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First, please do not respond to this as if it's any kind of put down of Asian families. I have long admired the academic work ethic that I have seen with many Asian students, and I'm trying to find out what kinds of things their parents are doing to help instill that.

I recently found out that in my area, there is a Sat. Chinese school in which Chinese kids go to learn Mandarin and about their culture. I also saw on a thread here, that a group of Asian parents had gotten together to have their kids get tutoring on the SAT, including on the SAT Writing.

Are these kind of things typical for Asian families to be doing? If so, what inspired it? Cultural practices in their homelands?

What are other kinds of programs that the families do to help their kids excel academically?

I am aware that Jews have some similar programs such as Hebrew school (I know that there is a religious component to this, but I am sure that the academic component such as learning Hebrew also helps their kids academically).

Are there any other similar things that people of other ethicities do to help their kids do well?

I am asking because I am wondering if these ideas could be useful to some of the groups of people in the US who are not doing well academically or on standardized tests.

By Sac (Sac) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Northstarmom,

I'll take your post in the spirit in which it is obviously intended, and respond about Jews, rather than Asians. As a broad generalization in response to your broad generalizations, I believe the key is not Hebrew school -- which many Jewish children do not attend -- but much simpler: Books.

Again, dealing in generalizations, this is a tradition that originated for religious reasons (the Torah, or Books of Moses) then evolved for secular ones. Many Jewish homes are filled with books, and I'd guess that a disproportionate number of people who buy books and write books are also Jewish. It took me years to be able to get myself to write notes in the margins of a book, because I had been brought up with it as almost a holy object. One of my earliest memories is going to the library and getting my first library card at age five. I remember every detail about that experience.

Beyond that, there is a tradition in the Jewish religion of questioning. I'm sure you've heard references to splitting hairs like a Talmudic scholar. Books are not just to be absorbed, but open to analysis and debate.

Success in standardized tests really depends on vocabulary. Nothing builds vocabulary like reading. Reading comes from the pleasure, first, of being read to, and also from seeing the adults around you reading for pleasure. I really think it's as simple as that.

By Aparent1 (Aparent1) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, there was an article about this in the NY Times just recently. Evidently other ethnic groups are beginning to sign up in droves for these previously all-Asian programs. Unfortunately only part of the article is now available online: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30B17FA3B5A0C738EDDA90994DB404482

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Books is a good start. We live in a home where there isn't room for any more bookcases and D was read to from a very early age, to the point where she treated us as reading machines because first she was a little late in learning to read and then for a while because what she *could* read wasn't of any interest to her.
Role models help: the fact that there are times you could drop in and find all three of us reading.

Priorities. It's one thing to talk the talk, another to walk the walk. Education is a priority. To the point where housing choices--living in smaller, less desirable, costlier, etc. housing--were made on the basis of school district. Priorities including homework and creating an environment to optimize studying; we may have succeeded too well...the other night TheMom and I were talking quietly in the living room and D complained from the dining room that it was distracting. "Quiet" means no TV. Music, maybe, but generally ballet music, not anything with lyrics to follow. Priorities also includes an almost regular catechism of what homework is due when and what, if any, changes to our schedule(s) we have to make to accommodate this.

One thing we emphatically do NOT do is put out the "You must get an A" message. It's more like, "You need to work to your potential and ability." Of D's four B's, there's only one "I told you so" grade, that due to blowing her first test ever in high school. One of others, I wish she'd swallowed her pride and gone in on her lunch time to talk to the Calc teacher last year, she got the dreaded "89" but that's spilt milk over the dam.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Northstarmom:

You may recall my discomfort about Asian-Americans as a label. However, if we limit this label to a few groups (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and perhaps Vietnamese), there are a few generalizations that can be made:

Students are more likely to come from intact families--an important factor in student performance.
They may have been raised to think of their performance as a family matter rather than a purely individual one, thus putting greater pressure on them to do well.
They are more likely to study in groups; there was a study of students study habits at Berkeley done by someone at the Dana Center at UT-Austin which pointed out the value of study groups. By contrast, Latino and African-Americans do not study in groups as much.
I personally have no use for the cram schools, but I can see that they instill good work ethics.

In their newest book, No Excuses, Stephen and Abigail Thernstrom had an interesting observation. They claim that Asian/Asian American parents get upset if their children receive less than an A-; white middle class parents lower the boom when their children get a B-; alarm bells ring among Hispanic and African-American parents when the children receive a C-. We need to put this side by side with data suggesting that often tteachers have lower expectations of Hispanics and African-Americans. If both are correct, it is very difficult for these students to rise above low expectations.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Thanks Sac and Aparent1.
Aparnet1, the NY Times article that you posted the link to became the first that I have ever paid to obtain. (Gosh, I hate how newspapers now charge for this service!).

Sac -- What you say about books is important, and has gotten some attention. I think, though, that the info about Talmudic scholars is even more important and is less well known.
A problem that I have seen in URMs is that they tend to come from families, religions and school systems that do not encourage questioning. The kid who is considered well behaved and intelligent is the kid who does without questioning what they are told and who is also able to spit back with no revision or questioning things they've read in books.
IMO the fact that they aren't brought up to think hurts them when it comes to academic pursuits, including performance on standardized tests.
I would like to learn more about Talmudic scholars. What would you suggest would be the best way for me to learn about this (keeping in mind that I start from knowing only what you've posted)? Is there anything that is designed to explain their work to people who didn't grow up in the culture and who thus lack basic literacy on the subject?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Marite,
Would Indians not be in the group that you mention?
I missed your previous post about differentiation. Would it be possible for you to repeat some of that info again or to direct me to your other post?
Where I live is a small college city in which Asians are a low proportion of the population. Most are connected with the local universities, and the Asians at the universities come from all areas of Asia.

Many of them send their kids to the International Baccalaureate program that my son attends. I notice that across the board, the Asian students seem to be doing exceptionally well, so I haven't seen the differentiation among Asian cultures that may be more typical.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Northstarmom:

My discussion appeared on the Gatekeepers Tidbit's thread on Wednesday at 5:45. One thing I did not mention is the socio-economic backgrounds of the families prior to immigration. My understanding is that the majority of Indians are of middle class background and thus put a high value on education. The same applies to the Asian families in your community, since so many of them are connected with the local universities. There are, however, Asian cultures where book learning is not so highly valued (think about all those students across South and Southeast Asia who attend madrassas). There are as well, immigrants who come from societies where education is prized but who, themselves, were little educated prior to coming to the US. This may account for the split between valedictorians and drop outs that I described for Fort Wright, AK.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Marite,

How true your comments are. One only needs to a few miles north to Lawrence and Lowell Massachusetts, where one would find a serious asian gang problem along with a wide range of inner city problems. These are asian communities in crisis. I wonder how they fit the asian schema?

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Massdad;

My understanding is that the majority Southeast Asian community in Lawrence and Lowell is Cambodian. Cambodians have different values and attitudes toward learning than Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Vietnamese, being Theravada Buddhists rather than influenced by Confucian values. Many are also conflicted about whether to maintain their cultural identity or assimilate. A good book based on fieldwork in these two cities is Nancy Smith-Hefner: Growing Up Kmer-American. I am also told that many Vietnamese parents are so busy earning their living that they do not pay enough attention to what their children are doing. Hence the gang problem.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:58 pm: Edit

>>I recently found out that in my area, there is a Sat. Chinese school in which Chinese kids go to learn Mandarin and about their culture. I also saw on a thread here, that a group of Asian parents had gotten together to have their kids get tutoring on the SAT, including on the SAT Writing. <<

According to an article I read some time ago, this Asian (and especially Chinese) devotion to getting good SAT scores has an interesting origin and both good and bad consequences in the US.

In China there is a 2000 year tradition of the government giving fair and impartial civil service exams to all comers, and whomever passed was assured a lifetime of good employment and respect. Thus the concept of standardized testing a key to success has very deep roots in Chinese culture.

When transplanted to the US, Chinese immigrants and their children often view the SAT as the American version of this gateway to success. And they are partly right. The good result of this is that you see all those Asian kids with great SAT scores. The bad result is they sometimes assume that top grades and test scores are ALL you need and can't understand why their smart kids with no school involvement outside of academics didn't get into Harvard.

One thing I'm wondering is whether it will be very easy to transplant the obsession with the SAT and resultant study groups to other cultures that do not have such a long history of testing. I suspect it will be tough.

By Perry (Perry) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:59 pm: Edit

The Hmong are another example of the differences among various Asian groups in the U.S. Here, you have a people from a rural, mountainous region of Southease Asia, who were recruited by the CIA to fight the Vietcong. After the war they were persecuted terribly by the communist regime. Some of them found it enormously difficult to become acclimated to American society, unlike, for example, many of the Korean or Chinese immigrants who have come from urban environments. It's an interesting contrast. Cultural background makes an enormous difference.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Courier,

Your comment, "The bad result is they sometimes assume that top grades and test scores are ALL you need and can't understand why their smart kids with no school involvement outside of academics didn't get into Harvard" can be interpreted in a different way. Could it be that the admissions criteria are designed to screen out these kids to minimize the number of asian high achievers? We've had other threads on this topic, BTW.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan all share in this tradition of testing, which is why the label of model minority tend to be associated with immmigrants from these countries.

But I have also noted a slightly different phenomenon: the social groups also act as bases for study groups. For example, one of my friend (Chinese) was asked by parents in his Chinese Bible group to help tutor their children in math. These, apparently, are kids who are doing above average in school, so they're not talking remedial math. I've been trying to urge our school to promote study groups through existing clubs and teams, but it's hard work.

By Perry (Perry) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:17 pm: Edit

The study group phenomenon among some of these groups is quite interesting. I suppose part of it is attributable to the communal societies from which they come? Certainly, this tendency is more difficult to find among American born kids, who exist or have grown up in a more individualistic society and culture.

By Cubfan (Cubfan) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:32 pm: Edit

I know of several asian groups that get together to study the game of Go which seems to improve abstract thinking.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, I recently read an article (can't remember where off the top of my head) that discussed what Asian families do differently in terms of stressing education. In addition to everything mentioned above, there was one thing that stuck in my mind. Apparently, in many Asian families it is the norm for students to do their homework and study at the kitchen table while their mother works nearby. The author suggested that this helps to keep students focused on their work, minimizes distractions (i.e., TV, computers, etc) and re-emphasizes that everyone in the family is working for the same goals. This stuck in my mind because the smartest friend (non-Asian) I had growing up always did her homework at the kitchen table. She ended up with 1600's on the SATs, second in her class at Harvard, and with a
PHd. in Astrophysics from Princeton.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Could it be that the admissions criteria are designed to screen out these kids to minimize the number of asian high achievers?

The data published by the College Board does not support the belief that asian-american have better scores in the levels required at elite schools. The asian scores are only SLIGHLY better for the average number. When you reach the 700+ scores, whites outnumber asian-americans by a formidable margin, mostly because there are 7 times more whites taking the test. In the upper verbal range of SAT-1 and SAT-2, asians trail white scorers by a substantial margin.

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Where else would you do your homework? (she asks in mock innocence). I am first-generation Polish-American and did all my homework in the kitchen. My very suburban, all-American daughters do so, as well.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

Good data, but not the whole story, as you hint at. First, the question is not how average asians are treated - they are not applying to the elites anyway. The question is how the top scorers/high achievers are treated. The aggregate CB data only tells us how the group is doing, and your data needs to be normed against the number of test takers.

So, the question is not "how many high achieving asians are there..." but rather "how are high achieving asians treated relative to their high scoring non asain peers...". We already know that if we substitute latino or black for asian in the last sentence, the answer is "very well". Since caucasians are the majority group by far in this bucket, it is tough to ask the question for that group.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 05:01 pm: Edit

The kitchen works great for study except my D has spouse's notebook computer there. At least we can see how many IM boxes are open, since she can't change screens quickly enough when we walk the kitchen.

By Sac (Sac) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Northstarmom,

I'm sorry not to be more knowledgable about Talmudic traditions and how to find more about them. I think that if you just look at almost any reference under Talmud you will find the word "debate" used. Laws were passed down, but in every generation the rabbis (a word that actually means teachers rather than priests) debated over interpretations and applications of these laws. These debates were then also written down in books. And debated.

As with Asian Americans, Jews in this country also did not all come from the same cultures. But I have read that among Eastern European Jews, it was not uncommon that boys of four or five would already have been exposed to three or four languages -- Yiddish in the home, Hebrew at religious school, and the language(s) of the country in which he lived which. Given the political history of Eastern Europe, areas often changed hands, so that multiplied the languages even more. Languages were not just learned orally. With Hebrew, for example, you had to be literate in order to pray as well as to engage in the debates I mentioned. Of course, until fairly recently, you also had to be male to study Torah.

My suggestion that the key is books may seem obvious. But the more important point, I think, is that the key is books at the very earliest ages and then extending over a life time. I recently saw a young African American couple with their baby on public transportation, pointing out the letters on a sign to her as a way to play and keep her engaged. It struck me, because it was something I did with my kids, yet in the urban area where I live I see so many parents on public transportation just telling their children to keep quiet. When I looked at this baby's stroller, I saw it had a bumper sticker from UC Davis. These parents clearly were college graduates. So there is a class issue here, not just an ethnic one.

I, too, have heard that Asian American students once at college make more use of study groups than other students,including white students, and therefore do better. A counselor at UC's study center once remarked that when Asian American students get a B+ they will come in for help, often in the form of asking for a group. Other students often wait until they are in danger of failing.

By Momstheword (Momstheword) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 06:12 pm: Edit

a HA. This explains to me why in our community some view getting tutors to help with B+ work as ridiculous and over the top, while others view it as a matter of course.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Massdad~

Despite being far from complete and telling the whole story, I checked the existing data to find out the difference in admissions in a selected list of elite schools between whites and asians.

After having compiled that list, I compiled the number of students in both ethnic groups who could claim admission based on THE criteria: the is usually used to establish the "dominance" of asian-american students.

Here was the conclusion:

There were about 25,000 spots in the selected list of elite schools. From those, 14,120 or 56% went to whites and 5,703 or 23% went to Asians. Based on the numbers of SAT1 in 2003, that is about 2% of all whites and 6% of all asians who took the tests.

The 5,703 number is TWICE the number of Asians who scored higher than 750 on the Verbal AND 750 on the Math. It is about equivalent to the numbers of Asians who scored at least 700 on the verbal AND 750 on the Math portion.

In other words, it seems that all Asians who scored above 700 on verbal and 750 on the math SHOULD HAVE BEEN have been admitted in the school listed. Not bad, I would say.


Here are the details:

I. Admission statistics
ELITE SCHOOLS - (SOURCE USNEWS)
Table shows estimated freshmen entering in 2003, numbers and %age of whites and asians:

TOTAL FRESHMEN WHITE %- ASIANS %-- SCHOOLS
1,670 1,002 60% 284 17% = Harvard
1,185 ..770 65% 142 12% = Princeton
1,340 ..858 64% 174 13% = Yale
2,440 1,488 61% 439 18% = U Penn
1,020 ..693 68% 122 12% = Dartmouth
3,433 2,266 66% 584 17% = Cornell
1,750 1,050 60% 245 14% = Columbia
1,508 1,010 67% 211 14% = Brown
1,560 1,045 67% 187 12% = Duke
1,840 ..883 48% 460 25% = Stanford
1,050 ..473 45% 284 27% = MIT
..235 ..134 57% .63 27% = Caltech
5,970 2,448 41% 2,507 42% = Berkeley
25,000 14,120 56% 5,703 23% TOTAL

II. SAT-I STATISTICS

In 2003, there were about 670,000 White tests and 101,000 Asians tests.
The mean scores were:
Asians Verbal = 508; MATH = 575
White Verbal = 529; MATH = 534
In 1999, the scores were:
Asians Verbal = 498; MATH = 560
White Verbal = 527; MATH = 528

Students with 750+ Math
Asians = 6,000 in 99 and 3827 in 95
White = 14,000 in 99 and 9519 in 95

Students with 750 Verbal
Asians = 3,000 in 99 and 1476 in 95
White = 14,000 in 99 and 8976 in 95

In 1999, Students with 650+ Math
Asians = 27,000
White = 165,000

In 1999, Students with 700 Verbal
Asians = 6,000
White = 35,000

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

Interesting, but you really need a good statistics course, and preferrably a course on the interpretation and analysis of data. You would then understand that to appropriately analyse and compare data like this, you first need to look for outliers. In the admissions data, that's Berkeley. Why? First, it is a state school. (It's like the old IQ question "What does not fit in the following list..."). Second, Berkeley counts for fully 1/2 of the asians admitted to your dataset.

OK, so corrected, we have:

19,030 total, 11,672 white (61%) 3196 asian (16.8%). Not so hot for asians.

Now, consider the issue further: SAT score is only ONE factor in admissions. Any competent admissons officer will tell you HS record is more important than SAT scores. We all know of slackers that got great SAT scores and had mediocre grades (I was one) and we suspect that, given the discussion earlier in this thread, asians are less likely to be slackers.

But the truth is, we just don't have enough data. Any good data analysis course will tell you if you don't have the variables you know impact the outcome, you can't analyze or draw conclusions. And that's why this issue is so tough. So, Xiggi, see if you can get the GPA data, too. Then we can talk.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Massdad~

I followed the major rules of statistics:

1.I select the pool
2. I draw the conclusions that I feel are important to support MY views.

The exercise was NOT meant to be a comprehensive analysis of all the factors used in college admissions and was NOT meant to be anything more than a common sense analysis of simple data. There was no need for regression analysis and standard deviation analysis as this was not based on a sample but on the whole population of students at a selected number of schools. In other words, the results are 100% indicative of what happened at the school listed in the pool.

That being said, the only objective was to debunk the old myth that asians are discriminated despite having higher scores. Even if you delete Berkeley and do not consider it an elite school, the numbers are quite positive for asians. I frankly do not understand that having 16% of the admission is "not so hot" while the 61% for white would be more than acceptable.

My knowledge of statistics may be lacking but I still believe that the population of white is more than FIFTEEN times larger than the asian population.

No matter how we look at it, the analysis of the SAT scores does not support the urban legends of discrimination. As far as GPA numbers, I am pretty sure that the patterns will be similar: a slightly higher average GPA for asians and very similar GPA in the highest ranges of the GPA.

The rest of the admission puzzle becomes intensively subjective but, unless I am mistaken, the remaining areas will again be quite similar for white and asians.

Oh well, time to do something more interesting

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

You said " I frankly do not understand that having 16% of the admission is "not so hot" while the 61% for white would be more than acceptable. ".

Look at it this way: 30% of those scoring above 750 on the SAT in math were asian, yet they were only 16.8% of the elite entrants (less Berkeley). There. I just PROVED discrimination with the statistics. But of course I did not, you will say, because their percentage of high verbal scores is lower. WE DON"T HAVE ENOUGH DATA. There are other variables. Besides, an analysis of SAT scores misses the point. Why rely on them? Why not just say every group of any kind should be equally represented?

Look at the problem in a different way. Let us assume there is no difference in treatment. Should we worry, then, about the perception in the asian community that the deck is stacked against them? I think so: A great lesson I learned in the military was the importance of not only being fair, but appearing to be fair. If an individual or a group perceives "the system" to be unfair, we all have a problem.

You may chose to disagree, and I respect your difference of opinion. I would hope this exercise is not (at least not yet) a search for truth! Indeed, the numbers you present do tell interesting stories, such as the much greater asian representation at Berkeley, or the differrential performance between verbal and math in the highest bracket.

By Fishmom (Fishmom) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 01:45 am: Edit

hello

This is an interesting discussion. Both my husband and I are Chinese American, but we live in a rural area that is mostly Hispanic.

My three boys do well at school. Some have said it is because we are Asian American. I think most of it has to do with our home life and our expectations for them.

We encourage them to participate in outside activities but we keep things pretty low key at home. We rarely watch TV. No nintendo, play station, etc. We don't give them an allowance but they are paid for helping with the family business. My passion is reading so there are books EVERYWHERE. I think this is key.......instilling a love of reading when they are young.

I homeschooled the two older ones for three years. It was wonderful. Except for one month of sax lessons, my kids have never had formal (paid) lessons of any kind. We try to expose them to as much as possible, and when they show an interest in a certain subject or activity, we encourage them to explore that subject in depth.

I love this quote by William Butler Yeates: "Education is not the filling of a bucket but the lighting of a fire."

janet

By Coureur (Coureur) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 03:52 am: Edit

>>Could it be that the admissions criteria are designed to screen out these kids to minimize the number of asian high achievers? We've had other threads on this topic, BTW.<<

Are you suggesting that rewarding school involvement, sports, leadership, and other similar ECs are a deliberate attempt to "screen out" high achieving Asian students? If so, then we have a massive conspiracy on our hands involving adcoms and admissions deans from hundreds of schools across the country. Because nearly all colleges embrace these sort of achievements as desirable virtues. A conspiracy that huge sounds pretty farfetched to me.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Coureur,

As the one who posted the line you quote, of course, I think you are correct, that there is not a conspiracy etc. My point was not that adcoms sat around a conference table and said, "we've got a problem - this here group is dominating our classes. We've got to do something....". Rather, my point was two fold:

- how a simple, seemingly unrelated change, or a slight change in emphasis can tilt the landscape for or against a particular group, and

- how subtle and indirect bias could be.

With all the discussion over the past few years about the "importance" of a diversified class, one that does not just include "academic achievers", I am quite certain some "social engineering" is going on here. Is is to limit asians? I cannot say - I have no idea. Is it to help legacies, feeder prep schools, keep alums happy? Perhaps. After all, some of the big donor alums probably come from the era where one's squash skills were probably as important, perhaps more so, than one's academic skills.

Finally, all schools do NOT "embrace these sort of acievements". There are some that specifically emphasize intellectual etc. If you look at the 15 or so true elite U's, there are some interesting similarities.

To put on my conspiracy hat for a moment, you are aware that Ivy admissions officers meet regularly to discuss policy and so forth? Good chance to hatch and execute a conspiracy. Then, since the rest of the academic universe looks to the ivies for leadership, it's pretty simple to export the ivy approach to other institutions, through professional meetings etc.

I can tell you from my own professional experience at one of the ivies that others do look to us for leadership. This past week, I've been drafting part of the management plan for one of the recently awarded Biodefence Centers of Excellence grants. I received a call from another U that is leading another one of the regional centers. When I said I'd be happy to send them a copy of my draft and work with them to improve it, they told me that having a draft from my institution would make their job much easier, saying that a plan good enough for ------ would be good enough for them.

The point: it does not take a wide conspiracy to get a radical change in policy, even not so hot ones. Rather it takes the work of a few institutions viewed as leaders. The policies of the leaders tend to ripple through the rest of academe. Not always, and I'm sure (I hope) Marite can elaborate, disagree, support (at least offer a different perspective) on this.

Bottom line: admisson to the elites is a zero sum game, where every gainer is offset by a loser. In the absence of a clear understanding of how elite admission decisions are made, some group will always feel like they are losing out. Heck, just in these discussions, we've had virtually every group, minority or majority, opine that they are on the short end of the process. We need to be aware of the PERCEPTION of fairness, or lack of it. That's the issue.

By Hkkick (Hkkick) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

I am from HK.
I read your excellent articles and I do agree about unfair treatment agaist Asians.

Somebody is just a simple bad loser. He doesn't want admit that you are right.


I think he is from SF area.
Negative ethnic comparison deleted, borderline slur.
Hkkick, this is a sensitive discussion. Please write carefully. Another line like the one I deleted and you will be banned.

--Moderator Obiwan


Much text deleted.



Upon closer reading, the remainder of this post constitutes a personal attack. Poster banned.

HKKick

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Massdad:

Regarding the leadership of Ivies, and especially of Harvard, I've heard totally contradictory evidence. Because of the populist bent in some quarters, it is often advantageous not to be associated with Ivies, or to come from certain parts of the country (think about funding for the arts as an example of the tensions between funding for excellence and funding for more popular access). Sometimes, I think that a claim that universities are waiting for Harvard to take the lead or that they cannot act unless the Ivies do so is a copout for their own unwillingness to bite the bullet and just do what they think is right, for example, in terms of ED.

When it comes to merit scholarship, for example, the Ivies do not provide any, but that has not stopped other universities from providing more and more merit scholarships to the detriment of really needy students. The trend was actually accelerated after the Justice Department went after the Ivies and accused them of price-fixing (when they tried to avoid bidding against one another for the same students by disclosing to one another to whom they were making offers and for how much).

Regarding ECs. That is an interesting issue. It is the one most likely to affect Asian/Asian-American applicants, ceteris paribus. Let me note at the outset that Ivies tend to focus on competing against one another (that is the origin of the Ivy League) not necessarily against the best teams nationally (eg. from the Big Ten or UConn). So they may not seek to recruit the very best football player, the one likely to be the next NLF star. But they do try to cover a range of athletics. Asians and Asian-Americans concentrate their efforts in a few of these fields. How many Asian football players, or hockey players have we ever read about? There are, however, plenty of tennis players. The same goes for different kinds of ECs. Jamimom might wish to correct me, but my impression is that the overwhelming majority of Asians engaged in academic ECs as opposed to different kinds of ECs (community service of various kinds). In terms of music, they are more likely to be found playing classical music than jazz or some other kind of music, whether instrumental or vocal. Their academic interests are also distributed in a narrower range of fields than that of the white population (how many can one think have majored in classics, romance languages, literature?) Again, liberal arts colleges, including Ivies, want to accept students across lots of fields and will hear from disgruntled faculty members if they feel that there are not enough students accepted into such and such fields.

This means, as Jamimom observed, that they tend to compete against one another for the same slots in a narrow range of universities and colleges. If one wanted to prove discrimination, one would want to look for two applicants with the same academic stats and the same ECs and see if the non-Asian were given preference over the Asian applicant.

Now I realize that my S fits the stereotype to a T. Will that work against him? Possibly. But if he does not get accepted into an Ivy, I would prefer to see it as showing that he did not have the distinguishing feature that would make him attractive to his top choice rather than showing active discrimination.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Marite,

Thanks. You shed so valuable light on this topic, especially your observation that a group, because of the social similarities of its members, ends up in de facto competition within the group when applying to elite universities.

So, to carry the argument forward a bit, an effort to build a broad based entering class, encompassing skills from pure academics to varied athletics, a variety of arts etc, will work against any group that, because of cultural reasons, is more narrow in its focus. This makes sense, and is consistent with what the elites say about their admissions. And this could well account for the perception of bias against asians.

How interesting!

By Perry (Perry) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

In reagrard to Massdad's post --

I think his points are correct in many respects. It is inevitable that whenever an adcom shifts its admissions criteria or emphasis from one year to the next, no matter how subtle that change, that it will have certain ramifications for varying groups of applicants. Some of these effects, of course, are anticipated, which is why the policy was instituted in the first place. Others, however, cannot be expected and may produce surprising results.

I think what is interesting in the adcom process is the obvious human factor. The committees are composed of individuals who bring their own experiences, including biases, to the table. As might be anticipated, these experiences play a powerful role in determining how each of the committee members may perceive particular applicants. You may remember in the Gatekeepers (again) how Ralph or one of the other adcoms dismisses one of the applicants as "typically Asian" (my emphasis) and decides to wait for a "more qualified" one that will have a similar profile. As I also recall, one of the adcoms in that book was a young Asian-American, recently graduated from a selective college, who felt that Asian-American applicants were not getting the breaks or consideration that they deserved. There's much that could be read between the lines here, and it is regrettable that the author of the book did not explore them. In the final analysis, the adcom process is nothing more than a flawed mix of some ostensibly objective criteria and human subjective evaluation, with all the personal biases that it implies.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 04:46 pm: Edit

By reading Massdad's, Marite's, Perry's -and a few others- postings, I realize how much I have to learn! Thanks for peppering the boards with such eloquent, intelligent and sensitive posts.

X

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

Actually, I think I've learned as much or more from you, and hearing your views on this and other topics. It is so valuable for me to hear views that disagree with mine, whether subtly or strongly. I learn far less by discussions with folks who agree with me than with folks who have differing views.

So please, keep it up!

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

Ditto here. The best thing about discussions is learning to look at things from different perspectives, and if complete agreement is not possible, to agree to disagree without putting the other person down. Keep it up.

By Perry (Perry) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Xiggi -- We all have much to learn, which is also why your contributions are so valuable.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Great post, Marite. That one should go into a "Best of" thread somewhere.

Perry, I've projected myself into some adcom processes and you're certainly right about the idiosyncratic human factors. I know to a moral certainty that some EC's would impress me much less than others, e.g., I'm not wild about student government unless it can be showed that the SG actually accomplished something other than re-arranging chairs on the Titanic\\\\ patio.

Xiggi, to follow up with what others are thinking, I appreciate your presence. If nothing else, you can always be used as a bad example.

By Perry (Perry) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Thedad --

I know by serving on hiring committees how arbitrary these proceedings can be, even before an applicant is invited to an interview. In fact, sometimes these processes can be irrational to the point of defying all logic. I long ago gave up trying to figure people out -- it's simply impossible. I think the same dyanamics happen within adcoms: individual committee members may get attached to particular applicants; let their own biases drive their judgements; make assumptions about applicants that may be erroneous; are required to build each class according to the particular dictates of faculty or whoever, which may change each year; who knows? Sure, the adcoms have the test scores, the grades and class rank, most of which are flawed in their own way for purposes of comparing one applicant to another. In my view, it's a very messy process riddled -- inevitably -- with mistakes and sometimes (not always) poor judgement. How could it be otherwise?

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

Thedad forgot to include a wink emoticon in his post!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Marite: I did!?!!

Perry: just so. This is why I'm fond of calling this a fuzzy-logic kind of process when everyone wants it very cut-and-dried, deterministic.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 11:46 pm: Edit

TheDad~

That was quite an oversight of my part! However, I have expressed my feelings about your incredible contributions to the boards in several other posts. I have always appreciated the combination of your sense of humor and the presentation of hard facts. I even like the subtle teasing, although I wont forget that "yoghurt/Texas" comment any time soon

"Is qui bene amat, bene castigat."

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 03:41 am: Edit

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

By Coureur (Coureur) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:33 am: Edit

Mortua lingua sola est bona.

"The only good language is a dead language."

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 11:18 am: Edit

So which dead language should we try to revive?

About 15 years ago, a new graduate of a top LAC was hired as receptionist. She had spent a couple of years in China and had wonderful Chinese language skills. But it eventually became clear that this had come at the expense of more traditional languages. One day, I came across her and a colleague (aboout my age). He was saying, by way of conclusion: "De gustibus non est disputandum." She looked at me blankly and said: "Am I supposed to understand this?" My colleague tried again: "It means. 'Chacun a son gout.'" She looked at me again, in some indignation: "Wo bu dong. I don't understand this, either."

Xiggi: I'm so glad to see that Latin is spoken in some parts of Texas, as well as French!

Thedad: The quote for your Graeco-Scythian novel has to be: Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.

It's a beautiful New England fall day here today. Carpe diem.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Oh, this is what happened. When my parents announced that we would be moving to the El Paso/Jyarez borderplex from the Dallas/Forth Worth Metroplex, I immediately started my research. Realizing that the area was heavily populated by Latinos, I bought an English-Latin dictionary and started reading it with abandon.

However, the locals must be speaking a heavy dialect or some kind of obscure native tongue because they do not seem to understand me that well.

Brought to you by Dan Xiggi Quayle.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

When Charles de Gaulle visited Greece in the early 1960s, he prepared a speech in impeccable Greek. Trouble was, he spoke classical Greek, which none of those who heard him could understand.
As long as the locals are happy campers... Make that four cartons of yoghurt.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Xiggi,

What Latin dialect to Latinos speak? Latinish?

Where did you live in the DFW Metroplex?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Marite, I give, what's the translation? My Latin is a certain kind of camp Latin (very camp say some) and my Greek is miniscule.

By May_1 (May_1) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Well, [cough,cough] not so subtly returning to the topic...

At school I find that there are many study groups that the Asians participate in. The problem in joining these groups is that they're exclusive. If you're not asian, you're probably not going feel comfortable with those who speak, or can at least understand, a different language. I mean, even if English is their first language, most can at least understand the other language when its spoken by their friends. You almost feel as if you're an outsider.

Regarding the cram schools...As my high school was about 40% asian, many students attended these SAT/language schools on Saturdays.

One junior in particular comes to mind: Korean immigrant, impeccable student, single-minded in his slavish devotion to science, does ECs to get into MIT, did Saturday school for years; it ends up that I scored higher than him on my PSAT in sophomore year than he did in his, and that, as a junior, I had a higher SAT score than him. This erked him to no end. Sure, he does well academically, but the is utterly devoid of personality. The kid is a robot. (Not to say that academic success and personality are mutually exclusive)

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 05:16 pm: Edit

The Dad:

Beware Greeks bearing gifts (from the Aeneid).

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit

May 1:

You probably have a point. In our high school, though, where Asian-Americans constitute only 7% of the student population, they are very heavily represented in the academic teams. The teams are a form of study group. I'd love them to draw from a wider range of students or to use the groups formed on the basis of identity to become springboards for study groups. The principal and assistant principals (both African-Americans) agree study groups are a good thing, but they have not really done anything to promote them. Part of the problem is that their approach to raising achievement is to work on an individual basis.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Marite, thank goodness. I was worried that Dona Ferentes was a pop singer I didn't know of and that Timeo Danaos was a smoldering new film star. I could have actually asked D, who *does* have some Latin now, but it was more fun this way. Alas, as an epigraph it's a the wrong end the The Matter of Greece for my purposes. The decline and fall of Athens strikes me as one of those tragedies of history, inevitable [as things were] but sad nonetheless.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Thedad:

The literal translation is actually "I fear Greeks, even those bearing gifts." The Trojan horse can be used as a metaphor in the discourse of the clash of civilizations. How many countries in the Middle East are leery of American aid?
Is your D doing Latin-Vergil? My S is only in Latin 2, using a highly simplified version of Ovid's Metamorphoses.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 12:13 am: Edit

Marite, no, alas. By design, D did a 2-3 in languages, 2 of Latin, 3 in French, doubling up with Latin 2 and French 1 sophomore year. However, she wants to take more Latin and maybe Greek in college. She even has a Harry Potter book in Latin...dang, she shoulda mentioned that about her Fantasy Club EC on her Yale app.

Funny, but the novel as much as it's about anything is about mutual influence of civilizations on one hand and what means "family" on the other.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 01:43 am: Edit

Massdad~

My family lived across the street from St. Mark's School in an area called Preston Royal.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 07:57 am: Edit

Harry Potter in Latin. I thought only Winnie the Pooh had made it into Latin (Winnie Ille Pooh).

My S had to give up Spanish 4 this year in order to take his math course, but is sticking to Latin. If the schedule works out next year, he'll take up Spanish again. But he has just found out that, if he wants to pursue math beyond the undergraduate level, he will have to take a language exam in either French, German or Russsian.

By Professormom (Professormom) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 09:16 am: Edit

"But he has just found out that, if he wants to pursue math beyond the undergraduate level, he will have to take a language exam in either French, German or Russsian."

Normally the language exams for math grad students just require that they demonstrate a solid "reading knowledge" of the language. They don't need to speak it, they don't need to understand it orally, and they don't need to write grammatically correct sentences in it. The idea is that they should be able to read journal articles and books written in one of those languages.

Studying Latin and Spanish should help a great deal in picking up what is needed to pass a typical language exam in French, given the commonalities across the languages. Actually, I think studying any second or third language wakes up mental circuits that make it easier to acquire additional languages.

Reading foreign language articles in math professional journals isn't as hard as it might be in other disciplines, because mathematical symbols and equation notation are pretty much universal and there are cognates for many technical terms.

A good place for your son to start to get exposed to technical French would be an excellent journal called Crux Mathematicorum, published by the Canadian Mathematical Society. It is aimed at strong high school students who enjoy the kinds of problems typically found on math competitions. And, because it's Canadian, much of the content is written in both English and French. It's kind of amusing to compare the two versions of some of the problems.

Speaking of Crux reminds me of a fascinating item I read in the Wall Street Journal a decade ago. It cited studies which suggested that kids who learn a second language early on (e.g., Quebec kids, who generally study both English and French in school from an early age) acquire a mental flexibility which enhances math problem-solving and creativity.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 09:43 am: Edit

Professormom:

Thanks for the leads. We'll try to look out for Crux.

I 'd been considering steering my S toward German, on the theory that if he butchered the language, at least I would not cringe!

French is my first language, so I'd be delighted if my S studied it (and he could communicate better with his French cousins whose English continues to be atrocious, never mind studying it since sixth grade). He learned Spanish because that is the language taught in our schools, beginning in 7th (and now 6th) grade. He decided to take up Latin because its predictable syntactical structure appealed to his mathematical bent. Unfortunately, my mentioning of all the exceptions to rules in French made that language less appealing to him. I can only hope he changes his mind in college!

Thanks again for the lead about Crux.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:19 am: Edit

I have a son who butchers all of the Romance languages which unfortunately is all that is offered at his school--Latin, Spanish, French and Italian. He has the perfect mouth and speech patterns for German or Russian and through his voice lessons has learned some German. He does much better on the German songs than the smooth beautiful Italian arias.
He is strugging with his 3rd year of Spanish and hopes to either start Italian next year or German to help with his voice selections. He had to take the 3 years of one language ( a school requirement) or he would have ditched the Spanish. Since he, like your son took Spanish in Middle school, I had hoped that it would go easier than starting a new language such as Latin or French but I don't think it made much of a difference after the first quarter. Most of those kids in Spanish I had already taken some Spanish.
As an aside, this language thing followed some of my kids into college. Some colleges require 2 years of a language or passing their language proficiency test. My son in college did not pass the test but unfortunately did well enough to qualify for intermediate level language which was not easy for him. He should have started at the beginning again, especially since he was carrying a heavy load of academics in his major. He did not need this intermediate level language on his back as well. He just could not spend the time on it that the course required. So he did poorly in a class that could hve boosted his GPA had he gone into a lower level as he should have since he had only taken 2 years of that language in highschool during freshman and sophomore years. If language is not a kid's forte and he is just taking it to fulfill the requirements of a school, he should probably take it at a beginners level so he is not pressed to work too hard at it especially if his major is in another difficult area or if his grades are important because he is premed or prelaw or grad school bound.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:21 am: Edit

I would think twice about pushing towards German ...unless he likes words like "Fussballweltmeisterschaftsqualifikationsspiel". Since math is his game, he might like "neunhundertneunundneunzigtausendneunhundertneunundneunzig". Everyday words in German

Regarding languages families, I still think that learning Latin helps to understand the construction of words and get hints at VERY difficult words in French or Spanish -or prepare for med school!. However, the commonality between Latin and romance language is far less that people assume, especially when it comes to the modern uses of the language. If it was that easy all the Romans would be able to speak and understand Latin.

Learning foreign languages requires considerable efforts but it is true that it gets easier when mastering the same families.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:26 am: Edit

Professormom, your post brought back some long forgotten memories. I am fluent in German. Was even more fluent in my college years, but had no interest in taking German in college. I took one of those exams you are referring to. In my school, the exam consisted of translating a paragraph that the department secretary gave you--she just randomly picked one from a selection in a file she kept. You were allowed a language dictionary and pretty much all the time you wanted. A piece of cake, I thought. Well, the article was on the dynamics and mechanics of a jet engine. I don't think I could have half understood it in English, never mind translating into English and my dictionary was useless because of the the technical terms in the article. Thank God, German is a language that loves compound words that you can break apart and literally cobble together in English. I did pass the exam, but I would not have bet a pfennig on the outcome when I handed the thing into the secretary. I would not have been at all surprised if I failed the thing.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:36 am: Edit

I gave up trying to teach my son French when he was 3 and I realized after months of wishing him good night, that he was still butchering "bonne nuit," and I just could not stand it! Our school only have a 2-year requirement for foreign languages. My S actually did very well in Spanish 3 and would have continued into Spanish 4 if it had not clashed with his math course. He enjoys Latin 2 (though his pronounciation differs from mine, which is very French). His reason for taking it had to do with its logical structure. When his Latin teacher heard that last year, she took him to visit an encryption lab where her nephew works. It was a real treat. Alas, our school does not offer either Russian or German. Next year may well be his last year in high school, so it's not a good time to start another language.

Your idea that my S could take a different language in college at the beginner's level is a good one. There would be no presumption of prior knowledge on anyone's part, and he could apply himself to studying it rather than blowing it off.

For what it's worth, I once graded the French exam of a young woman who had taken AP French and had minored in French in college. It was barely passable, even though this was her second attempt. The experience left all of us rather shaken.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:40 am: Edit

I find it odd in this country that most high schools offer far more courses in Spanish and French than in German, especially when Germany has played a historically dominant role in European affairs and continues to be the central economic power on the continent. And yet, many high schools do not offer German. The reasons for the popularity of Spanish are obvious, but why French over German?

In another vein, my daughter completed her AP German at the end of 10th grade, and is now tutoring students in the language. Rather than continue her German studies immediately with university courses, she decided to take a few electives in her high school that she wanted to pursue. My hope, of course, is that she will not forget too much of it by the time she enters college since she wants to continue to study the language. She has a good ear for it, and finds that -- like Jamimom's son -- that it helps with her song selections and singing.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:43 am: Edit

I have an anecdote about German, too. A German graduate student in Physics at Tufts decided to take care of the easiest things first--or so he thought. In his first semester, he decided to get rid of the foreign language requirement by taking the German exam. Lo and behold, he flunked. His problem? His English was limited, and he'd not brought a dictionary along, so he could not find equivalents for familiar German terms. I knew exactly how he must have felt when I took the French exam in grad school. I did not take along a dictionary and got stuck on a number of terms. So much for hubris.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:46 am: Edit

Perry:

The lack of popularity of German puzzles me, too. Russian used to be offered at our school, but its popularity has dropped since the end of the USSR.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:56 am: Edit

Marite --

Yes, it's strange. It could be a vestige of the post WW II legacy -- a definitive under appreciation for things German after the war. Although I think much of this post war animus has certainly dissipated, the lack of course offerings in high school could be a consequence of sorts. This is pure speculation on my part...

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Perry,

Actually, German was more popular in the immediate post war period than now.

Rather, I think there are more practical reasons for the popularity of French over German:

- French, dating back for several hundred years, was considered a language of culture and diplomacy.

- German was considered the language of science and industry. Before WWII, it was common to do one's graduate or postgraduate study in Germany, especially in chemistry and physics, the dominant sciences of that day. The top publications in chemistry especially were german, so one needed a knowledge of german to undestand the literature. Now, most of those journals have adopted english names and publish in english. You can still find a paper or two in German, but they ususally will have an english abstract.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 12:10 pm: Edit

The German dept. at D's high school keeps hanging on, barely, as low enrollment threatens some of the classes.

Parts of the country have a French historical connection (Illinois, where I started taking French) and then, too, as my grandmother pointed out, French was at one time the major language of diplomacy. Worldwide, it's spoken much more than German. That said, my attempts at German sound like someone gargling while dying.

When I lived in Washington, D.C., I did a bit of translating in social & shopping situations for three chaps who came from Zaire...their French was like nothing I learned in high school but the feeling was mutual, I think, and it worked out well.

TheMom and I used to speak French when we didn't want Little Big Ears to understand but alas Little Big Ears is now Big Big Ears and her French is much more current and, while I wince at her accent--sacre tonnere!--her vocabulary and grammar are now both better than ours...daily practice does it. (Marite, she has one of the Harry Potter books in French, too.)

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Thedad:

And my French is nothing like that of my teenage nieces and nephews who speak a kind of franglais that would make members of the Academie Francaise apoplectic; it is, however, the lingua franca of French teenagers. I spent 10 minutes trying to understand what my niece was saying when she commented that "les vetements sont vachement chipes ici." It turned out she meant "cheap." Now, why could she not have said "bon marche"? (Sorry Xiggi, I still have to practice putting in accents).

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Oh...franglais. We speak that in our household comme d'habitude.

I actually think the AF is wrong-headed on trying to preserve the language, which like the Constitution, should live and breathe. Otoh, I'm middlin' conservative on English usage myself...but I don't try to put it in a straitjacket.

D has had three French teachers, only one of whom had what I would regard as an accent worth emulating. Her present teacher is of Vietnamese origin and has an accent you could cut with a meat cleaver.

Works in both directions, I guess. I once ordered k'ung p'ao gi (sorry for lack of tone indicators) and the waitress squinted at me, looked the menu, and said, "You mean number 16?" I was *so* deflated.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Marite~ There is an easy way to bypass the accents ... just capitalize the foreign words. See how correct "BON MARCHE" becomes!

Regarding the languages taught in school, I have to admit to be quite perplexed by the discussion of Spanish or French being lesser choices than German or Russian.

I believe that it would be misguided to use the economic power of a country with the establishment of a school material. It was one of those ridiculous idea that forced me to take Japanses for 2 years in middle school when our school made Japanese MANDATORY. A few years later, Japan had lost most of economic might and the school changed it back to Spanish.

When looking at one particular language, one needs to look at the use of the language in the world, and well past the absolute numbers of speakers. French, English, and Spanish has become the official language of many, many countries and is widely used in diplomatic circles.

On the one hand, Russian is mostly spoken in the former Soviet Union while German is spoken in Germany, Austria and in a small part of Cookooland aka Switzerland. Coupled with the intrinsic difficulty of the language and the fact that non-natives have little chance to ever master it, the ratio of effort versus usefullness is not that great.

One the other hand, armed with French, one can travel throughout quite a number of African, Arabic, and Caribbean nations and have a very good chance to be understood. Spanish is obviously king in the Americas -except for those pesky Brazilians who got hooked on Portuguese!- while we know that English is fast becoming the universal language.

Obviously, I am not saying that Russian or German should not be offered in US schools. I am smimply stressing that there are ample reasons why French and Spanish are much better choices for the majority of students.

Lastly, you may get a kick of a "guesstimate" of the popularity of languages in the world.


1. CAN YOU GUESS IT ??? Number of speakers: 1 billion+
2. English Number of speakers: 508 million
3. Hindustani Number of speakers: 497 million
4. Spanish Number of speakers: 392 million
5. Russian Number of speakers: 277 million
6. Arabic Number of speakers: 246 million
7. Bengali Number of speakers: 211 million
8. Portuguese Number of speakers: 191 million
9. Malay-Indonesian Number of speakers: 159 million
10. French Number of speakers: 129 million

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Well, Xiggi, #1 would be chinese, or course. But only written. Another source I've seen mentions Mandarin as #1, Hindi ahead of English. It also has the following interesting factoid:

"English is far more world wide in its distribution than all other spoken languages. It is an official language in 52 countries as well as many small colonies and territories. In addition, 1/4 to 1/3 of the people in the world understand and speak English to some degree. It has become the most useful language to learn for international travel and is now the de facto language of diplomacy. In 2001, the 189 member countries in the United Nations were asked what language they wish to use for communication with embassies from other countries. More than 120 chose English, 40 selected French, and 20 wanted to use Spanish. Those who wanted English to be the common language included all of the former Soviet republics, Viet Nam, and most of the Arab world. English is also the dominant language in electronic communication. About 75% of the world's mail, telexes, and cables are in English. Approximately 60% of the world's radio programs are in English. About 90% of all Internet traffic is as well. However, the percentage of Internet users who are not native English speakers is increasing rapidly, especially in Asia."

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

TheDad~

"Comme d'habitude"

This reminds me of one of my dad's favorite trivia questions. Playing trivia has been a favorite passtime of our family, especially during the holidays when the extended family -that could be easily confused with an United Nations delegation- gets together. Since everybody tries to trip the rest of the family, we get to hear some pretty arcane expositions.

Anyway, my dad loves to ask: Who wrote the original version of the famous song "My Way"? After laughing at the answers ranging from Frank Sinatra to Paul Anka, we all get to hear the original version.

Obviously, this would not have tripped Marite

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Massdad~

I also thought that Hindi would have been well ahead of English, considering the population. I think that Hindi should be at 600 million.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Massdad --

I would say that english is not only the most widely used language in diplomacy, much to the chagrin of the French, but also in science, popular culture, and the internet. However, with the current animosity between the U.S. and the French over Iraq, the renaming of "French Fries" to Freedom Fries, and other such nonsense, who knows? -- maybe French will soon be out of fashion in our high schools, many of which are dropping language instruction anyway because of the enormous state budget deficits.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:28 pm: Edit

It actually would have tripped me. When I was a teenager, American pop songs were translated into French. I can still sing the Everly brothers "Dream, dream dream" in French (though off-key). Then, my brother came back from university with a stack of classical music records and my musical allegiances shifted.

Regarding the foreign language requirement in high schools: of course, it makes sense to offer the most commonly used (or commonly requested) languages in a particular community. It's only when one goes to graduate school that one realizes the languages that were learned in high school do not match the graduate program's requirements.

Xiggi:
Hindi is spoken in India of course, but note all the Booker prize winners from South Asia. Not all are living in England. In fact, methinks that British literature is kept afloat by non-Brits. It must have started with Conrad.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Perry:

Considering the number of French jokes about Belgians and pommes frites, I don't mind the renaming of French fries. In fact, I recently bought a bag of fries that I noted, after taking it home, was done "Belgian style."

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Well,

French was considered the language of culture and diplomacy only until to WW I, whereupon Germany rose to become the dominant economic and military power in europe. France's colonial legacy certainly left more French speaking people in Africa, but when did Americans ever care about France's colonial ambitions in Africa or the Middle East until after WW II? (when they cared only about the Middle East) The influence of Germany in the Twentieth Century has been far greater than France's, which is why it is puzzling that German is not considered more important to teach than French.

By Candad (Candad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Marite,

When my D picked up French at HS, she discovered that there is a big difference between the (French) French and the Canadian French she learnt at grade 5.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Belgian style? That's a new twist. It's difficult isn't it to keep pace with these maddening turns in our culture to insult the French...

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Perry:

The epigones of Derrida, Lacan, Kristeva, Althusser, Foucault, Bourdieu, de Certeau, and quite a few more, would not agree with you. Certainly, Hegel, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Kant, Benjamin and Wittgenstein have been enormously important, but their position of prominence in academia has lately had to be shared with French thinkers.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Gee Xiggi, I can hit you with trivia questions about science, engineering and so forth, but music? I give.

But, for both the trivia component as well as the geography lesson, as people to name the 5 most populous countries in the world. I have many a time, and watch people struggle with even the first. Most can get to #3, but how many of you, seeing this right now, can name #4? #5? Without looking it up? It is sad.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Candad:

I think the Canadian accent (never mind some specific expressions) shows the Normand origins of the speakers' ancestors. I remember being introduced to a French Canadian in my very first week in the US. I could not understand her pronounciation (which mortally offended her); but a French student who'd grown up speaking Normandy patois until he went to primary school, had no trouble.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Marite --

You're right, but the ideas of these French thinkers are and have been largely hermetically sealed within academia, while the ramifications of Germany's past military adventures and current economic power have been far more reaching...

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Here's the issue. The Twentieth Century has been largely defined by the two world wars, initiated by Germany, and the 1989 fall of the Berlin Wall, symbolizing the de-facto de-legitimization of Communism. These are extraordinary world events, centered in one form or another around the rise, division, and reunification of Germany. It would seem that the public education establishment in the U.S. would recognize the influence of these remarkable events and consider the instruction of German of far more importance then it currently does. But of course, this line of thinking assumes a logic that does not seem to exist.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Perry:

Re: the ramifications of Germany past military adventures... One need not know German to study those. Just as American scholars have done more--until recently--to expose Vichy history, some of the best studies of recent German history have been by Americans and British historians.

As for current economic power, see Xiggi's comments about Japanese. Years ago, students flocked to Japanese language classes in the hope of landing jobs in Japan or related to Japan. Now, with the Japanese miracle bust, fewer take Japanese language classes; most of those who do are attracted to the classes because of anime.

The other day, the formation of an anime club was announced at our high school. There were 80 students who signed up. Since the meeting room can only accommodate 30, 50 are on the membership waiting-list. To put this in perspective, if you remember from previous posts of mine, our on-again off-again math club did a lot of recruiting. The total membership so far is fewer than 20.

The problem with learning foreign languages is that by the time a student realizes which is going to be most useful, it is a bit late in the day to learn it.

By Candad (Candad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Question on starting a new language at college.

My D plans to study Spanish (for its popularity, no offense to Perry ) next semester/year. She touched very little Spanish and Latin at middle school (half year each). Since most of her classmates would be someone who already has learnt Spanish at HS, her concern is how to maintain her GPA while compete with others in Spanish. Any suggestions?

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Many colleges have different classes/sections for language learners who have different language backgrounds, such as native and non-native speakers. They also administer placement test at the beginning of the year. Look up the deparmtental websites of the colleges your D is applying to to see if such distinctions are made.

By Candad (Candad) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Marite,

Thanks for the suggestion. D is already at college and Spanish will be her 4th language (if she takes it). The problem is the GPA-driven at her college (same thing at other elite U?). For example, to keep a high GPA, many students take Calculus though they already had done Multi-variable Calculus or even Linear Algebra before enrolling into college. The Elementary Spanish at her college is fast paced (five classes per week) and many students had excelled well at AP Spanish.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Language classes tend to require daily attendance, so five days a week is not unusual. They are also more demanding insofar as students need to keep up with the work on a daily basis or fall behind. They cannot pull last-minute cramming sessions as in many other courses. As a result, students find that language classes take up far more of their time than other courses. That said, if your D is interested, she could approach the instructor of the Elem Spanish class in her college and bring up her concern about being in the same class as students who already have AP Spanish. The latter should really not be allowed to take Elem Spanish. Sheesh. At least, there should be separate classes.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 06:00 pm: Edit

1. Speaking about french fries, most experts agree that the name does not come from the fact that their origin is French, but because the potatoes are "frenched" — cut into lengthwise strips. Nowithstanding the great contributions of a certain Monsieur Parmentier to the success of the now famous tuber, it is the Belgians who are considered the undisputed world experts in french fries.

2. The original of My Way was written by Claude Francois, a teenagers' idol in France, and called "Comme d'habitude".

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Xiggi:

Thanks for the info. I did not listen to Claude Francois enough, obviously! If I recall my high school history, Parmentier was Minister under Louis XVI and sought to convince skeptical French farmers that the tubers were worth growing by fencing off his experimental plot. What was worth protecting was worth stealing, the reasoning went. Then there was the 24 course banquet featuring potatoes, including the eponymous pommes de terre Parmentier (steamed potatoes). I have eaten fries in Brussels, and yes, they're great. But steak frites is still the quintessential French meal.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Perry~

I asked my dad about his views on the teaching of German in schools. When he grew up in Belgium, at his school students had to take a minimum of nine years of the second language (Dutch in case you were french speaking), six years of the third official language (German) and English for good measure. In addition, if you followed a classical education, you would also get 6 years of Latin and Greek. He mentioned that BY FAR the least important language to learn was German.

As far as the importance of Germany in Europe, he said that you may overestimate its preponderance in Europe. After all, they ended up three times losing the wars they started (there was one at the end of the 19th century, too). Germany is and has been an important voice in Europe but no more than England, France, Italy, and Spain. The history of Europe has been written over thousands of years and focusing on the past century would be a tad simplistic.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Xiggi has a good point. The fact that Germany was not Germany until Bismarck, and then was divided from 1945 until 1989 made it difficult to study German history as a unified field. As for which European language was/is most popular in European schools, it depends on the country. In France, English has maintained its status as no.1 (beginning in 6th grade), with German, Spanish and Italian taking the no.2 spot (in 8th grade). Since the 1968 reforms, Latin and Greek have lost enormous ground. There is no longer a classics track, even. I am always amazed at how well Europeans from Scandinavia to the Balkans, speak and write English. The exception are the French who are as bad as the Japanese when it comes to foreign languages.

By Sac (Sac) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 08:01 pm: Edit

I think it's the Italians who speak the least English in Western Europe. I've read this is because they import American tv shows and movies and dub them, rather than use subtitles. On the other hand, Italian seems to be a very popular language for American students to learn in college and even at some high schools. In this case, I don't think the influence is either economic or tradition, it's the lure of Italy.

On various trips to Europe over the decades, I've noticed a changing attitude towards German tourists and therefore towards the German language. During my earliest trips, there was much resentment at Germany's prosperity, and those who had learned German under Nazi occupation did not like to speak it or admit they understood it. Often, they learned English, instead. On the most recent trip, we noticed this resentment had pretty much disappeared and that there were areas that catered more to German tourists than English-speaking ones.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

You step away from this board for a short while and all manner of interesting posts appear.

Xiggi -

Your father has an interesting point. European history has indeed been written over thousands of years, but Germany largely defined the history of Europe in the Twentieth Century. It rapidly rose to become preeminent european power in the twentieth century with its economic and military prowess and discoveries in science and technology. By WWI, the British empire was already in an active state of disintegration, and France's era of conquest had long since past with Napoleon's defeat. Spain and Italy both came under the influence of German militarism and fascism.

It's also interesting to note that many eastern europeans speak German for obvious reasons, since they were occupied during WWII and existed under the influence of east germany during the cold war -- the Soviets main ally. Yet, I suppose there's a difference in having to learn the language of an occupier or for fear of a militaristic neighbor versus learning a language of an ally like France or of a protector with enormous economic and military power like the U.S. during the Cold War. Nonetheless, no matter how you look at it, it's virtually impossible to overestimate the ramifications of German actions in europe during the twentieth century.

Sac -- In my own experience, the Spanish appear to have the least facility with English, although perhaps this has changed in the last 10 years or so since I was there. As I recall, the Spanish spoke French as their second language and barely knew English at all. As Marite notes, this is not the case in many Nothern European countries where they seem to speak a flawless form of British English.

I recall visiting Hungary a couple of years ago and was stunned by how many languages people in that small country speak. It's out of necessity, as they say, but it puts someone like myself from the United States to shame...

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 12:02 am: Edit

Perry:
Russia/USSR can give Germany a run for its money for influence over the course of European history, and then some (your view of Germany's importance in world history is peculiarly Eurocentric, by the way). More important, though Germany's actions had important consequences in a variety of countries, it is not necessary to know German history or the German language to study these consequences. For history, German is truly important only to the study of Germany per se. France was indeed less powerful than Germany, but its grip on its colonial empire remained strong throughout most of the 20th century. It is only in the last few decades that English has begun to replace French as the most popular foreign language in many parts of the former French empire in Asia and Africa. I, for one, delight in having discussions with Haitian taxi drivers in the Greater Boston area. They are so politically-minded.

By Perry (Perry) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 11:21 am: Edit

Marite --

I must disagree with you on several points. I don't think Russia has rivaled Germany's influence on modern european history, especially given that it was considered, even by its own standards, to have been a backward nation state until the mid 20th century. My eurocentric view of Germany's influence has to do with the fact that we are debating Germany's influence on *European* history. With respect to France, it began losing its colonial possessions as early, if not sooner, than WW I, when it retreated from the Middle East. Exhausted and in ruins after WW II, it abandoned much of West Africa and was defeated in the nationalist wars in Algeria and Vietnam.

I agree that you don't have to know the language of a country when studying its history especially at the undergraduate level. Graduate level study is a different matter, however.

At any rate, I suspect that the reason U.S. high schools teach French more than German has something to do with our own historical entanglements with France in the formative years of America up to the Civil War. Certainly, Jefferson and Adams, et al, spent considerably more time in Paris than Berlin...

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Perry:

Hmmm. The twentieth century ecompasses more than Europe or even Euro-America, and thus the issue of which languages should be taught transcends the needs of European history. Sometimes I wish I had learned German, but not for the sake of doing history. It's just that important works in German makes their way into American academia a bit slowly. Habermas formulated his concept of civil society in the 1960s, but his writings were not translated into English until the 1980s, whereupon the concept flooded various academic disciplines. I also wish I knew Russian, as there are masses of archival materials that might be of use to me. But for the study of colonialism and postcolonialism, French and English are far more useful.

I'll skip a discussion of European or world history. When I say I am surprised by the lack of popularity of German in US high school, I am comparing it with Italian (offered in our school). I seriously doubt that 9th graders choosing a foreign language to learn are concerned (or even know) that Jefferson or Franklin spent years in France. My S has evinced a (very mild) interest in learning Japanese, all because of his love of anime. He is learning Latin because of its logical structure (reminiscent to him of math) and Spanish because that was the language offered in elementary school, and so he might as well continue with it. Some of his friends decided against continuing with Spanish because they had not liked the Spanish teacher in 8th grade; they say they chose such and such language because the class was said to be "fun" or the teacher was a well-liked person. That seems a not atypical teenager's kind of logic.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 12:35 pm: Edit

When I was in school teh languages offered were "French Spanish, German and Russian".
Now if a school offers only one language as several do, it is usally Spanish.
My daughters school offers Spanish, French and German ( Latin is required for at least two years of middle school).
She took 5 years of Spanish not taking a lang in college, but she will need French or German for grad school.

Other schools offer an Asian Lnguage usually Japanese and often ASL as well. I think the reason why schools focus on Asian lang is that more people in this area speak them than German by far. French is also one of the top 10 world languages while German is not. Mandarin of course is spoken by the most people, she took that in grade school, but it is difficult for most adults to pick up. I couldn't even hear the difference in tones.
Several high schools here offer Latin past two years, but it can be difficult to find teachers. My younger daughters school even had difficulty finding a Spanish teacher, the principal has just hired teachers from the Berlitz school for this term. ( not sure how she got around the teacher union)

By Sac (Sac) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Some random additions:

I suspect the attachment of American high schools to teaching French is based on the tradition that evolved from British schools to our schools in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. My parents took Latin and French at Boston Latin School in the 1920s. I wanted to take Spanish, but they insisted I take Latin and French. My grandmother, educated in Lithuania, took French. It's what educated people did.

Others know more about this, but I remember learning that in French colonies, people were rewarded for education in the French language and culture with much more acceptance by France than colonists in English and German colonies received no matter how well they spoke English or German. French has a long tradition of being a lingua franca.

Latin has gone by the wayside in many places, but French remains because parents expect it and because people train to become French teachers. French vs Spanish in high schools used to differentiate the college bound kids from the non-college bound kids, since French was not many students' first language and it is considered harder. Spanish, of course, has come into its own because of demographic changes. I tried to talk my son into taking Spanish instead of French, but he didn't like the Spanish teacher in elementary school (as someone mentioned, the logic of a teenager) and so insisted on French, which he also dislikes. He would have loved to take Chinese.

My son's high school offers French, Spanish and Japanese. Schools geared up for Japanese when that was the hot economy. They won't drop it for a while. I think there is often a lag time. At some point there will be more teachers training in teaching Mandarin and that may well replace Japanese at high schools. However, there are so many Chinese-Americans who are bilingual, compared to Japanese-Americans, that I don't believe there will be the same push to train students here in Chinese. I remember a NYT magazine article about students applying to Harvard in which a young woman who had learned Chinese fluently was told it didn't help her application, since Harvard already had plenty of people who were bilingual in Mandarin.

Anybody want to place any bets that the next hot language will be Arabic?

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Sac:

I am very surprised that the young woman's fluency in Chinese was not considered an asset. Yes, Harvard (and a lot of other colleges) have plenty of students who are bilingual in Mandarin. But that is not the point. The point is that she stuck with a language long enough to acquire fluency in it, and that she chose one that was somewhat unusual for her. It really is too bad.

As for Arabic, previous government policies did not promote its study. Middle Eastern studies were held in suspicion (remember the flap over the assigning of the Q'uran at UNC last year?); this had an effect on language studies, since people who wanat to learn a language also study the history and culture of the country. Right now, there are not enough Arabic speakers to go around. By the time there are, another hot spot may have developed.

By Sac (Sac) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Marite,
The Chinese fluency question gets back to what colleges look for in admissions. They say what they want is exactly as you put it, that students pick something unusual or hard and stick with it to the point of mastery. That tells them something important about the student. However, the truth is that in their goal of balancing the student body, colleges are looking at what skill was mastered. Too many Chinese speakers. Well, then, especially for Harvard, it's not difficult to find someone else with similar academic stats who chose to master Serbo-Croatian, bassoon, or rowing instead. I'm beginning to think for top students the strategy is not to apply to a few reaches, matches, and safeties, but to apply to many, many reaches, in the hopes that at one their specialized niche has not already been filled.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Sigh. This whole discussion is making me wistful about my high school and how language instruction has gone down hill. ETHS offered: French, Spanish, German, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Latin, Greek, Italian, Hebrew....

By Perry (Perry) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I believe I read that the U.S. Statement is funneling money to select universities to bolster students with foreign language skills. I recall that my daughter received a few letters from a University somewhere in the South mentioning the State Department's program.

It's interesting to note that the U.S. domestic and foreign intelligence serviecs are scrambling to recruit people with the right language abilities, especially Arabic. Given the present world situation, I suspect that they will be doing so for some time to come.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:14 am: Edit

Perry:

Is the program the NSEP? It was begun in the mid 1990s. It was launched by David Borden, a long-time member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. It carries a government service commitment of two years for recipients. It has had a very complicated relationship with universities because of its governance structure and the fear that recipients might be perceived as US government agents in the field. This was a particular concern of the Middle Eastern Studies community, so it has not done a lot to foster the study of Arabic.

By Soraji (Soraji) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:25 am: Edit

Northstarmom, I am the daughter of a Korean mother and valedictorian father. Korean mamas are notoriously known for being people who push their children to the edge and sometimes even over to get perfect grades. Since I have first-hand experience, I can give you quite a bit of insight.

Basically, how the majority (Not saying all if you are a child of a Korean family. This is just the majority... I live in South Korea so 80% of my friends are of asian descent) of Korean parents get their children to be amazingly great at taking tests, grades, etc. is through mental ... well, "stimulation" if you will. It can be hurtful sometimes since they can push too hard.

When I was in preschool, I told my Mom I wanted to be an astronaut. She told me that was a bad idea. To be sucessful and happy, I would HAVE to become a doctor or a lawyer. That way I'd make a lot of money and have a happy life. Or so she said... She imprinted this on my mind followed by extra study sessions, tons of stress, the lectures (which usually consisted of "Why can't you be like _______ who has perfect grades?" ext.

Basically, it's a mental thing. It is typical in many Asian cultures for parents to push their children to bring honor upon their family. In my case, if I didn't do well, I'd shame the family, be a failure, etc. I think, honestly it's more negative reinforcement than positive.

Fortunately for myself, I never went to the extremes with myself forcing myself to do things I knew I couldn't possibly do.

I'm 16, I have a 4.0, and I'm thinking about colleges already. While I know I'll never go to Harvard or Standford like my Mom wants, nor will I probably be a doctor or a lawyer, I've realized that the best kind of motivation you parents can give your children is by starting young and staying with them the entire way. Don't give up on them, but don't baby them either! From a young age, promote studying and learning. Take your child to educational places and have them learn a second language at a VERY young age. (You have no idea how much this will help you in the long run!) Encourage your child to read... teach them advanced studies even if they're only in Elementary school.

In High school, tell them as their becoming freshmen that while it doesn't seem like it matters now, the grades and everything they do then will drastically effect them later down the road. Help them out in getting motivated, but don't push too hard. Help them study and be supportive. Don't let them take the easy way out, but don't force them to be the next Einstein either. If things go well, I'm sure they'll be sucessful!

As for me, I kind of wish I had more pushing in a way. My Mom kind of cut me some slack once my two younger sisters were born. At the time, I thought it was a blessing, but then one might realize, as I did, it might've been a curse. If I had been a little more focused in high school, I could have done even better than I've done up till now.

So yeah, end of miniature essay. Good luck to all you parents!

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 08:32 am: Edit

It sounds so simple. Push hard, stay involved, followup. But what do you do when you say now it is time to do homework and they say no? You followup (when does that become nagging)and say no screens now because it is time to sit down and study. Screens are turned off and they play with ugio cards, hang in the bathroom, rearrange their socks, anything but study. You try positive motivation and negative consequences and the kid doesn't seem to care if the work is done or not. You let them go to school with half done work figuring the teacher will have consequences and the kid's ego will be bothered to hand in sloppy, half done work but that isn't a deterent either.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 09:20 am: Edit

Soraji,

What a wonderful summary. Thank you very much for the insight. I found your comments regarding honor for the family to be very helpful, as that comment puts the pressures in a context, a context that is difficult for many of us westerners (with our spread out, sometimes disfunctional families) to understand.

Momoffour, Soraji's message did not sound simple to me. I did not hear a message about pushing, only a comment at the end. Just my $0.02.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 09:46 am: Edit

Of course it is not simple. I admire greatly the families that succeed in instilling in their children the desire to succeed and honor the family. It's just another frustrating night of homework and morning for me.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:06 pm: Edit

I grew up in a not so great area of Los Angeles. My high school was and still is fair to poor in quality. The ethnic mix was white, hispanic(english speaking parents), large population of Filipino and Japanese and a fair number of Samoans. Very few of my classmates went away to college. A few went on basketball or football scholarships. Most of these did not finish. I think they were not academically prepared. I was the only one of my friends who went away. My Dad had been disabled from the military and I received assistance from the government. My friends were all bright. A few took a few courses at the cc but nothing from there. The families did not encourage them. They needed to go to work and begin earning a living and helping the family out. Their parents had not gone to college.
The asian students were different. The Japanese all went to UCLA,UCI and a few to USC. The filipinos to Long Beach State. All remained living at home. Most also were encouraged to study sciences. The filipino girls I was friends with were basically told you live at home till marriage. They also were told they needed to study nursing. Study for a career not for knowledge.
Just last week at my Mom's funeral I spoke with the Asian Mom of a friend of mine about this subject. Her feeling was that the value of education in asian families can not be transfered to a non-asian fanily. The issues of respect for your elders goes back generations in families. This plays a huge part in who an asian student is. She noted that as her children's friends have intermarried that value of respect has been watered down. The asian friends I had were not allowed to date in high school. School work always came first. They did what their parents told them no questions asked.
This is I realize a simplification of a complex issue.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Asian families do not have the monopoly on valuing education. I have seen families in every ethnic group who have the work ethics that are being attributable to asians in general. I read somewhere that "asians are today's Jews" in response to an article that discussed the asian family work/education ethic and compared to the Jewish family situation from the prior generation. There are those who say this still holds. The ethnic group I see now that is making huge strides in the educational and music front is the Eastern European one. A lot of former Yugoslavian, Soviet, Eastern Bloc immigrants are achieving the highest levels of accomplishment.
It seems to me that after a generation or two in the US, the rules become less rigid and the kids less obedient.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:51 pm: Edit

The socioeconomic background of the immigrant families needs to be taken into account. My hunch is that by and large, immigrants from the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe are from middle class background and highly educated. I remember a time when many taxi drivers in the Boston area were Soviet Jews with engineering degrees who could discuss literature in several different languages. They'd been discriminated against in the USSR, but could find no work that was commensurate with their talents in the US. They definitely valued education and had high epectations of their children. There is a thriving Russian math school in a Boston suburb. Many Asian families who have immigrated to the US are similarly from educated backgrounds. Immigrants from Latin America probably come from far more humble backgrounds and are less able to help their children with school. I have noticed that Hispanic students are more likely to be asked by their parents to contribute to household expenses by taking on jobs than students from other backgrounds.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Marite,

Your comments regarding SES of immigrants is partly true, but the story more complex. In the mid '90s, when I still lived in Texas (Hi, Xiggi..) there was discussion at the state level regarding differing cultural attitudes toward education in the latino community, even well after establishment. You may argue that the roots of the latino community are still lower SES. That may well be. But, as you pointed out in your own post, some groups are much more likely to sacrifice educational opportunity for current income than others.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I have just come from observing a homeschool yoga class. I know two of the families who attend this class. One mother has a 4 y/o d and a 6y/o s. She believes in "positive" discipline. Her s was running all over the place and completely ignoring his mother's remarks to please sit down now, please we don't run in this room, please put your towel on the floor now or I will need to hold it for you which she eventually did take it from him. This child in our ps would be labeled adhd and suggested to be put on ritalin. I sat there and wondered what would an asian mother do in this situation. What is the rate of adhd in the asian pop vs hispanic vs white vs black?

By Financelad (Financelad) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Yea there is an ASIAN SAT prep thing near my house. they dont use the "American" way to teach them. They use different set of strategies and lesson plans. They dont do stuff like Process of ELimination or Eyeballing or what not. They just get down dirty with the whole test and you'll solve them.


They are a strong community and they just want to teach their kids their ways of learning.

I kno this because I used to live in ASIA (INDIA) and we have a totally different learning environment. ALSO, these test prep area welcomes non-asian students. its a win-win thing

By May_1 (May_1) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 04:47 am: Edit

This is just a personal anecdote: I found that many of the symptoms of ADHD seem to be "cured" with a belt and firm discipline as much, if not more so, than with ritalin.

As said before, asians do not have a monopoly on discipline. I for one, am the black child of two immigrants (they been here for about 30+ years). Education and discipline are just as present in African families (dad was from West Africa). I believe many of the high scoring black students on this site are Nigerian (Neo, Neona, et al.). Many of my Nigerian-American friends (I'm not Nigerian) have excellent (1450+) scores and almost all have perfect GPAs with multiple APs.

College is as much an option as high school. It was never a matter of "if," but rather of which Top 10 school I would be attending. Stellar performance was not rewarded, but merely expected. If the entire class failed a test, that was no excuse for me to do poorly. Looking back, I know it was strict and totalitarian, but necessary.

By Pinkcrayon (Pinkcrayon) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 06:13 am: Edit

My own anecdote in addition to May 1's:
I find it sad that many kids today (from first hand experience at my school) are drugged up on ritalin and such for ADHD or other similar problems, when the situation could've been solved with firmer discipline as a child. I know most of these cases probably would not have been, but many would've.

-----------

I am a first generation Chinese daughter of two immigrants. My own motivation to succeed in school/life comes from a desire to 1)make the most of what my parents have given me, and 2) please my parents. The second is not as horrible as it sounds. Every day my parents wake up at an ungodly hour just to commute one-two hours to work. The only reason they moved so far away from their jobs was to allow my siblings and I to go to a good public school. So, every time I bring home my report card, I always feel disappointed by that one B or B+, which then pushes my own self to do better. My parents have sacrificed so much to do what they can to ensure a good future for me.

I believe that the negative discipline I received played a great part in the way I am now. My father was a great force when he was angry, he seemed like a towering giant and his anger made you shrink back. He would discipline with a couple of smacks across the hands with a ruler. They would only hurt during the initial sting, the more terrifying part was his anger and underlying disappointment.

On the other hand, (I guess my parents gradually grew tired from all the energy exerted at work and at home disciplining) my younger brother grew up with a looser set of rules, and along with it, a gentler form of discipline. While my one or two B's in school resulted in a long, steely lecture, his were accepted, as B's were most definitely better than his C+/B- average. I feel that if my brother had been more firmly disciplined as a child, he would heed my father's countless lectures and do what he could to succeed. I know he is smart, he shows his intelligence in the most random places, but nevertheless it's there. He is just lazy, having had a weaker push , and quite frankly, being less terrified of my father (and thus, no inner feeling of having to please) as a child. My sister and I were the ones with the responsibility to do well in school and become successful.

I grew up with the understanding that failure was not an option, and the mantra of "Honor, Duty, Responsibility." Questioning my parents was not an option (of course I do now, ;) ), as respect for your elders is understood and extremely important, as is honor.

I now appreciate my parents to the fullest, and know that what they did was right and only done to make me be the best I could be, as cliche as that sounds.

----------

Momoffour-
If that had been me running around, my mom probably would have called me over, whispered an angry comment/lecture/lesson, and probably add a pinch too. Then I would be too afraid of her wrath and the threat of more pinches to keep acting up, lol.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Great post. Thanks.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Child abuse- whether it gets the results the parents want or not- is iilegal in this country.
HItting a child with a weapon is child abuse
Physical violence requires no intelligence, it is the lower brain stem model of parenting
http://modelminority.com/article469.html

http://web.mit.edu/pampi/www/Projects/indo/2_10.html

http://www.atask.org/

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Yea there is an ASIAN SAT prep thing near my house. they dont use the "American" way to teach them. They use different set of strategies and lesson plans. They dont do stuff like Process of ELimination or Eyeballing or what not. They just get down dirty with the whole test and you'll solve them.

Financelad, since the original thread title is about College Prep, I'll address that. The SAT is NOT a math or english exam. It is a REASONING SKILLS test. In that regard, POE and eyeballing are a critical part of the test because it can deliver the answer FASTER.

The time constraints are critical for the SAT. Why do you think that so many students are trying to get extended time? Because a less than average student could easily ace the math portion and do extremely well on the verbal when the time factor is removed.

For the vast majority of students, the recognition of patterns and the development of sound strategies will yield much better results on the SAT than working out the problems in full.

By May_1 (May_1) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Emerald...

Lower brain stem or not, it certainly gets the job done. At least I'm not running the streets and at least I have firm goals and the discipline to achieve them, which often can't be said for some black males...

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

"I have just come from observing a homeschool yoga class. I know two of the families who attend this class. One mother has a 4 y/o d and a 6y/o s. She believes in "positive" discipline. Her s was running all over the place and completely ignoring his mother's remarks to please sit down now, please we don't run in this room, please put your towel on the floor now or I will need to hold it for you which she eventually did take it from him. This child in our ps would be labeled adhd and suggested to be put on ritalin."

It strikes me that the example of parenting described above is unacceptable both for the child who is essentially being taught that anything he does is okay and the adults who are made to suffer from the child's misbehavior. If I were asked to say which is the most damaging to a child, a few strokes of a ruler on the hand or ritalin, I would say that medicating a child into submission is far more damaging. By the way,I have never spanked or pinched my kids. I have not needed to.

The discussion of corporal punishment, however, obscures an important point made by Pinkcrayon: that the fear of disappointing parents who are making huge sacrifices for their children's education is a far more important motivator than fear of corporal punishment and that close parental involvement in their children's education is a key to their success.

Let's not, however, get into racial stereotyping. No one group has the monopoly on gang membership.

By May_1 (May_1) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Marite...

On a reread I can see how that could taken as stereotyping, and I, of all people, wouldn't want that. That said, I feel torn. On one hand I break the sterotypes of a black male and try to inform my ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) friends that not all black males are like that. On the other hand, I see all of these black guys wasting their lives because they don't want to be seen as "acting white." It is a problem that needs to be addressed, certainly, but I digress...

Oh, yes, as a person who went to a school where the "Azn Thug" pop was substantial, I agree that no one group has the monopoly on gang membership.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

I would rather the student have internal motivation and work hard on schoolwork because they were interested in learning, not because they were afraid of some sort of punishment, whether it be corporal or emotional.

I also do not see that any one group has the market on gang membership cornered. actually in my area, Asian violence is much more common than in the black or hispanic community.

I also find it interesting that the choices of disciplining a child are limited to either medication or physical force.
Expecting a 4 or 6 year old to behave as an adult in a yoga class is unrealistic for most healthy active kids. Limiting choices works much better than either scolding constantly, drugging or swatting.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 10:16 pm: Edit

I agree that expecting a 4 or 6 year old to be quiet in a yoga class is unrealistic. However, for an adult to allow the child to disrupt a class is unacceptable. Furthermore, ineffectual chiding sets up expectations in the child that bad behavior will incur no consequences. That mother is teaching her child that it is okay to be a spoiled brat. How is the 4 year old to have internal motivation if parental signals undermine discipline and self-discipline? What will happen to that child and his classmates when he goes to school?

By Pinkcrayon (Pinkcrayon) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 08:16 am: Edit

Emerald- I would certainly not describe the method of discipline when I was a child as harmful to me in any way. Punishment was infrequent, only when I incurred it. Now, I am "too old" to receive that type of punishment, rather, a simple lecture from my parentals will produce the same effect.

Right now a kid (age 4) that I am babysitting is the most spoiled child. Her mother, an elementary school teacher, is the sweetest and kindest lady I have ever met. However, I think that her way of teaching her daughter is like that of a teacher-student. When the daughter acts up, i.e. yells at her friend because of an issue with sharing a barbie, the mother just takes her aside and tells her a "secret" about sharing in a happy tone. Whenever she disciplines her, her tone of voice is not very upset or angry.

The daughter, quite frankly, treats me like crap when she's angry or when I don't do what she wants right away (i.e. whines and stomps her feet when I didn't put her play jewelry on right away- I was helping her two year old brother out of the bath). Already I can see her brother following in her footsteps- he fell to the ground in the most dramatic way and proceeded to cry and kick his feet when I wouldn't give him more of his Halloween candy. Another part of it does have to do with the inordinate amount of television she watches, the cartoons that are on the reg. Nickelodeon channel actually teaches her some less-than-appealing behavior. She can do the whole roll eyes, hands up, glare thing. On the other hand, most of the time daughter is nice and a joy to be around.

By Momstheword (Momstheword) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 10:15 am: Edit

In reading this thread, the one thing that really stands out in my mind is the comment Mom60 made in the 11/20 post about the issue of respect going back in your family for generations. That seems like it could be a very powerful force to movitate kids to achieve. Quite different from cultures where kids seem to think it's all about ****them**** and their immediate whims, especially when this concept is reinforced by the parents.

By Mstee (Mstee) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit

It is interesting how some of the conversations on this board mirror conversations I have (usually in the car) with my two teens. We live in CA, so the "overachieving Asian" stereotype comes up now and then in conversation. I was telling my son that while non-Asian Americans often seem to value individuality over hard work, we do have the Protestant work ethic. Guess what. He didn't know what the Protestant work ethic is. . .That's what we get for moving out of the midwest. . .

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit

deferred reinforcment is not a difficult goal to achieve.
Students who work for grades, paychecks or for the 'aha" that comes at the end of a long problem set, all know the rewards of struggle and the frustrations of delayed reinforcement.
My daughters high school biology teacher ,teaches that to have an hypothesis be proved wrong, is more desired than one that is proved correct.
For if your hypothesis is proved correct, then it is merely reinforcing the way that you think the universe works, but it is only when your hypothesis is proved wrong that you learn something new, and can really start to explore.
Students that are taught to question assumptions, and learn for the sake of knowledge are likely to go farther, than those who are studying because they want to please their parents. I know so many students who are in majors that their parents chose, in schools that their parents chose, and those students are depressed to the point of injuring themselves because they have been taught it is wrong to have their own opinion. The parents would undoubtably be horrified that their children were depressed to that point, but it does not make it any less common.

Being an individual, has nothing to do with being spoiled.
Parents who dictate to their children after those children have reached adulthood, are not any more noble than those who feel they deserve every desire to be granted.

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 04:58 pm: Edit

It seems that the discussion is going on different tracks. Pinkcrayon, May 1 and I are talking about instilling discipline in very young children, as did Momoffour, whose message I responded to. Emeraldkity is discussing older students. At four, a love of learning is not usually the motivating force; at fourteen, a student should be motivated by more than fear of displeasing parents.

I agree that students who are taught to question assumptions, who want to learn for the sake of knowledge, do better, go further, etc... But this does not mean that such students can afford to have no discipline , or that they are not interested in pleasing their parents. Conversely, it does not mean that children who are well mannered and show deference to their parents have no imagination or creativity.
If we look at winners of major math and science competitions, we can see Asians are well represented. To win these, it takes a lot of imagination as well as hard work and discipline.
Finally, I suspect that Asian college students are not any more neurotic than students from other backgrounds.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 09:11 am: Edit

As far as preschool behavior, in my experience some of the biggest brats I knew turned out to be obedient, well mannered adults. In fact some of the asian kids I knew, and know are quite undisciplined as very young children. I've had Japanese families over my house quite a bit and was initially taken aback at how unruly they were and how the parents just sat back and accepted it.
But when the time came for academic performance the squeeze was on.
But going back to to children who misbehave like the ones described in that yoga class, that really comes down to a parenting issue. Due to the complexities of my life, I have had to take small children to places inappropriate for them and request behaviour that was a stretch for them. Sometimes it worked, sometimes we did not have a good evening. What I did most of the time, if the child could not behave, is immediatedly and quietly leave the scene with the child and we would sit in the car for the rest of the time, an even less appealing option since they would be strapped in. So their choices were to sit and watch a sibling at a gymnastics or dance or music or karate class with their goody bag of books, crayons, small toys,etc or sit strapped in the car in the parking lot until the lesson was over. My slowest child ( and he is a bit slow at learning) learned very quickly that he preferred to be in the middle of the action. We have left grocery stores with a full cartdstanding in the middle of the store because someone could not behave, and then had a misrable dinner of canned vegatables over rice with water to drink, no cereal the next day--no cereal, no milk so everyone eats some gruel, and everyone knows why the kitchen cupboards are bare. We then try the excursion again with the offender now sitting quietly in the cart. Unfortunately, I pay too with the extra time expended but it really seems to work. I have left some pretty high stakes events--birthday parties, ski day, things that hurt me, even as I hustled the offender and sometimes innocent sibling out of any activity. Even my little one now with ADHD is very, very careful with behaviour. He has spent two summers in a behaviour modification program and is also on a medication that is just one dose in the morning and it seems to work very well. Which does not mean we still do not get isolated episodes. But every one of my kids know (and husband too) that we are out the door if the warnings are not heeded, no matter how wonderful the event,how fancy the meal and the alternative is not attractive--we have sat in cold garages, and when we get home we do a nice long time out, because mom is no mood to deal with someone who ruined the afternoon, evening, you get the picture. I have been critisized as too harsh, but when you are with 9 kids, some with emotional, behaviour, learning disabled, immaturity issues, some just high testosterone boy of disparate ages, they have to understand that certain behaviour codes have to be observed or we do not belong in that place. My six year old with a host of behaviour and learning issues understands this very throrougly and he is better behaved than most kids without his problems. I do not strike the children and do not advocate this. I am a tiny, unphysical woman and the ten year old is already bigger that I am, and the kids have all been big,strong athletic types. If I had used physical force as one of my tools, that would have gone south very quickly. I do total physical restraining, a technique I was taught in dealing with disturbed children and adults, for the younger ones when things get out of control--a fight for instance, or total loss of temper, and have found that this is very effective. I've taught the older ones the same techniques to deal with their younger siblings and kids who get totally out of control. I have not done this in years, however. No need to. The biggest weapon I have had with the kids is insisting on the right thing and staying consistent. Though as they got older, they would rebel, they all could hear the refrain echoing in their heads and have always come to the conclusion that life is better with rules they know and someone who just very simply wants them to do the right thing.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 10:07 am: Edit

I think an important word in your post is consistent. I am needing to reinforce to my strongwilled son, age 10, that he is not ruler supreme of the world. When he starts an argument because he did not like my ruling on something telling him that the issue is non negotiable helps. The school wants him to start medication because he rebels in class and does not handle teasing from other kids. They mouth off at him and he walks out of the classroom and sits in the hallway. The teacher will tell him to return to the room for the lesson but he will refuse. Consequently he is falling behind. However if his karate teacher tells him to do something the response is "Yes sir" and he does whatever was asked so I know he is capable of behaving.

By Madhouse (Madhouse) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 06:17 pm: Edit

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE ASIAN KIDS STUDY THEIR CULTURE, LANGUAGE AND THE SATS?????????????????
AND BEHAVING GOOD???????????????????????????

DO YOU RATHER THEY GET TOGETHER AND DO RUGS AND JOIN GANGS????????????????????????

By May_1 (May_1) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 03:37 am: Edit

Calm down. There is nothing wrong with it. The entire point of this thread is to elucidate the intricacies of this honor-bound, demanding culture that ulimately yields high-scoring (if not independent-thinking) docile students with impressive resumes that are now disparagingly called "typically Asian."

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 09:32 am: Edit

Madhouse,

You said "DO YOU RATHER THEY GET TOGETHER AND DO RUGS AND JOIN GANGS"

Well, some do......

By Momcat (Momcat) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 10:57 am: Edit

What an interesting thread, glad I decided to read it.
Regarding languages, my S took Latin his first 3 years of h.s. but now, it's no longer offered. Part of the reason is the huge cutbacks in our too-large school district, but there was also an issue of finding an qualified instructor. Apparently Latin teachers are not very common and finding one that will teach in a financially strapped district is almost impossible. It's a shame though, he really enjoyed it.

I'd like to say that I love this comment by Marite:
But this does not mean that such students can afford to have no discipline , or that they are not interested in pleasing their parents. Conversely, it does not mean that children who are well mannered and show deference to their parents have no imagination or creativity.
While stereotypes sometimes exist for a reason, it's realizing that there are always exceptions to the rule that is most important.

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 11:09 am: Edit

Momcat:

Thanks for your nice comment. Regarding Latin, my S also enjoys it. We've been very fortunate in being able to hire a new Latin teacher when our previous one retired last year. I did read somewhere that there is a resurgence of interest in learning Latin, but alas, demand is ahead of supply!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 01:22 pm: Edit

The Latin teacher at my D's school retired after something like 30 years last year. Fortunately, they hired a new one that by accounts is pretty good.

By Momcat (Momcat) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Actually the one my son had (and loved) for the first two years also retired, forcing the school to bring in a teacher from another h.s. in our district the next year. She was a nightmare, but knowing that he should have at least 3 years of a language and no longer having time to start another, he stuck with her. She came into the class knowing how beloved the former Latin teacher was and insisting that his way of teaching was all wrong(!) At the parents meeting she informed us that it was doubtful that this class was as advanced as her class at her regular school. I was afraid she was going to fail the lot of them out of spite. He managed to somehow get a B out of her although he'd always gotten A's before. I was glad enough for the B!

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 03:28 pm: Edit

We also experienced different teaching styles. The first Latin teacher used an updated approach. Her replacement uses a more traditional one--one I am more familiar with--that focuses more on grammar and syntax rather than vocabulary acquisition. So she spent the first couple of months "reviewing." At the parent meeting, she had a hard time keeping her opinion of the previous curriculum to herself. Finally, though, she seems to have the class where she wants it to be.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

My D had a horrible situation her soph year. Freshman year was OK, because she had Latin in 7th grade, and plunged right into 2nd year HS latin, loved the catch up. The following year, all that was left was a combined 3rd-4th year class that my D found pretty unchallenging and something of a bore. So second semester, she enrolled in 2nd semester college latin at the Harvard Extension School and loved it. The next step was to skip HS latin, and fall of her Jr. year she took the next course, a combined upper undergrad/grad leve course in latin at the extension school. This was a huge jump, perhaps too big, as her fellow students were all HS latin teachers. Anyway, she survived the fall term but had to drop the spring term when AP exam prep hit. There just weren't enough hours in the day.

Just this morning, she announced that she's going to do self study, with the help of a tutor, for the Latin AP exam, now that college apps are near completion.

By Madhouse (Madhouse) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

"Well, some do......"

Wow, I've got nothing to say.
Actually, I do.

I think our American Society is intimidated by the Asian kids.
You should deserve what you worked for. If these Asian kids studied hard, it's only natural that they get the high scores and good resumes. And the other kids who are jealous should work just as hard to get the high scores too if they want it bad. But the problem is, most of them don't.(They think study is "nerdy" and a sign of "life lacking" So they bash about the "Typical Asian".

There's lot of Asian where I live. They are just as cool as, if not cooler than, my other friends. They are normal, talented, popular,independent, know how to have fun AND have good grades.

By Madhouse (Madhouse) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Don't be a hater.

Learn from the Asians.

By Wjk323 (Wjk323) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 08:48 am: Edit

Wow what a good topic!
Hopefully I can add some new "stuff" to what Soraji said.

As a representative of the Korean species, I know first hand that honor, wealth, and prestige are the most important values in the Asian/Korean society. We believe that getting grades and graduating from a prestigious college will guarantee us a successful and happy life. I see no correlation of this but it is imprinted in everybody's mind here in Korea. In addition, admissions process in Asia is different from the admissions process in the Western world. Admissions process in Korea is based in only ONE test. Grades, EC's, recommendations, etc are not required and a single test determines where you will end up in college. This test however covers everything you learned throughout highschool. This is the reason why asian parents are so "uptight" about the SAT's. They believe that scoring high in the SAT's will determine where his or her child will attend college.
As you know, Asians *are* prestige whores. I once did a survey about IVY leagues, here in Korea. I asked them questions such as: 1) List the 8 IVY leagues? 2) Where are these colleges located? 3) Where would you like your son/daughter to go to college?

Of the 300 people I surveyed NONE got the first two questions right? In the first question, many answered Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. Few answered Cornell and UPENN and NONE put Brown, Dartmouth, and Duke. However, Stanford came out as much as Harvard, Yale and Princeton. (and most of you know that Stanfors is not an IVY) As you can see, Koreans just tend to conform with society and sort of go with the flow. If somebody says that this certain college is prestigious then probably that person will go to his son or daughter to go that college and the nothing less. Regarding second question; Nobody got it right and the most frequent answer was Boston. And the survey showed that the majority would like their son or daughter to attend Harvard. (NOTE: I did survey in the streets, picking up random middle aged people)

This is the typical schedule of my 14 year old cousin. She wakes up at 7AM. Attends school till 3PM. Goes home, eats a quick lunch. Goes to violin lessons at 4PM-5PM Then goes to an academy till 8PM. Eats lunch her mother wrapped or buys a quick dinner in the streets. Attends another academy at 9PM. Finishes around 11PM and goes to the local library to finish her homework and comes back home around 1AM. *Then* she does academy homework and goes to sleep around 2 or 3AM. (This sounds really really crazy but it is true. She gets around 4 to 5 hours of sleep. And this is the typical Korean kid who *is* willing to study) Not to mention that Koreans go to school in Saturdays as well.
However, students who actually study are a minority. Most students attend classes just because they are forced or they simply just drop out of school because of stress/pressure.
A minority end up as gansters and prostitutes. While some commit suicide. (Korea has the second highest teenager suicide rates in Asia. I think Japan is the first)

Wow...I think I have written quite a bit. It might sound exaggerated but frankly I think I sugar coated it.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Wjk323,
Thanks so much for your detailed response.
Am I correct in thinking that Korean children also are brought up to believe that being academically successful is a way to show respect to their parents and ancestors? That their academic success or lack of success reflects upon the whole family?

In recently interviewing a Korean-American applicant for the Ivy that I attended, I was impressed by how much he respected his parents and grandparents' sacrifices that led to his being able to apply to an Ivy. I also was impressed that he seemed to view his working hard in school as honoring what his parents and grandparents had done.

Am I correct to assume that his attitude is a reflection of how he was raised?

What I have seen unfortunately too often is that American kids whose parents started out poor often have been raised by parents who seem to want to indulge their kids' every whim. The parents often seem to think that because they themselves didn't have certain luxuries while growing up, they now should give their kids every material good that the child's heart desires.

As a reesult, the children grow up feeling that the world owes them, and their parents owe them instead of the teen's feeling that they owe their parents hard work and success since the parents' hard work was what helped the teen have a comfortable life.

I'd be interested in hearing your and others' thoughts on this.

And thanks, everyone, for such a thoughtful discussion.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Ten years ago we hosted an adult exchange student from Korea who was here to improve his english for six weeks. He was the third son of three kids in his family. He said that in his family it was most important for him to succeed because he was the youngest son and if he succeeded it would show that his parents continued to instill the right values in all the kids not just in the oldest. He felt a great deal of pressure to succeed in the business world in order to honor his parents. This was a guy who was 30 and married with a child of his own.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

What I have seen unfortunately too often is that American kids whose parents started out poor often have been raised by parents who seem to want to indulge their kids' every whim. The parents often seem to think that because they themselves didn't have certain luxuries while growing up, they now should give their kids every material good that the child's heart desires.

What I see are parents who have a lower standard of living than they had growing up. However, these parents will make sacrifices so that their children do not suffer for the lack of income. We have a small house, and old cars, but we have funneled our resources into the childrens educations. Neither one of us went to college, as when we were growing up you could still make a decent living with out a college degree, but we are determined that our kids ahve opportunities that we didnt take advantage of.
I don't see many kids who are spoiled with things. While my kids have many things that I didn't have growing up, like computers, tape players and a bike of their own, they aren't spoiled, but I don't think they owe us, we are adults and it is our choice to spend our money on our kids. Rather I think it is our reponsibility to procure for them the best education that we can, and they are making the most of the opportunity.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 03:15 pm: Edit

EmeraldK, among the most important things I ever told my D was "We can't afford it." Understanding limits and being able to make good choices, yada yada....

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

I dont say often right off the bat "we can't afford it" I haven't really heard them ask for anything that was out of line ( or maybe my memory is going) When my 13 yr old recently expressed a wish to go on the middle school field trip to DC, I told her that it was a big expense but that if she really wanted to go, we would work together on fundraising activities so that she could.
My youngest is fashion consious but she is a good shopper and gets things that are going to get more use. I have finally convinced her that sometimes it is worth it to buy quality over saving money in the short run, but she still feels guilty over getting something new.
Sometimes I think I would rather have my kids think I can just run to the ATM to get more money.

Some families operate more top down, like my sisters family the parents make all the decisions ( well the father does) and there is no discussion. Some of the choices ( to me) have no logic behind them, like taking extended family vacations but then not allowing children to participate in any ecs because they don't have any money.
We have few hard and fast rules that we say "this is the way it is", however we do make family decisions about money and how we spend our time. This way is messier, and takes longer, but we try and teach skills like listening to points of view, and establishing criteria for decision making.
When they were younger I didn't feel the need to explain everything the way I see some parents do, it just isn't necessary. But when they were old enough to reason, I tried to explain out loud my reasoning process so that they could see that everything is a choice, whether you go about it halfassed, or well thought out.
It was very exciting to see their reasoning skills develop and watch them reflect the values that we have taught them.

By Wjk323 (Wjk323) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Northstarmom,

You are quite right in saying that being "academically successful is a way to show respect to their parents and ancestors." We, Koreans, have a ritual once a year honoring our ancestors, called "jesa." Koreans, and I guess most Asians treat their ancestors with utmost respect. Children in Korea are brought up to think, "If you study hard and go to a good university than you will bring honor and prestige to your family, thus also honoring your ancestors.

When one of my distant cousins got accepted to Harvard, he was treated as a celebrity. He came out in documentaries and talk-shows. Not to mention, job offers from Samsung, LG, SK Global, KB, etc (Top-notch Korean corporations) His parents were elevated to the highest circles of society and they were treated with utmost respect for raising a "perfect" child.

Just to add a personal note. I *am* korean but I was raised my entire life in an Latin American.
I attended an international school at a young age, and became accustomed to Western customs and values. I came to Korea about 6 months ago to get "back to my roots" and just build up a better resume for college. You have no idea how happy and grateful I am for being raised in a Western society, away from superficial values. I am however slowly becoming brain washed. I feel that this site as well as my parents, relatives, and Korean society itself is trying to tell me that college *is* the most important thing in life. Its funny, when I showed my relatives some of my colleges, the first thing they asked me is "What? No Harvard..." They now think that I am a party animal, who wastes his time. Blah blah blah blah. Later, I showed them colleges such as Amherst (just for fun) and Swarthmore and I *knew* they were thinking, "I've never heard of it, therefore they must be bad schools." I told them "No.. no.. they are liberal arts school" and they simply told me "You wanna study the *arts*...oh no please stay away from that junk and study science, medicine, or become a lawyer. You will have a better life..."

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Wjk323,
This is a little off topic, but I am curious. Are non Korean Americans who are Harvard grads treated as celebrities in Korea?
I am wondering whether during the 2 days that I spent in Korea about 20 years ago, I would have been treated with more warmth if I had announced myself as a Harvard grad.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 12:52 am: Edit

Hehe, my good friend wjk323 is back from the farm! That was a short hiatus.

Wjk323, could also tell us a bit about how a typical young Korean entertains himself, how much free TV is available in Korea, and -if not too thought provoking- what happens to students who do NOT make the grades and do not gain acceptance to the Korean or foreign top universities.

I am asking this because I recently saw a TV show that portrayed the return of a college student to Korea. Despite the obvious censure by the Korean government, the show was painting a pretty bleak picture. It seems to me that when attempting to extol the merits of one society's approach to education, we should also discuss the pitfalls.

By Wjk323 (Wjk323) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 03:25 am: Edit

Hahaha...Xiggi.

Actually I *am* still in the good ol' countryside. I did not know that there was internet connection here as well. As you can see, I am avoiding the SAT/ACT discussion forum, for fear of being called a liar.

Northstarmom: Hmm... hopefully you enjoyed your visit to my polluted/traffic/overcrowded country. I do not know how Koreans were 20 years ago, but I am pretty sure that if you told a Korean that you attended Harvard *now*, you would probably get a "WOW! Can you tutor my son/daughter?" But just out of curiosity you said, --I am wondering whether during the 2 days that I spent in Korea about 20 years ago, I would have been treated with more warmth if I had announced myself as a Harvard grad.--
Were people really rude to you or was there not enough "warmth" in your visit 20 years ago? (Just curious)

Xiggi: As I said before, *only* a minority of students fit the so-called asian stereotype. The typical Korean spends most of his time playing games. Internet connection is everywhere here in Korea. And due to the advent of pc bang (sort of like cafe internet) the majority of students go to these places and spend the whole day playing games. I guess Koreans do the same stuff as the typical Westerners, except for the fact that they are not "hooked" on internet and games.
Now, for your second question. Students who do not make the grades go to unknown/party schools. There are schools for almost everybody, even highschool dropouts. But, out of the hundreds of colleges here in Korea, only 3 are known and are regarded as prestigious. (Seoul University, Yonsei University, and Goro University) Most of the top-notch corporations are graduates from these schools and many students who do not go to these schools WILL have a difficult time getting jobs and even if they are lucky to find a job, they will probably start at the lowest end of the hierarchy.
However, many who are unlucky to afford a college education either join gangs (males) or become prostitutes. Prostitution *is* illegal in Korea but the law is not enforced. Many 18-21 years olds will lie about their age to join bars or work as prostitutes so that they can pay for their college education.

I sound very "unpatriotic," but this is because having lived in a Western society, I find most of the Korean "ways" either wrong or very superficial. There really are a lot of pitfalls in my society, and education is one of them.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 09:48 am: Edit

Wjk,
Please say more about the ritual honoring ancestors. It sounds like a wonderful idea that could be adapted by nonKorean American families.

I visited Korea close to 20 years ago when for fun, I took a space available military flight when I was between duty stations. I had 27 days in which I could travel, and I tried to get as far as I could, and Korea was where I ended up.

I did not have a good experience. However, I did not stay long, and I think that I probably saw a part of the country that was not reflective of the country as a whole. I think I was in Osan, which was the city near a military base called Pusan.

On my flight over, I was seated next to a young US enlisted woman, who talked to me about how horrible Korea is for women, and how men could physically attack women at will. She said that if a man was hitting a woman, if he told onlookers she was his wife, everyone would keep walking.

On my other side was a fat, retired enlisted man who seemed to be looking forward to Korea as a way to get laid by beautiful young women.

Because I was flying space available, and could literally have ended up anywhere in the world, I was not able to research the country before getting on the plane.

When I got to Korea, and checked into a hotel, I also experienced what appeared to me to be racial or possibly sex discrimination. I am a black woman, and according to military regs, was dressed in my Navy officer's uniform. It should have been very evident that I was unlikely to stiff the hotel manager. However, despite the hotel's saying they took a credit card, and my having cards, I had to pay for my predicted stay up front in cash although white males out of uniform or in enlisted uniform did not have to do this.

The rest of my stay there, I was hounded by vendors as I walked through the streets. The constant hawking was irritating. I know,though, that such behaviors are typical of very tourist-based economies all over the world.

I considered going to Seoul, but when I found I could easily catch a military hop to Japan, I quickly did so.

Anyway, based on what you've posted, I'm thinking that I probably would have seen a different side of Korea if I had ditched my military uniform and worn a Harvard T-shirt and introduced myself to the hotel manager by telling about my affiliation as an officer with the DC Radcliffe Club, which I was at the time.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 10:22 am: Edit

Northstarmom:

Not a Korean, but I have dealt with many Korean students, and in particular female Korean students. Korean women are known to be self-reliant and independent; yet, I have heard time and again that young Korean women, upon graduating from college have a very hard time getting jobs commensurate with their skills. This happens to young women with degrees from the best Korean or American universities, and even with great family connections (quite often the relatives are reluctant to exert their influence on behalf of females, whereas they have no compunction in doing so for males).

Koreans, however, are better off than Japanese. Twenty-five years ago, I met a young Japanese woman who was trying to get a Ph.D. degree in Japanese studies from a British university. She was married to a Scandinavian student who was totally supportive of her ambitions. Unfortunately, there was only one specialist in her field at that university, and he was Japanese. He was adamant that her duty was to stay home and take care of her husband. He refused to act as her advisor, and there was nothing she could do about it, or that the university was willing to do about it. So she came to the US where no one told her that her job was to be a good wife, and she succeeded in getting her Ph.D.

As for your reception in Korea, it is not clear what would have happened if you had introduced yourself as a Harvard-Radcliffe graduate. Harvard's international profile is of fairly recent date. I remember being in France in the early 1970s and trying to get into a cinema with my international student ID. The young man at the ticket counter asked me where I was studying and I said Harvard. He said: "Wow. Everybody knows about Harvard Business School." When I told him I was attending the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, he blinked and said he did not know there was anything more to Harvard beyond the B school! So much for prestige--but I did enjoy the movie.