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*Note: I’m posting this thread in the Parents forum because the responses here seem to be much more intelligent than at the other boards, plus, I want responses from parents.*

While pondering through the mountains of mail from colleges and perusing threads on this board, I have had a bit of an astonishing realization (for me, anyway): I have a shot at some of the Ivies. While it might have been naive of me to think that anyone from south of Virginia has no chance, I don’t exactly come from the type of background that usually gets someone into the top colleges. I’ve moved from one terrible southern public school to another, and in my sophomore year of HS finally landed at a decent magnet school.

Once I realized that a trip to the Ivies wasn’t as fictitious as I originally thought, I reasoned that I have a bit more than a lottery ticket at Yale EA, Princeton ED, etc. 1580 SAT, 5s on APs, Biology Olympiad Finalist (top 20 in country), National Academic Decathlon medalist, etc. Being from Louisiana doesn’t hurt either.

Alas, I digress. This thread isn’t about my chances at the Ivies, or me pumping up my ego.

Once I got over the surprise of my potential acceptance at the Gods of Prestige, my excitement faded. I knew nothing about these schools. All I knew was that most everyone I knew was saying “Omigosh! You can get into an Ivy League! So which one will you apply to?” That’s hell to put up with when you’re trying to make a decision that will affect the rest of your life.

I think I’ve explained my background well enough. Now for the implications of it: $40,000 per year is a lot of money. I’m in the oddball category that many economists dryly call the “lower middle class”, and would qualify for a very small amount of financial aid while not being able to pay anywhere close to the full ride. My dear parents (who never expected to have a son with a chance at the Ivies) probably could pay for it with their retirement savings, but I won’t allow that. I couldn’t afford grad school after it, anyway.

That being said, I am sick of the southern public school system. The thought of spending another 4 years at a Louisiana state university – where I could get in for free – nauseates me. I will probably apply to WUSTL and Duke (they give a very few full merit scholarships) and hope that they give me something.

So should I sacrifice an Ivy undergraduate education and spend another 4 years at FootballnCheerleaders U? I’m looking to go into biology and someday start my own business – probably a biotech supplier of some sort. Could I get into a decent grad school with a second/third tier university for undergrad?

I’m not a prestige whore. But I badly want an intellectual environment where the emphasis is not placed on sports and partying.

Thanks in advance to all who reply.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 01:28 am: Edit

Yes - you can get into a decent grad school with a degree from a less selective university. However, you might be more engaged elsewhere and have a more rewarding four years.

I've never researched the "best schools/best bets for merit aid" question but I'd think a search on this board would develop some prospects.

I'd consider applying to an extra-long list of schools, based on the time you can spare and the application fee money available. The list should be split between schools you believe you'd flourish at and those you know to have solid academic reputations and strong merit aid programs. Make sure that reach/match/safety categories are all well-represented. I guess I would include LSU if you get a free ride; I would visit there before you rule it out.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 01:33 am: Edit

I would not discount the amount of good (non-loan) financial aid you might receive from the top schools.
If you're "lower-middle class," you'll probably get quite a bit from some schools. Apply (not EA or ED) and see what you get.

Your job now is to figure out which of the top schools are the best fit for your and why.

By Plastikcup (Plastikcup) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 01:39 am: Edit

If you are letting the $$$ be your guide then you have nothing to lose from applying to all of the IVY schools. Just a quick note, folks North of the Mason Dixon consider Duke a Southern School!! Good luck moving North....you'll love it.

By Shennie (Shennie) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

I would strongly encourage you to look at schools that provide a decent amount of merit aid, such as University of Chicago, or lower tuition and decent aid packages, such as Rice. Apply to LSU as a financial backup, but hey, go for it. You really don't have much to lose.

By Mike (Mike) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Contrary to what you read on PR lots of tenagers need a confidence builder and the realization that they have more options then they have imagined. beyond the ivies there are literally a couple of hundred first class colleges they can go to instead of the huge states. If you want a school intellectual push don't ignore the LACs and smaller Universities beyond the Ivy/state U choices. If your parents have much of the retirement savings in 401s and the like many schools wil not count them. There are also a lot that offer merit money and are often looking for students out of their region.

Have fun looking, applying and picking where ever you go. Mike started with State U as his future and now has a nice group of LACs he is considering. The best thing about the internet is the new worlds it opens no matter where you are


Mike's Dad

By Rhino (Rhino) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Look seriously at IVY/elite schools, some in the Northeast, some elsewhere. If your family income is relatively low, you WILL get very good fin aid from elite schools, most of which guarantee to meet 100% of need (yes there are some differences in each package, despite the same clain to meet 100% of need). You will get better aid from elite shools than most state unis because of the huge endowment of private LACs and IVYs.

Normally Dad gives great advice; in this case though, his advice not to apply EA/Ed to top schools should be questioned. In our experience with two top schools, fin aid was NOT different based on an EA/ED application.

Good luck, and set your sight high (with plenty of safeties)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

If you apply ED, you can't compare financial aid offers...you have to withdraw all other offers.
It's *nuts* to apply ED when financial aid is a key consideration. Applying EA *is* defensible; I plead fatigue when I made the post.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

Thanks for the advice... there's some great stuff here. I still have to do a lot more research on this, though. I've been looking through the Fiske guide and have found it very informative.

Here is a (very) preliminary list of colleges I'm thinking of applying to. More will certainly be added:

Yale (EA or not?)
I love the atmosphere at Yale, and they have a decent bio program.

Princeton - Intense, energetic aura to the place. They also have a great biology program

Cornell – Great bio program, but I don’t know too much about the school – must do more research.

JHU - Same as above

WUSTL - Excellent research school that gives out a few complete merit aids in each subject. I'm hoping that my Biology Olympiad awards will give me a shot at one of them.

Duke - Good sciences program, nice campus. They also give a few complete merit aid packages.

Rice - They don't have quite the caliber biology department, but tuition here is affordable.

Swarthmore - Excellent LAC... I have some family in the area, too.

Tulane - Best school in LA and I could easily get it all paid for.

LSU - I've visited it quite a few times and have never been enthralled. Oh well, it is some place I know I could get full tuition


Yes, applying ED anywhere is out of the question... I would be locked into a financially binding agreement that I couldn't keep.

I'm still debating whether or not to go for Yale EA. If they do give me a decent aid package, I could skimp on the number of colleges I apply RD to and concentrate on competitions (Olympiads, Acadeca) this spring, which is what I really want to do.

By Marthpodi (Marthpodi) on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

You might want to look into Northwestern University in Evanston. It's not quite Ivy-caliber, but they do give out quite a bit of (aid all need-based though).

Also consider Stanford, Emory, and Vanderbilt.

By Rhino (Rhino) on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 07:56 am: Edit

just to keep your mind open-ED will not bind you into a financial agreement you cannot keep-ED is always dependent upon financial aid that is sufficient for you to attend the college. Dad is correct that you cannot compare offers if you are accepted ED. But the aid must be sufficient for you to be able to attend, otherwise you are not obligated by the ED acceptance.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:25 am: Edit

Rhino, careful here. The school decides if the offer is adequate, not the applicant, so you could be in a sticky situation if, as an ED applicant, the school thinks it gave you enough, but you don't. The applicant would be blocked from all the other selective schools, as the ED schools send around lists of those they've accepted.

Purge, keep in mind that the elite schools do not slavishly follow the federal financial aid formulas.

Personally, I think geographic diversity benefits the individual more than the institution. I think it is crucial that people learn how different other parts of the country can be. It would help people understand many of the political standoffs we have, for instance. So, I would strongly recommend you attend college out of the south, NOT because it will be better (Education is a national industry now) but because you will learn much more w/r/t a lot of soft issues. I don't think it matters much what part of the country.

By Kissy (Kissy) on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Purge- Perhaps the Jerome Fisher program at Penn would interest you since you seem to have some entrepeneurial leanings. I think your scores, along with your other achievements, would make you an attractive candidate to the adcoms. Would biotechnology interest you or are you leaning purely towards a bio degree?

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Massdad: I agree completely. I believe it would benefit me tremendously to go somewhere outside of the southern US.

Kissy: I include biotechnology when I say 'biology'. Actually, a degree specific to biotech might suit me better as well as prepare me more thoroughly for work (whether or not my business plans work out as I want). I've spent quite a while working in labs and always enjoy going to the biotech expos (new technology and free food!)

I don't know much about the Jerome Fisher program... is it just entrepreneurship or a combination of bio and business? If the latter, that'd be great.

By Wobudong (Wobudong) on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Duke has about thirty merit scholarships for non-carolinian, non-urm types. 15 Robertson scholars and 15 AB Duke scholars. The Robertson scholars seems to have heavy backgrounds in whatever the politically correct, diversity interest is most in vogue in a particular year. AB Duke's are pretty much the perceived academic stars. Your numbers will at least put you on the radar screen for both. Yes, the NE schools still consider Duke to be a Southern U. Duke's consistently high ranking drives the Ivy groupies nuts.

Emory is a school that has solid undergrad programs and offers significant merit scholarships.

Washington and Lee is excellent (see "College Admissions Trade Secrets" by Andrew Allen) W&L offers a relatively large number of George Washington Honor Scholarships, which include up to a full ride based soley on merit. W&L is small but offers as good an undergrad program as anyone.

Princeton Review's best value among research universities is Rice. A residential college system virtually identical to that at Yale replaces the Greek scene. Substantial merit scholarships and tuition that is 10k lower than peer universities have lured many from HYP, Duke and Stanford over the past few years. Rice currently leads all universities in the percentage of National Merit Scholars enrolled.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

Wobudong, I would not attach too much to the percentage of National Merit Scholars enrolled at Rice, for two reasons:

First, the key number is the number of nonsponsored scholars. A school can easily bump up their percentage by offering lots of merit aid to NM folks, and this has been done over the years by many schools. Nonsponsored numbers, OTOH, are the ones that chose to come without an inducement by the school.

Second, Rice draws most heavily from regions where the NM qualifying score is much lower than in the northeast. For example, my D's HS, instead of having 10-15 NM finalists, if it were in a southcentral state like Texas would have double the number (or 3x if in Arkansas!).

I don't mean to put down Rice, as it is a wonderful institution working hard to increase its geographic diversity and become a national institution. And, yes it is a bargain in a very cosmopolitan, interesting city, as long as you can handle the weather!

Purge, there are a number of good U's that have very generous merit based aid programs, Michigan State (my undergrad alma mater) for instance. Anyone in the top 5% of class with a NM score of 1500 more more automatically gets a scholarship covering out of state tuition, for instance, with other aid that would probably cover most other expenses. And this is merit based.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Related question:

Is it true that colleges can only take 5.6% of a family's net worth?

By Dadster (Dadster) on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Purge, the formula is a bit more complex than that. Student assets are calculated at a much higher rate, for starters. These percentages may be a bit out of date, but the difference is major, say, 35% each year vs. 6%. To add more complexity, some assets, like homes, may be considered at some schools but ignored by many more. There is also an age-based retirement exclusion for parent assets. Your best bet is to run some sample EFC calculations to see what a first cut at your expected contribution. Individual schools may vary, of course.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Thanks... If it is 35% of student assets and ~6% of parents, I should be in good shape. I'll run the calculations anyway and see.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 07:08 pm: Edit

One more question: Is the difference between the max college tuition (say, $160k) and 6% of your family's net worth made up in loans or grants or some combination?

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:01 am: Edit

Sorry to bear not-so-good news, but the 6% (more like 5.6%) is for ASSETS, not total family contributions. The family is expected to make MAJOR contributions from current income - and I mean major - sometimes up to 40%, from what I've seen and heard. Only after that is figured do the schools go to the aid - usually a combination of student and parent loans, grants and maybe work-study. Oh, and I believe they figure in about $1100 contribution from the student's summer employment each year.

By Sunshine916 (Sunshine916) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 07:46 pm: Edit

4 letters for you-

C-W-R-U=Case Western Reserve University

well its rated somewhere in the 30's for USNEWS list so its not a terrible school at all. they are known for their hard sciences (bio, chem, biomed engineering rated top 5 in the nation...).

the best part-MERIT AID. they offer it as if money grows on trees. a 1500 will give you full tuition and they give out a bunch of tuition + R&B scholarships a year too AND give u a special dorm room thats big, and u dont even have to share it.
---------------
okay enough about that. i know what you're dealing with. my parnet plugged our numbers through Princeton's tuition/finaid calculator and we got family contribution=$31,000 and my parents FLIPPED because we're something like middle/upper-middle class which is a horrible place to be. theres no way in this world we can pay $30k+. thus our family is going through a "spend as much money ASAP phase" which is almost funny.

dont rule out Ivies yet. i would definitely say to find some really good schools (like CWRU) who offer A LOT of merit aid, because u will sure as heck get a good package.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Bleh... momof2 said what I feared.

I don't really feel like graduating with $50,000 worth of loans... I'd take State U before that, and I'd take no college before State U.

Sunshine, that's path is probably the one I'll end up following. Who knows, though.

By Mstee (Mstee) on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 12:49 pm: Edit

A friend of ours got a terrific aid package from Cornell. He chose not to go, and went instead to MIT which offered zip. Go figure.

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Years ago, the son of a friend was offered four years, full ride scholarship at our state university. He opted to go to Harvard, which offered zip. He's now a practicing obstretician.

A number of universities and colleges do offer generous scholarships: University of Rochester gives merit aid to matriculating students scoring 1200+ on the SAT; Boston University gave generous scholarships to two people at I know. These are outright scholarships, not loans, not work-study packages. There must be more. Check around.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Marite, this thread is an example of why I'm concerned about socioeconomic diversity at ivies, as discussed in another thread!

By Mike (Mike) on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Remember that some schools don't expect students to wind up in huge debt. Some put a cap on debt. From a total of 10,000 for 4 years or the max Stafford subsidized loan total and one NE whose name I have forgoten uses a formula based on the average starting salary of grads from their school. Those who think their school is worth 40,000 debt are IMO suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Mike's Dad

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Massdad:

But Ivies also give generous scholarships; they just do not give merit scholarships. I know quite a few Harvard students who have been/are on scholarship. I am also aware of the incredible diversity among students. Believe me, I've visited quite a few universities and LACs, and Ivies are more likely to be diverse than many, many LACs.

As for my friend's son, frankly, since they could afford to pay Harvard tuition, I did not feel sorry that they chose not to take up the U-MASS merit scholarship. I'm sure it went to someone more in need of financial aid.

By Momof3boys (Momof3boys) on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 08:13 am: Edit

Massdad:

Rice and weather--please comment. S is very interested in their combined MD program but the weather element sounds pretty daunting. Then again, S has been looking at U Rochester's combined MD program, and the thought of walking through tunnels all winter to get to class turns him off as well. (Maybe that's one way to narrow the list of schools he is considering...)

I am so torn as to whether to encourage S to continue looking into the Ivies or just look at safeties and the combined programs that interest him. S is equally interested in HYP, but we would not qualify for need based monies (middle class...squeezed from both ends) but really can't afford the tuition/costs of the Ivies. (S is the one who initiated the Ivy search; I tend to be holding him back and encouraging him to attend one of our state schools (UVA or Wm and Mary)) which are great schools and would be a safeties for him.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Mom, having lived in (get ready for this!) Santa Barbara, Minneapolis, Dallas, Boston, Chicago (Germany, too, but I'll stop now), I feel reasonably qualified to speak about weather!

There is a great deal of personal taste involved in this topic. I, for instance, like (tolerate may be a better word) cold weather better than most. BUT, I think kids are way to young to be fixated on weather w/r/t college selection. After all, god invented thin tank tops as well as down jackets for a reason, not to mention air conditioning and central heating.

In all seriousness, every place (well, maybe not Santa Barbara) has a few months of unpleasant weather - the heat in Houston summer, winter in Rochester for example. I can assure you, though, that Houstonians are no more likely to be holed up in their spare time than Rochesterians (or whatever they call themselves). Winter can be beautiful and a lot of fun. So can the heat of the summer. For instance, a long tradition is a bike race up in Wichita Falls Tx called the " Hotter'N Hell Hundred" in August.

There are many reasons to like or dislike a place better than its weather. I should add that a kid in an combined BA/MD program is not going to be taking a great deal of time enjoying the weather anyway, sad but true.


Finally, UVA as a safety? What to worry about? Wish we had a fallback position as attractive, but we just cannot get excited about U. Mass, so we have to look at schools like Rochester that offer merit $$ as safeties. Has he thought about McGill?

By Heartfang2 (Heartfang2) on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 07:56 pm: Edit

okay enough about that. i know what you're dealing with. my parnet plugged our numbers through Princeton's tuition/finaid calculator and we got family contribution=$31,000 and my parents FLIPPED because we're something like middle/upper-middle class which is a horrible place to be. theres no way in this world we can pay $30k+. thus our family is going through a "spend as much money ASAP phase" which is almost funny.

I can't believe you are saying that. Either you had a very drastic change in income, or you spend your summers in Paris and Hollywood- which I detest. Seems like your parents don't really care about your education

By Heartfang2 (Heartfang2) on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 04:04 am: Edit

Sunshine.

YOU are SO LUCKY, do you know that?

Princeton estimates my family's contribution to be about $8000 due to the currency exchange rate. My parents scrimped and saved their way through and they figured that they could pay $12000 per year.

You said that you cannot afford to pay $30k. Why is that? Is it because your family's income suddenly increased or because you are not willing to pay?

And that's not even enough. Due to the financial aid policy, only a HANDFUL of universities are need-blind for intl students. So, I can't even pay, even if I wanted to.

You worry about petty things like merit aid and such. Or whether I spend nights worrying about whether I'll even GET admitted, due to the fact THAT I CAN'T EVEN PAY!

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 09:39 am: Edit

Heartfang2,

I've held off replying because I'm not sure this topic merits the bandwidth, but, now that you've attacked the integrity of two parents near to this board, I feel I must.

Perhaps with a bit more maturity, you will begin to understand the crude nature of financial aid calculations, as well as the many competing pressures we parents have.

Princeton calculator says my family (of which I am one of the parents) can contribute essentially all of the cost of their education. This is curious. We vacation by driving to see relatives. We eat out once every two weeks or so, spending $20-25. I take my lunch to work to save money. We have no trust funds or substantial retirement savings. One of our two cars (neither of which is fancy) is 13 years old, only good for local trips. I could go on. Yet, the calculator says we can afford a BIG amount. Why? Because it does not account for the varying cost of living in differing parts of the world.

Regarding your request for sympathy because most colleges here will not pay for YOUR education, have your parents, or your country, contributed toward that cost, including infrastructure, research support and so forth? We do, through our taxes. So please don't bellyache to me about your travails. Some countries, such as Canada, do invest. If it's a problem for you, it is not our fault. I frankly have no sympathy.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Heartfang:

Brandeis University has a unique scholarship program, The Wien International Scholarship Program, intended solely for international students. Brandeis is an excellent university not far from Boston. If your family cannot contribute to your education, do consider applying there. Also, if your country's educational infrastructure is deficient (not your fault, after all), there are other English-speaking countries with lower educational costs: Canada, UK, Australia, Singapore. You are not without choices.

By Anotherdad (Anotherdad) on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Princeton reportedly has decided to give grants in lieu of students getting loans to cover needs. Check it out.
With a 1580 and the biology award, you might well get a free ride at a smaller, but good schools looking to skim some top prospects. Take a look at Elon, and other LACs.

By Gameguy56 (Gameguy56) on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 09:12 pm: Edit

I second the poster that mentioned Case-Western. With a Top 10% ranking and a 1500 SAT, you will get full tuition
They are top 10 in almost every bio program. I think CWRU definitely merits a serious look.