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My 5th grade son is a beginner on the clarinet. He tells me he hates to play and wants to quit whenever it is time to practice. I think he expects to be an expert, and since he doesn't sound like Benny Goodman yet he wants to give up. I've told him he has to stick it out till the end of the schoolyear. At this point it is as much about getting him to understand that sometimes we have to do things we don't like because that's life (I personally hate to iron.) I never studied any kind of instrument. Is this battle worth fighting?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 04:45 pm: Edit

OK, here are my two cents. I do have two kids who each play two instruments and started with music at a young age. Admittedly, they both really like it though. Is this the first year your son has taken an instrument? Whose idea was it? If it is his first year, yes, I would encourage him to stick with it at least til the end of the year to really be able to say he gave it a try and can assess whether or not he likes it. It should not be entirely a battle. Yes, sometimes practicing for some kids does need prodding but the child should have some interest in the overall process. If this is your son's first year, you are right in that he might be discouraged at how little he can play yet and how he is not yet sounding all that hot. On that end of things....some suggestions are to have a talk about what it takes for anyone to get to that point. Also, share this issue with his instructor and ask her to maybe discuss some goals and the process he needs to do to reach those goals. Some of these goals could be short term. Maybe she can find some complete songs for him to play even at the simplest levels.....I know these exist...Disney and the like....so he feels a sense of accomplishment and is not just playing something dull or not a real song. Another idea is to have him chat with an older student....say in high school, who plays clarinet and talk about how he/she went through the early stage but is glad he/she stuck with it cause now look what he can do. Have your son attend a middle or high school concert and see what can result after just a couple years. There are steps one must take to get to that point, yada yada.

However, I do not agree with one sentiment in your post...and that is, to make him do it cause we all have to things in life that we do not like to do. That sentiment works well when it is something we MUST do, be it math or the dishes. But playing an instrument is an optional activity. In that regard, I think if after one year of trying, your son has a heart to heart talk about really disliking clarinet, and perhaps all music (if it is just clarinet, maybe he can switch and try something like drums), then ask what other interests he might want to pursue. Again, I am not sure how your son first started....like whether or not this was an option or he was made to take an instrument. But if he was ok with the idea initially and is simply frustrated that he cannot play well yet, then the advice I gave at the start might work. If it continues to be a battle after a year, I think you might want to reassess and choose something else equally as worthwhile. I am not sure if your battles are over playing music or just not feeling like practicing. If it is merely a practice issue, then the lesson to be taught is that all things take practice, be it ice skating or instrument playing....you do not get better without putting in practice. But if he hates music all together, that is a different story. Talk with the teacher some more and she might have some advice as well. It might just be the instrument itself and maybe something like guitar or drums suits him more, hard to say.

Well, that's about it. As I type this, my 17 year old is practicing piano for her lesson tonight. The years of work have paid off and she is glad she stuck with it (and clarinet too). But it was never a battle, and so you might want to reassess if it is merely a practice issue or a dislike of music itself. There are many worthwhile ECs to get involved in, and maybe music is not his thing. Let us know how it goes. Isn't raising kids a blast? ;-)
Susan

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I had the opposite experience with my D, now a senior. She pushed us in 2nd grade for months to let her take violin lessons. I still have no idea why. Anyway, she's not put it down since then.

In retrospect, I think she did it because she loves challenges, and the violin offers plenty of challenge.

I never had any musical training either, and really do not regret it, even when I see my D have so much fun. I've done a lot of other things I enjoy.

If you find it is a battle for every practice with your son, I'd ask whether it is worth the fight? Did he pick clarinet? Would he prefer something else? (other than percussion, perhaps...) Ya gotta choose yer battles....

By Sac (Sac) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 04:55 pm: Edit

I admit that with our oldest, we insisted in elementary school that she pick something to do as an extracurricular and offered a couple of choices which included piano. She chose piano lessons. Then, I'd bribe her with a trip to the record store every time she finished a piano book. I'd sit in the living room every time she practiced and applaud. We struggled through a couple of years of this, then let her quit. So, when no. 2 came along, we waited for the impetus to come from him. He listened with us to the jazz station which was on in the car all the time, asked what instrument was playing, and begged for saxophone lessons for a year before we said yes. Nine years later, he's still at it and it's a big part of his life.

So, the question is, was it the difference in approach or just the fact that he was more musical? I think it was a combination of the fact that he is, indeed, more musical and our good fortune in finding a teacher for him who really clicked. When that teacher stopped being fun, we told him to find himself another one and he did, asking someone at jazz camp if he would give private lessons. Child number one, now grown, once said she wished we had made her stick with piano. Well, there are only so many battles you can fight and, it's now obvious in comparison, that music did not mean the same thing to her it meant to our son. On the other hand, she stuck with art, all the way through college, while our son is colorblind.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 05:19 pm: Edit

To echo what Massdad said, admittedly my kids pushed us as far as ECs go. They do not want to quit them and thus run us ragged! Sometimes when people see my kids so active they assume we pushed our kids to do these things but quite the opposite is true. They push us! However, I do understand that there are some kids who need some prodding to find their own magical interests. If the child loves something, you surely will know it. They will not want to ever give it up! In fact, I find as they get older, the committment to the activity becomes greater in terms of time and expectations. At some point, there are just so many hours in a day!
Susan

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:12 pm: Edit

I haven't read the others' responses, but I'll quickly put in what I think, being as I'm a working musician. (Just home from opera, in fact!)

Does your son take private lessons? If not, get him some. There are several reasons, the first being that he'll learn a lot of bad habits without a good teacher. The second is that that teacher can then give you an opinion about your son's abilities and about his attitude. The third is that a good teacher should motivate, encourage and challenge your son. The fourth is that he'll hear a good sound and be able to try and match that rather than the school instruments he probably hears (if your school has a music program.) A teacher should 1) play his/her instrument with students 2) be honest with parents (eventually) if you are wasting money 3) be positive but demanding with the student 4) recognize when to push and when to hold back. (Of course there's more to it than all that, but those come to mind immediately.) If the teacher never plays, find another one!

I have had students who hate oboe. I refuse to teach them. It's nearly impossible to go anywhere with music if someone hates what he is doing. It's miserable for the teacher as well!

You might also check and see if he likes the SOUND of the clarinet! A person must enjoy the sound that his instrument is producing. Otherwise it's pointless. Would he prefer a different instrument? Say, perhaps ... oboe?! (Actually I dont' begin 5th graders on oboe unless they are rather large for their age and a bit more mature than the average kiddo; oboe is a frustrating instrument to begin with.)

Rambling off ... but feel free to ask me questions if you'd like (just don't try emailing me from my profile ... I haven't figured out how to change that now defunct email address yet!)

Hmmm ... rereading my post ... sorry about the numbering. I'm 1) sorry to be so anal 2) good with numbers up through 4 3) exhausted from rehearsal 4) very annoying sometimes.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

A mixture of the above situations here:

D started French horn in 6th grade...she wanted oboe but they only gave the oboe to students who already knew how to play one instrument and read music and she was a novice. At the end of the first year in school, she got a private teacher for the expected private lessons.

At some point, lessons became a chore and, balancing with ballet, it became difficult but we negotiated in advance how much practice was reasonable...it wound up being Fri/Sat/Sun and two days in the middle of the week. Increasing homework loads cut that latter to one and then none.

But. She stuck with it, if being someone cajoled to do so, and got her playing to the point where she really enjoys it enough to do the practice...playing is always more enjoyable than practicing. She now looks forward to her weekly lesson and is *giving* a weekly lesson to a 5th-grader shortly thereafter.

With an instrument, you've got to stick through the point where it's not easy, not fun, and not good. (Another non-musician parent here.)

One down thought on the clarinet: it's much more difficult to become *good* on the clarinet, relatively speaking, because there are just so many of them. French horn was a good slightly-off-the-beaten-track instrument for my D, something that allowed her to get to a higher level than if she had been playing flute or clarinet.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Here's my $.02

If you are interested in encouraging him, figure out some way for him to see someone who's good at whatever it is, and who enjoys it. Seeing the possibilities is a much better motivator than trying to preach to him that he'll thank you someday. How many athletes would be as interested in their sports if they hadnt seen the best players at some point---or at least those much more advanced than one is in 5th grade?

I saw Pete Fountain play when I was a grownup and there was no chance to go back and change my musical history. But if I had seem him play years before it might have had a different effect. Absolutely astounding!!!!! Find out who the best clarinetists in the area are and where you could hear them. (Maybe its a private instructor, as someone said.) Close up and personal is much better than 50 rows back at a concert.

And try to find someone who is not only good, but who likes it. People who smile a lot when they do what they do are great inspirations to all of us, young and old. Good luck.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:40 pm: Edit

My daughter started piano quite young and enjoyed it for some years. During middle school her interest waned and she barely practiced for extended periods of time. The lesson arrangement where she studied piano was a verbal contract for lessons from Sept. - June with an option of taking through the summer if she wished.

My yearly deal with the D was that if she started the contractual period she would finish it and in June could stop for good. Every year she would decide to continue....and there were a couple of years that I swear she only practiced a cumulative ten hours. Honestly, there were times that I was going to kill her....why continue something that she seemingly was not enjoying? I don't know why she hung in there.....I was happy that she continued but did not push it in the least. Fortunately she had a wonderfully understanding instructor who enjoyed working with her.

Fast forward to college. Without discussing it with the parental units she auditioned for the music department at school and was allowed to study piano for credit as a non major. Her lesson is the highlight of her week.
Go figure.

Perhaps hanging in until the end of the school year might get your son over the hump.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:53 pm: Edit

Take home point from these posts:

- motivation comes from within

- we parents really do have limits regarding our influence on our kids.

By Shitakirimusume (Shitakirimusume) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:03 am: Edit

You guys are clueless.

I don't feel like arguing anymore.

But I think I am more qualified for this topic.

My two sisters are music profs at Germany
My wife was a competitive pianist. Her mother was
a piano teacher. I myself play the piano.
We have 4 pianos at home and lots of other
music instruments.

All my children have perfect pitch. Play the piano
and strings.

Anyway
Is is better to start young age especially for perfect pitch. (even 3 years old)

Need a lot of guidance from the parents.

>Motivation comes form within.

For 3-4 years old child, it is hard. Although
you can try to make it fun but sometimes ....

They will appreciate when they get old like my
children.


I think I have mentioned about sport as well.
If you do music or sport for fun as recreation,
it will be a different story.

And to me most of your D&S's activities are recreational.
No depth.

Bye. As I said I will be back in Dec.
This topic drew my attention.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 10:44 am: Edit

Shitakiri writes:
"You guys are clueless."

I think your posts would be more valid if you were not confrontational and put the other posters down.

He writes:
"I think I am more qualified for this topic."

I am sure you are qualified to speak about instrumental music instruction. However, the original poster asked for advice from parents whose kids play music. I believe many of us on this forum have experience with raising kids who are musicians (I have two teens who have each played two instruments from a young age) and can share our experiences as the person asked. We may not be experts but we have been down this road, good enough in my book.

He then writes:
"All my children have perfect pitch. Play the piano and strings."

You must be proud of them as you should be. Since many of us have kids who excel at music, be aware that we have kids who have perfect pitch as well, whether we have taken the same path as you or not in raising them.

He goes on to state:
"If you do music or sport for fun as recreation,
it will be a different story.

And to me most of your D&S's activities are recreational.
No depth."

Many of your posts make broad unwarranted assumptions. It seems to me that whether you are discussing sports or performing arts, you think that unless one's kid is striving for Div. I recruitment/scholarship, is going for the Olympics (better yet, has won a medal), is a recruited musician or plays for the National Symphony, or some other national recognition, there is not much merit in the activity. There is a happy medium between recreation and national recognition. Many kids fall into this area and are seen as attractive candidates for selective colleges. For one thing, frankly there is nothing wrong with FUN and recreation. However, many posters here, myself included, have kids who have achieved quite a lot in their EC passions, even if not nationally recognized. They have done more than simply had fun. Hopefully they had fun along the way but they have achieved as well. As a parent, I feel proud of such accomplishments whether it is my kids making All States in music yearly or winning state awards in other areas they have won, or competing in state championships in their sport or performing professionally on stage. Clearly, colleges want to see that. You posted on another thread that all tennis players want to aspire to being pro or recruited for Div. I athletics and I do not believe all are striving for that. Some are, and few do make it to that level....kids who have specialized year round in one thing .That is a wonderful thing for those kids. But there are many accomplished kids who are not striving to be pro or Div. I. Kids make choices that work for them. I have a kid who chose to not attend one of the best ski racing academies in the country in our own backyard (just goes to their weekend program) cause she was not willing to give up high level academics, music, dance, or tennis to do so. She does not care if she makes the USA ski team. That does not make kids who achieve at other levels not worthy or in it for just fun (though she does LOVE this activities). It seems to me that you only regard kids who are at the top of their fields on a national level as accomplished. I feel differently. There are tons of kids in elite colleges who have done great things whose names none of us have heard of.

I have a child who has sung solo with the National Symphony, as well as other symphonies across the country. It was nice for her, but so what. I feel just as proud of my other kid performing in all states. As you can see, we all come at this from different perspectives.

He writes:
"Bye. As I said I will be back in Dec."

I can hardly wait. And what will be your objective then? To say, oh, look so and so kid(s) did not get in certain colleges early......you see what I mean? Unworthy kids!

Susan
(like many parents here, will be just as proud of my kids whether or not they get into certain colleges)

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:01 am: Edit

Shitake: I don't believe I'm clueless. I teach at three universities, I teach privately, and I perform professionally. I have two children at universities right now. I am related to someone who works at a presitious univerisity (in the admissions department).

Why so hostile? We've done nothing to cause this.

And are you truly an adult?

From your posts I don't see that you are gaining anything from us; you don't offer anything to us either. I honestly don't know why you are here, and would prefer that you find another board on which to vent. We don't need it.

By Rachel2 (Rachel2) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:38 am: Edit

-Need a lot of guidance from the parents.

I think this point shitake makes is very true. I have two violinist children who have played more than 25 years combined. Until they were in middle school, I always sat with them during practice. Although I am not a violinist or current musician, I was able to guide them in patience, provide positive feedback, etc. Even if you do not want to sit with your child during a whole practice for years, it is good for them to practice around the family - in the livingroom, family room, kitchen, etc. Sending a kid off to his room to practice alone I think is hard at any age, especially when new to an instrument.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

Rachel, those are excellent points. I remember being a part of every piano practice when they were little and then to varying degrees as they got older. As teens, I am clearly not supervising each practice any longer but do discuss it some as to what they are doing. But I remember helping them much more directly when they started out and were younger. I had forgotten all things musical from my youth ( I played piano as a child and have since forgotten and my kids play the baby grand I had as a kid in fact), but it came back to me as I learned alongside helping them in the early years. Of course, what they play now on their instruments is way too difficult for me to help with directly and they are more independent. But even after several years of playing, I still would give feedback on the piece, etc. I would make sure they were on track timewise to memorize ten pieces to go before a judge every May for National Piano Auditions, as the prep is very heavy for that. Actually come to think of it, my hubby offers assistance guiding my 15 year old on her guitar, her third instrument she plays, as he is a guitarist. So, yes, parental involvement is key in many of these endeavors.
Susan

By Massdad (Massdad) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Rachel2,

I agree to a point.

When my D was younger, yes she really appreciated parental presence, support, encouragement, critiques and so forth. Now she doesn't. BUT, she's set the tone. (rereading your post, I think you said the same thing!)

I emphasize, this stuff cannot be forced. Encouraged, prodded, supported, yes. But when it becomes a battle, it's time to back off.

I'm fortunate to have an assertive, articulate kid (even if those qualities did keep her out of a local prep school - see other posts) who has told me more than once when to back down, that I was pushing too much, etc. Other kinds of kids may handle this in less positive ways. We adults don't want to go there.

Mr. S. has some bizarre approaches and views. If he really is an adult, I feel sorry for his kids.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

On many subjects I am clueless, hence I posed my question to this panel in the first place! Last night my son asked if we could go to the book fair at Barnes and Noble. I said after he practiced the clarinet. Well, out came the instrument and after awhile he said "If I play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star will you sing along?" So there we were playing and singing together and when he was putting the instrument away he said "That was fun." Maybe a breakthrough. He loves to sing and listen to music. He does have a private teacher who plays with him. There are kids programs at the Kennedy Center that I will look into and I am also exploring a "band" that someone told me about. Thanks for the feedback.

By Sluggbugg (Sluggbugg) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Momo4, I think you are seeing the beginnings of his adolescent interest in music, and you might want to plan on giving him an electric guitar for his birthday in a couple of years! ;-) Lots of good suggestions here. I took piano lessons for 10 years, hated practicing, but liked playing. I do remember my mother asking if I wanted to continue with lessons, and it really was my choice to continue for as long as I did. My teacher was THE most patient man in the world. His pained looks were worth the $10 my mother paid him for the half-hour lessons.

My sister, on the other hand, was a true prodigy. My mother used to make us set a timer for 30 mins. each time we sat down to practice. I confess to pushing the timer up a few minutes whenever my mom was out of the room. My sister would keep playing after her timer would ring. It was a true pleasure listening to her play, and there was irrepressible joy in it.

Back in those days, kids would try out for an instrument in sixth grade, and the band director would place a kid with an instrument he thought would suit the child. I bombed out on clarinet & flute, but my sister was placed with a French horn. God Almighty, she hated that instrument, and one day I looked outside and saw her spinning in circles on our front lawn with her French horn in her hands, finally sailing it across the street into the neighbor's yard. That was the last time she played the French horn. But, she continues to play the piano to this day.

So, perhaps the clarinet isn't his instrument. But, I would follow Dadx's suggestion and expose him to some very good performers, maybe some live jazz, or Blues performances. He might get inspired to try another instrument, and once he's hooked, believe me, he'll start asking you for lessons. Steven Tyler of Aerosmith was exposed to music early on. I'm going to leave you with his closing remarks to the Berklee College of Music graduating Class of 2003:

"...Thanks to my mother for reading me fairytales and singing me to sleep, and who wove music into the tapestry of my everything. Thanks to my family now who support me in every way I know. And, thanks especially to my father, Victor Tallerico, for letting his magic flow over me as I sat beneath his Steinway piano while he played."

By Obiwan (Obiwan) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Shitake, upon your return, please dial back the attitude. I have never yet banned a parent but a number of your posts have elements of hostility, abrasiveness, or abuse in them.

The Parents Forum (and the High School Life Forum) is moderated with a deliberately lighter hand than some of the other areas but I assure you it is read, rather completely, by members of the Moderator staff.

--Moderator Obiwan

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Sluggbug, What a lovely post. The story of your sister flinging her French horn made me laugh out loud and that poetic quote brought tears to my eyes.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:25 pm: Edit

About the electric guitar...
My older S loved music as a toddler. He took piano lessons from a young age, though he never excelled (or practiced much to begin with). In high school, he asked for a guitar; then an electric guitar, then a keyboard. He took all three to college and takes all three home on school vacation (together with his dirty laundry, his books and his laptop), meaning that every trip home and back is a major operation.
Beware getting what you wish for.

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 05:01 pm: Edit

My eighth-grader truly loathes the French horn as well. She began in fifth grade with great enthusiasm; she hates the fact that she never gets the melody and has never made it past the beginner's plateau. We have tried private lessons, and she has agreed to finish out this year (effectively sticking with band throughout middle school). I read parts of Slugg's post to her, and she gleefully replied that she will suggest to the other eighth-grade French horn player that they too hurl their instruments across some fences on their day of release.
I always feel great admiration for thedad when I read that his D stuck it out with f horn. It is a noble instrument. Just not very likable.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 10:56 pm: Edit

I made all of my older ones take music lessons. It did not make for a pleasant homelife because I insisted that they practice and I participated in their practice until they hit high school age. Even then I always had/have an ear open when they are playing/practicing.
My experience has been that unless the family makes it part of their life, supplementing it with concerts, recordings, and lots of interest, unless you are fortunate enough to have a child with a true interest and love of music and the discipline to stick to it, the whole process can go no where. I am currently taking a hiatus from the music lessons because I just can't cope with what it takes to make it work.
Oddly enough the older ones are berating me about this--they who made my life miserable when I was making them practice. Some really terrible family fights came out of inadequated practice sessions. But now the older ones who are all accomplished musicians are proud of their abilities and feel that the younger ones should get the same experience they so hated. So you figure.
I have one who is considering going into music. He plays two instruments and also has a beautiful voice. He goes to a conservatory after school, and has made this his life. Strangely enough, he was the least "talented" in his pre highschool years and I was sure he would give it all up when he hit highschool. And with all the resistance he gave me, I was just as glad. I still can't resist criticising him when he does a sloppy workout, and he is still just as nasty about it. But if I ignore him, he seems to crave comments.
In all fairness, I must also tell you that I have friends who hated every second of their music lessons as children and are not one bit grateful that they had the training. I don't know how extensive the home support was for the activity. I always made it an important part of our family life, so though the kids rebelled, they looked at it as a necessity like their chores, cleanliness, schoolwork.
I am old now so I don't know if I can keep this up with the little ones because it is pretty thankless (in this family, anyways) and I really can't urge this on anyone despite the possibility of great rewards in the end.
I don't know Shitake, and I don't think his tone was polite at all, but I think what he was saying was that you don't just provide the instrument and the lessons to the kids if you want a good chance of the music becoming part of their lives. You have to have the music and the lessons truly become part of your lives. It requires an all out family effort particularly in non music families. My friends who are musicians seem to effortlessly do this because they are living music. It isn't so easy for someone like me who does not even play an instrument.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 11:03 am: Edit

Shitake:

Perhaps I am clueless but at some point in time even the parent of a musically talented child realizes that "motivation comes from within". My daughter made the decision not to pursue music more seriously (even though she was encouraged to do so) because she loved to play on sports teams, be a part of school clubs and became involved in community service. She appreciates the drive to perfection that some piano students have but she did not want to specialize in one thing. She is nineteen now and is still studying the piano. She plays beautifully and enjoys her music very much. She performs at a nursing home for the people who live there and puts her earnings in a fund for an inner city music program.

Yep, I would call her a musician with "no depth" to her talent.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 11:22 am: Edit

Elleneast....your daughter has depth of character!!! And depth as a well rounded young adult! Kudos to her, she sounds wonderful.

Your daughter reminds me a bit of my older one (my senior) in that she has chosen to not specialize in one thing. She has also been a musician (two instruments) since she was little and continues to take lessons and to perform in ensembles. She has derived much enjoyment from this facet of her life and has achieved plenty in that area. She never plans to go on in this field as a field of study but will continue to play in college and beyond out of interest, like it sounds your daughter has chosen to do.

I really admire what your daughter has done at the nursing home. To me, it would give me great pleasure to see my child giving pleasure to others in that way. I had a similar experience last year. My then 14 year old daughter was asked to perform at a nursing home by someone. While she is frankly quite accomplished on piano, this time she did not play but she sang solo with her piano teacher as accompaniest. She sang one Broadway showtune after another for the residents and I felt like crying at the pleasure she gave those people for one afternoon. For her to share herself with them and make them happy for one moment, is what it is all about. To achieve talent and then share it with others is really one aspect of performing arts that I really like.

Susan

By Mstee (Mstee) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 11:56 am: Edit

Jamimom--LOL. Your experiences sound very familiar. I was pretty forceful with my oldest son. He got pretty good and now doesn't play much at all (piano). I told him he could quit when he was 12, because by then he would be pretty good, and know whether or not he wanted to continue. He practiced over an hour a day, did all the scales at top speed, you know, serious stuff. Lo and behold, his piano teacher "let him go" when he was just shy of twelve years old because the kid thought it would be funny to start burping incessantly at one of the events in the piano teacher's home. I guess I learned then, that I can't force my kids to do anything they don't want to do. They will find a way out. . .

By Sluggbugg (Sluggbugg) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Mstee, LOL! Do-re-me-fa:::BRAAAPPP!:::so! Here are the lyrics to the Do-re-me song, courtesy of Homer J. Simpson:

Dough, the stuff that buys me beer;
Ray, the guy who sells me beer;
Me, the guy who drinks the beer;
Far, the distance to my beer!

So, I think I'll have a beer;
La, la-la-la-la-la-beer;
Tea, no thanks I'm drinking beer;
That will bring us back to...DOH!!

By Mstee (Mstee) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Thanks for the Do Re Mi. Everything in this family seems to come back to the Simpsons--at least when it involves my older kids. My daughter hadn't heard the Do Re Mi Beer song, though. Must have missed an episode. How that is possible, I don't know. . . Son, who likes Tufts, became even more interested when he found out they have a "No Homers" club there.

By Mstee (Mstee) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Just to clarify. It is the non-burping son who is interested in Tufts. The burper is already in college.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Mstee....maybe this one farts??? ;-)
anyway, am sure both guys are talented in other areas too !

Thought I would tell you that on our tour at Tufts last year, the tour guide mentioned that one of the most popular courses in the Experimental College is on the Simpsons! The Ex College is a really neat aspect of Tufts. They offer many courses that do not fit within the normal college departmentalized structure for credit. So, pass this on to your son.

Susan (who has never seen the Simpsons)

By Driver (Driver) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I recall reading many interviews with top jazz and fusion/rock guitarists where they said they owed a huge debt to their mothers, who "made me take piano lessons." The unstated point was, I think, that they learned the language of music, and it is really a lot like a foreign language...better tackled while young. It's not going to work for everyone, but if you can pick up a musical score and read it fluently at a young age, you will be in a position similar to that of a student who can fluently read a French or Spanish novel, and can thus concentrate on the substance of the piece, rather than the mechanics.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Susan, thank you for the kind words.

It pleases me to no end that the D has found a way to help out a little bit by doing what she likes to do. She is loving the new opportunities offered at college. From what I have read about the children of all of you on the Parent's Forum, your kids will dive into the college experience with enthusiasm as well.

Mr. Shitake might not have realized that his post would incite (I should cut him some slack because English is possibly not his first language.) but I am bloody sick and tired of those who aspire for their children to be considered "gifted" to downplay the endeavors of others. What defines "the best", anyway? That is a another whole thread. ;-)

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 01:57 pm: Edit

PS. Forgive me for going waaaay off topic.

By Mstee (Mstee) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 02:05 pm: Edit

"Mstee....maybe this one farts??? ;-)
anyway, am sure both guys are talented in other areas too !"

Actually, the oldest son kinda seems to have gotten most of the talent in the bodily functions areas. . .

Back to Tufts. Trying not to fall in love with that school. My son really likes it. I noticed that my daughter, a freshman in high school, has been visiting some "Tufts Nerdgirls" site. This is the one who is at a charter arts high school and has now decided she is really a nerd at heart and wants to change schools. . .

Music. I still have not given up on any of the kids. They kind of know that music is just part of the deal in this family. Mostly I leave it up to them as to what/how, although I am pushing the piano with the fifth grader a little. She is very musical, loves the singing, dancing, acting, etc. She's playing the trumpet at school now, and seeming to have a lot of fun with it. She has played the violin for a few years, but is taking a break, just because it all does get to be a bit much at times. . . .I think that piano is a basic thing for a musical person, and want her to be able to sight read decently, at least. I do think this is one child that may regret it if she doesn't learn some basic piano. And I don't think it is the piano that she doesn't like. It is the practicing. . . But I don't push that as much as I used to. . .The most important thing to me now is that they like and enjoy music. It is pointless if it becomes a burden.

By Momof3boys (Momof3boys) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

My 3 S's all have played musical instruments since they were small (starting with the piano). The three are as different as can be. The oldest taught himself piano at 3 and by 4 was composing music (in written form no less!!!)--it really did "freak me out." He has played in youth orchestras and has played a number of instruments, but when he was offered the chance to be mentored by a member of the NSO, he declined because he is in a math-science magnet school and would have had to miss a great deal of h.s. to do so. Also, although music is his passion, the sciences are as well, and he just was not going to commit the time....I was actually quite proud of him for making that decision, particularly as his bassoon teacher was pushing for him to change schools and follow the NSO opportunity.

S2 began piano but at age 6 begged us for a trumpet. We made it his Christmas present and he really took off with it. Like the other son, he dabbled in several wind and string instruments (through our school system music pogram) and fell in love with the French horn. He played in a youth symphonic orchestra outside of school but once he got braces, he bowed out. He now loves his electric guitar (surprise??) and spends hours playing that.

S3 begged to play piano, and so started lessons. Then through school he tried the violin and finally begged to play S2's trumpet (which was only played occasionally by S2). He has really taken off with that and is now in an area band (for what it's worth) in 5th grade. Will he do anything professional with his music? Highly unlikely in my opinion. Will the other 2? Highly unlikely. Has music enriched their lives? Absolutely. I have never pushed, but have always made musical opportunities available. It is a passion of mine, but I certainly have not taken it beyond the enjoyment phase, and if my boys do the same, I'll feel fortunate that they have had the experience.

I'm not sure whether this really contributes to anyone's bank of knowledge, but I think that there is something to be said for having music as part of one's repertoire simply for the enjoyment. On the other hand, I absolutely admire those parents who have had the gumption--drive--desire to encourage their children to achieve more within the musical (or academic or athletic) area.

For what my 2 cents are worth....,

:-)

By Sooky6 (Sooky6) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:05 am: Edit

I played French horn from age 10 through college, and it was so rewarding and wonderful--the friends I met, and the experiences on stage and off. My parents started me on piano at age 4, and while at times it was a struggle, I am grateful to them for pushing me to get better. I really miss it now that I'm a grown up and so busy with other things.

That being said...some of the kids I tutor are made miserable by music lessons and just aren't naturally inclined to enjoy it. You can only force it on a child up to a certain age, and then I think you have to find something that they are more on board with.

By Musicmom (Musicmom) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 08:58 am: Edit

So hard to say, each child is different.
Our son fought at times when it was practice time....now he is applying to conservatories.
I guess we were 'right' to encourage him to stick with it through those early, painful periods when you didn't know if it was EVER going to sound like music!
Best of luck in your situation.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 09:15 am: Edit

I heard him comment to his sister after the winter concert that playing is a lot more fun now that he can play a song that he knows like Jingle Bells.

By Bobmcc (Bobmcc) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 03:56 am: Edit

actually the nicest part is having adam home for semester break and getting to hear him play for his own..but by extension our...pleasure.
Whatever..finding a good teacher whose style meshes w/ your kid counts ever so much. It WAS a v. high compliment, recently, when he said that the dept chair and (one of several composers on the fac of a small LAC) reminded him a whole lot of the lady who'd tutored him for 3 yrs in composition in middle/high school.

By Ccs_2004 (Ccs_2004) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 02:25 am: Edit

Please do not let your son quit, I am a high school senior and I have been playing the clarinet since the 6th grade. I have throughout the years have had times where I have wanted to quit, but have not, because even when I feel horrible about it I have found redeaming qualities, like I have met all my friends through band. I after playing for 6 years do not sound like Benny Goodman, but that has not stopped me. Also I for the last 3 years have volunteered at a local elementary school, teaching 4th-6th graders on the clarinet, and many times some of my students have wanted to quit, i have not let any of them quit band entirely, I would try to change up the lessons, customing the lesson for that student, like one time one of the kids who wanted to quit I found out they loved the musical Cats, so what I did was I found a easy music book with Andrew Llyod Webber and scanned all the songs in it and gave it to them. When I gave it to him, and he saw that he himself could play those songs, he got excited about playing again, I never heard anything about him quitting again. I try to find interesting songs for each kid to play to keep them motivated, along with having contests. I also tell each one of them what their strong points in playing are, to tell them that they are not a failure, and I tell them that it takes time, because I am still learning. The worst thing that happened to a student that I taught was that they figured out clarinet wasn't for them, but they still wanted to be in band, so they picked up the trombone, and now they are happy. Well hopefully some of this helps. Variety helps! in the times where I dont want to practice the only thing that motivates me is to practice while watching a tv show.

By Isaman (Isaman) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Here is an opinion from a high school student.

As a trained classical guitarist and painist since 2nd grade, I can tell you that you SHOULD NOT insist that your son continues playing the clarinet if he really hates it. The musician should love the instrument he decides to play. Whether it be plucking strings on a guitar or using one's mouth and a read to make music on the clarinet, the musician should love the instrument. The musician should love the challenge or learning how to play when he does not know how. If the musician wants to quit, he is no longer a musician, but rather, he becomes an artist. The musician and artist are two different personalities. The musician plays his instrument for the love of music. The artist on the other hand plays his instrument as a form to entertain other people. So, once again, if your son doesn't want to pursue the clarinet, by all means, let him be free to make his own decision. For example, my parents wanted me to play the trumpet...screw that. I hated the trumpet, and now look, I am a classical guitarist and pianist.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Thank you. Both very interesting posts.