps at other schools(where she can qualify for merit awards).

Ironically, her college counselor had a son in an accident this fall leaving the students to do quite a bit on their own (or with his assistant who was more familar with the UK system). It was this situation that allowed her (and others) to greet and host the various American college deans and reps who came to visit the school.

But maybe it really is just chance. We never really saw her apps other than the essays that she sent us for comments.

I can't imagine how the month of April will feel (given that we do have another applying - but not to Yale - as well)!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 10:08 am: Edit

I want to congratulate your daughter on this huge accomplishment cause as you can see how difficult it was to be admitted at Yale this fall and she made it! She is likely one amazing girl! I have no idea how you are doing this with two kids though I know others with twins who have gone through it.

I find it interesting to hear that a Yale dean visited an underrepresented "state" where few kids apply to Yale. I also live in an underrepresented state where no adcoms from Ivies came to visit our school (though some were at a college fair in one city, not Yale though). That kind of connecting between schools and selective colleges here just does not exist. If you ever read the book, The Gatekeepers, you will see how adcoms visit and have ongoing rapports with certain prep schools or well known public schools. Certainly is not the case in our area, so I am really glad for your daughter's sake that they made the visit to her school. I am sure that someone like your daughter who must be a stand out had this one on one with a dean, it kept her fresh in his mind when the aplications were read. She obviously came across great in person. Be glad she had that opportunity as many do not get to meet any adcoms at Yale.

She must be very excited and I hope that whereever she ends up, she will be happy and same with your other child. Congratulations!!!!
Susan

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:31 am: Edit

Susan,
I go to one of those schools. My college counselor, who was briefly mentioned in The Gatekeepers, has a rapport with college admissions offices and has tons of college representatives coming in and it doesn't always help. This year, the Yale admissions officer who was familiar with our school and knew about its academic rigor and such was gone on maternity leave and the new admissions officer refused to return my college counselor's calls and e-mails to explain our school to him (as a result of my school's difficulty the grades of our applicants are slightly lower than usual). The result was that out of four Yale EA applicants 3 got deferred and the other didn't get in (I don't know if it was a deferral or a rejection). So it doesn't always help tremendously to go to these sort of schools. Although my college counselor will be calling his friend at Yale to see what he can do to get at least one of us undeferred. I think the biggest help my school has given me in the whole college process will really not be noticed until I actually get to college and realize how well-prepared I am for it.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:57 am: Edit

I hear ya Chasgoose and understand and appreciate your personal perspectives. Like anything, the advantage of your school's guidance department having ties with adcoms does not mean a guarantee or anything but it cannot hurt, is all I am saying. Just like in the Gatedkeepers, some really benefitted from that close rapport/linkage but obviously not all the kids from those high schools were admitted. For one thing you have a "college counselor" and we do not even have such a title at our high school. The person handling my Ds stuff to colleges also advises dropouts, kids with learning disabilities, behavior problems, and kids not going onto college, just as a point of reference (though we do love him). Already you mention that your counselor will be calling the adcom at Yale to see what he can do to get one of you guys un-deferred. If the usual adcom he deals with was at Yale at the moment, obviously this sort of thing cannot hurt but again is no guarantee so I get your point that it does not mean you guys get in. But at least you have that extra thing going for you that others do not. I can only say that when I read The Gatekeepers, this one aspect made my jaw drop as it opened my eyes to the wheelings and dealings between particular high schools and colleges. Another example was written up in the NYTimes over a year ago in a three part series that followed three high school seniors from NYC but from very diverse backgrounds for a year as they plowed through the college admissions process. I read the series only cause one of the kids chronicled is a friend of my youngest as she has gone to theater camp with him for years. This boy went to one of the most exclusive prep schools in Manhatten. In the series, it discusses all the calls his college advisor at school made and all the dealings with these various Ivy league schools. For instance, they would chat about which one of the many kids who applied to Yale was likely to attend if admitted and they discussed specific kids and on and on. This boy wanted to go to Yale. In the end, he went to Brown, as did his twin. But the whole scene written up is very very very foreign from what my child's experience in rural Vermont is like as an applicant to Yale and other selective colleges. No adcom visits our school, nor do they know of our school. I do not know anyone who has gone to Yale from our high school though last year the sal got waitlisted at Yale, not too bad. I know another boy from our community who went to Yale but he attended a local ski racing academy. There is nobody here who is in constant cantact with an adcom at Yale. My daughter has done this process all on her own with my guidance. Nobody led her through the process at school whatsoever. Her guidance counselor is very supportive of her and thinks the world of her. He is willing to call admissions offices, it is just that they will not know him, as they will know a rep from your high school, or the high school itself. Does that get you in? Of course not. But you cannot tell me it hurts to have this linkage that goes on between your school and these adcoms. In the Gatekeepers, the adcom was even familiar with some students at certain prep schools before they even applied.

I realize one thing that might be difficult for you that my D does not have is that there are several kids from your school applying to Yale. She is not up against anyone else from our school in this regard and can stand out on her own. In fact, as far as the other schools on her list, I think there is just one other applying to Penn, one other applying to Tufts, one to Smith, one to Conn College and that is it. That element that you have we do not, so stuff might balance out in that respect.

I know you are a fine fine candidate for Yale. Cause of that, you are sure to get into some selective schools. Yale's early decision on you is not a validation or whether or not you pass the muster. You likely do and so odds are that you will get into some place equally as great and maybe even Yale yet. I think that of my own child despite that you both come from very different high schools. Yale wants many types, so do not forget that. It is not talent contest where the most talented 1000 people win. They have more winners than they can handle so they pick and choose this diverse group of people to build a class and there is not a thing you can do about whether or not you fill the particular slot they are looking for. You can put together a wonderful application package, have the best credentials, do some things to address the deferral, and still not get in. It is a very difficult process to even think about cause not all of life works this way but elite admissions does. It reminds me of Broadway auditions something I am familiar with from my other child's experiences. You can have all the talent/goods for the part but you may have the wrong skin tone, or inches in height, or some such, and so everything else being equal as far as talent/qualifications, it can come down to something beyond ones control. Never an easy thing but if you go into the process realizing this from the start, you will be ok.

My fingers are crossed for you for some positive outcomes in April.
Susan

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Thanks Susan,

I don't want you to think that I am disappointed in my school's situation because I recognize that it is a lot better than others, I was just saying that the supposed connections only help so much and ultimately the burden of getting in is on the student his/herself.

I completely agree that whatever happens with Yale I will find some place great where I will love to attend. Actually, since I saved some of my applications until I heard from Yale because I had so much schoolwork to do, filling out the other schools' applications has gotten me excited to go to all of them and I could honestly say if I got rejected from all but one I would be happy to go to any one of my schools (although it still would hurt to get rejected everywhere except one place). I think that the same will be true for your daughter and everyone else on the collegeconfidential.com board. By October this will all be in the past and we can be at places that we are happy at and feel good about.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

A spotlight has shown upon the (real or imagined) advantage gained by elite counselors dealing with admissions officers. Isn't it up to the student (who does not have such a well-connected advisor) to contact the same admissions officers and establish a friendly and informative relationship in advance of sending in the application?

Might the parents and students that have the better-connected advisors be the first to warn, "Oh, you mustn't do that!" to the student with the un-connected advisor?

Excuse the paranoia.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Chasgoose, I like your attitude. I think my D is feeling the same way. Since she confirmed that no one else at her school got in EA at Yale, I think the pain has gone away. A good pep talk from her advisor helped, too. With the ability to recycle stuff from the 4 apps she's already completed, 5 more should not be that hard for her. But, It'll be hard for me - I have to proof each one....

Morgantruce, I can't get my D to even send an email asking a question. You think I could get her to establish rapport with the admissions officer??? And this is a kid who is not normally shy.

I have a theory that it is not the HS advisors who develop the rapport with adcoms, but rather the other way around. My thinking is that it is the adcoms that really gain from this - the ability to parse among applicants that appear to be the same on paper, hints regarding the handling of legacies etc. .....I just spoke to my D's advisor and essentially confirmed this hypothesis - the colleges drive and control the relationships with schools, not the advisors.

Any thoughts?

By Perry (Perry) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

"I have a theory that it is not the HS advisors who develop the rapport with adcoms, but rather the other way around."

I think it depends on the highschool. It's part of the job of high school counselors at elite private schools to cultivate close relationships with elite colleges and universities. That's part of what you supposedly get with the hefty tuition bill. And, in fact, as a NYT series explored last year, these behind the scenes relationships often produce results that can be scarcely matched by public high schools. With respect to public high schools, I do think the adcoms control the process from beginning to end, that is, if they even deign to consider kids from many of these schools.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Morgantruce, you have a point. I mean my own child wrote her regional adcom at all her colleges back in August to introduce herself, tell a little about herself briefly and to request an application. If the adcom came to the college fair in our state (some of hers did, some did not such as Yale), she met with each personally and followed up with letters afterwards. Only one adcom from any schools on her list actualy came to our school (Smith) and my daughter had the good fortune of being the only one who met with her and she had my daughter's intro. letter from August right in a folder she had with her and they talked a long time and my daughter followed that up with a letter. Same goes with interviews, etc. etc. So, yes, there are ways for kids to try to make a connection with admissions people (and of course professors and others). But this still is different than the connection of an adcom with the high schools counselors. These are just one more plus on top of the kid's own efforts. The wheeling and dealing I read in Gatekeepers and in the NYTimes series attest to alot of this going on with elite prep schools and colleges, and some well known public schools. And yes, as MassDad says, maybe it is the adcoms who intiate that rapport with certain high schools. But this rapport is worth something. For one thing, the adcoms learn more about that high school's programs so they can evaluate candidates in a context. They learn which of the candidates of the ones who applied (often many from a prep school apply to the same elite college, unlike here at our school where there is just one or two) are the ones who are the strongest and/or who might be more inclined to attend, and so forth. It simply cannot be denied that this goes on and can benefit some students. It does not guarantee anything as Chasgoose reminds us, but in some cases, it is helpful. And it is of a different nature than the kind of connection a kid can make on her own. This is another educator or counselor speaking of a student, not a student speaking of herself. A guidance counselor is going to give an opinion and put the kid in context. The student's own advocating for herself is important, sure, but you cannot deny that having a school representative go to bat for her with an adcom they know very well is not beneficial. I think your perspective of the kid making all the connections is very valid but also is derived in part from the fact that your girls were homeschooled so there was no other way to do this. I mean there is no other way for us here either but this kind of college adcoms :: high school counselors connection at some places is a big thing going on that is not the same across the board in every high school. I can think of my younger Ds best friend who lives in a suburb of New Haven and attends a very elite day school in that area whose family tells us all the time that their prep school is a "feeder school" for Yale. Such a concept in our community here is unheard of. That is what I mean. Again, this does not mean it should take the place of a kid making the effort on her own but this other stuff is not equal in every high school.

Susan

By Aisforadmission (Aisforadmission) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 02:01 am: Edit

By way of making parents feel better, in my experience even a good rapport with the guidance counselor didn't make much difference as far as admitting students. In fact, elite colleges bend over backwards to give breaks to students from big public schools where the counselors have a huge caseload. In those cases, elite colleges do not expect anything from the counselor, but they do rely on the student to express what is special about themselves so students shoudl take extra care to mention everything they do. In fact, many of my private clients are from the MOST elite private schools. It should hearten you to know that even the very top private school counselors still don't have time to devote hours to each student and don't have close relationships with adcoms. And even in rare cases when they have close relationships and "chat" about kids, the closest courtesy they will usually receive is to be told a few days early what decisions to expect so they can plan their Christmas vacation around the workload. Public counselors can have the same "priviledge" of a relationship simply by picking up the phone and introducing themselves to the regional admin. officer who is always happy to establish friendships with counselors. These relationships are professional in nature and rarely change admissions decisions! Students should note that they can also pick up the phone, email, or visit the rep either at the school, during a local visit or college night and advocate for themselves. I would NOT feel second rate in any way for going to a rural high school or a school with unsophisticated counselors. Colleges will bend over backwards to give you a fair read! take heart.

By 2applying (2applying) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 02:40 am: Edit

Just caught up with the discussion.
Sorry for the incorrect impression. We are from an "under represented state" but for this year and last our daughter has attended an international boarding school in Europe. That is where the Yale dean and many others have come to talk about their schools and interview students.
This was not something any of us considered when she was accepted to go to this school, but has been a nice bonus.

Her school is far from an "elite boarding school", and there are no tuition fees (hefty or otherwise) as most every student is there on merit. That may be part of the interest from different colleges, as well as the opportunity to meet a variety of overseas students who are already studying away from home.

By Sac (Sac) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 03:39 pm: Edit

The college counselor at my daughter's huge public high school was fantastic as an advisor and advocate for kids headed to every place from community college to Ivy League. In comparison, we haven't found the counselor at our son's small private high school especially useful -- certainly not as useful as the advice I've garnered on CC. The private school advisor did tell us that colleges expect private school kids to pretty much look perfect, while they cut some slack for public school kids who might have had fewer opportunities.

The main advantage I see in terms of college admission with a smaller high school is that my son had two teachers who really know him (one he had for two years, including in a class with only six kids) and, because we also know their attitudes toward him and their writing skills from written evaluations, he was able to make a really good choice of recommenders.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Aisfor admission, welcome to the Forum. I have learned so much from these kids and parents. It really gives on a personal view into many families' admissions journey.
I just posted on the Early Decision Strategy thread because the stress and frenzy caused by the early game really concerns me and seems to override the initial purpose of applying early. I feel that this single choice early admissions is a loser's game for all but very few people. It blocks the kids from applying to other EA schools (a gray area since rollings admissions is really a form of EA as are schools with early responces that don't call it EA). It does not differentiate kids who have committed to a school from those who are just playing the lottery. Yale, for instance, now has a bunch of kids who are accepted but are still candidated for other seats. It does not seem to benefit anyone except the kids who have applied early to the one school and is accepted. This in a climate when everyone is asking where you are going to college by the second week of December.
The other thing I want to mention is a survey done by Worth. They took 4 years worth of Face Books from HPY and tallied up the top 100 schools they freshman hail from. They came up with only 6 public schools, Scarsdale, Bronxville, Millburn, Jefferson (VA) and another school in NJ. When I perused athletic rosters of highly selective school, (my son is a college athlete at such a school), it is disproportionately peppered with prep schools. Knowing the top kids in the sport, I know most of them are from public schools. THose prep school are hardly the breeding ground for some of these sports and yet a standout there seems sure of a spot at an ivy.
To all of you second guessing or mulling about the college counseling situation for your child: there really is no way to predict the best scenerio for your child three years before the time you are in this process. The terrific counseling department at the prep school could be gone by the time your child reaches that stage. And it so depends on the person in the position more than the type of school. I have dealt with arrogant, untrustworthy types in privates schools and "light up your life" sorts in public. It really is the luck of the draw. And it also depends on what your child ends up being. I have a son in the bottom third of his class at a top ranked prep school. The school does not weight its classes-they are all pretty much top grade, they are stingy with A's, only 10% make honors, and the standards are very, very high as are the type of students who tend to go there. The average SAT1 is in the high 1300's. My son's peers from 8th grade all have much high GPAs from public and catholic schools and he was second in his class graduating from there. Did we make a mistake? It really does not matter as there is not a whole lot we can do now that he is a junior. I am just hoping he gets a 3.0 somehow. I think lower than that is going to kill his chances at a lot of the schools where he really should be a good candidate, given who he is. Most of you on this forum would not have been content to have allowed the handson process of some the private schools that many feel is overly intrusive. My son's school for instance, wants to examine everything sent to the colleges and wants to mail out the apps themselves, not permitting on-line apps. You get the benefit of a 35-1 ratio in counselors, but if you don't like the counselor or how he operates, that could be a problem. And I have seen it as a problem.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:18 pm: Edit

When s applied to his college, we had seen documentation on their website that they were interested in attracting students from "new" (to them) high schools. These schools are all looking for kids who are not the usual. Yes, feeder schools certainly exist, but unless you are in one of those very few I actually think students from high schools that are less known *but which clearly offer challenging coursework* have an advantage over those from typical suburban upper-middle-class districts in major metro areas (where all the parents work on Wall Street, etc., and the kids get summer trips to study the tortoises in the Galapagos.

I run into quite a few parents who put their kids in ritzy prep schools and discover that that "feeder" factor only works for a tiny, elite group of kids. I was at a dinner party a few years ago and the person next to me was visibly stunned that my humble, public-school son was at P when her kids, who came out of a famous, elite prep school, were at second-tier universities.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:23 pm: Edit

My senior daughter told me tonight....
She is in a weekend ski training program (in addition to the school varsity ski team), associated with a ski academy, and has been in it since age six (USSA racing). While she is a local kid in it, some of the kids in the weekend program are from out of state but have second homes here. So, I guess on the lifts today they were talking about college stuff. One of the kids she has skied with for years is from Milton, MA and goes to the prestigious Milton Academy. For starters, he is an A student (at a school where that does not come easy) and just got REJECTED from ED at Dartmouth, not deferred. Anyway, he told my daughter that "JUST FOUR" kids from his school got in early this year to Yale (my D must have related how she was just deferred at Yale). He said this was less then usual for his school. I thought I would share this cause I have not seen anyone post on these forums that so many kids this particular difficult year got into Yale early from their one high school. There are some kid posters on the other boards who go to some well known high schools. I dunno but the "just four" at Yale for this year sounded pretty darn good to me!

Susan

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 10:44 pm: Edit

To shed further light on the counselor-adcom relationship, I had a chat with my D's advisor, and got some more insight. She confirmed that it is the adcoms that initiate and control the relationship. She can, of course, get through to the regional rep for her HS, but so could we. Whether there is any "special" relationship or exchange of useful information is a separate issue.

She also said that one factor that works against developing a good rapport is high turnover among adcom staff. As we all know from the gatekeepers, no one but the director seems to stay around for long.

Regarding the Worth magazine article about feeder schools - it was interesting how bicoastal the list was, with a big hole for the central part of the US. I suspect factors that have nothing to do with school or student quality dominate those rankings.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

Soozie, playing off a discussion in the other thread, I also had no idea how popular Yale was going to be this year though I did cringe when it came out #1 in the damned USNWR rankings. The only change it would have made would to have made us more prepared for rejection. I wish all the students applying for the "wrong" reasons hadn't been doing do...but karma.

I just home that Smith figures out who my D is and appreciate the job I've done shilling for them this past year and take it into account.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

TheDad, here is the link to the US News rankings:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php
As you can see, Yale was 3. So that isn't the reason for the explosion in apps. Maybe people just like Yale!

By 2ivies (2ivies) on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 01:36 am: Edit

Yale was ranked as the number one school for academic experience by the Princeton Review. That could explain the explosion in apps.

About the same number of students from California got admitted to Yale as EA this year as last year.

By Momof3boys (Momof3boys) on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 11:26 am: Edit

S decided not to apply RD to Yale. He was accepted EA to his first choice, and he has indicated that he would like to attend there. Prior to his acceptance, S applied RD to two schools that had early-ish deadlines. He had 11 schools on his list but his at this point, S is not inclined to apply to any others. He has already thanked his references and notified them that he's done with the process.

After reading your insightful posts on CC (particularly the Parents Forum) I am hoping that S is not making his decision prematurely. S knows that the final decision is his (and he has clearly made that decision known).

Thoughts? Should-haves? Would-haves?

By 2ivies (2ivies) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 12:26 am: Edit

I had a daughter who was accepted to both MIT and Yale. After the campus preview weekend at MIT, she was 99.6% sure she would attend MIT. She was a little upset that I insisted that she attend the Yale campus preview weekend because she had no intention of attending Yale. After one day at the Yale preview weekend, she totally changed her mind. She is now a very happy sophmore at Yale.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 06:16 pm: Edit

A little Yale update:

My D's advisor spoke to the Yale admissions person who covers our HS to find out what's going on there this year. She was especially PO'd that Yale turned down 7 applicants from a strong pool (unlike Yale, Harvard accepted 7, for instance).

Anway, after the requisite preliminaries (very strong group, record number etc) they got into the issues. The Yale person insisted that, unlike other years, where no one moved from the ED deferred pool to RD accept, they only deferred kids who have some shot at RD acceptance. We'll see.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Thanks for posting that feedback. Whether or not it comes true, it is nice of you to share it.
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 07:48 pm: Edit

More grist for the mill. My D knows several kids at Harvard-Westlake, the very competitive school of THE GATEKEEPERS fame. Only two students got in EA...both legacies.

By Ellemenope (Ellemenope) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Massdad--does that mean that in past years, Yale deferred ED kids knowing that they had no chance at being accepted RD? Nice to know that today's deferred kids have "some shot" at an RD acceptance. A slim hope, but a hope nonetheless. . .

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Ellemenope,

That would be the implication. I think it's also well known that Harvard defers kids that have no hope in **** of getting in.

It was rather funny talking to the GC, as she essentially told the Yale guy that he sent the school a message, so watch how many apply next year. This is a HS that routinely sends a large number of kids on to top schools. Adcoms may not care what how we parents react to their actions, because they'll start with a fresh crop of parents (and their kids) the next year. GCs at the high schools don't turn over much, however, and the colleges ARE competing for talent from strong high schools. April will be interesting.

So, I think Yale has a bit of a pr problem with a number of high schools. I would not be surprised at all if you see a big drop in EA applications next year, unless they actually do accept a number of the deferrees. Our high schools actually pay close attention to this stuff, and they exchange notes.

Too bad for our kids they're caught up in the shift/experiment/mess.

BTW, you remember my past posts about how mild our Boston winters are? Disregard them. The high today was about 8 degrees. It sure was sunny, though.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:11 pm: Edit

I predict that the number of RD applications will be down for Yale this year because of the dismal turnout for EA.

By Eadad (Eadad) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:02 am: Edit

Perhaps the number of strong apps from states outside the Northeast increased and they (Yale)felt that these candidates were as strong or stronger than those from their "usual" schools and by admitting them EA they could achieve some additional geographic diversity as well.

We live in Texas had 2 of 2 admitted from our school early last year and 3 of 6 this year.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:21 am: Edit

Eadad,

Maybe, but a lot of the kids I've heard of getting in are from prep schools, like you. Maybe that's more what is happening - keeping true to Ivy preppy roots?

I've never had the sense that the elite colleges have any "usual" schools except for some well knowpn prep schools that probably have tons of legacies at them anyway. Also, there are so many texans applying to top schools that Texans, at least, don't offer much in the way of geographic diversity.

By Metz (Metz) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:26 am: Edit

Momoffour, I doubt it. Most Yale applicants probably don't start their apps at the last minute, and the decisions came only two weeks before the RD deadline. Most people probably were already in the middle of their application, and I doubt there are many who would just give up after seeing the results.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:27 am: Edit

Massdad....sounds cold but at my house, it was 22 BELOW zero (without the windchill factor) when we left for my daughter's ski race this morning. The high never went above zero. The high for a couple days has been in the negative numbers. I notice that later this coming week, the forecast here is for a high again of 5 below and a low of 22 below at night. Can't wait.....
sounds like you had a heat wave compared to this...lol.
Susan
(PS, hope you are right on admitting some of the deferrees from EA at Yale this spring. If they do not, it seems to make no sense why they bothered to break the ones not admitted into a deferral or rejection pile.)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 03:30 am: Edit

It was in the 70's here today. I mean temperature, not playing old Jim Croce and Bee Gees tunes.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 04:37 am: Edit

Soozie:

It appears that Harvard uses deferral to let applicants know that they are highly qualified and could have been admitted had Harvard not looked for specific characteristics in order to build a class. One could interpret this approach as being less harsh than outright rejection and of some comfort to excellent applicants who do not get in, or one could interpret it as providing false hope and keeping students from moving on with their lives. It looks to me that this year Yale was taken aback by the doubling of early applicants and did not quite know how to handle their numbers.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 10:48 am: Edit

Marite, I know what you mean. I have heard that reasoning particularly when schools make wait lists. It sort of sends a message that they were "good enough" to be admitted but not enough room.

However, in this case, while all that might be true again....there is a difference with Harvard and Yale's EA results this year. Harvard deferred the majority of the kids who they did not admit. They had a very low number of rejections...I cannot quote it but it was under 200 kids. Yale deferred 43% and rejected 39% so they handled it differently than Harvard did. They seem to have broken it into these two piles. Of course, a huge number of the deferred kids will never be admitted. I would like to think they would admit some of the deferees or it does seem weird to have broken them into these piles. I do get your point, however and in a way, at least getting deferred felt like, well, must be in the running or considered qualified. Frankly, the kids rejected that have posted here (or their parents) sound mighty qualified as well. It is just really tough at this level as we all know.
Susan

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 11:50 am: Edit

Soozie:

I'm just wondering whether the size of the two piles has to do with the doubling of early applications at Yale. Some students may have risked their chance because of the switch from ED to SCEA. If we take the 43% who were deferred, when April comes, it is possible that the actual numbers of accepted and rejected students will not depart significantly from other years. Just a thought.

By the way, I'm glad to know your accident was minor and that you are back to your usual speed.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Marite, I do agree with your analysis. This did make the deferral pile more in line with numbers of students in the past. And hopefully, some of the deferred will be admitted, like in the past. The main difference this year appears that cause of the increase of early apps to Yale, the early admit rate of 16% was so low/selective, that it barely was an advantage to apply early as it normally would be to Yale or any college Normally, the early rate to Yale is about 28%. Applying early this year had some advantage over RD but not a lot! Certainly not as much an increase in odds as applying early at many schools can be.
Susan

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Soozie,

There is one big problem with your odds analysis approach. I suspect that if someone were to look back at admissions data from most schools this year, they would find that the "early advantage" had gone away. The situation rather reminds me of the "January effect" in the stock market. Once its existance was published and talked about, the effect went away.

Adcoms read the same stuff we do (not to mention other professional analyses we don't) and IMHO have adjusted their behaviour in response to the publications as well as the negative press. This, as parents try to game the system. After all, wasn't the term "game" even in the book?

So, if you, or others, feel disappointment over not having "won" the game, I feel sorry for you but am not surprised.

I've had a repetitive discussion with my spouse. She's said, "maybe we should have applied early to XXX instead." My reply has been that her statement would be true only if our strategy was to maximize ivy admissions. But that was NOT our strategy. Our goal was to see if our D could get in early to her first choice. That's all.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Massdad, I totally agree that where the child applied early had nothing to do with gaming strategy. My own child considered applying early if she had a first choice, simply put. I was merely saying that when looking at data in the past, applying early increased the odds of admission rate. I have a chart that gives the admit rate for each school early vs. regular decision. She did not pick an early school from any comparative list at all. She just determined which school on her list was her favorite and chose to apply there early. I was only saying that the odds for the early rate was drastically different at Yale this year than in past years, and of course they did switch from ED to EA. She never picked Yale due to any rate. But clearly this year's early rate was not the odds enhancing rate as in the past or as other schools have. Even if we had known this would happen, she still would have picked Yale as a first choice cause it simply meets her criteria for a college. She would not have applied to some other school early cause of the odds, no.

You are right that looking back, the early advantage at Yale was inconsequential this year. But nobody knew that when applying. Just observing that but not saying it would have affected any choices made in regard to applications. I do not agree that the affect of increasing odds for early admissions at other schools "went away" after being published and talked about. It still increases one's odds to apply early at many schools if you have that school as a clear first choice. That may not have been the case at Yale this year, but it definitely is at many schools if you look at their admit rates for ED vs. RD. Remember that the change for Yale this year is not so much cause the early advantage was talked about and published as much as that they switched from ED to EA which changed the numbers.
Susan

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Massdad, sorry me again....in rereading your post just now, I am wondering....you said that your goal was seeing if your daughter could get into her first choice school, right? Why did she apply early instead of RD? She could have applied RD. The only reason I can see to apply early is that there usually is an increase in odds of admission if applying early to a college. The other advantage is simply finding out sooner of course. Why did you guys opt to go the early route?

I also want to clarify that in no way do I feel disappointed over not winning some game. I never assumed my D could get into Yale early in the first place. She loves the school and chose to go early at a first choice school. She knew, as well as we, that the odds of getting into such selective schools despite being qualified are very difficult and she assumed she would not be admitted due to the numbers being as they are. She went for it cause she is someone who fits the profile of someone who COULD get in, so it was reasonable to apply. But while she would like to be admitted, she is not devasted at all by being deferred as the difficult odds are a known factor so nobody in our family feels she lost the "game".

Susan

By Eadad (Eadad) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Massdad

My comment about "usual" schools stems from several other posts I've read where people from Phillips,Exeter,Milton and other prestigious Eastern prep schools were bemoaning the fact that their historic early admit rate at Yale had dramatically fallen off this year.

Yale held two area-wide admissions open houses in Dallas this year, one in the summer and one in late Sepember/early October. Both were in large venues and were packed to the point of overflowing. The majority of kids there were from public schools and from what I have been able to discern,this year's early admits were just about evenly split public/private. Last year, Yale admitted 26 students ED/RD from the Dallas/Ft.Worth metro area; 16 from public and 10 from private schools.

Yale said they were hoping to eliminate the game playing/strategic positioning that many students and schools had used in their previous ED mode. They also felt that SCEA could potentially increase both geographic and economic diversity, the latter by allowing students to compare financial aid offers and the former by not forcing students to commit to where they would be spending their next 4 years so early in their senior year. Their Dean of Admissions has been one of the most outspoken people in the country on this subject and the increased stress that it causes....his belief being that many kids change their minds in their senior year and November is too early to be forced to make that important a decision.

Kids from the south,west and southwest aren't completely sure what winter in New Haven is all about for example and Stanford,Pomona and others can look pretty good to some. EA allows them to visit New Haven or Cambridge in February and decide for themselves. My S had Yale as his first choice from the moment he set foot on campus and got a clear understanding of the residential college system. Weather was really not an issue, but for some kids it really can be a factor given a choice of a school they feel is equal in their minds.

I grew up in Ohio, attended college in Wisconsin and have been in Texas for 24 years. I have turned down job offers because I frankly don't want to deal with real winters again so I can somewhat understand where some kids are coming from although for an opportunity to attend a great school,4 years is no big deal in the scheme of life.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Susan,

I should clarify - D applied early to Yale because it appeared to be at the top of her list, and, if accepted, she would not have applied to as long a list as she did. I will say, though, that, had it been ED, she probably would not have applied, as she was not that sure.

Eadad, I can understand your point regarding some kids questioning a northern winter. I just don't see how a change from ED to EA affects this. Are you saying a kid outside the northeast would not apply ED because he was not sure about the winter? If so, the same kid could still apply RD, in order to have more time to think about it.

Oh, wait a minute....you mean that they'll try to increase their geographic diversity by taking all the out of town kids early, in order to give them more time to think about it?

BTW, of course the Yale folks would talk about geographic diversity when visiting your area. They are sales people. Yet, no analyis of Ivy admissions has ever actually shown any geographic advantage. So I'm having a tough time connecting these dots.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Well, Eadad, as you and I already talked about in another post, weather seems to be a big consideration for my southern calif. daughter. She says she will only look at northern schools if we can visit during winter months, which in her mind is whenever the temp dips below 50 degrees.

However, for some reason, she has Oregon and Washington state on her list of acceptable college locations --- this from a girl who spends rainy days in bed on the few days a year we get one.

By Eadad (Eadad) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 01:50 am: Edit

Massdad

The "Yale folks" did not talk about geographic diversity when visiting our area. The things I mentioned were from various articles about the new SCEA policy quoting Richard Shaw,Dean of Admissions, from the New York Times and Washington Post as well as articles in the Yale Daily News.

While there may not be as you called it a "geographic advantage" in admissions, I don't think anyone will argue that there can be a geographic disadvantage. The sheer number of applicants to Yale from New York,Massachusetts and California certainly works against applicants in those states because the schools are trying to build a diverse class.

Last year, a good friend who lives in Fairfax Va was told straight out by adcoms at her daughter's two top choices(Amherst and Bates) that her valedictorian/star athlete/great scores etc. daughter would have been admitted had she lived in another part of the country but the number of applicants from the mid-Atlantic states and the DC area in particular was so large that it made the decision process extremely difficult.

As to your comment about weather...under ED an admitted student is bound to attend. Many might never have experienced a New England winter. Given the news yesterday and today about -43 degrees in New Hampshire, how might a kid in Miami be thinking about his early decision to attend Dartmouth? I would bet there are a few out there who are second guessing themselves right now....sort of buyer's remorse....

Under EA they can visit in February and see for themselves if they can or can't handle the weather...this doesn't preclude the fact that they might love everything else that they have been able to learn and process about the school to make it their first choice, but with no real life frame of reference, they have to experience the weather to make a final decision.

I am not condoning this...as I said before I went to school in Wisconsin and KNOW what cold can be.

I was merely restating some of the things I read about Yale's position on the switch to SCEA and am not sure why you are being so condescending in your replies.

Carolyn

There are a number of boys in my son's class who won't even look at a school north of the mason-dixon line.....so I guess weather IS a concern for many others like your daughter in socal as well.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 07:47 am: Edit

Hey, and weather can have an opposite affect. Take my daughter. We live where it IS cold, lol. She is an avid ski racer, has been her entire life. She would not consider a school where she cannot continue to ski race so that really knocks out many parts of the country! And I can see it in reverse. All those things need to come into play when choosing colleges!

Oh, and Eadad..I agree that geographic diversity comes into play particularly with selective schools who care about having such a diverse make up of the class. That is why in elite admissions, you cannot keep analyzing why kid X got in and kid Y who is also fanatastic and has the stats, did not. They have too many fabulous kids to consider and then factors like where they are from and all sorts of other stuff can come into play. People around here will say, oh, your daughter has a chance cause she is coming from Vermont. Well, will just have to wait and see. Some kids have an advantage coming from a well known high school. Check for them. We do not have that. But check for us for coming from a place like VT and not NY. So, all these pros and cons balance out. Everyone has a fair chance to some degree and it is just what the school is looking for and whether the kid fits that or not.
Susan

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 09:25 am: Edit

Eadad:

"not sure why you are being so condescending in your replies." Condescending because I disagree? O, Sorry.

I DO get concerned when I hear what sounds like the standard marketing pablum being quoted by others. Ever since reading the Early Admissions Game (EAG), I've become highly cynical regarding anything these admissions offices say, and that included the stuff they leak to the Yale Daily News for their articles. After reading the EAG, one must assume that adcoms are either very naive and lacking a true understanding of what they are doing (Highly unlikely) OR they have deliberately mislead large numbers of parents and applicants. And, this is not true just about EA/ED. It is also true about legacies - Harvard says "second look" yet their admit rate is 4X non legacies. Some look.

Even your personal anecdote about the Fairfax kid is flatly inconsistent with what the elites say they do - they say they have no geographic quotas etc. So what is the truth? (BTW, more people live in Fairfax County than all of S. Dakota, so no wonder there are more applicants.)

So yes, I am quite cynical about the process, which is one driving factor behind my participation on these boards, to bring a voice counter to the elite pr machine. If that sounds condescending to you, I apologize - please don't take it personally. My target is the

By Eadad (Eadad) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 09:42 am: Edit

Susan

Thank you again for your insight.

We can make ourselves crazy trying to figure out the criteria used to fill a class. Just looking at the sheer number of incredible kids applying to the elite schools makes it obvious that there are going to be kids left out.

At an info session Yale held in Dallas during the summer the adcom (he was the rep from California)said it best:"just based on historical data, 9 out of 10 of you will not be accepted but that does not diminish the fact that you are incredible people with vast talent" he went on to implore parents to not punish themselves or their kids....that the people deferred and turned down was really the majority and there was nothing to be ashamed of.

I am not paraphrasing him well,but of all the sessions we attended locally and at the various campuses around the country,he was the most erudite,and without being condescending (like at our visit to Penn)he conveyed a message to those in the room that was positive but certainly was not acting as a salesman" as Massdad related earlier. In fact, I think a number of people left with a much clearer understanding of the difficulty of the process and that Yale might not be a realistic choice for everyone in the room.

We, along with a number of people we knew in the crowd walked away very impressed with his candor and with the way he gently and succinctly conveyed a sense of empathy for those who would be getting bad news and left them with dignity and hope. We never got this message this way anywhere else .

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 09:44 am: Edit

As long as we've digressed a bit to the topic of geographic advantage, I thought I'd share some highlights from an analysis I did of Harvard undergraduate enrollment. I compared the number of Harvard enrolless to the number of people 18-24 in each state. (easy data to get, and it allows for age mix differences among states.)

Taking the number of Harvard enrollees from a state, divided by the number of 18-24 year olds, in thousands, exressed as a percentage, (the true percentage, then, would be 1000X lower) one gets these results:

MA highest, at 173
DC, CT next, at 78, 76
Then NY, NJ, ME, NH around 50

At the bottom, in order, are MS, SD, SC, AR, LA, NC, all under 6.

In the upper middle are states like HI and AK (20s) , both of which have attendance rates above CA or VA.

At any rate, if there is a pattern, it is that the rate of attendance from Northeastern states is far higher, no great surprise, but after that, it is all over the map - OK kids are twice as likely to attend as AR kids, for instance.