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How do identical stats from a private school and public school compare?

Say two students, one from a suburban public school and one from an elite private school, both get 1490 on SAT's, 800 on SAT II, 700+ on 2 other SATII's, and identical recs/essays/ECs. Which student would be more likely to gain admittance to a high-level school?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 03:13 am: Edit

I think the public school student because if all other things are equal, the adcoms expect more from the private school student.

By Driver (Driver) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 09:41 am: Edit

Tough to generalize. Probably depends entirely on the reputation of the HS. On the one hand, they might expect more of the private school student. On the other, they might assume more grade inflation at the public school. If the latter assumption is made, then the expectation of "more" on the part of the private school student may have already been met.

By Momofsenior (Momofsenior) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 11:44 am: Edit

I am starting to question the relationships of private school counselors with adcoms. I thought those days were over, but I've recently heard of local private school students with less than stellar stats getting accepted to top schools. And why do the top private schools in NY have such a high percentage of kids in Ivies when many top public high schools are lucky if a handful are accepted? The NY Times series that inspired The Gatekeepers covered a college counselor at Collegiate in NY. He wasn't always successful (as shown in the article), but he did have quite a bit of influence.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

Momofsenior, I'm with you. I'm beginning to think the very same thing. I'm wondering why there is such a high percentage of kids in general from the East getting in to Ivies. I assumed at first that it was related to population density but I am not so sure anymore.

By Momofsenior (Momofsenior) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Lizschup -- It's really been bothering me. I have a friend whose son is not qualified for a top school and has been told by his private school counselor that he has a great shot at ED. He is either getting bad advice or something's fishy. Time will tell. You should see the percentage of kids who are accepted to Ivies at some of these private schools. Yes, the schools are self selective and many may be legacies and development admits, but the numbers don't add up. I guess that's why they're paying the big bucks! I am not willing (nor able) to spend over $200,000 to put my three kids through private school when they can get an excellent education in public school!

By Driver (Driver) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:30 pm: Edit

MOS--
I'm curious--in what way is your friend's son not qualified for a top school?

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

I could be wrong but I believe that 80% of the students at Ivies stem from a public school. Also, 80% of the highest SAT scores are from public school. I understand that the statistic is meaningless considering the number of public school students versus private school.

I went to private schools all my life but there is no doubt in my mind that the SAME student would have a BETTER chance to gain admission at an Ivy school after spending 12 years at a public school than at a private school, considering the easier schedules, easier material and rampant grade inflation.

By Driver (Driver) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Xiggi--
you are very bold. Deflector shields up! Prepare to don asbestos suit.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:26 pm: Edit

I thought that private kids and public kids all took the same AP exams at the end of the year! So Xiggi, the material is easier in the public sector?

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Xiggi;

Harvard's website states that the class of '07 is made up of 65% public school graduates and 35% private schools graduates (including graduates of parochial schools). It is possible that other Ivies have different percentages, but unlikely that they would differ from Harvard's by as much as 15%. And considering the pool of private vs. public school graduates, 35% is rather high.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

There are many different public schools and many different private schools. My son and nephew graduated from a private schools that did not send as many kids to highly selective colleges as the public schools in the area. For my son that was actually an advantage, because his college counselor could go "full court press" with him whereas my neighbor's daughter who was not accepted to any of the ivies was competing with over 100 other applications from her school. 40 kids applied to Brown alone that year from that school and about 4 got in, 2 non hooked applicants, the others were a URM athlete and legacy. I'm not sure what the counselors could say about 40 kids all needing a reference from her and looking to diffentiate because though I have seen schools like Brown accept a lot of kids from one school, everyone knew 40 was not going to happen. My son was the only one applying from his school and though he was not as "good" academically (grades and scores) as my neighbor's daughter or for that matter most of those applicants from her school, he got in.

The highly selective private highschool where my other son goes, has a phenomonal rate of getting kids into top schools, and some of that is the relationship with the colleges and counselors, but a lot of it is that the counselors have only 30 kids to help through the process--there are 3 of them and a very informed and helpful secretary, and they do only college placement work--there is another counseling department for problems in the school.However, the kids are prechosen, in that they already went through a 20% or less selection process to get into the school. They are also already a group of "hooked" kids, in that many are children of legacies and have talents that got them into the school to begin with. When I went through their college book, available to kids and parents of that school, I could only marvel at the wealth of info there. Try getting that kind of data from a public school or most other kinds of private schools. My other son's school won't even break down how many kids got into which schools over a period of years. It's hard to get any kind of college list from the public highschool. My neighbor just got a list of the schools most of the kids have gone to in the last 5 years with no breakdowns which is just a blanket list of college names to me, totally useless. The web site of my younger son's school has a section where there is a list of colleges with the number of kids going there in the last 4 years. This is updated each year, so you can see where most of the students end up. Though impressive, there are also a fair number of non selective schools on the list. I have the actual lists by name of who ended up where from the graduation material that was passed out each year, and "the book" gives me even more info since it breaks down each applicant to each school with SAT score, grades, course load (all difficult, the school only has the heaviest course load but it does give detail about whether a 4th year of language was taken , or 5th year of math and science or a specialty English), ECs, talents, legacy status, URM status, etc. Just the names are deleted. With informed and willing counselor and secretary, the kids at this school are lacking little to complete there college apps. Not to mention that their parents are heavily involved as well.

It makes sense that more kids come from public school at any school, because more kids are in public school than private school. There are also some very fine magnet or specialty school that have phenomonal track records in getting kids into the top colleges.
However, it really does depend on the child which school, if any, gives him any advantage. My son would not have fared as well at his brother's prep school. The lenient grading and noncompetitive student body, plentiful AP offerings, sports opportunity and guidance counselor who had few ivy applicants from his catholic school all worked to his favor. He was in the top 10% of that class, he would have been in the bottom 30% of a difficult prep school or competitive high school. And he would never been permitted into our district's heavily gatekeeped AP courses. When I read posts about kids who can take only 2 AP courses because of the way their school is structured, I really shake my head. All of my kids took at least 7 AP courses. There were no restriction, no scheduling issues, no problems. The one in the prep school now really takes no AP courses because none are offered, but nearly everyone in advanced bio takes the AP exam and he has already taken 3 exams. Since the courses are not coded AP, there is no expectation to show low scores, he can pick and choose which ones he cares to show. Many of the courses are taught with the AP program in mind, just not labeled as such. It gives the kids more flexibility.

When my friends ask me about private school, I always tell them that the "best" school is not always the best for their child and that more important than just assessing a school is matching a child and family with the school.

By Momofsenior (Momofsenior) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Driver -- He is a good student but nothing special. This should be a major reach for him. The biggest area he is lacking in is SATs. Scores for SAT 1 - One is at the low end of the 50% range, one is in the middle. SAT 2s - high 500, 600s, no 700s. He has some APs, toughest classes available in some areas but not in all, mostly As but a few Bs, no rank. I'm not sure about ECs.

Xiggi -- Quite a generalization! Have you talked to any honors students at good public high schools lately?

I agree with many of Jamimom's points. I do believe that each student should be treated individually and there is a huge variation among private and public schools. My kids' high school happens to make a list each year by college of all applicants with their SAT 1 and 2 scores, ACT, GPA and result (accept, reject, wait list).

I'd love to get Jacques Steinberg, the author of The Gatekeepers, to shadow a college counselor at Horace Mann in NYC. That would be an interesting read!

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Money...
My guess is there are more applicants to the top colleges from private schools, because more students from private schools can afford the top colleges. Therefore, more applicants from this group will result in more acceptances.

I realize some colleges say they have "need blind" admissions, but many do not. If you are poor enough, there may be aid available. However,at least at my sons' middle-class suburban public HS, many families do not even attempt the high-priced select colleges, because their EFC scares them from doing so. Often when a few are admitted, they decide they cannot afford it anyway, and do not attend. As a result, pushing for select schools has never been a high priority for the counselors at this school.

I've heard that at my d's. private HS, other games are played. They push their students to apply to numerous colleges, so that they can claim their graduating class was offered "x" dollars in scholarships. The higher the "x", the more they can brag that it was their education that enabled these students to achieve so much. It is almost a race between local private schools to see how high "x" can go.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Xiggi -- Quite a generalization! Have you talked to any honors students at good public high schools lately?

Momofsenior, I have many friends who attend public HS and we talk all the time! Do you know how many kids leave super-selective private schools to attend public schools after 9th or 10th grade? They usually end up in the top 1-5% of their new HS and that ranking alone helps them for college admissions.

And my comments were NOT a slight against punlic HS schools. Did I not comment about the 80% of high SAT being scored by public schools' students? If may be different where you live, but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of public schools in Texas and New mexico have more accomodating schedules and easier classes. I compete in sports and all my friends who attend public schools train DURING their class hours. Our schools arranges practices at 6am or after 6pm and never gives a break to varsity players. My friends at public schools get special classes and outside assignments to boost their grades during sports season.

I thought that private kids and public kids all took the same AP exams at the end of the year! So Xiggi, the material is easier in the public sector?

Why do you mention AP exams? I commented about easier classes and more accomodating schedules. Are you assuming that a tougher schedule and tougher classes is a better preparation for AP exams? There are schools that FOCUS their junior and senior classes towards AP preparation and there are others schools that teach a program that completely ignores the curriculum of the AP exams.

Anyway the question was about which system would be better for college admissions. It was not about evaluating the strength of their curriculum. I still say that a gifted student who is Ivy League material would have an easier time to shine at a school like El Paso High and more time to prepare for college and that the colleges would look more positively at his/hers accomplishments.

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

I suspect you are right about Texas public schools from what I read. But in the Boston area, the better school districts have high schools that are every bit as good as the best private ones. I have not heard about students switching from private to public schools around here. Every couple of years or so, a local magazine publishes the average SAT scores of both private and public schools in our area. The top public high schools post SATs that are comparable to the top private schools save one or two.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 07:01 pm: Edit

I am not a math person but I am guessing that if 35% of Harvard comes from private school that would mean a greater percent of acceptance if you come from a private school. I am thinking of the TOTAL number of private school students vs. public school students. Private school students chances for acceptance would be higher. Does that make any sense?

By Me1 (Me1) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 09:38 pm: Edit

I'm in a public school (AP classes), & I always end up helping my friend in a private school IB program w/homework. My school was rated as the 2nd most challenging public school in the state in some survey (although ratings can be flawed, it's somewhere up there). One thing is that my school requires everyone in an AP class to take the exam. Therefore, teachers cannot water down the courses, as everyone is accountable fot the material. On the other hand, at some other public schools I know of, no one takes the exams, & they just label the classes AP. I know one girl who transferred to my school who was in the top 5 @ her private school, & isn't even in the top 10% here. I'm not arguing that some private schools like prep. schools are not very hard, but just because a school is public does not mean it is necessarily easy.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Of course private school kids get into the ivies at a higher rate than public school kids. And that statistic is of no value whatsoever. Consider:

- Affinity for the ivies is a regional thing. As a midwesterner, I can tell you that folks in other parts of the country just do not care as much as us New Englanders (or participants in this discussion) do. The same holds for the south, west etc.

- There is a higher concentration of prep schools in BosWash than elsewhere.

- Prep schools are highly selective - the better ones around here have admit rates on the order of Harvard.

- Prep schools are "stuffed" (maybe replete is better?) with legacies and development candidates.

So, is it any wonder that there's a good chunk of prep school kids in the ivies? I would argue that the prep schools are actually underrepresented. It's really more fair to compare prep schools to the top part (decile? quartile?) of a public school. They just don't have the kids in the lower portions of the grade curve. So, suddenly, the 4-5 Harvard admits from a prep school senior class of 100 does not look so hot compared to 5-6 Harvard admits from a public school senior class of 400. Not when the prep school already skimmed the cream for itself.

Regarding adcoms: I've said before, if we on this board can discuss the prep school advantage, so can adcoms. Yes, the bar is higher. EVERY "true stories from the adcom" type book has mentioned this point.

I can add two datapoints to this. In a personal discussion with an admissions director, I was told that they respect performance from public school kids more than from prep school kids because they know the pub kid had to have motivation from within (within the family, at least), where the preps are not allowed to slide.

A study at Princeton a few years ago compared the performance at Princeton of preps versus publics. Preps did better first year, pubs the following years. The conclusion was that the preps are better prepared, but pubs have better self study skills.

FINALLY, anyone remember the WSJ article about 3 years ago that discussed the misleading stats prep schools put out, to make it appear that their acceptance rate is better than it is? For instance, they will report numbers for a 5 year period; they will talk about acceptances, not matriculations, so one kid can get into 5 ivies and that counts 5 times.

Now for the other side:

Not many public school kids get private meetings with the admissions directors. Prep school kids do. Prep school kids get their own orientation sessions and tours at some campuses. Prep school kids are more likely to get interviews (see my BC comment of a few weeks ago). The adcoms are more likely to visit the prep schools. The head of Harvard admissions spoke at Park School (privat K-9) last year. I don't think she spoke at any public schools.

Why is all this done? Care and feeding of legacies? I don't know.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit

"A study at Princeton a few years ago compared the performance at Princeton of preps versus publics. Preps did better first year, pubs the following years. The conclusion was that the preps are better prepared, but pubs have better self study skills."

Interesting. Haven't seen this study, but I do know that in the required introductory writing course at Princeton, they deliberately level the playing field by weighting the grades so that the ones at the end of the semester count more than the ones at the start. Evidently the private school students come in with more writing experience and expertise, but the public school kids quickly come up to speed.

I will say that I understand why many parents start looking at private school during the middle school years. Middle school in our state is an abomination. The buildings look like prisons. Worse, the educational establishment has bought into a philosophy that amounts to "their hormones are raging; don't overtax them with studying." This may change because of a big brouhaha over test scores, but what they'll do to try to raise those will probably not be what I consider educational -- loads of worksheets, I'm guessing.

By Momcat (Momcat) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:07 am: Edit

"Our schools arranges practices at 6am or after 6pm and never gives a break to varsity players. My friends at public schools get special classes and outside assignments to boost their grades during sports season."

That's amazing. In all the years my S has been playing public h.s. sports, the only sport I know of that the students have had to miss actual class time for is golf, and that is for tournaments, not practice. The rules that dictate practice schedules are pretty strictly set on a state level, at least here in Illinois. Practices are before or after school, never during.
I'm not sure what you mean by "special classes" or "outside assignments." With our district's budget problems, we're lucky they get the classes they're supposed to have, let alone anything extra or special.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:17 am: Edit

Just responding to a couple of posts, not necessarily the original topic in question...


Momofsenior...I remember that series of articles in the NYTimes really well. While I do not normally read that paper, we bought it for the series cause the boy they followed from Collegiate is a friend of my currently 15 year old daughter. She has gone to theater camp with him for many summers. As you know he is now at Brown (as is his twin). But the thing that struck me the most in that series was the actions of his college counselor at Collegiate. It really did blow me away the amount of contact that person had with adcoms...the ongoing relationship, and so on. I later read the Gatekeepers where that exact same phenomenom at top prep schools like Harvard-Westlake also was prevalent. All I could think of was......so NOT like our rural school here in VT!

Xiggi....I understand where you are coming from in your perspective on public schools but it is merely from your own experience with the schools in your area and cannot be generalized about all public schools. The topic of grade inflation in public schools may be valid in some places but it is a gross generalization. For instance, even on some of the student forums, I often read assumptions that getting straight As in public school is not too hard to accomplish. I can only speak from my experience (just like you did validly from yours in Texas)...but while my senior has had straight As every single marking period in high school in the most demanding courses, it is definitely very rare here to get all As. A couple kids accomplish it in any given marking period at most. It takes very hard work to achieve that here. As far as the work being easy, all I can say is that the hardest classes in our school are quite demanding. My daughter has a MINIMUM Of four hours of work per weeknight and easily ten hours on weekends. Some of this is cause of the heavy demands in her classes and some cause she does not cut corners and is motivated to achieve. Unlike what I read on the kids' forums here, much of my kids' work is not textbooks and quizzes....rather it is heavy reading and analytical writing...mucho writing. As far as accommodations for sports....I have never ever heard of what you described where you live. One of my kids is in three varsity sports. She does many other ECs besides those in fact. Both of my high schoolers often do not get home til 8:30 or 9:30 every night and have ECs all day Saturday and actually on Sundays in certain seasons. Then they have many hours of homework per night (not even counting instrument practice). There are no breaks for kids in our school who are in heavily committed ECs. In fact, one thing that continues to impress me locally is that often the kids who are at the top of the class are the ones who have the heaviest EC committments...meaning less time free to do homework but good at time management and just very motivated.

I do not believe if my kid who goes to this public school and is ranked first in the class, would be at the bottom of a class in a private school. Her work ethic would not put her at the bottom. Rather what I think would happen is that there would be more kids LIKE her in a private school. She may not stand out AS much but she would still be a high achiever in that setting. While the student population in the private school would differ from our public school, it would not differ that greatly from the subset of students in our school who are in the hardest classes. It is just that the majority of the student body in a selective private school would be akin to this top grouping within our public school.


As far as whether attending public or private high schools is an advantage to getting into selective colleges....I think others on this thread have already made some good points. There are plusses and minusses on both ends. On the private end...there is great preparation, a challenging student body, counselors on staff well versed on elite college admissions and ongoing rapport or reputation between these feeder prep schools and the top colleges. On the other hand, some would say a kid coming from a well known private school might have a disadvantage cause elite college X is only going to take just so many kids from any one prep school and the majority of kids from that school are all applying to the same selective colleges, so in essence are somewhat competing against one another for who from that prep school will be admitted to elite college X. But of course, SOME will be admitted cause elite schools do take kids from these "feeder" preps. On the other hand, a kid from some unknown public school might be the only kid from their high school applying to elite college X and that college does want kids like that overall and that kid is not up against numerous other kids from his/her high school applying. Then again, elite college X may never have heard of this high school and that could be a disadvantage. However, elite schools do want all types and kids from all over. They do not want to fill their class with all Exeter and Andover kids (though surely many get in). In some ways, a kid might look better coming out of unknown public school than just being another of many Exeter applicants. Actually my daughter's alumni interviewer for an Ivy league school stated that the acceptance rate from our rural state is higher in general than the overall acceptance rate at said college. Take it for what it is worth. In any case, just remember that what you see at your local public differs widely from some other schools.

Susan

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 09:56 am: Edit

Aparent:

Middle school in the US is "an abomination," not confined to a single state or even public vs. private. In other countries, 6th grade is when students are expected to speed up. In the US, in the name of consideration for their physiological changes, things slow down academically (as if non-Americans did not go through the same changes). A lot of the curriculum is just review. When I went into 6th grade, I was expected to learn English plus Latin. In 8th grade, I began Greek as well. Students who were not in the classics track took up another modern language in 8th grade. We all learned algebra in 8th grade (40+ years ago). We all learned trigonometry. In the US, it's only now that algebra is being required in 8th grade, and not everywhere at that. If we look at international comparisons, US students do well through 4th grade then slip in 8th grade. Granted, a lot more students are held back or drop out in other countries, but for students who are capable, the curriculum is more appropriate.

By Driver (Driver) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit

I agree with Susan that regional differences are such that generalizing about this issue is very difficult. I also think that there are huge differences among private schools.

This thread piqued my curiosity, so I went to the Deerfield Academy site to see their matriculation numbers (I only picked DA because I've actually driven by it--have never seen Andover, Exeter, Choate, etc., even from a distance). The numbers really are staggeringly impressive. They show a five-year listing (as do most all private schools--it actually makes for a more representative view than just showing what happened last year), and they list both acceptances (interesting, but not all that helpful) and actual matriculations, side by side. 34% of their graduates over the last 5 years matriculated to Ivies. Add to this a few super-selective schools (all under 30% acceptance rate): Amherst, Williams, Stanford, Bowdoin, Duke, Georgetown, Middlebury, Wesleyan, and you get 56% matriculating to some of the most selective schools in the country. That's nearly twice the number for our daughter's private day school, which I've always thought (and still do) has a great record.

Where I live ("Main Line" suburbs of Philadelphia) we have around a dozen first rate private day schools, and around 45% of students in our area go to them, rather than our highly-touted public schools. Yes, there are a lot of well-to-do people here. Nevertheless, many of our public school teachers send their kids to the privates because of the academic ethos and discipline. By the same token, more than a few private school teachers and administrators take their kids out of private school and put them in the local public school because they're spinning their wheels, working hard and yet unable to break the "3.0 GPA ceiling," even in standard courses. In every case I know of, they do better in public school, grade-wise. Also, in our private schools, admissions to honors courses are strictly limited by faculty committee review, and students and parents must sign a statement promising that they will not seek the help of outside tutors to enable them to keep up with an honors class. I know for a fact that almost anyone can opt into an honors course in our public schools, and there is a thriving cottage industry of private tutors that help them get through it.

Our college counselors are very effective and hardworking, but I know where they went to college and don't know of any connection to the most sought-after schools. They do make follow up phone calls, and know who to talk to, but to the extent that these calls are effective, it is due to the fact that they are reliable in their recommendations to the colleges, and have a proven track record of being straight shooters when they say that so-and-so is the one of the best we've ever had, or whatever.

In addition, our school keeps a five-year acceptance file (anonymous) showing the stats for people who have been accepted to specific colleges, including legacy, athlete, performer, URM. There's no question that the legacies did well--I'm certain that it helped them because it was so consistent across the board--but they also had the stats to go where they went.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 03:38 pm: Edit

"Also, in our private schools, admissions to honors courses are strictly limited by faculty committee review, and students and parents must sign a statement promising that they will not seek the help of outside tutors to enable them to keep up with an honors class. I know for a fact that almost anyone can opt into an honors course in our public schools, and there is a thriving cottage industry of private tutors that help them get through it."

I am very ambivalent about the gatekeeping poliy for Honors and AP courses. It's easy teaching bright, motivated kids. The harder task is raising the achievement of average or below average kids. True, unprepared kids can slow down a class, but I believe that if they are motivated enough to sign up for a class, and if support--whether within school or through private tutors--is provided, then all kids should be encouraged to take the hardest courses, not just the bright ones who are assured of doing well and doing their private school proud.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Driver....everything you wrote is very interesting, and likely what I thought to be the case. Where we live (which is nothing like where you live...I know your area), there is either public school or a ski academy (very specific niche) for school. Otherwise private means going away to boarding school which is something I never wanted my children to do. However, some families here have gone that route. In fact, I know a peer my kids grew up with who is at Deerfield now. Most of these parents seemed motivated to opt for prep school based on "getting a better education and getting into great colleges". It is my belief that the kid is the one who gets into college and if they are meant to be admitted, they will be, no matter which high school they attended. In some ways, as I mentioned before, they might have better odds coming from a rural school being the only applicant to X college, rather one of 50 kids from their prep school applying to that same college. As far as a better education.....I can see it some, and some not. I think my daughter would have loved prep school and it would have met her learning needs really well. By the same token, I think she has been challenged here at home and has taken her learning far, mostly cause of the kind of student she is. I particularly like that she is around diverse kids, not all prep school kids. Also growing up at home is important to me. Actually at Deerfield, this boy had to make a choice between theater/sports/music...all of which he excelled at here. He gave up sax to do the school plays. Here he could have done all three, as my daughter has. So, there are pros and cons. I cannot see picking a high school with the notion of "to get my child into a good college". I still think the kid will get in if it is meant to be, regardless of his/her high school name. Coincidentally, related to this topic, I noticed in the guidance counselor's narrative report regarding my daughter sent to colleges, that he chose to remark about how this kid could have gone to an elite boarding school but did not choose that route (for some reason he brought this up....I am guessing cause he has observed some other top students being sent away and ours were not).

Marite, I second what you said about middle school. Just in our school district, it is the low point in the system. My kids went to a top rate elementary school that garnered national awards and really met individual needs. The middle school then lumped everyone together, with no differentiation and just let's say NOBODY thinks much of the middle school here. While the high school is nothing to totally write home about, at least there are various levels of coursework, the top ones being truly challenging and there is something to be said for a small school. Also the music program is tops (won a Grammy Award in fact) and that is good in my case as I have two kids into music. Basically, middle school was the worst part of their education, though we had many accomodations made such as independent studies and going into the high school to take classes....it took a lot of advocating to make it happen. I feel good that kids who followed my kids have benefitted from inroads we made there. Still, I do not miss the middle school one iota!
Susan

By Driver (Driver) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Marite said:
"True, unprepared kids can slow down a class, but I believe that if they are motivated enough to sign up for a class, and if support--whether within school or through private tutors--is provided, then all kids should be encouraged to take the hardest courses, not just the bright ones who are assured of doing well and doing their private school proud."

The main reason I would disagree with this statement is the issue of "motivation." First, a motivated student will not be unprepared. If they are making every effort, and yet still unable to keep up on an honors track, they should take the standard course, which in good school will still be excellent, and at the appropriate level. Very talented students often lose their motivation in classes where they are not challenged...hence the need for honors programs...and in our particular case, for private schools.

The problem is that in too many cases, in both public and private schools, the "motivation" is the parents' desire that their children have the "honors" credential on their transcript, rather than being the student's own desire to be challenged to his/her level of ability and interest. In our private school, this is where the "no private tutors" in honors courses came from. There are plenty of office hours opportunities for support within the school, peer tutors, study groups, etc. But when a student can't keep up, even with this support system, they do begin to ruin the purpose of the honors class. And the parents who pushed the child into the program often complain to the administration that the course work is too hard, they shouldn't be pressuring the kids so hard....when they could have all that by taking standard math or whatever. The pressure is coming from these parents, in most cases, not the student. It infuriates me when these credential-crazed parents push honors courses on their kids and then demand that the workload be eased so they can gain what would be essentially a phony credential, while at the same time diminishing the experience for the kids who are ready for it. It doesn't happen in our private school, but it is common in our public schools.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Well I'm one of those parents "pressuring" the student, and about ready to sign her up for tutoring! Why? Her standardized test scores were great, her gradeschool teachers all thought she had great potential, and she consistantly did well, and loved science, humanities and arts. She was active, outgoing and involved.

When she hit highschool, something happened. We sensed a poor self-image was starting, so we made the decision (based on HER preference), to send her to a select private girls school. (My son went to the local public high school, and has excelled. We knew she did not want to follow in his shadow, and were hoping her own place would be best for her). It seems to have back-fired. She discovered she was no longer in the "smart group" -- they're all smart! She is limited in many EC's because they only take the best of the best (drama, music, academic teams, etc.). She's started to shut down, rather than rise to the challenge. She even started quitting rather than continuing her EC's. She has said more than once...she's "dumb", and possibly won't even make it to college.

Some of her teachers are confused as well. They know she has the potential, yet she now does poorly on tests. But they cannot take the time to help, because they need to move on.

I find it hard to sit by and just wait. I (and others) think she does have the potential, and should be in honors level courses. We have even suggested that perhaps she should move down to College Prep in some courses, and they have advised against it. But falling further behind is not the answer either -- so we're looking at tutors, to hopefully get her through the "slump".

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Driver:

One cannot use the private school experience to judge what public school students can or cannot do. Private schools take in the best prepared students and give them the support they need. In return for paying private school tuition, the students should not have to pay extra for tutors, or depend on their parents for extra help. Private schools such as Deerfield play it safe.
Such is not the case with public schools.
In my experience, elementary schools even within the same district vary widely in quality; whatever motivation students have, their level of preparation also varies depending on the schools they've been attending, not to mention parental income or English fluency. In our district, some schools offer Algebra 1 in 8th grade, others do not. The playing field is just not level. But that says little about students' aptitude or motivation.
The problem with tracking students into Honors and non-Honors classes in 9th grade or even earlier is that it sets students up for the rest of their school career. A student who has not taken Honors Algebra will most likely not make it into AP-Calculus. I do believe that with some extra support, many more students are capable of doing honors and AP classes. I see nothing wrong with making this support available to students. Private tutors are a lot cheaper than private schools.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:04 pm: Edit

"That's amazing. In all the years my S has been playing public h.s. sports, the only sport I know of that the students have had to miss actual class time for is golf, and that is for tournaments, not practice. The rules that dictate practice schedules are pretty strictly set on a state level, at least here in Illinois. Practices are before or after school, never during.
I'm not sure what you mean by "special classes" or "outside assignments." With our district's budget problems, we're lucky they get the classes they're supposed to have, let alone anything extra or special."

Things must really be different in Illinois!

What are special assignments and special classes? A organized ten minutes trip to the library worth an A in THREE classes. A GROUP research paper that count for 40% of the grade in English and is an automatic A. Classes that are meeting ONCE a week for 5 minutes and where the grade is giving for class participation! I could go on but anyone who has read about competitive sports in colleges must have heard about the tricks that school coaches have at their disposal.

As far as the "during" class hours, it is the definition of the class hours that is questionable. There are schools that schedule 8 classes but only 4 for each semester. Here is a real life example. My sister's best friend is a very promising swimmer who is on the radar screem of a good number of elite schools. She left private school after middle school to join one of the best swimming program at a local HS. Why? Here is her daily program. She has 4 classes from 7:50 am to 11:30. Her next period is lunch and then she has 3 periods of Health, PE, and Sports. What does this mean? She joins her teammates at 1pm and practices until 4pm.

By the way her classes are Social Sciences, Geography, English and Wood Shop. In the spring, the classes will be Math, History, Study Skills, and Home Economics. I am happy to report that she has maintained a perfect A so far at one of the best High Schools in El Paso.

Is this isolated? You should see what happens with the football and baseball programs!

By Momofsenior (Momofsenior) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:13 pm: Edit

I agree with both Marite and Driver on the issue of policing honors classes. Many parents, or as Driver said "the credential-crazed parents", in our system force their children to take honors classes when they are not motivated or simply do not belong. That is when the flexibility of placement in public schools is a problem. That being said, the system works well when students that are truly motivated but are unable to get into honors classes because they did not get on the right track to begin with or did not qualify by a 10th of a point are able to jump up with the help of parent input.

Many posts continue to support the huge variation among public and private schools. I am familiar with Boston Magazine's annual article on local public high schools and the standardized test scores in many towns are staggering. Clearly there are geographic areas such as NY and Boston where being accepted to private high school is as competitive as the college process. Those schools are going to have a large percentage of kids going to top colleges. Many top 5% kids at the best public high schools are getting as much guidance on this process as the college counselors are giving at private schools. The difference is there is no personal relationship with the adcoms. The question for me is whether there are still feeder schools and if these relationships with adcoms continue to influence the process.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Momofsenior:

I suspect that some public high schools GC's do have a special relationship with the adcom rep for their region. I know that our high school head GC is known to the regional rep for Harvard. When we visited Dartmouth several years ago, there seemed to be a fair sprinkling of Newton North graduates! Adcoms look out for contestants in some prestitious competitions and get to know the schools they attend. At last year's Avery Ashdown competition (for chemistry), the top competitiors came from public schools Wayland, Brookline, Lexington, Newton, Cambridge, and one private school (Andover).

When we looked at BUA a couple of years ago, it was made clear that members of CTY SET (students who had scored 700+ either in the math or verbal portion of SAT before 13) would be more than welcome. But it also struck us that it would be really easy to educate such kids, and it would be very surprising indeed if they did not score 1500+ 3 or 4 years later.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

Things must be different in Texas. In our high school, AP science classes are held in the afternoon for a double period. Phys Ed is 2 hours a week only. For those who take music, band is held during school hours, but again, only a couple hours a week. The rest of the time 8-2;30 with a 20 minutes break for lunch is taken up by real academic subjects.

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:44 pm: Edit

that's also the situation at my school...that only the top few kids are allowed to take honors level courses. kjofkw, i know what your daughter is going through because i'm pretty much going through the same thing myself. i was so used to being the smartest kid in class but ever since i transferred to a prep school i found that everyone else around me is smart or smarter. it's intimidating.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:46 pm: Edit

In our district, kids & parents may sign waivers applying for Honors and AP classes for which they are, by ordinary standards, not eligible. Some waiver kids succeed in jumping tracks, so I suppose I support the idea.

But some teachers do slow down classes to accommodate, which I object to, and some waiver students complain about "unfair" grading, in some URM students in some cases calling teachers racist, when the sad fact is that they weren't prepared for work at this level grades K-8.

Middle schools are the disaster zone in LAUSD, too, even in areas with good elementary schools and adequate or better high schools, the middle schools are awful.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

In our school, the sending teachers in each subject must recommend the student for honors level courses the following year. I have never even considered making my kids take these courses. They want to cause they both crave challenge and are very very very unhappy when a course is too easy for them (don't wanna get into middle school but that very issue is what precipitated advocating for accommodations).

Xiggi...all I can say is that I cannot believe what your public schools do as far as sports. I understand that your comments are derived from local experience but it is just the OPPOSITE here. In no way do sports practice during the school day, nor are ANY accomodations made for athletes as far as "special classses" or "outside assignments". All practices are after school. Games/meets are as well or on weekends. However, some games require early dismissal cause of the travel distances (rural state) or in the case of ski racing, must be held during the school day cause of daylight operations of ski areas. However, let me tell you that the missing of school to attend such EVENTS (again, NOT practices) makes it HARDER, NOT EASIER for the students involved. Their classes are NOT scheduled around these events like you are explaining. They must get the missed work beforehand and get it all in on time like any student who did not miss class. They may get home at 8:30 PM from a game and then have to start in all on their homework (min. 4 hours/night easily for my daughter). She hates being absent but it goes with the territory. Actually she is not too happy about how much school she has had to miss this fall. She has barely ever gone for an entire five day week cause of many reasons. She had to miss some afternoons to travel to soccer games. Once they went to the World Cup. She had to go visit her terminally ill grandfather out of state. She had two college visits and another one coming up. This past week, she was in a regional music festival (two days), though the second day, as well as the concert, was cancelled due to a snowstorm!! There certainly has been no easing up on her for having to attend these things. She just has to have everything in on time regardless. So, there is no break for athletes.....rather it is harder for those students who have major EC committments (not just sports but I can say this about various performing arts things my kids do....my other child does not get home til at least 9 PM every night). As you can see, it differs everywhere!

Momofsenior....I do agree that one big difference is that some of these private schools have ongoing relationships with adcoms.....and I agree with Marite that certain public schools do as well. I sure know our school does not!

Susan

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

As a former resident of Texas, I do understand what the schools there do with regard to sports. But then again, communities there would rather spend tax dollars on new stadiums, than schools or academics.

Seriously, until you understand the importance of sports in some parts of the country, and Texas is by no means unique (try rural midwest, for instance), you won't understand such scheduling decisions. Within the context of the communities involved, it is understandable, even if we don't agree. Areas like greater Boston are outliers.\

By Momofsenior (Momofsenior) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Susan -- I'm sure it's pretty obvious from my posts that our school does not have any special relationships with adcoms either, although I think we are looked at as one of the top public high schools in the state. It makes sense that some of these relationships would also exist in certain public schools.

Our school handles ECs exactly like yours -- absolutely no accomodations.

Regarding class placement, the sending teacher must recommend the student for an honors/AP class. But parents can waive their child in, overriding the teacher's recommendation.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:18 am: Edit

One thing I notice in passing where D's school is unusual: Orchestra is a full-period five-day-a-week class, all year. Wind Ensemble (band) is full-period second semester (also first semester if you're in Marching Band).

Orchestra, Band, and Choir all have four levels and the top levels are very very good, better than most college programs we're told. They certainly smoke at competitions.

(On my mind because D cut an audition CD to send to the colleges today.)

By Dadx (Dadx) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

Interesting topic. Problem in evaluating is that Scores are same, but class rank will differ. In the Duke admissions confidential, the author indicated that the students from private schools rarely rated the top category in acheivement, but that it was "handled" in committee, as was the same for the most competitive public high schools. It implies that the lower academic performance for private school kids was balanced by a sort of school-weighting. My guess is that its also heavily influenced by SAT scores. One wonders if the second decile public school kid with high scores gets a similar boost, or just the underacheiver label.

At the other public high schools, the student will stand out more. The issue will be what the admission committee "really" thinks of the HS. It seems to me that almost everyone from an uppermiddleclass area believes that his childs HS is superior or among the best. I have yet to determine how this is measured or actually ascertained.

Also, I think there is rampant grade inflation. Our high honor roll comprises 15-20 % of the class, with another 25-20% receiving honors.

Heres one measure. About 10% of our seniors were commended or above NM students. Another data point--about 25% of our class scores over 700 in verbal, and also 25% scores over 700 in math. Anyone elso have their numbers??

By Twinkletoes696 (Twinkletoes696) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit

0% commended and 0% finalists. :/

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 01:32 am: Edit

Massdad~

You may get a kick out of this -pun intended.

Only a few miles from your old "heimat" of Colleyville, you can find the spiffy Dragon's Stadium of the Southlake-Carroll ISD. I believe that the school district is one of the very best in Texas both academically and on the sports front. This probably reflects as much the commitment to education as the ease of raising taxes by the local authorities. But that is another story altogether!

I mentioned the stadium because it was good enough to host all the games of the Dallas Burn -one of the few professional soccer franchises in the country. However, the Burn will be moving in 2005 to a 65 million stadium in Frisco. You can guess one of the future owners of the stadium: Frisco ISD Here is a link:

http://www.dallasburn.com/media/press/2003/0403/040203a.nclk

I am NOT judging if the expense is appropriate -especially since I am soccer afficionado- but simply recognizing that $65,000,000 is about what most NFL facilities cost a few years ago!

PS The entire population of Frisco was about 6,000 in 1990.

PS2. I also understand the impact of sports on the communities. This weekend a regular football game between 2 high schools in Las Cruces, New Mexico attracted 21,000 spectators or more than 25% of the entire population of the town!

By Over30 (Over30) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 02:42 am: Edit

Our public HS is half a college prep magnet, and half just regular kids who live in the neighborhood, kids from two "low performing" middle schools who were moved wholesale to our school and a few who just tranferred in (anyone can do that if there is room). You have to qualify for the college prep program, although I don't personally feel it's that tough to get in. Requires 85% on state achievement test, no more than one C, and good attendance. We have 2,000+ kids, and 3 counselors this year (one is out sick). Needless to say, all college app work is done by the kids and parents or it's not done. They can't answer a lot of our questions, and do little to get the kids ready to apply. Of course, with 500-700 kids each, from all 4 grades, they really don't have much time to spend on college prep information - they're just trying to keep their heads above water. I'm jealous of the schools who have counselors who do nothing but work with the students on applications!

There are a few private schools here who call themselves college prep, and you do have to qualify for them. But from what I have heard (from parents, students and teachers there), money and status in the community make qualifying relatively easy. There is one girls school that is probably as good academically as our public school, (I think they do screen the girls to some extent), and they usually have a few NM every year. Of the 230 in our college prep program this year, 22 are semi-finalists and 30+ are commended. We have the most in our state almost every year.

Some of our kids go to top 25 schools and Ivy's every year, and 90% of our students go to either a 2 or 4 year college - this includes every senior, not just the college prep kids. I think that's impressive. The kids in the magnet program and the regular program do have some classes together (homeroom, PE, fine arts, classes that aren't core subjects). I'm very involved with volunteer work at the school, so I'm there a lot. From what I've seen and heard from students and teachers, they all seem to enjoy the mixed classes and they form friendships with a range of students. I think they all benefit from it too.


Our classes are mostly 2 semesters, including band, theatre, etc. PE is only required in 9th grade (full year). A lot of kids are involved in EC's that involve 1 or 2 trips to a competition and the kids are expected to get any missed work in before they leave. My son had to miss 2 weeks for a trip and had to complete all of his work before he left. The only thing that saved him was that spring break was the week before he left.

I don't believe there is much grade inflation, as only a handful get straight A's every year, and I know my son works hard for his grades. Of course some classes are easier than they should be, even on the AP level. Students are required to take the AP test if they take the class. You have to apply to take an AP class, with a recommendation from a teacher if it's a science, history, english or math. A lot of our college prep kids don't take more than 1 or 2 AP's, while some take 9 or 10.

Athletes do sometimes have to leave school early for a meet, but all practices are after school. However, a lot of kids take a study hall, office aid, newspaper, or yearbook class, all of which are non-credit classes. There is also a year long class for certain sports and most of the athletes in that sport take the class (which is last period of the day). So I guess that is like practice during the school day, but many would probably take a study hall or other non-credit course for that hour anyway. In fact, many of our top students do this because it can actually raise their class ranking. A student taking 4 AP's (worth 6 points for an A) and 2 honors courses (worth 5 points) would have a lower GPA than a student taking 4 AP's, 1 honors class and a study hall.

H and I wanted our kids in public school with a diverse student body. Fortunately, we have a good public available, and neither child wanted the rarified atmosphere of the private schools and would have refused to go! They are known as party schools among the kids - they say they have enough money and freedom to buy drugs, alcohol, etc., and they really do party a lot. Both of my kids have friends at the most exclusive private, and the stories we hear would curl your hair.
Also, two friends told me that LAC's they visited said they consider our kids in the same group as private schools kids because of the academic standards.

Sorry this post is so long and boring, but just wanted you to know what is going on in the middle of the country.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 10:37 am: Edit

I find the treatment of the swimmer highly unusual, Xiggi, only in that you say she is being recruited by elite schools and taking light classes. The swimmers I know who have gone on to elite schools (Harvard, Princeton,Yale, Stanford, UPenn, specifically) have all prepared themselves academically with rigorous highschool courses. They were high achievers academically as well as athletically.
However, I do know that one of our former public schools gave a lot of scheduling leeway to highschool juniors and seniors. For those years it was entirely possible to go to just a half day of school and spend the rest of your time at an EC as long as the program was approved. One young lady who is now at Tisch took 4 classes junior and senior years in the morning--was out by 11:30 and spent the rest of the day in a rigorous theatre program. A swimmer or other athlete could do the same thing--take 4 classes , then train. Those who found internships or jobs could also have the same schedule. The graduation requirements were lax enough that most kids had this option, but the majority stayed in school all day ( the school day ended at 2:30 anyways.) Only 2 years of science, math and social studies were required to graduate.
But there were two level of athletes. Some went on to Kent State, U of WVa, Purdue, Mich State, Kentucky, Ohio State. They were the big league athletes on full scholarship. I don't think that these kids, or colleges, for that matter, cared about the difficulty of their academic loads. But the ones who went on to UMIch, HPY and co. all took classes every bit as difficult as their peers who applied to these schools. One young man who went to Harvard as an athlete was also one of the top students in the school. Another was not as strong grade wise, but scored well over 1500 in his SAT1s. All of them even without their athletic achievement were likely candidates for highly selective schools. The sports was just the clincher for them. My son, too, was within the mid 50% range statistically for colleges where he applied. A bit under GPA wise, but his curriculum was solid--8 APsand he did show streaks of academic life in his achievements. It probably would not have been enough without the sports, but when they were thrown into the formula, he had a shot at colleges that would not have been a consideration if he were not an athlete. But he did spend many, many hours and year training at his sport. Summers, after school, missed school, missed vacations,missed social life. And he is currently training many hours a week at his college, more than the average financial aid student or overall students are spending on jobs. He certainly did not get something for nothing. He did not get the preferential treatment for admissions through birthright, nor did he just get in and become "another student". He is giving back in time and energy. As do most athletes. And since his school is not one of the Big 10 , any of the ones that get a lot of hype, recognition or publicity for sports, it is pretty much a thankless addition to his schedule. He does it because he enjoys the sport and wants to continue it. And the school apparently feels that it is a worthwhile pasttime to support because they do pump a lot of money into their athletic programs even at their less intense level of participation in the NCAAs.
An athlete from our local school got a full ride to U of Kentucky. She was an excellent students with 1400+ test scores. She could have gone to a highly selective school with her stats. She would have at least had a shot at it. She could have gotten into Uof Kentucky without the sport, I'm sure.And her parents are certainly well to do enough that the finances were not the issue. She wanted to pursue her sport at the elite level and U of Kentucky offered her the best opportunity to do so along with a financial package. She made a choice between academic rigor and athletic prowress. And that is a choice that many public schools permit. The private school where my son goes would be hard pressed to permit that choice. In choosing to go that school, a family is pledging to put academics and school community first. In other words, in addition to the rigorous academics that all student must take, there are EC requirements for EVERYONE. All students must participate in 6 terms fo team sports, and be in PE for those terms they are not in a team sport. Community service is required. And some form of arts or extracurricular activity is also mandatory. There is an opt out feature, where a student involved heavily in an out of school activity can use that in lieu of the school activity. We have some over the top ice skaters, gymnasts, performing arts students, dancers, swimmers, tennis players for instance who train intensively out side of school. However, I do hear that unless you are a super star in your field, the school does not look highly upon this alternative, and it could effect your recs. I have consistently seen kids who are less accomplished, but active in the school version of an activity get into highly rated college programs based on a specialized acitivity. In my son's case, every single school contacted his highschool coach even though his private club was well known in the sport and his accomplishments were more highly rated by the sport outside of the highschool arena. Except for the truly exceptional athlete, the ones who eschewed the highschool teams for private clubs, did not do anywhere nearly as well as expected.

By Momofsenior (Momofsenior) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 10:47 am: Edit

Dadx -- Those SAT scores are amazing! That's from a public school? We don't have numbers but I would bet that less than 5% have scores at or over 700. Our high honor roll is ridiculous also but it's not because of grade inflation, it's because the required GPA is very low.

By Driver (Driver) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 10:50 am: Edit

"Except for the truly exceptional athlete, the ones who eschewed the highschool teams for private clubs, did not do anywhere nearly as well as expected."

I have read that this is true of other activities as well, such as an accomplished musician who doesn't participate in the school orchestra. Colleges seem to be looking for those who will participate in the community life, not just be an individual star.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:04 am: Edit

"I have read that this is true of other activities as well, such as an accomplished musician who doesn't participate in the school orchestra. Colleges seem to be looking for those who will participate in the community life, not just be an individual star."

In general, that is true. There are exceptions, however. I would think that membership in the GBYSO would trump the high school band or jazz ensemble; ballet dancers typically need to perform with non-school groups; performers who are good enough to be cast on Broadway or in movies would appeal more to schools than members of their high school drama club. I suspect that Natalie Portman is not expected to "contribute to the life of the community"at Harvard in between making movies. Then there are ice skaters, ballroom dancers, or harpsichord and so forth who do not easily fit into high school teams but whose unusual accomplisments appeal to adcoms.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:05 am: Edit

"I have read that this is true of other activities as well, such as an accomplished musician who doesn't participate in the school orchestra. Colleges seem to be looking for those who will participate in the community life, not just be an individual star."

In general, that is true. There are exceptions, however. I would think that membership in the GBYSO would trump the high school band or jazz ensemble; ballet dancers typically need to perform with non-school groups; performers who are good enough to be cast on Broadway or in movies would appeal more to schools than members of their high school drama club. I suspect that Natalie Portman is not expected to "contribute to the life of the community"at Harvard in between making movies. Then there are ice skaters, ballroom dancers, or harpsichord players and so forth who do not easily fit into high school teams but whose unusual accomplisments appeal to adcoms.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:06 am: Edit

oops. Sorry for the double post.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:26 am: Edit

Xiggi,

Thanks for the update on Southlake. Ah, the memories you bring back:

When we first moved to the DFW area, the Southlake-Carrol ISD had just ben enjoined in Federal Court from having prayer at pep rallies. The head of the school board publicly denounced the court decision and said she would fight it. We did not house hunt in Southlake. Shortly after we moved in to our house in Colleyville, the woman across the street, the elementary school PTO head, visited and explained the community social heirarchy. Essentially it was based on what sport, team and position your son had. If you had a daughter, it was based on some heirarchy from band to majorette to cheerleader. Needless to say she did not discuss girl athletes. The Colleyville high school now has both boys and girls teams, but I just noted on their web site that they refer to the coaches as "faculty" and athletics is a department. Colleyville high has teams in 16 sports.

Contrast Colleyville with our current town of Brookline. The school has teams in 40 sports, from football to rugby to crew. Yet, no one really seems to care if the teams win or lose. Last year, when the boys basketball team went to the state tournament, the school was excited and attended, but when the lost, everyone was pleased that the season went so well, not that they lost. When my D's soccer team only won one game, the team celebrated a rebuilding year.

What is most interesting is that the athletic facilities are terrible, but no one really cares. The sports are for the kids. With so many teams, just about everyone can play a sport if they want. Top athletes are respected but not worshipped.

What's also interesting is that performing arts gets as much (maybe more) attention as athletics. For instance, the school (4 year enrollment of 1800) has 3 full time dance instructors. The annual dance recital fills the auditorium for three nights in a row.

Regarding either athletics or performing arts, practices/rehearsals are outside normal academic hours. Orchestra rehersal is at 7:30 AM, for instance, crew at 6 AM. Most sports are after school, and the buses almost never leave early. Sports teams are not for credit, but may be substituted for the PE requirement for that year. Performing arts classes, including orchestra and dance, can be for credit, but the distritution requirements are such that they don't really count for anything, they are just noted on the transcript. (it's more complicated, but I'll spare you).

It fascinates me how secondary ed culture varies around the country.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Mom of senior

They are amazing, arent they--surprised me--I'm not sure they are "consistent" with our schools mean SATs. I should add that they are unofficial, as I assembled them from the admissions book from the past year. It gives the schools and what the applications and results were with the GPA and the SAT I scores. No other data. But if you write it all down and then sort it along different measures, you can look at it differently. I think it is reasonably
accurate, although unreported anyplace but here

I did a little research last night when I couldnt sleep and looked at New Trier HS in Winnetka IL, which I know to be a large and competitive HS. they actually show the percentiles in their profile--although on rereading I wonder if they are showing the boundaries or the mean for the decile of SAT.

http://www.newtrier.k12.il.us/information/pub/ntprofile03_04.pdf

Posted here because I couldnt find it again without looking in my browsers history page. There are other sites that have interesting info for comparisons--Hunter College HS in NYC is pretty good, although it is basically a public prep school.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Driver,

I think the impact depends on the reason for nonparticipation in the school activity. Jamimom talked specifically about references being impacted. In my D's case, orchestra at school was at 7:30 AM. That was also the only time she could take any art classes, so art won. Since she'd doing music many hours a week outside I don't think it will matter. (She's in GBYSO, Marite, and played last Sunday in Symphony Hall with stiches in one of her fingers from a Friday PM accident.)

Dadx, thanks for the New Trier profile. An interesting read. Do you think they've oversimplified their grade weighting system too much?

By Dadx (Dadx) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Mdad-had the same reaction to the outline.

Obviously the combination of the school's actual "profile", measured however you want to configure it, and the guidance counselor's ability to properly market or convey it is critical. There is actually very little hard information in the admission books about how they decide one school deserves a boost in their kids rankings vs another school.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Dadx,

New Trier HS is actually an interesting example of weighted grading gone amok. Follow the link, and in the profile you will see five! different weights, depending on the class. No wonder the school is famous for pitched battles for valedictorian.

I think the school does this because they are close to Minnesota and Lake Wobegon, where all the kids are above average. That grading scheme is guaranteed to confuse the heck out of any adcom.

Funny thing is when I compared their stats to my D's HS's stats, there's not that much difference.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 02:17 am: Edit

New Trier is unclean. It's mentioned in Leviticus.

Hmm...when I want to Evanston Township High, they had only three levels of weighting. Six grades: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 with Honors classes multiplied by .8 and College Level classes multiplied by .5.

By Candad (Candad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 08:45 am: Edit

New Trier HS is one of Chicago/Illinois' best public high schools.

ranked by ACT
http://wdstudio.net/schoolsearch/top10.htm

ranked by PSAE (State test, similar to ACT)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/chi-021113psae,0,5497314,print.story

ranked by teacher's salary and per-student spending
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/chi-021113trend-graphic,0,495824.graphic

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:00 am: Edit

Candad,

New Trier is best if you think test scores or spending are the measure of the best. In my humble opinion, test scores and spending are more indicative of the SES of the parents. Those kids could have scored well in spite of the school, not because of the school.

New Trier is a nationally known public school, but I think that renown has more to do with Kenilworth, Northfiled, Wilmette and Winnetka (i.e. the cream of Chicago's north shore) than with the school itself.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:53 am: Edit

Candad

I agree. Thats why I noted the profile, just as a point of reference.

Mdad

Agreed.....the same thing is true of HYPSM, etc. Someone once wrote about HBS that it admitted people who were going to succeed, and then took the credit when they did. The same can be said of almost all the upper tier schools.

It would be truly interesting (and impossible) to get a measure of "educational value-added" that somehow adjusted for the intrinsic level of the incoming group. Not sure what one would do with it, but it wouls be of interest to have it.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:08 am: Edit

New Trier is a tremendous public school and one of the "known" schools to many colleges. Although it has tremendous resources and an awesome student body (yes, I'm sure mainly to do with the families who send their kids there), it is not a school for everybody. I have eschewed such schools for my children because I don't think they would do as well when there is so much competition for each role in a play, each seat in a music group, each berth in a team sport, each spot in an AP class. With such a highl evel student body, the teachers and staff can let Darwinian principles come into play and still get great results. If you have children that need some nurturing, or in my case, I did not have the money with my older ones to pay for a lot of after school coaching or private lessons. Nor the time to research the outside activities or to drive the bunch of them around. So I depended heavily on their highschool to provide everything and was not interested in a school that served as a gatekeeper. Participation for MY kids was what I looked for. It would not have helped me or my kids a whit if the school had the best math team, and AP courses if none of them could get in. The same with music. If they could not play, what good did an all-state level band do for my children?
My son this year made all state for instrument and voice and had to pick. His very talented friend at a New Trier type school did not make the cut. It made no sense to anyone because he is quite good, better than most who made it. Apparently with the music teachers running this group, there is some picking and choosing that uses seniority. This young man's school had the most participants of any of the public schools, and there were only 4 non seniors as opposed to a more even distribution of grades in my son's school. All of the kids at this school take private lessons in outside conservatories as well as participating in the schools' programs. My son's school gives private and semiprivate lessons as minor course offering as well as extensive classes for concert choir and acappello groups and for instruments. On top of that, you can pay for private lesson on your own time after school but at a much reduced rate from the going prices that are charged at the youth conservatories and private teacher. Also it is a one stop shop for me--the biggest bonus of all. I don't think the quality is as high as hand picking a master teacher from a conservatory, but it works well for us as a family.

As for those who do not participate in the highschool community activities, it is pretty well known by the colleges that many will not join the college orchestra or band either. My son at college says that the best musicians at his school are not in the orchestra; they are the asian premed and engineering majors. No way they will use their study time to commit to the college orchestra though many continue studying music privately with a member of that city's symphony orchestra. Maybe, if they can fit it into their schedule, they'll join an ad hoc chamber group or a special event where they'll play. I know a wonderfully gifted pianist who is now premed and she would never, never, offer her services as accompaniest to any of the school groups though her mother says she is constantly asked. She needs to spend her time studying, practicing and she does see a master teacher regularly to keep up her piano. If a showcase event asks her to solo, she might do so. But as far as benefiting the school community, the not as advanced pianist who is willing to accompany is far more value. The schools well know this. Which is why all of those years of private piano or violin at Juilliard Young musicians program is not as much of an interest as an EC for the 1600 SAT1 premed. His years of music will not benefit the college community. The main thing, I feel, that the school asks in looking at an applicant is "what does he bring to our school?" How is that kid going to contribute?
Going back to high level high schools, I feel the parents should ask themselves, "how can my child contribute in this environment and what can he get?" If the answer is that he would be sitting on the sidelines 3 out of 4 years, or not benefiting from the smorgas board of great course that are offered, it may not be the best choice for him. Better he goes to a slightly less prestigious highschool where he can be on student council, play in the band, play baseball, actually get a part in the school play and join the Key Club and be inducted into the Honor Society. I've seen some pretty ugly exclusion games played at some of these high level highschools. Oddly enough, they are the public schools which to me by definition should be all inclusive. I wrote a blistering letter to the athletic director of a large, prestigious highschool who was PROUD of his excellent soccer team. Well, over 300 little boys are in league soccer per class year throughout elementary school, and they only take 25, I believe for the middle school team. They are generally the same ones who end up on the high school team. He should be a shamed of himself. And yet, the private schools in the area that do not cut--everyone can play soccer, just not necessarily varsity until senior year, seem to get more kids in better school using the soccer as an EC. And that public team is not that great considering the numbers and time it had to develope a dynamite team. The same with the stage producitions for that school. The chances of getting a part are nil until the child is a junior or senior. And even then, the odds are not good. How the heck is the kid supposed to get experience? It all has to be done out side of the school.
I believe that for every child who finds himself at an advantage at New Trier because of the renown and quality of the school, there is one who is at a disadvantage, that would have done far better atthe smaller, public Lincoln High with fewer students and less high achieving or Catholic High, or Prep High. If your child is truly the creme dela creme, it 's great to put him in one of those schools. If you are looking for a school that will bring your child up to those ranks, you and the child would do better looking for a smaller school that still offers the opportunities that the NEw Trier High type school offers.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:55 am: Edit

Amen!!!!
(Jamimom)
We are in EXACTLY that situation. I so want to move my d. out of the school she chose. She is not finding any niche because the bar is just too high. I've cried every week, thinking this is not the best place for her -- but she does not want to change. SHE chose it, and SHE does not want to move -- she claims she had a hard enough time getting to know students there, and does not want to start over. We are so torn. If we demand the change, I think it will break her spirit. If we leave things as they are...it will break mine ;), to see her just sit on the sidelines (or not even attend) -- whether sports, music, drama, or whatever.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

My comment about New Trier is rooted in the fact that Evanston is--or at least was--its arch-rival. I remember some national ranking back in the year that had Evanston ranked in the top five high schools in the country.

Those were the days. Cue: theme from "Archie Bunker"

By Momcat (Momcat) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 01:48 pm: Edit

I have to laugh looking at that list of "best" schools in Illinois. My high school is on that list and that's about the last high school in this state that I would send my kids to. As Candad noted, test scores are only a small piece of the pie, the SES factor is huge. While my high school had money lining the halls and my son's current high school is deeply in debt, there is no comparison in who had the better high school experience. Better, in the sense of happiest and most successful, as opposed to who had the most pools or best rifle range.


Jamimom:
"Oddly enough, they are the public schools which to me by definition should be all inclusive. I wrote a blistering letter to the athletic director of a large, prestigious highschool who was PROUD of his excellent soccer team. Well, over 300 little boys are in league soccer per class year throughout elementary school, and they only take 25, I believe for the middle school team. They are generally the same ones who end up on the high school team. He should be a shamed of himself."

I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that you think the public school should take on everyone who wants to play, regardless of ability, or sheer numbers? Ideally, perhaps, but practically, I can't see how that is possible. Excuse me if I am misunderstanding you.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit

To add an example to my gripes about "nonranking", take a look at this page from a CT hs.

http://www.ridgefield.org/rhs/guidance/profile.html

The school doesnt "rank its students". But you can look at the chart and rank them exactly. The label above the chart SHOULD say that the school DOES rank its students and conceals it from them and their parents, but discloses it to colleges through the use of this chart.

I don't mean to pick on the Ridgefield schools, because this is what all of the other not-ranking schools do too. It just burns me that this fiction can go on. Either there should actually be no rank, or it should be disclosed to everyone. [I guess my argument breaks down a little bit since this chart IS posted on the school's website, and therefore the parents and students can see what the rank is too. Most schools dont post it.]

I wonder what profile information prep schools disclose. I think most of the nonranking public schools do it this way.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Momcat,

You said "I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that you think the public school should take on everyone who wants to play, regardless of ability, or sheer numbers? Ideally, perhaps, but practically, I can't see how that is possible. Excuse me if I am misunderstanding you."

It's possible by offering more teams, and making sure you have frosh, JV and Varsity. It also helps if you don't have a megahighschool of 4,000, and a town that is not sports crazed, where winning at any cost is the goal.

For example, at my D's high school, they have 30 or so sports, with multiple levels of play. The problem there is getting enough kids. For instance, two years ago, they did not have enough players to field a JV football team.

The only sports that regularly cut anyone seem to be B/G soccer, B/G tennis (a few - limited courts) and B/G b-ball. Of course, they only have 1800 students to fill up the teams.

By Candad (Candad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Massdad,

I totally agree with you that students body is an important criteria in evaluating schools. We didn't chase the top school districts when we moved to Chicagoland in '96. We believe that "Gold shines at everywhere". Our D spent her first 2 yrs of middle school in a school distric where its high schools ranked beyond 100 among 250 HS in Chicago area. Then we moved to the current address (same town, different school district). One yr later, our D went to a high school which was only two years old. We never worried about our hs till D applied to colleges last yr. We would have blamed D's failure due to enrolling into an unknown hs if these elite colleges didn't pick our D :-).

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 06:15 pm: Edit

To start cutting at the middle school level when your graduating class size exceeds 600 kids is a bit much, I believe. Only 25 kids were selected for the middle school team, less than that for the basketball team. At age 11. I think that is ridiculous. For $4000 a year, Catholic School allowed anyone who wanted to play to be on the team. Some of those kids went on to Catholic High School where they played varsity and a larger portion of them got scholarships (in basketball, I know) to colleges than the ones that stayed in the system. The same kids who played in middlesschool (over 90%) continued to play in highschool.
Woodland Hills School district in Pittsburgh had such a brougha over a similar situation after they had to merge school districts for racial integration reasons, that they opened up their sports to "everyone plays". It has not hurt them in the least. The private schools there have 4 teams per sport-Varsity, JV, Freshman and third team. For some sports, they add an instructional group. It is ironic that the public schools supposedly open to the public exclude more of the public in their activities. With the budget some of these school districts have for sports, the money should go into more opportunity for their students instead of better facilities for their very small percentage of kids who make the sports teams.. The district I am referring to, has spent a fortune in college level facilities and fields for their school in the last 5 years. All for the small numbers that can use them. I think it is outrageous. If anyone feels happy sending their child to a school where he is mainly a spectator in activities, there is ample opportunity to do so. I have chosen schools for my children , public, parochial and private that offered the most opportunities for them. Not have the doors shut at an age when they are still half baked. On that middleschool basketball team that the above public school was so proud of, the first string was not at all better than the always benched second string, and got their butts whipped by the third team of a private school that took everyone. I saw the game, my son was on that third team.

By Candad (Candad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Er, my D didn't play any sports.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Massdad, my son's private school does not have 100 students, half male. They have football, soccer, crosscountry, squash and "fitness" which is Phys ed. Soccer is comprised of 4 teams. Varsity, JVA and JVB and Freshmen. The girls have a set of sports as well. For winter there is indoor track, swimming, fencing, basketball and wrestling. There are no cuts. Everyone plays and learns. They regularly beat public school 3 and 4 times their size. Last year they beat the favored state champions in football, a large public school at a preseason exhibition game. They were tremendously outsized individually and by body count but there was no question which side had the brains and coaching.And this is a school where the average SAT is in the upper 1300s and the parents and community do not really care about the teams that much. I have watched several small boys grow into strong athletic men at this school and they are now powerhouse athletes with excellent training and opportunity. They would have been cut from the get go at most public school or sat on the bench. Most kids can become excellent participating athletes if they are given the opportunity, encouragement and training. I see so many promising athletic bodies hanging around the strip malls that should be practicing for a sport--they did not make the team or did not bother to try out because they were not good enough. Not my kids. Even the most clumsy kid had to at least do a variety of sports, learn the moves and rules. The big surprise is that they all turned out athletic when neither my husband nor I are, and only my son was earmarked as promising at elementary/middle school. The one I have now was considered a real "klutz". He got C's in gym--could never make a basket, never catch a ball, too slow, too uncoordinated, last to be picked for any team, dead last at swim meets. Now he excells at sports. The testosterone and years of training came together to make a pretty good athlete. In fact, we have just been told that he made the area all star team and is probably a college athletic prospect. And I never went to any of his games or events this year because I had the little ones with their soccer. This is what opportunity can do. So yes, I do believe, at the very least, at the middle school level, the public school should have a no cut policy. Or an extensive intramural program where the kids get equal instruction as the school team so that when they get to highschool they are on equal footing to try out for the freshman team. What the heck can you do with a 15 year old who is not good enough to make the school baseball team but loves baseball? In this area the neighborhood teams peter out at middle school level so that the private teams are even more selective than the school team? Say, at age 15,"well, you just aren't good enough, hang up the glove". Not me. There are schools somewhere that kid can play and I think that the public school has a problem that makes such cuts. I would not rule out that kid becoming a really good baseball player if he has the opportunity in the next few years.
I don't feel as strongly about the athletic as I do the academics. It is even a worse crime that schools gatekeep for academics at the younger ages. Again, I see it happen the most in middle school. If a child is not in certain tracks by 8th grade, he is usually a year behind and cannot possibly get a top curriculum rating in highschool. I have seen this happen repeated ly. My son as a junior is scheduled to take 4 APs this year. Our highly ranked public school only allows juniors to take 2 APs and gatekeeps the situation very strictly. Not to a lot of kids' advantage. At my application session last month, I saw many victims of that policy. High SATs, smart kids, but I can eyeball the curriculum and see 4 or 3 out 5 possible points on a 5 point scale. Why on earth would anyone cut off these kids opportunities like that? But they do it. Every single kid at my son's private school would get a 5. Every kid who wanted a 5 in my other son's catholic school could have one. As long as you don't fall under C level. And the public school is proud of how exclusive their AP program is. Actually, I am not all that impressed with the scores the kids get considering how the kids taking the classes are selected.
Now I am aware that the private school where my son goes is a highly selective boarding school (he does not board). And terribly expensive. But I see the same open policies used in schools that spend much less per student than the public school and do not have much selectivity. The catholic school my other son went to had lower academic scores, and more kids in the lower level of college prep classes than the public school. And fewer kids going on to the more selective schools. The public school is considered much better than this school. But for my child... well, he got 8 APs, 2 captainships, and all kinds of scholarship that his direct peers in the public school did not come close to getting.
By the way, Kjotkw, my son did not want to go to Catholic High. It was a terrible bone of contention. He would have prefered to go to the terrific Public High where the kids were cooler and he could have hung out a lot more. Now that he is a senior in college, he admits that he was not very "highminded" in his thinking. He wanted the fun and the freedom and was perfectly willing to sacrifice being on the school teams or the top courses for them. He really liked the public school kids in our neighborhood better than the kids at Catholic High. my son at Private Prep wanted to leave after a terrible freshman year where he got a 2.2 average working harder than he wanted to and not being able to hang with public and catholic school friends because of his workload and distance of the school. I did not give him the choice. He has worked his way up to a 3.0 (barely) average and we'll see how he ends up. The big surprise this year is that he has become an athlete. Must go. Ranted too much.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Jamimom,

Well put. School, sports and academics both, should be about doing, not watching. Yet, I fear it is the parents in many parts of the country that insist on winning teams even more than the students. After all, it is the parents who permit/force the schools to put up professional level athletic facilities. Of course, it is because of the reverse reasons that you and I have made the choices we have for our kids. Interesting, isn't it!

By Abyss (Abyss) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

I really didn't read this entire thread, but my eye caught Xiggi's comment about public schools, and I must comment. Personally have been to both excellent schools (public + private), I found a much harder cirriculum and much more motivated students at my public schools. Still I won't dare to make a generalization. it varies throughout the country but where I am right now, there is little option for a private school and the public schools are all nationally recognized -and are excellent. (good old NJ)

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:27 pm: Edit

abyss...it largely depends on which tier the private school belongs...if it's a first tier boarding school like lawrenceville, i would think the academics offered there is far better than what most public schools in the country can offer.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:28 pm: Edit

Not all kids want to play sports and if they really do not want to do so, well, that is a combination of an individual and parenting issue. Most of the top prep schools have a sports requirement, community service requirement, and an arts requirement. That does not mean that this is a route for every child. In Pittsburgh, the top prep school which require the above, lose a sizeable number of top kids for highschool because they transfer to another prep school where there is no sports requirement. I know several such young men who ended up at HPY, and they did not do sports. These boys and their parents felt that being forced to do sports was a waste of time that was better spent doing what the boys wanted to do. And they made the right decision. The kids were happy, the parents were happy and they fulfilled their goals. I am not dictating a path for everyone.
My son would have been had a perfect match with the public school there except for his laziness with academics. He was a bottom feeder academically and the school would have permitted to go pretty far down. But athletically, we did him no favors there, and his skill did not develop as well as his peers who continued on the highschool team at the public school. If he had been a better student, I would have certainly left him in the school system. In fact, I initially had him in a private school--the match was poor and I transferred him the the public school where he had some good years in elementary school. The middle school was a problem. He did so poorly, that I removed him and homeschooled him, then put him in a private school. And I don't know, maybe he would have worked it out in highschool had he stayed in the system. At the time he went to th private school, we really could not afford it and went into debt paying for everyone's education. We have gone from paying our own student loans right into paying our children's tuition and taking out some loans on their behalf as well. Only time will tell if we did the right thing and even then we will not know if things would have been better had we taken a different route.
I am not advocating private school for everyone. I can give you pages of reasons why a prep school is not the right choice for some kids and some major disadvantages to them. Every family works out some sort of a match between the kids and the schools.
I also differ from most of you because my kids have/had issues and problems that you all have been fortunate enough to avoid. I wish my kids had been more conscientious in school. Sometimes when I work with other people's kids, I do get a flash of jealousy. How I wish I were working with a 3.8 weighted or unweighted average instead of a 2.8. Or a 1400+ score instead of a 1250. I've yet to have one of my own with the stats of most of your kids. Regardless where your kids go to school, they will do well. You have taught them and they have learned to deal with the system and do well in it, whereas my kids needed to get out of the system because they were not dealing with it. I can only hope that maturity makes them less sensitive to the foibles of their environment and perhaps I have been overly manipulative in fixing the environment for them.
I do believe very strongly though, that public school supported by public tax dollars should make as many programs available to their students as possible. There is a stronger case for private schools not having to do so, because when you put a child in a private school, you are choosing to do so and paying for the education. It is your business to check out what you are buying. But most of us are pretty stuck with the public arena. It is ever so difficult to move, and money is a big issue. To find out that your school district which is supposed to be wonderful is so restrictive in the % of kids participating is really disappointing. And many of us do not look too carefully or know what to look for in a highschool when we buy a house during our kids' elementary years.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Gian, to compare Lawrenceville (or Milton etc.) to a typical private school is like comparing Boston Latin school to any old public school.

Abyss's point is well taken. Besides, far more kids have access to top public schools than have access to Lawrenceville.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Kjofkw - If I'm not mistaken, isn't your daughter a freshman? If so, my advice would be to give her time. My daughter went through a similar adjustment period when she moved from public middle school to a tough catholic high school.
She'd always been one of the top students at her middle school and she was shocked to discover that she now had to double (and in some cases) triple her efforts just to remain in the middle of the pack in some of her honors classes.

It's sometimes very difficult to watch her struggle and know that her life could be much easier if she'd gone to our local public school, but I have to remind myself that there's a lot of competition in life in general and this is good preparation.

By the way - for those of you who may have been following the saga of my daughter's AP class, she received a 93% on her exam this week. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is the start of a turn-around for her.

By Mstee (Mstee) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Wow Carolyn. That is great! Congratulations to your daughter. We who have been following her saga know that she worked very hard for that!

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Carolyn:

I am so happy for you and your D! It lets her know that she is fully capable and vindicates her decision. Well done indeed.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 02:19 pm: Edit

On kids doing great till high school, I want to add our experience.
My eldest was followed by educational psychologists at the UW as part of a high risk infant study. This included intelligence testing till third grade. Although her scores were all over the board, she was doing very well in school, and the test overall indicated very high IQ.( she hit the ceiling)
The uneven scores indicated learning disabilties, however twasn't till high school , when sheer will and intellect couldn't carry her anymore, that her learning disabilties really came out.
Her school was small enough, that it was able to easily accomodate her, but it is something that she has had to learn to work around.
The main reason why we picked a private school for her, is that she was way above what the public school was teaching in many areas, however since she was not two grade levels above in every subject, she was not eligible for the gifted classes.
Conversely, she needed extra support in math, but since she was not below two grade levels in all classes, she was not eligible, for extra help.
THey have since changed their policies, however, those were the rules when we were looking at schools.
Her sister had more apparent learning disabilities and is in public school. FOr a while she even had an IEP, but the extra help she was getting was minimal, and not really even appropriate. She is interested in attending a public school that has a great many AP classes, and the school encourages students to try out honors and AP classes. She is currently getting A's in honors history and English and she welcomes the opportunity to challenge herself and surround herself with other students who are as equally as interested in academics, even if she is not able to take all AP classes.
I dropped out of high school myself. This was before AP classes, and I was bored to death. I think high schools are better now, more relevant curriculum, and more hands on learning. OUr buildings are falling down, and while depressing, that doesn't make or break a high school.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Emerald - As usual, you bring up an excellent point. Learning disabilities should always be ruled out when a student starts struggling. Your older daughter impresses me with her drive and determination. By the way - I read parts of the Reed live journal link you mentioned elsewhere and Reed sounds like a neat school experience. No wonder your daughter is enjoying it!

Mystee and Marite - I'm not going to get too excited about my daughter's AP grade until I see that this is a trend. If she can only get her grade up to a B for the semester, we'll both breathe a giant sigh of relief. And, it does seem that since I've stepped back from expressing my worries to her that she is a bit calmer and struggling less. Of course, I now have no finger nails (all bitten off). But then again, I haven't needed a manicure since my kids were born.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Carolyn,
I'll cross my fingers the AP grade is the start of great things to come!!!

Yes my d. is a freshman. I agree we need to give it time (Patience is virtue I missed in the gene pool). At least right now, my concern is trying to determine if the school is the right fit. A little academic struggle is not a bad thing. But I feel she is giving up. Instead of pushing herself, I think she now feels that B's (& even C's) are fine... because even with a lot of work, she can't seem to break above-- so why bother with the work!?

I've mentioned before, that she is no longer trying very hard on finding EC's either. I'm sensing "why bother" in that department as well, because it is just too tough to compete, in some things, and the committment demanded in others is beyond her interest level...at least for now.

Everyone needs some opportunity to "shine", someplace (academics, arts, sports, whatever). Sometimes you need to do a little experimenting to find that area, but when the bar is so high, experimenting is difficult, if not impossible unless you are already shining.

And...the longer we patiently wait, the more firmly her roots grow in the new highschool, and the harder to make a switch.

I know it all "works out in the end". It's that patience thing again. ;)

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Kjofkw - I understand. I'm not sure if I mentioned this but if most of the other students went to catholic elementary schools, that could be part of it as well. I've noticed that at my daughter's school, the students who came in from Catholic schools seem more on top of the way things are conducted than students like my daughter who came from public schools. It seems that Catholic schools place a larger emphasis on things like grammar, spelling, rote memorization of math facts, etc. while my daughter's public elementary school took a broader view, stressing other types of things in the learning process. She had to play "catch up" last year to get into the swing of things and figure out what teachers wanted. Is there any way you could sit in on some of her classes to see if there's something different about the way the material is being delivered? (Of course, she'd hate that. Maybe a few teachers would let you sit in on other sections of the same class so you could get a feel for things). And, it might also be worthwhile to talk to some of the other parents at the school (difficult to do when you're new I know) to see if your d. really is the only one having this problem.

I do sympathize with you. I know you didn't make this decision lightly and it must be awful to have to second-guess it now. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 07:06 pm: Edit

i attended a catholic school in the philippines up until 5th grade...my experience was very rewarding and i was challenged with tough courses and was taught by dedicated (though incredibly strict) teachers. i liked the sense of discipline and found the kids in the school to be extremely well-behaved. the school was very traditional...the teachers were allowed to hit the students, punish them by making them squat for an hour...we had to sit still (absolutely no moving and i'm serious about that) and whenever we wanted to speak, we raised our hands and stood up to speak. each class began and ended with a prayer. after the teacher gives a lesson, all students are randomly called on to say what they learned from the lesson given that day...if one student repeats what another student has said, has nothing to say, or says something incorrect, the kid gets a "sad slip"...and three sad slips result in a "VR" or violation report. after three VRs, the kid gets expelled. overall, i liked the experience and as a result i'm more civilized and disciplined than i could have ever imagined.

when i moved to america, i transferred to another catholic school but didn't really like the school...i then transferred to a public school and liked it better there...probably because the catholic school had financial constraints and couldn't really afford to offer all the things i wanted at the time...i'd say it was not worth the money...
i would have to say the catholic school i attended in the philippines is the best of all three schools.

By Silverliningd (Silverliningd) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 03:38 pm: Edit

I have emailed a series of posters already, but I thought a general post would be effective, also.

I am writing an article on this exact topic for school, and wondered if anyone would let me use any of their quotations in my article (with proper attribution of course).

If you can, I believe my email address in my profile.

Thank you!!!