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Is it just my imagination, or are there parents out there that are spending huges sums sending their future college applicant to every imaginable kind of forum, program, conference, camp, seminar---all under the guise of the activity becoming an irresistable admissions hook? Whatever these conferences are, they are promoted as if there will be various world leaders in attendance--and are--if nothing else--very important!

What marketing genius designs the high falutin' names of these things?

Maybe I'm just out of the loop. But every day I hear of a completely new conference. Honestly, I don't think Secretary of State Powell attends that many conferences. Are parents hiring administrative assistants to make all the reservations and keep the scheduling and travel plans in order?

Are these things really hooks... that you can buy?

And where's all that money going? To some guy named P. T. Barnum by any chance?

By Digmedia (Digmedia) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 09:12 am: Edit

You're correct, of course. But it seems that the posters on CC:ParentsForum know that, even if many, many other parents do not. We still spend large sums of money on our kids for summer activities, but for activities that have nothing to do with college hooks. Two summers ago, my S went to Windjammer Camp to learn to sail and has been to two sessions of Space camp (which he absolutely loved). But these activities have nothing to do with developing hooks for college. My S is away now at a workshop on advanced animation, not for resume padding, but because it's his passion.

In terms of colleges (that is what this board is about), I think that they see so many NYLFs and Summer College Sessions, etc. that it really makes no difference one way or the other. But an application that showed a summer on a sailboat named Morgan Truce cruising from A to B... now that would would be a "productive" summer.

By Galagos (Galagos) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:28 am: Edit

My son is in the Naval Sea Cadets. He gets to do most of the summer activities and camps for $50 each. For example:

Sea cadet boot camp-sleepaway, 2 weeks, $50

Foreign Exchange, 2 weeks on UK destroyer with UK and other foreign sea cadets, $100, including all travel. It is competetive for selection, but many cadets get to do at least one foreign exchange.

He has also done numerous 1 week and 2 week Leadership academies at naval bases across the country, approx $50. We do have to pay for travel on the domestic programs, but they pay room and board, instruction, etc.

The big plus, it is something he wants to do, he has been doing it since the 8th grade. (now a rising senior.) Also, I'm assuming it doesn't just look like a bunch of these silly "you have been selected...leadership" conferences, where you have been selected because you can pay $2000. We have never done one of those. We did pay for summer seminar at the naval academy a couple of weeks ago, $300 for 6 days. However, that is an honest to goodness selective camp that gives the candidates an oppurtunity to learn what the academy will be like, as well as for the academy to evaluate the students.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:19 am: Edit

The imagination is a wonderful thing!

We hear a report that someone went to some distant shore to study the mating rituals of exotic fauna... and we imagine months of study in preparation, difficult border crossings, passport stampings, trekking through dangerous jungles, and then tenting on the beach and taking notes---all while dressed in full Banana Republic regalia. We imagine that this person has a most interesting life---and is the very stuff of great hooks. The reality may be a hastily booked group cruise with several hundred other boring people with more credit cards than brains, a fat cruise ship just offshore--playing endless Jimmy Buffet tunes, and a motor launch for the few hearty souls (that are not too awfully wasted) to get to the beach that has a few very thin seagulls picking at some recently washed up fish. Nevertheless, we still think of this individual as an interesting person with an interesting life.

If there's a point to this aimless rant, it is this: an interesting life really cannot be bought; it has to be lived.

Any good admissions committee will be able to spot that little overlooked price sticker on a purchased hook.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:44 am: Edit

If I wanted to observe mating rituals of exotic fauna, I'd go to Cancun and watch the college students on Spring break.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

Fwiw, D's ballet camp costs a winceable amount. However, its in the range of all other ballet intensives and is consistent with her EC. You can't do those cheap. Last year we added even more $$ by driving back from New Mexico to L.A. instead of flying...TheMom called it the rocks and ruins tour. Looking at petroglyphs that I don't think are long for this world (the administration gave approval for a housing tract that now encroaches within a couple of hundred yards), Meteor Crater, the Lowell Observatory, and Montezuma's Castle, which, akin to the Holy Roman Empire, was not built by Montezuma and is not a castle.

We also pulled off the Interstate and detoured through Winslow, Arizona and almost immediately we *did* see a flat-bed Ford, the signficance of which I leave as an exercise for the reader.

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Well, as you all know by now, my family was quite naive until finding this site! I hadn't even heard of "hooks"! So all the things our D did were because she was interested in them ... or, to be honest, sometimes (like the Alaska 1000+ bike ride) her father encouraged her and possibly "guilted" her in to.

Things she did:
Biked the Black Rock Desert
Hiked the Alaska Chilkoot Trail
Biked Alaska
attended CRF's Law Institute at UCLA

Of the four (I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but these are the costly biggies) the last was the least memorable and certainly (I'm sorry to say) a waste of money. (Still, she did get to stay on the UCLA campus and fell in love with their law library!)

But I can honestly say that we hadn't though of hooks at all. The biking and hiking were things she (and our boys) did with dad for bonding and "fun" (sometimes!) and all that jazz, and the law institute was attended because she loves law.

FWIW, I don't believe any one of these did anything for her regarding college entrance.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

I agree that an interesting life cannot be bought and has to be lived. But it's important to avoid either/or thinking. Just because one has paid money for a program doesn't mean that for that particular kid it wasn't a very meaningful experience. (Or that it was done to create a "hook;" that's not my understanding of a hook anyway.) My kids have done a variety of programs and really appreciated the opportunity to connect with kids who shared their interests and were willing to go beyond being "cool" to get excited about something together. They have always enjoyed this with us at home, but we see how much they have benefited from having the opportunity to do so in the company of peers. The $1500 we spent to send my son to NSLC for 10 days, for example, was worth every penny; he came home having been challenged and validated in a way he had not previously experienced with kids his age.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Sure they did - they helped make her the interesting person she is today!

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Mof2 ... yes, she is an interesting person ... and due to more than those four events in her life. But what I was saying (and I know you know this and are being encouraging here) was that I don't believe the colleges were swayed one way or another by those things. (And of course I could be wrong ... I'm almost always willing to admit that!) I truly believe that students should immerse themselves in things that interest them and/or will "grow" them. I hate the idea of doing anything just to get that magical "hook" ... and if it means the colleges don't "get it" well, that's their loss, imo.

Of course I can say this now, because her college decision has been made. Maybe I'd feel differently if she were a junior!

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Hautbois: Our only interesting summer project - our S worked for 15 months raising the money to march Drum Corps the summer he was 16. I don't imagine that's a real hook to any college and I KNOW it didn't help him musically (different instrument, embouchure change, etc.) but it certainly opened his eyes to a lot of things. Living, working and sleeping with 127 former strangers for 10 weeks should surely help him get used to college life. "Small town meets big world" thing.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Gosh, when my D did summer things (or, in one case, a Spring thing), it was not at all about developing a hook. As with Hautbois, we didn't even know what a "hook" was until well into the college selection/application process. My kid went to Camp Winnarainbow for a million years, and became a stilt master, a lake master, and a devil stick performer extraordinaire. Each time she went, she regained herself in some essential way after each public school year. A Teen Camp experience provided the basis for one of her college essays, though: sweatshop evils and their relationship to globalization. Ha.

She did go to the Concordia, month-long summer immersion camp that gave her a year's worth of HS credit, and let her begin in second year HS French when she entered HS.

She's thinking of Reggae on the River for this summer.

:-)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Until just eight months ago, I'd never encountered the noun "hook" except in the context of fishing.

Lord...am I a bad fisherman. The tribe would starve.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Camp is a great opportunity for kids.
While some parents may in fact choose opportunities with an eye toward college admissions, we were more concerned with immediate interests and results.
My oldest began volunteering at the zoo when she was 12 and continued through high school for over 2000 hrs of work. She did take a break for a couple weeks in the summer, but that was so she could work at camp as a wrangler in training.

My youngest is looking forward to when her name comes up on the waitlist at the zoo. While her sister began at 12, now the waitlist is two years long so she has to wait till she is 14.
She is registered for camp though and she would do all summer if she could.( but yes camp is spendy- the flight camp her sister is working at this summer charges $400 a week for day camp)
She isn't social , in fact she has a lot of anxiety usually, but she loves to go to camp and make new friends and have new experiences. She loves it even more, now that her sister doesn't work there.
( Something about having a parent or an older sibling involved that makes everyone else think that you will be perfect in everyway- puts a cramp in their ideas thats for sure)
Since she has a tough time in school, she should probably be involved in something academic, but we are again going to attempt to do that on our own.
Otherwise everything she is signed up to do this summer is physical. Rock climbing camp, English riding camp( overnight), soccer camp & volleyball camp.

She isn't a jock, but those were her choices. SHe is on soccer and volleyball teams at school, and can use some extra practice. I am also trying to encourage her interest in rock climbing. We have a great gym nearby and from what I hear, climbing is compared to martial arts in it's ability to help students learn concentration and focus.
Since most of her activity doesn't strenghten her upper body to any appreciable degree, it sounded like a good choice.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Thears - I'd be interested in hearing more about your d's Concordia experience. My daughter has stumbled across one of their programs (in Minnesota I think) and wants to take Japanese next summer. I was wondering about the quality of the programs. She is doing French in school and loves it but after a family trip to Japan a few years ago has an afinity for all things Japanese.

By Medprof (Medprof) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 06:15 pm: Edit

A good friend of mine has highly recommended Concordia. Her son took Japanese there for at least two summers and had really good experience. He kept it up with private lessons during school year. He's now at Brown with a career goal of international business.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Everyone who responded so far to Morgantruce's post pretty much aligns with my own experiences and thoughts. Morgan, I do understand where you are coming from. But I do not think you can generalize that everyone who enrolls their kids in summer activities is doing so for college application purposes in mind. I have read of that mentality, yes, on these forums....often the kid forums. I have read numerous posts by kids who ask if it would look good to do this or that EC for college....what EC should they do? And I have seen them ask about enrolling in courses over summer to also look good for college. So, I am aware now of this way of thinking and yes, it does exist. But I just know that it is foreign from my own experiences in my family and from what I can see ,of some others who have responded.

As far as ECs during the school year AND summer programs, I never once even thought of college and the whole application stuff. My kids activities have been ones they have engaged in since they were teeny tiny little ones and have stuck with their entire childhoods cause they love doing them. They did not enter high school thinking of what should I do to look good for college. They just kept doing the kinds of activities they have always done cause they chose to do them. As far as summers, it has been really that same way as well. I never even have heard of a hook til I read these college forums this year. Even now that I have read that, we have not differed in any choices we have made for summers, etc. When it comes time for the applications, I guess my daughter can show all she has done and been engaged in and maybe there will be something she should highlight...we have yet to figure that out but that is the next step I suppose (just finished junior year). Even if she never went to college, she would be doing exactly what she is doing now, I am so certain. I think the only thing she has done with college in mind is to work hard academically cause she is driven in that area and has goals to attend a challenging college cause she likes that atmosphere for learning. The only other thing she did for college was to take the tests (cause she had to...lol, unfortunately!).

I realize that many summer programs are costly. I make no apologies for spending large sums of money on my kids' activities, out of choice as a priority. It is in part due to affording some of them and in part cause of a value system likely from my own upbringing. Frankly, I can barely afford the summer stuff but I am just trying to find a way cause my kids adore their summer programs so much that I cannot bear to not let them continue. Some spend money on private schools and the like. We spend ours I guess on ECs and summer things that enrich their lives and follow their interests. But many things can be done that cost way less. So, it is not all about the money really. It is about finding worthwhile things to engage in that you have an interest in. Honestly, I am glad I have such active kids who are constantly busy. They have no time for TV, never hang out and get into some negative stuff that teens can turn to these days, etc. We live in a rural area and I find that by doing activities, this is also their social time with kids who enjoy similar interests.

I never thought my kids would attend overnight summer camps cause we live in a place that LOOKS just like camp and affords many of the same activities. When my kids were younger, I was sorta the "camp director" shuttling them all day in summer from dance programs, horseback riding lessons and competitions, tennis lessons, swim lessons, etc. I had grown up going to overnight camp for ten summers in the Poconos for 8 weeks each summer and I must say, my fondest childhood memories are from camp. And while I can take my kids to similar activities in my community, I cannot replicate the camp experience...the whole social thing and the independence, etc. Actually when my girls go off to college, separation (for them anyway) will not be an issue as they have been away from home for extended periods for years, and btw, they LOVE it and count the days all year til they return. My 14 yr. old's away message on her IM right now has the countdown on it and she is phoning all her long distance summer friends from all over the US who she misses dearly all year and will see again next week. None of this has anything to do with college in our minds. It is like her life! If you only knew!

My kids begged to go to overnight camp many years ago. The first summer they went to a general one for 2 weeks (ages 8 and 10) and loved it. The rest of summer was in local programs. They both wanted then to go to performing arts camps out of state the following summer. I thought, ok, for one three week session, and then still do the local programs the rest of summer but both begged to go for six weeks. They were ages 9 and 11 at the time and there has been no turning back cause of how immensely they loved it. The first summer was a gift from their grandparents and now I cannot bear to turn the girls down and try hard to come up with the funds to return each year. My 14 year old is about to leave for her sixth summer at her beloved theater camp in NY, for six weeks. It is her heaven on earth. This child has an extreme passion for musical theater and hopes to go on in college and beyond in this area. But she never went there with college in mind. She went cause she has been smitten with theater since preschool! This camp has strengthened her drive in this field. Cause of it, she has eventually dropped all her sports and this has become her life's work it seems. She is with other kids from all over who share her passion. As it has turned out, so many have gone onto college in this field but I do not think anyone who attends attended with that in mind. It has been more that the interest got so deep from it that they chose to pursue it further as they got older. It has turned out that the track record for so many from her camp has been admission to top theater programs in college but it likely is due to these kids having just fallen deeper in love with the stage after going there and it turned into a life's ambition after attending. Actually a movie is coming to theaters this July that is entitled, "Camp". It was filmed at my daughter's theater camp, but with actors, not the kids attending. It was written and directed by an alum loosely based on his experiences going to such a camp. Hope you guys can see it!

My 16 year old went to a different performing arts camp in NY for four summers. She loved hers as well. Her program was individualized there and she was able to combine several interests to focus on....musical theater, dance, tennis, and waterskiing each day. The program fit her to a T as she is someone who is immersed in both the performing arts and sports. She could play in competitive tennis and soccer teams there and continue her dance classes. She took waterskiing daily as she has always wanted to do that but cannot at home and is a competitive alpine ski racer so it was something she knew she would love and she did. She has done lots of theater growing up and has no time for the school shows in high school cause of sports conflicts so was able to do two musicals each summer there...her way to get that interest into her year. This camp had an amazing music program and while she does two intruments, concert band and jazz band at home, she did not even get involved in that at camp cause of no time and she felt that she has so many opportunities for that during the school year. It is nice in summer sometimes to get to do some things you cannot do at home.

While she loved going there, she started realizing in tenth grade that she only had two more summers left "growing up" and realized she wanted to do some other things. She planned out her remaining summers at that time in a general framework. Summer after tenth grade, she went on a six week teen travel program throughout the western US, Western Canada and Hawaii. She loves travel and there is no way we can take that amount of time off to take her on such a trip and this was a chance to see the country with kids her own age. She chose a trip that combined camping, hotels, resorts, and campus stays. It was an amazing time for her. I know you have had the good fortune to take your kids on an amazing year long sailing trip. My brother did that kind of thing for a year with his family all around the world. We have not been able to do that so I am glad my child got to see our wonderful country. This summer, she is going to Europe for 32 days. She is doing a program that involves playing in tennis tournaments against Europeans in several countries, as well as sightseeing in all these countries. It allows her to improve her tennis match skills (is on the high school team here) and she loves other cultures and travel, and she can do some immersion and not just sightsee as she spends a week at a time with European teens at their tennis clubs. I know what you mean about people picking things to do for college. I remember when we researched travel programs for her this summer, and we called this program, the director, who is a former guidance counselor, said, this will look great for college and I was thinking, I never ever thought of that....she was just wanting to go to foreign countries and liked the idea of combining it with tennis. But the program office is based in an area where I can tell you, people are obssessed with getting into colleges and thus their clientele likely do think about this stuff, but it was not where we were coming from. My daughter just really wants to do this for its own sake.

When she gets back from Europe, she lined up a job at a local architect's office (possibly working at a second one too as it goes along). She looked into this cause she has been exploring a career area all year that she might like to pursue down the line. Some "majors" you experience in high school, like history. But some you really do not. And she has an interest in architecture. So, to learn more about it, she did a yearlong indep. study in drafting, mechanical drawing and AutoCad. She did her final paper and project for American Studies on the designs for the World Trade Center rebuilding. And she thinks she would like to see what an architect really does by spending time in an office and helping out. She has chosen her college list somewhat around this major and that narrowed the choices down a lot and it would be nice to at least see a bit more if this really is a field she would like before making so many choices around it. She lit up when she met at their office to line up the job and the architect said she could help build the models. She just cannot wait to do it. But I cannot imagine doing this to get into college. Ya gotta want to do this stuff. I think of how she gets up at 5:30 AM for a ski race and nobody does that on weekends so they have an EC for college. The job at the architect's is on her only free weeks of summer, and she has soccer preseason as well. But she really wants to do this.

Will any of it look good for college? I really do not care. I just want them to be happy. My guess is that now that we are starting the college process with the oldest, that it did not hurt that she has been one busy girl and has done a bunch of interests in a committed way. I say that more as looking back on it, not as something that was the motivation when she began the activities. I suppose if in an interview, the person asked, what would you hope to study in college and how did you get interested in that area or did you have any exposure. Sure, she could say she did an indep. study or worked in an office. If someone asks how she spent her summers, she does have a bunch to tell. But that is kinda an offshoot I suppose of how she spent her youth.

I guess I think of part of childhood as being a time to explore different things and something will engage you. Once it does, you want to do that activity a whole bunch. People often ask me how my younger one got so involved in being a theater person, and I say, I never would have known this would happen. It was just one of many activities when very young that she had tried or was exposed to and it kept growing and growing and some other things were dropped eventually. Summers are also a chance to do these fun things and get a break from academics (in my view). And the growth that has occurred from these summer experiences, the independence, the incredible long distance friendships, are ones my kids will never forget I imagine.

College? I guess that is upon us. And the child can tell what she has done leading up to that. But it was never FOR that that she did anything but go to school! (and take those fun tests for college admission...can't forget that activity...lol).

I know this is long but I think it shows another side of doing activities or summer things for the joy of it or the interest or passion. Things in life are not always done to get a leg up for college. But I realize that that way of thinking does exist out there. Believe me, my eyes have been opened to many points of view by reading these forums (students and parents) from all over the world. That is why I guess I wrote this cause I do not think you can generalize or make assumptions about all these families' choices. As I am reading above, so many have done what they have for similar reasons that I just shared. Just as I imagine that the year you traveled with your family is one you did for the incredible experience, learning, family bonding, adventure and so forth. I am sure, the little I know of you, that you did not do that with your kids for the college resume! Do they have something to share about it in the application process? I bet they do. But that is ok. It has been part of their life experience. Hopefully many of life's experiences were not done for college admissions (except trying hard on school work to do as well as one can).

Sorry so long.....I guess I just related to this thread a bunch.
Susan

By Tabbycat (Tabbycat) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Re the "exercise" about Winslow, Arizona: Take It Easy! Which is what a great many parents need to do about all this college stuff! (myself included)

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit

Carolyn: The Concordia programs are *excellent*. The month long, HS credit program that my daughter did totally prepared her to go into second year HS french. She got lots of support there, and had to produce a certain amount of written work and projects that then went directly to her HS, which gave her full credit. Actually, they gave her honors credit. I'm sure the rest of the foreign language programs are as good.

It sure ain't cheap. Especially when you add in the airfare from the west coast.

The month-long separation was a bit tough on both of us, but she was only 14 at the time.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 02:57 am: Edit

Got it in one, Tabby. TheMom tends to mis-remember lyrics and thought it was supposed to be a "bright red" Ford. I've been listening to Jackson Browne since the Watergate hearings. I think one of his kids may be going to D's high school next year.

I just couldn't drive by Winslow and not go into town, know what I mean?

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 08:38 am: Edit

Looking back to my original post, I did use the word "camp"--which cast far too wide a net. I was certainly not thinking of recreational camps in this post. I went to one (a few years ago) and I don't remember thinking about how it would look on my college application as I paddled around the lake. My daughter is working at a summer camp as an "English as a Second Language" specialist. But there's no need for anyone to hash over fond memories of summer camp singing "Everywhere We Go". Those camps were not what I had in mind. The camps I referred to were the ones where even sneakers are an afterthought---the ones with serious overtones of "this WILL get you into college."

I was very careful NOT to actually name any of the culprits in my rant---mostly out of fear of being hit by lightning. I assume everyone knows the difference between a fun type recreational summer camp and a deadly serious "camp" that is hyped to get college applicants accepted into high prestige schools.

Maybe someone ought to start a thread on "fond summer camp experiences"---because most of us could write volumes on that subject. What I'm referring to in this thread is stuff that no adult would ever look back on and think, "Wow...that was fun!"

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 09:24 am: Edit

Morgan, sorry, I might have misinterpretted your original post. I know so many people on the forums do talk about choosing this or that program to look good for college. I just knew that was not going on here and yet, I did spend money on programs for my kids both EC during the year and in summers for their enjoyment and enrichment. But I think now I get that you are referring to certain summer programs aimed specifically as good college hooks and drawing people to take those for that reason.

I understand. For instance, let's say you were speaking of something like National Youth Leadership Forum on Law or Medicine. I have read many posts on that and some put it down a lot. Some ask if one should attend to look good for college? No matter the program, camp or one of these, I think the issue is more about one's motivation for attending such things. My daughter got invitations to both the medicine one and the law one. At our school, one student was selected by faculty to be given this invitation. In that sense, locally ,it was selective as to the type of student who might attend. I have no idea how it is done elsewhere but I gather differently. When the one came on medicine, she thought it looked interesting but not only was it expensive but the dates overlapped by a day with her six week travel program that summer so would not work. I could see attending such a thing if the child had an interest in exploring the field of medicine and wanted some exposure to that career. For that reason, it seemed it could be worthwhile as they do not get alot of exposure to certain careers and this sounded like it might provide that. I have interviewed a student for admissions who went to it and got a lot out of it. As far as the law one, again we looked it over. My daughter said that she did not wish to attend cause she felt that was a alot of money considering she really did not think she was interested in going into law or related fields. I agree with her. If she was interested, it might have been a chance to learn more about the field or meet with other kids who share that interest. She also hated the idea of missing a week of school to go to it cause that is very hard to do. I mention this cause I think IF she had gone to this sort of thing, it would have been to learn about a career field she was considering entering. So, some people do not pick things with college admissions in mind. I never even thought of that aspect when the invitations arrived. I interviewed a kid this year who went to the law one and enjoyed it. So, I think while I am reading some pretty negative stuff about such programs on the forum, that I am not passing judgement on kids attending them if their motivation is to get exposure to a field of interest. But as you said, some seem to go for these things as ways to add to the college resume and that is the main motivation and I too do not align with that idea. Spending all this money to do this or that so they can look good for college is something that does amaze me at times but it is good for me to read of all these attitudes around the country in various communities. It just is not prevalent at all where we live. Like I said, even my daughter's summer tennis travel program's director mentioned how this program looks good for college and it never occurred to me to view it in that way. She just wanted to do it!

Not absolutely sure how college admissions committees will know, but I hope they can see when a student has pursued interests and been committed to them and not just done things to get into college.

Also, am not knocking others who do this, but I read of so many who attend summer academic programs also to look good for college. To each his/her own. To me, summer is a time to pursue things besides academics and while those academic programs certainly look worthwhile, my kids have always turned them down as they want to do these other things in summer that they cannot do when in school. But I realize some people like to do academics in summer. I hope that is why they do them and not to add to the college resume. There is life beyond schoolwork!

I, for one, am soooooo happy my kids are getting a break from schoolwork as they worked so hard for ten months of the year. I just wish my daughter was not given summer homework due the first day of school but that is a different topic.

Anyway, I hear you, Morgan and am sorry if I misinterpretted your original post to mean spending money on all summer programs. I think we are on the same page when it comes to people's motivations for enrolling or paying for certain programs to get into college.
Susan

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 09:31 am: Edit

PS...to Morgan....your post originally caught my eye cause of the P. T. Barnum reference and I smiled. yeah, he really like to pull the wool over people's eyes! Last summer, my younger daughter was in the musical, Barnum, which tells the story of P. T.'s life so I know it well. One role she played was that of Joice Heth, who Barnum purported to be the oldest woman alive at age 160 or some such ( I forget the number but it was around there). I researched the story behind that claim and it was quite something. It was a funny role and song that my daughter did for it and she was made up to look really old (she was 13). I think the song was I Hate to Be Old or something along those lines.

The other thing that caught my eye when you said, Barnum, is......my college alma mater, Tufts, has as its mascot, Jumbo, from Barnum and Baileys Circus. Jumbo's stuffed hide was on display at the college and was then destroyed by fire shortly before I arrived there. But Tufts folks are the Jumbos!

Susan

By Kmom (Kmom) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 09:50 am: Edit

Thedad -

I am finding it important to have some perspective and balance having just gone through this process with my graduating senior son,

I think taking it easy is good advice.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

Jumbo Lives!!!

We live so remotely that it wasn't until we had completed several years of homeschooling when my daughters figured out that most other kids did not study during the summer! Yeah, and I sure didn't want to offer that bit of information either!

Being fairly traditional folks ourselves (uhh huh...), we finished the first year of home school and then took a nice long summer break. The next fall we experienced the very same thing that all (real) teachers notice: you spend September to November just catching up on what was forgotten over the summer.

From that point on, we never took a long summer break. I know this is hard for everyone to believe, but our kids could not get enough of school! When they were young they would ask for "more school ideas" when the day's lesson plans were completed. Later on, when they eventually assumed more of the responsibility of determining the direction of their own education, they actually "gave it more gas" rather than hitting the brakes.

I sure don't claim that this kind of "zest for school" is common among home schooled students--or is unknown in traditional schools; I only claim that it is wonderful to behold!

Did we shield our children from several activities highly touted as "...necessary for the child's progression to blah, blah, blah...?" Yes... guilty your Honor.

Did we avoid registering them for gloomy sounding forums, programs, conferences, camps, and seminars that promised great things? Yes... guilty again, your Honor.

The sight of many people heading down a particular path, usually makes me stop and question where that path goes---rather than just follow.(Sorry for the lofty platitude.)

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 11:25 am: Edit

Morgantruce, your daughters' path sounds right for them, but I find myself puzzled about why you describe forums and conferences as "gloomy sounding" and assume that everyone who goes to them is foolishly following the crowd. Sometimes what sounds gloomy to one person sounds very exciting to another. My son went to a basketball camp, for example, and loved every minute. I myself would not have enjoyed it! Most of my son's friends were home hanging out all summer, or working. His choice to attend some summer programs was definitely not following any crowd.

We have a loosely phrased rule in our house. When possible, we are willing to invest in programs *when we see that our kids have invested themselves in the particular subject or activity.* We are not into buying them random "experiences" of seeing tortoises in the Pacific or whatever. The money will come from us only when the energy and motivation come from them. When you approach summer programs -- or any other aspect of education -- this way, you challenge your young person, help them understand themselves better, and encourage them to commit to the things that are important to them. My son's experience at NSLC was a life-changing one, because he was already totally crazy about law, read books about it, etc. etc. before he got there. He spent his whole freshman year frustrated because his school's mock-trial team conflicted with basketball, and he wanted a chance to do more. When he got to NSLC and had a chance to defend cases and to talk about law with other kids, counselors, and professors, he hit the ground running. The following summer he went to Cornell's Honor College for Sophomores, where he took a law-related course and again, loved it and quoted his professor and books all year. The summer after that he took a politics course at Yale, which he still raves about, and his school sent him to Boys' State, no cost to us!

My kids have met the occasional rich kid who gets sent to these programs and yawns his or her way through it, but for the most part the kids they've met have been grateful and eager to be there and to get involved.

Do I think these programs provide a "hook"? Some of them are unquestionably hokey and overpriced, and the kids know exactly which ones these are. Do I think even the good programs provide some cachet that a kid couldn't get by doing something interesting in his or her hometown? No. For the purposes of applying to college, working in a deli is a perfectly respectable activity that shows responsibility, an ability to deal with the public, etc. etc.

Some kids need to go beyond their hometowns. Mine have both been desperate to get out there and meet kids from all over the country who are motivated and energetic. Although I am sure my son's courses at Cornell and Yale, like any college-level courses, showed something of his ability to do college-level work, for the most part, it was the *experience* of going to these programs and really getting engaged in them that led to huge growth in him. I know that growth was reflected in his college application, between the lines of his essays, but, frankly, it was worth every penny just for its own sake. I think anyone who thinks a summer program itself -- unless it is Telluride, where my son refused to apply because he thought everyone there would be a geek (sigh) -- is some kind of imprimatur is wrong and even ridiculous. But a carefully chosen summer program can give a young person some wonderful opportunities to grow.

By Texas137 (Texas137) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 12:18 pm: Edit

There are some fabulous camps out there! There are probably more worthwhile summer camps and activities than there are worthwhile schools to attend the rest of the year. Some of them have funding sources, but many of them don't, even if they are non-profit. That means students have to pay to go there, otherwise the program cannot provide room/board, materials, pay staff etc. I think Aparent's philosophy of investing in activites which the child has themselves invested in is a good one. My son attended one of those talent search camps, and is about to return for a 3rd time to a math camp. These have been fabulous, rewarding experiences for him which he looks forward to all year. I consider them well worth the money I have to spend and I would recommend them to anyone who loves math. I'm sure that there are music/sports/drama/whatever camps that are just as good.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Aparent, You are stretching my words into things I did not say.
"gloomy sounding forums, programs, conferences..." does NOT mean that ALL forums...are gloomy! Does it?


"usually makes me stop and question where that path goes..." does NOT mean that I think anyone is being foolish. Does it?


I specifically did not metion any program by name... and you seem to be assuming that I am talking about every single activity that you and your children are involved with. That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

Your comments sound pretty defensive--considering I did not say anything you ascribe to me.

By Medprof (Medprof) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Even CTY programs, which are very intense academically, provided such a beloved experience for my two children and their friends. Kids cry when they leave as "nevermores" because they cannot come back again. My D started going to these programs because her best friend was applying. What they learned on the subject may be quite insignificant and I don't really care if it helps them in college applicatons. The positives are:
1. They meet other kids who are as smart, or smarter than they are, so they find out for themselves that they are just fish in a small pond. This forewarns them about competition for college admission and help to prevent the shock of discovery during first year of college.
2. They learn to function away from home for three weeks. My S was homesick the first year, but he got over it. He matured so much as a result.
3. They establish friendships with kids that share common personal traits and interests with them from different parts of the country, and even from some foreign countries. They have reunions and continue to be great friends into their college years. They inspire and comfort each other, often more than the friends they make in their public schools.
My D wrote a heart-felt essay about her CTY friendship experience for the college she's going to attend.

We don't jump at everything offered to us. My D turned down the invitations for the National Youth Leadership Conferences. I do think CTY has great merits, and it's not limited to rich kids because of the real financial aid available.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Medprof,
Thanks for the words on CYT. My son (7th grade)qualified to go this year but the program he wanted most (greek mythology)was already closed and he didn't seem too jazzed about anything else so we decide to wait until next year. I'd wondered if the program was as good as it sounded.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Morgantruce, I appreciate your contributions to these boards, but your colorful way of writing sometimes sounds a bit arrogant to me. For example, you ridicule one potential summer trip as "a hastily booked group cruise with several hundred other boring people with more credit cards than brains, a fat cruise ship just offshore--playing endless Jimmy Buffet tunes."

I chose to offer a relatively detailed account of my own son's experiences with summer programs not in order to defend myself or him personally, but so that you could have another lens through which to view the subject. I think a discussion is far richer if we do that, as have so many others on this thread, rather than simply poking fun at people and programs others may be involved in. Seems to me there is room for all kinds of summers.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Medprof...I can really identify with what you wrote. Actually, my kids did the CTY talent search and qualified for those summer programs and I thought they sounded wonderful. My kids did not avail themselves of these programs only cause they already attended summer performing arts programs that they loved and did not want to give up. My younger daughter did one of the college level writing mentorships through them during the year instead and my older one is going to do Calculus BC through them this coming year. I have interviewed a girl for college admissions who did the CTY summer program in writing at Skidmore and LOVED it and spoke a lot about it in her interview. She, too, spoke of the friendships made there. We had a whole conversation about that aspect of such a summer program cause my own daughter is soooooooo close with friends she has made from all over at her theater camp. While she loves her home friends as well, the camp friends share her passion and the bonds made at this summer program are a huge offshoot of the whole experience. This is akin to CTY but just a different passion. That is why I was saying that if a child went to a law forum or a medicine forum, he/she hopefully is going to gain from learning more about a field she/he is interested in and also meet up with and bond with kids who have a common interest. It really is not that different than my daughter is going to Europe with other kids that play competitive tennis. She does not know anyone til she arrives in NYC next week but I already know she will bond with many cause of that common passion.

That is why I would not put down any of these programs....even the summer pre-college ones (even if my own kids do not want to do academics in summer....some kids do!). The main thing is that the child is choosing to do these things out of great interest and what they will gain from the experience. If it is to get a leg up for college, I really think it is not that worth the money. Can a student reflect on these experiences once college application time comes? Likely they could if they so choose. But that comes after the fact in my view.

Frankly, I would rather see kids engaged in meaningful activities rather than sit around all summer which is often a recipe for either boredom or trouble. And it is not all about affording expensive programs. There are scholarships to some. And then there is volunteer work and paid jobs. When I interview kids, I always admire the ones that have held a job. My own child worked as a server in the dining room at a country inn all fall to earn money for the Tennis Europe program who matched her earnings with scholarship money (a nice small dent into the tuition). She is actually waiting on guests there at a wedding tonight. She did not get the job to look good for college. But all these things, in RETROSPECT, do make for a nice balance of experiences that have enriched her childhood and may be looked upon favorably in the admissions process. But to do stuff like this just to get in, no thanks.

I can see that the parents/families on this parent forum have had their kids take the lead and follow their interests. Now we are all wrapped up in the college admissions thing but I do not think we are looking for what the child can do more to get in. At least speaking for myself, I will be interested come fall on how to take what she has already done in life and show it in a good light. Have no clue what her "hooks" are. I guess we can reflect on what she has done and give this some thought now that she has done all this stuff.
Susan

By Shennie (Shennie) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 01:54 pm: Edit

A couple of comments here. My youngest is going back to Concordia for the third summer. He is going to be a sophmore and only attends the 2 week programs, not the 4. He has loved it and always wants to go back. We live in Wisconsin, so there a lot of kids that we know who attend and everyone we know has had a positive experience. I would feel comfortable highly recommending any of their summer programs.

Comment #2 - Ten years ago if you had told me that we would end up shelling out the kind of money we do for summer camps I would have told you you were nuts. But my kids have had wonderful experiences that I am very glad to be able to give them. My oldest is a musician and we discovered that for kids interested in performance who do not attend performing arts high schools, summer programs become essential. They are not hooks so much as a chance for students to concentrate on their playing for 6-8 weeks to the exclusion of everything else. It also gave him exposure to different teachers and other kids who play at his level. Ultimately, it helped him to be more competitive when he was auditioning for conservatory than he would have been otherwise.

Once we started providing that kind of experience for son #1, it was not possible to tell sons #2 and 3 that they couldn't pursue their passions also. Son #2 has spent several summers at a camp that specializes in wilderness trips. He has gone on increasingly more difficult backpacking trips. However, this summer he is home because he was not able to contribute financially to his portion of the trip that he wanted to take. Once they hit 16, we expect some commitment on their part to help finance part of this expensive endeavor. We make the goal reasonable. Maybe he can manage it by next summer.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Aparent, I apologize for my feeble attempts at humor. I could not imagine anyone would actually relate to such obvious fiction and then take offense. Sorry. In the future I will put this: to serve as an alert.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Thank you. Now, having clicked through your link, the only thing I am trying to figure out is why Walt Disney took the name "Jumbo" and changed it to "Dumbo."

By Texas137 (Texas137) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Any activity, summer or otherwise, is going to be a bust of the student (or parents) pick it solely because of how they think it will appear on college applications. The math camp my son loves would probably be pergutory for many or even most students (fortunately, I think they are weeded out by the application process). Similarly if he was forced to go to some camp about law/medicine/languages to try to look good for colleges. That's like having to go to summer school to repeat something you flunked. I cannot imagine a setting more contrary to encouraging a love of learning.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 03:20 pm: Edit

"the only thing I am trying to figure out is why Walt Disney took the name "Jumbo" and changed it to "Dumbo."

Keep us posted.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Texas... I think you have it right. I recently received an email from someone I hadn't seen in years. They spoke about sending their son to some (nameless) summer programs---AND were very confident that those actions would get him into Princeton. Now, I remember their son as very care-free and easy going...and will choose to hope that he remains so. Even my daughter, who read the email, summarized it with: "Driven!"

I guess that email got me launched into this thread.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Shennie...yeah what you posted is what I see here as well. There are no performing arts high schools in my state. Sure, my younger daughter would love such a setting. I am fine with her going to a regular public school with all types of kids. But when she goes to her theater camp, she does get to have that six weeks in an environment where everyone is mucho passionate about the theater. And it is like a home to her. Also for performers, it is great to have some training with different people. We love our dance and voice teachers here but she gets different perspectives from taking with other ones in summer. She can be in shows of such a high quality cause of gathering such top notch talented performers in one place, compared to a regular high school (though I must admit that our high school musicals are outstanding). But this is a different pool of kids.

Well, I just opened my mail and my daughter just received a scholarship toward tuition to her theater camp (she does not know it yet as she is 50 miles away in a three day intensive workshop in our state for musical theater). A local woman who died set up a scholarship fund for local high schoolers who wish to pursue the arts in summer or in college and my daughter applied and we never heard and she leaves in two days. We have been trying so hard to come up with the tuition money in two more days and wow, this is gonna help! I can't wait to tell her. I opened the envelope and could not figure out why my daughter was getting this big check as there was no letter with it. It took a while til I realized that the check was made out to her theater camp and then it hit me!

Susan

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Woo Hoo! Congratulations, Susan! And to your daughter, too...

By Shennie (Shennie) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Susan:

Congrats! That is wonderful. Now if I could just find something like that in my neck of the woods...

By Alita (Alita) on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 05:09 pm: Edit

About all of the Nslc's and Nylcs, and gslc's, etc.
I just got back from the nslc on int. diplomacy. When I signed up, it was because I had an interest in the topic. I didn't know what a hook was. And, while i sort of resent the fact that they tell you it will get you into college, I did have a great time.....i met cool people and actually learned a lot too. So, I guess what Im trying to say, is that maybe it wont get you into college, but if you do go, have fun and make worth the experience.....