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Does anyone know if SAT I scores from 7th or 8th grade are sent to colleges along with high school scores? My son took the SAT I because he was considering the Johns Hopkins summer program for middle school students. If the scores are sent, do admissions officers look at the dates the SAT I was taken? Thanks.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:13 pm: Edit

According to the College Board, scores of SAT tests taken before 9th grade are erased after one year. They do not appear on reports. Beginning this year, score choice will be eliminated. Scores from all Sat and SAT-IIs tests taken since 9th grade will be recorded on the reports. But this will have no effect on pre-9th grade SAT scores.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Marite:

You are 99% right. On other hand if you have scored more than 1400 in SAT during 7th or 8th grade, your score are not erased. One of my close friend who is a 11th grader had scored 1580 while in 8th grade just got her score back and her report shows 1600 as well as 1580 of 8th grade.

Kids who has scored more than 1400 in 7th or 8th grade are receiving admissions pacakges from TOP 3 schools all the time. These kids are still in 9th or 10th grade.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Chinaman:

Thanks for the correction. I had not read that on the CB or CTY websites.

By Texas137 (Texas137) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:24 pm: Edit

I don't think Chinaman is right. My son had 1400+ on the SAT and also two 800s on SAT IIs in middle school, and it all got erased. We didn't figure this out until it was too late, and he had to repeat all of them in high school. I went around and around with the CB about this to no avail. They had a record of the scores in their archives, but they were unwilling to move them to his permanent record because the original exams had been destroyed.

Middle school scores can be preserved if you ask them to make the scores part of your permanent record. But you have to ask by the end of the school year in which the test was taken. You do not have 12 months from the exam in which to do this.

Interestingly, this does not apply to AP scores. He also took an AP exam in middle school, and that score remained.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:58 pm: Edit

The idea behind erasing SAT scores is to encourage middle school students to take the SAT without fearing that low scores would be part of the permanent record. The SAT scores of 7th graders who are already in the 97th percentile of their age cohort range from the 300s all the way to 1600. Of course, when students do score high, it would be nice if an exception could be made to the general rule which is designed to protect young SAT takers.
AP scores, are a different story. AP exams can be re-taken if a student scores low, but typically they are not. They are not gauges of aptitude as is the SAT, but of having mastered the materials in a college-level course in a specific field.

I read on a college website that if a student took the AP exam in a particular discipline (I forget which), more than two years prior to entering college, the student will have to take a placement test. The assumption is that the student will have forgotten a good deal of the materials.

Anyone has encountered this situation?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:46 pm: Edit

Both my kids took the SATs in seventh and eighth grades for the Johns Hopkins Talent Search. These scores are NOT on the score reports sent to colleges for applications for admissions. Marite is correct in the reasons why as this would discourage kids from participating in seventh and eighth grades if it were part of the record for college admissions.

I might want to warn you of something we came across that you might want to check on at your school. Our school has the senior and her parents look over the transcript to make sure everything is in order/correct, before it goes out to colleges. On the back of our school's transcript is a heading regarding standardized testing in tenth through twelfth grades. Our school lists all the SAT and SAT 2 test results in that section. I noticed they had my daughter's middle school SAT scores she took for JHU on there. At first glance, one would assume these were SAT scores taken in high school as this is a high school transcript and the testing heading even mentions tenth through twelfth grades on it. While the dates do indicate the tests were in eighth grade, you would have had to look quite closely to notice. While her scores were high for someone that age at the time, they are not in the same ballpark as the SAT scores she got as a junior in high school. Also it looks like she took the SATs three times when she only took them twice in high school (April and May of junior year). So, not only is there one test date that is quite a bit lower but it appears she took the test a lot of times when she only took it twice for college admissions. The high school did remove the middle school SAT scores. So, you might want to make sure that even though the Collegeboard will not show the middle school SAT scores on their reports, your school transcript might have. I am sure if they did, you can ask the school to remove that as it is not really appropriate cause the participants were told when signing up for the JHU talent search that these SATs would not count for college admissions. Anyway, the test scores really do not fit under a heading of high school testing. So, that was our experience and thought I would pass it on.

By the way, I have a senior who just began a distance math course through JHU Center for Talented Youth, all these years after doing the talent search back in middle school.

Susan

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Well I am sorry If I mislead somebody in any way. However, I based my information on what I was told by the CB. When I asked them how can I save my SAT scores of more than > 1500. I was told that it is automatic provided my score was above 1400. If it is not saved then arh..... Well such is life.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Do you really think that it matters at all?

We have -yet- to see a confirmed report that schools frown upon students taking the SAT tests multiples times. Quite to the contrary, numerous schools ENCOURAGE to take the tests multiples times, including most of the leading schools.

As far as the scores that might be listed, the schools will take the best individual scores -and quite rarely- the best combined score from one sitting. Again, there has never been a confirmed report that a school has averaged scores or used some of the lower reported scores for admission purposes.

One of the reasons behind dropping SCORE CHOICE was that is served little purpose.

My perception is that the "real" adcoms never see the detailed scores and that the best scores are simply transposed on the "review files" by non-decision makers.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

It is true that many schools encourage students to take the SAT several times. However, the Harvard Admissions office cautions against taking it more than twice.

There are also some colleges that average all SAT scores rather than taking the highest single scores. It makes sense to protect students against having their low SAT scores from middle schools included. Although one would think that adcoms might notice that certain scores dated from middle school, it's best not to count on it.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:25 am: Edit

Marite~

I do not have a dog in this fight because I didn;t take the SATs multiple times. However, I have discussed this in the past on the board and dealt with the reports of "frowning" about multiples testing in this way:

1. When someone assured that XYZ school DID average the test scores or penalize someone for taking a SAT more than two or three times, I respectfully asked to identify the school in reference.

2. Based on the disclosed school, I followed up with an email to the admission office and asked clarification.

So far, ALL schools have confirmed that the number of testing is absolutely trivial and that the policy of using the highest test scores is the current norm. Several schools also pointed out that the policy is spelled out in the admission/application documents.

Just for laughs, Tom Fischgrund, in his book, 1600 Perfect Score : The 7 Secrets of Acing the SAT, described a great number of students who took the SAT. One particular tester took it 5 times before scoring the elusive 1600. I mentioned this because the student attends ... Harvard.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:43 am: Edit

My daughter took the SAT in 7th grade- her score wasn't taht great perhaps 1000. It wasn't carried over, and wasn't counted or averaged. I knew I wasn't going to have her change schools at that time, or even study for the test, I just wanted her to do it for the practice.
It doesn't makes sense to me, that it would even matter.
If they get like a friend of hers did a 1400 when they are only 11, wouldnt they get an even higher score when they are juniors in high school?
Or are people thinking that they are only going to have their kids take the test once?
The schools I am familar with , take the highest scores
So if , like my daughter did your student gets a 780 V but only a 560 M one time, but then gets a 770V and a 570 math, they end up with a 1340 score.
pretty good
Of course they might like her friend with the 1400 start college when they are 13 or 14 so they never even have to take the SATs again!

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 09:06 am: Edit

Xiggi:

Harvard only cautions against taking the SAT more than twice because the adcom believes it is not helpful. But if indeed it helps raise scores, I am sure it has nothing against it!

I did read of some State Us averaging scores, but have not pursued it, so you know more than I.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 09:58 am: Edit

xiggi

Your point about who sees the CB transcript is an important one. If you are correct, as you may well be, there would be no probelm in taking the test at every sitting from sophomore year on until you got the higest possible score. As a parent of S whose score is just outside the top quartile at his top three choices, one wonders if there is a little hurdle there that could be cleared with one more test and a posssible extra 20 -30 points on one of the sections. In our case, we've elected not to find out.

BTW, there is a book by Hughes, who was a Harvard adm officer, which I believe admonished applicants not to take the SAT more than 3 times. The Hernandez book also makes negative comments about it,

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:34 am: Edit

Emerald,

You asked how much scores go up? In speaking with CTY a few years ago, they told me the average score goes up about 150 points. Keep in mind that the average score is below 500. I'm sure higher scores will go up less.

As an example, my D got a 610 in math in 7th grade. Fast forward to her Junior year (soph chronologically), she got a 670 math, much less than 150. On retake in October, she raised it to 750, within the estimates.

Interestingly, the CTY experts said maturity was the biggest factor in the SAT score rise in their experience. I wonder if the test prep effort would lead them to a more complex conclusion now?

Dadx, your comment regarding repeat testing is an interesting one. Since it has already been observed that scores rise with repeat testing, solely due to maturity gains, I suspect sorting out experience factors is tough. In other words, it's really no surprise that average scores rise with repeat testing, because the test taker is older on each repeat test.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

I thought I should add my OPINION on this. So far, I only tried to share the information and my experience on the subject.

But this what I think:

There are no magical formulas when it comes to taking the SAT. Everyone has a different background and what is beneficial for someone may be quite detrimental for another. There is also A LOT of poor advice floating around. That is why I believe in CHECKING directly with the schools and try to get it into writing. During the past year, I have noticed that quite a few people have outdated information about the admission process. It is not unusual for school counselors, interviewers or even visiting school delegates to DIRECTLY contradict the admission officers. Also, parents and students on the receiving end like to be selective about the information and only repeat what make sense to their particular situation.

Regarding the SAT, I do not believe that ANYONE should take it more than 2 or 3 times. WHY? It is entirely possible than someone may have bad luck on a certain day, especially with the verbal passages and that a repeat is in order. However, there is absolutely no reason to PRACTICE the SAT at an official exam. For instance, with a bit of effort, I have accumulated well over 30 tests from the past 10 years and that should be amply sufficient to adequately prepare.

Anyone wwho spends time practicing IN EARNEST on the multiple disclosed test does not need to take trial runs. Taking the test multiple times without drastically changing your preparation will TYPICALLY not yield differences of more than 30-60 points. TCB is correct in saying that multiple sittings do not increase scores very much but they also assume that the student takes the tests without much change in preparation.

On the other hand, there are students who absolutely want to achieve a determined score and augment their chances at admission at Lucky U. Despite my feeligns that they would better served by practicing more at home, I honestly believe that the benefits far outweigh any negative pitfalls. I have no doubt that the HYPS of this world are more interested in accepting a student who scored 800/780 at his 4th sitting than a student who scored 700/690 at his second sitting. So, if someone feels that he FAILED to reach his/her TRUE potential, by all means, they should take it again and again.

In my opinion, this is very similar to the old discussion about having a B in a very difficult class versus an A in a regular class. You hear many times that for ELITE schools a B in Advanced Calculus is better than a A in Regular Calculus. What people should really say is that you should pick your classes wisely and NOT get any Bs or Cs, especially in a core class.

At the end of the day, I am afraid that the highest scores get the prizes!

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:25 pm: Edit

The reason for the "three time rule" of taking the SAT1s or really any of these tests, is to caution some of these test obsessed kids and parents against focusing on the tests for too long. There is no hard and fast rule that you are out after 3 times, I'm sure. What the advice books, counselors, admission officers are saying that it does not look good to them to see someone spending a year and a half or two years taking the exam repeatedly. It is to the candidate's disadvantage. I know some kids (all asian) who would take the test until they scored perfectly or they ran out of time if this bit of conventional wisdom were not in place. And their parents would be right on their backs egging them on. And to do that would be to the detriment of their already academically stellar application. Those kids are not going to be denied because they have a 1510 instead of a 1600. Nor are they going to be accepted when they get that 1600 after 4-6 tries. It adds a negative factor to the application that the kids are spending their time still on the SATS.
That is not to say, that taking the SATs more than 3 times is an absolute taboo. My son took them 4 times to his advantage. I know several kids who got into top schools and took them more than 3 times. I have occaisionally recommended a 4th attempt to kids when there is a good reason to do so. There are some invisible SAT1 cut lines in schools where if the child is an athlete or other highly desired candidate, and they are just under that cut. Or a school wants to give someone a merit award but the SAT is just below the cutoff for consideration. But if you a get a kid who is already a high achiever whose biggest fault on the application is an overemphasis on dutiful school work, for him to be spending the time on SATs over and over again, can cause an admissions counselor to pause, shake her head and say "we don't need another one of those". These type of kids need something else on their application to distinguish them from the pack, and the 3 time rule gives them that opportunity.
And I have been to college sessions where the heads of admissions for Yale, Cornell, Princeton have specifically said that it is a minor flag, a raised eyebrow when they see repeated test attempts, and that 3 is pretty much the accepted number. There is no set formula to penalize the excessive testing, just a general feeling of malaise about the applicant, which in the top schools is often enough to sink the application.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Jamimom~

I was in complete agreement with your "conventional wisdom" until I read the last line:
"There is no set formula to penalize the excessive testing, just a general feeling of malaise about the applicant, which in the top schools is often enough to sink the application.

There is a huge divide between believing that multiple testing MIGHT get a frown and drawing a conclusion that it is OFTEN enough to sink an application.

Again, I am not on an endorsement campaign to have people taking the tests multiples times. However, the only verifiable reports are that schools DO encourage multiple sittings and that students have been admitted at Harvard after taking the test 5 times.

There is also a very logical argument that would fly in the face of an implied policy of "lesser" test taking. Right now, the schools do take the best scores ... if they would frown on multiple testing, they could announce that they would average the score or penalizing repeated test scores by a gliding scale. Not only do they NOT do that but they also accept the best individual scores from separate sittings.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention that the admission process seems to be particularly devoid of "conventional wisdom"

By Totaldollxoxo (Totaldollxoxo) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

hey, i am one of the kids who has taken the SAT for John's Hopkins and i'll tell you this:
when you get registered for the SAT, if you regisiter with the johns hopkins program, then they will fill out the 'send scores to' part.
you see, every college has a code, so you have to put the code down on the registration in order for your score to get sent to the college of your choice.
if you take the SAT for johns hopkins and recieve a score of 700 or higher on either the math or verbal section, i'm not quite sure what happens because i only got a 550 and a 680. that was in 7th grade and im in 8th grade now. go to the CTY website for more information: http://cty.jhu.edu

By Quink (Quink) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 09:27 am: Edit

It appears this notion, that it is de rigeur to take the SAT no more than two or three times, has it roots in two trends - the overall 'buyer's market' that the elite colleges enjoy, and their stated preference for brilliant individuals who (apologies in advance for the overused phrase you are about to read)"light a fire" in the classroom."

The admin officer's ideal of a truly brilliant individual simply waltzes into the first SAT sitting and gets a 1600, no fuss, no mess, no bother. If you have to STRIVE for this result, the jaded admin reasons, you are a 'dedicated, diligent, grade-grubber' without the true spark of genius. Q.E.D. - don't take the test too many times.

What a &^%#%^#& collection of arrogant monopolists, the College Board. Their success is entirely due to their long-term marketing campaign. They need a good kick in the pants from the UC system and other large universities - someday it will come, because we parents don't want to be stuck with therapy bills for our child's post-traumatic stress syndrome! Five to one, baby - let's rip these guys to shreds.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Quink,

Love your comment "arrogant monopolists". Just look at their pricing structures - especially to send a score report. If you look at their cost, it is essentially free if done online, because we requesters do all the work. They could send them electronically, and probably do. Surcharges for rush reports? What a joke. And not the time frames they quote for "normal" service - two weeks. If WE were the customers, this would be intolerable. Think of an existing retail business promising shipping within two weeks!

And the CSS profile? Hard to believe we pay what we do for the priv. of filling out a form on line that ETS then sends electronically to the college.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Quink~

It appears this notion, that it is de rigeur to take the SAT no more than two or three times,

Appearances can be deceiving ... believing that it is de rig(u)eur does not make it necessarily true. It is probably not the greatest idea to take the SAT 5 or 7 times, but advocating that one sitting is "better" is preposterous. If the colleges frowned upon multiple sittings, it would quite easy to ask for one-sitting scores or average the scores. The evidence supports that they encourage multiple testing.

The College Board may have a monopolistic attitude but I do not believe that their costs are excessive, especially when comparing to the cost of the final product: 4 years of college! I find the fees charged by colleges for application processing to be inappropriate, especially for online applications. It seems that most colleges are trying to recoup their exorbitant and unwarranted marketing expenses by charging the applicants.

I would be happy to live without the 5 or 6 storage boxes of glossy recruiting material in exchange for a $10 bucks application. Do we really need college brochures that look like Fortune 100 Annual Reports?

By Sailorgirl1985 (Sailorgirl1985) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 06:45 pm: Edit

I took the SAT's CTY Johns Hopkins. My scores aren't on my score report for colleges. I think if you sent your scores to a college or registered through College Board instead of Johns Hopkins that might be why your SAT scores show up. I did get mail though before high school from colleges, possibly the AMC tests or something, I dont really know what list I was on...

By Hawthorne (Hawthorne) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Are SAT scores from 7th or 8th grade scored differently for middle schoolers than high school students? I guess to be more concise, when taken in middle school is the SAT scored according to the middle school cohort? I've heard some people speak of a child doing well on the SAT "for their age group". I didn't know if that meant because they were only 12 and scoring as high as seniors who took the same test or if it was because there was some type of buffer thrown in there for them.

By Ontolome (Ontolome) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 04:09 pm: Edit

i don't think they're scored any differently. the evaluation only compares your 7th grade score to college-bound seniors. Duke TIP thing: "the national percentile for your verbal score of 550 is 65, indicating that you did better than 65% of the national group of college-bound seniors....For college-bound seniors in the class of 2000, the average verbal score was 505..." etc.