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My son is a freshman in high school and, of course, he'll be dealing with PSAT's and SAT's in the next couple of years. Can anyone provide comments as to how your children went about preparing for these tests? Were the investments in SAT Prep courses or materials worth it in your opinion? Any materials or courses in particular that you would recommend?

Thanks for any responses.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

I'm philosophically opposed to Test Prep course. So, of course, we used one. TheMom points out that Test Prep just compensates for some of the extra focus private school kids get on this stuff and I suppose she's right.

We used Princeton Review one-on-one tutoring. It was necessary because TheDaughter has such a patchwork schedule with ballet commitments, etc., that there was no regularly scheduled class she could commit to. Though it's more expensive...I'm thinking it ran somewhere around $1,500 vs. $900...it was probably worth it because *all* the time was spent on her and her needs as opposed to being split among the needs of 10-20 people.

She took the tutoring late August through early October of junior year. PSAT went from 189 sophomore to 226 junior (69 Math, 77 Verbal, 80 Writing); initial SAT was 690 verbal, 710 math. She will retake the SAT again this October after taking two SAT II's in June and then do a re-take of the SAT II Writing in November.

Time is a precious commodity in this household and we used dollars we were fortunate to have for the trade-off.

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Neither of our kids took courses. I purchased a book so they could study. Our son didn't bother. Our daughter did, but only a wee bit. Both scored over 1400 on SAT 1 (D got 800 on Verbal), and did fine on the SAT 2, but no perfect scores there. Oh ... EXCEPT that D took the Chemistry, not realizing she probably should have taken AP Chemistry to take the test. Still, she had over 700 on three tests, so Chemistry didn't really count. Each of our kids didn't do great on math -- got under 700 on those. No one in this family is a math whiz, that's for sure!

They both did the SAT 1 a few times (son did twice, daughter did three because the first time was just a goofy practice when she wasn't near ready). They did 2s only one time each.

I think it truly depends on the kid; tutoring might have helped the kids on math, but they excel at English anyway. ( I also don't care for the whole idea of paying for tutoring when the kids have easy access to lots of help, but that's just me.)

By Cvillelion (Cvillelion) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 04:59 pm: Edit

I'm also philosophically opposed to spending big bucks on this but worry about putting my kids on a level playing field. It was much easier when I was a HS student. Never heard of Kaplan, Sylvan or Princeton Review. :o)

Books vs. classes vs. private tutoring . . . in the end I suppose it will come down to his commitment to doing well. Thanks both for your input.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

I would NOT spend a dime on the classes NOW. Everybody is different but the rewards/cost for the PREP classes are very debatable. Regardless, it would serve very little to spend money as a freshman on the prep classes.

With an investment of a couple hundreds dollars, you will be able to buy about every book written on the subject and suscribe to a few online services.

Review them and pick the style and difficulty that is more appropriate for your son.

Then have him start on working on the various practice tests that are made available BY College Board. Only use the official tests, the other offered by PR, Kaplan, Gruber are not worth spending much time on them. The idea is NOT to learn the material but to get very comfortable with the type of questions and start understanding the ETS mindset.

If you decide not too spend that much on books, just get the 2nd and 3d Edition of College Board 10 Real SAT, download the few that are available online and that should give you about 14 tests to work from. Ask you schools if they have OLD packets for the PSAT and SAT. Then, spend some time at your local bookstore and check one or two strategy books.

Make sure that your son takes the PSAT BEFORE the Junior year for practices.

To increase his vocabulary and reading comprehension, get some good reading books. There are lots of good lists floating on these boards with suggestions about books. Order a subscription to a few magazines like Time, Newsweek, or even Sports Illustrated.

Finally, have him practice his writing as much as he can.

If you do all of the above in the next 2 years, your son will be EXTREMELY well prepared for the PSAT. Based on his results on the Junior Year PSAT and, maybe, a practice run on the SAT, you will be able to ascertain his progress and also his needs.

If you are not happy with the results, then "interview" the companies offering prep classes. At least you will know exactly where you stand and you wont buy unneeded advice. I seriously doubt that ANY of the company would give you a money-back guaranteed when learning how well you have been preparing.

There are no secrets or magic shortcuts. It will take some time. It is important to learn the appropriate strategies but all of the "tricks" are available at a much lower price than offered by the PR and Sylvan of the world.

Enjoy!

By Boysmom (Boysmom) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

I don't believe in prep courses either. The kids are either prepared for these tests or they aren't. And if they need to spend the time and the thousands of dollars to raise their score enough to get into some school, then maybe they don't belong there. All three of my kids tested just fine and got into the schools they wanted. My niece wasn't even going to take the PSAT because she said "she didn't need the practice" but I convinced her to since it would be a cheap method of preparing for the SAT. She was a National Merit finalist and then scored 1530 on the SAT.

By Beenthereil (Beenthereil) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 06:45 pm: Edit

The only thing that I would do differently would be to buy a book for my son to help him with the writing/English portion of the PSAT.

Did fine on the SAT with no prep.

Did fine on the ACT with no prep...said it was "boring".

Goes to a very competitive public high school and has taken all of the Honors Classes and AP Classes available.

More importantly, he is not a nerd.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 07:20 pm: Edit

I too would recommend the college board's "10 Real Sat's"

If you take one of the tests in that book--timed, and with honesty--- you will be able to score it yourself and come up with a pretty good indicator of how you will score on the real PSAT and SAT tests.

Both my daughters scores they figured out from the "10 Real SAT's" book were very close to the real thing.

If the "practice scores" you get are lower than you really think YOU should be doing, there is then time to do something before taking the real thing. The main thing is: do all your preparation BEFORE taking the real tests. Then you will know what to expect.

If you don't get what you expect, you have a good reason to re-take the test. If you do get what you expect, you have no reason to re-take the test---although there are many people who disagree with my opinion on this. They like the idea of taking the test cold, then studying some and taking it again---so that the college board makes a lot of money and the student becomes a nervous wreck.

Practice BEFORE you take, not after!

By Nymom (Nymom) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 07:47 am: Edit

Times have really changed. When I was in high school, no one prepped for the SAT (which was then the Scholastic "Aptitude" Test), and any score over 1300 was considered fantastic. We were told we "couldn't" study because the test measured "aptitude." Now everyone preps, the test has been recentered, and ivy candidates have anxiety attacks over scores under 1500. Although I certainly don't condone anything that increases the pressure on our kids,I am equally disturbed by the elitist suggestion that naturally good test takers are somehow more entitled to their high scores (on what is now officially denominated an "Assessment" test) than those who prep for the test. (And, just so you know this isn't sour grapes, in high school I was an indifferent student who got into a top tier school because of high SATs.)

By Cvillelion (Cvillelion) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 08:31 am: Edit

Thanks to all for your input. It's encouraging to hear the balanced viewpoints in the posts above. Sometimes (where I live) it seems like everyone is sending their children to $1000+ classes, which is obviously not the case. Still, it tends to foster a bit of paranoia on my part (insert deep breath here).

Study guides, practice tests and just becoming comfortable with the format seems like the right approach for now. My son plans on taking the PSAT next year (sophomore year) and that will be a good benchmark for him.

Thanks again.

By Beenthereil (Beenthereil) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:18 am: Edit

Cv...If he's already good in Math, be sure to get him a book to help him prepare for the writing/English part of the PSAT.

Don't give easy points away. Could mean the difference between a Commended and a Semi-finalist.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:42 am: Edit

I have similar recollections, Nymom, and appreciate as well your point about elitist assumptions.

I'll add my support to the chorus suggesting the 10 REAL SAT's book is likely the best, accessible preparation. My d did the USC prep course, but the book was much more helpful. Practice seems to be everything. My d also had one hour of tutoring for the math portion - the (professional) tutor spent most of the time affirming my d's knowledge, giving her relaxation tips, and helping her identify the traps and tricks. D increased her math score by 100 points.

OTOH, I know of a naturally high achieving student whose parents would not allow him to get anything less than 1500 on the SAT, so spent mega-bucks on after school tutoring until that magic number was reached. Thousands of $$ later...

What do economically disadvantaged kids do?

Well, one of my d's friends, who is both economically disadvantaged as well as parentally disadvantaged (you know - one of those kids who magically somehow raise themselves, and the kind of kid I find myself admiring far beyond those who get 1500+ on their SAT's), figured out on her own that she needed to take the SAT and how to sign up. She knew nothing about preparation, however, but still managed to get a 1270 on her first time out. This is also a kid who belongs in honors and AP classes, but has been so tracked, based on socio-economic assumptions, that her teachers have not allowed her into those classes - and mom is too disengaged to advocate for that change.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 11:15 am: Edit

My daughter took the SAT in 7th gd- and fall of senior year. PSAT spring of junior year. Didn't study as far as I could tell- I bought her a Princeton Review CD- but I think she looked at it once.
I think the CDs would be just as or more helpful than the books- more appealing anyway if someone wanted to study- don't know how accurate they are.
her school took care of signing up for the tests-everyone took them- I think she got 780V590M senior year- in 7th grade she didnt study at all- and got about a 990.Was just as proud of that 990 as her best friend who was in 6th grade and received a 1400!

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

Both my kids used books -- Ten Real SATs, Up Your Scoreand the math and verbal workouts published by PR. Son a National Merit Scholar, daughter scored 238 on National Merit and now waiting for the next step, both scored 1580 on the SAT. Both had very intense extracurricular commitments, and using review books was not only a lot less expensive than a tutor but easier; they could decide to devote 1/2 hour on a particular day when some time was freed up, or they could schedule a week ahead of time. Both kids are pretty clear on their own strengths and weaknesses and on how they learn best, and they were able to be very efficient and focused. Dh and I could offer encouragement and go over answers at times. I know quite a few very high scorers who used only review books, without being tutored or taking a course. Since you have some time, encourage your son to read, talk about what's in the newspaper, etc.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 11:56 am: Edit

Just thought I should point out that the SAT is going to be changing its format --- my daughter is also a freshman in high school this year and it's my understanding that the first group to take the new SAT will be those graduating in 2006 (in other words, our kids). It's not clear whether the PSAT that they will take will be the current test or something new.

According to what I've read, the NEW SAT verbal will eliminate analogies, add reading questions, and add a new writing section that will include specific grammar questions and a 25-minute essay.

The math will will includ higher level math skills than those now tested. Apparently, now the test is heavily focused on the math skills learned in basic Algebra and Geometry, as well as general math skills. The new test will add questions that will be learned in Algebra II and possibly beginning trigonometry. The quantitative comparison questions will be eliminated.

In short, since the test will be changing so much, it may not be worth it to invest too much time or money on currently available SAT prep books and classes right now. Instead, concentrate on getting your son into the best classes in English and math he's eligible for in school. And, make sure that his English classes teach grammar! The more writing the kids can do over the next two years -- the better.

The big question I have since this change is going to be made is whether it will still be worth it to take a practice PSAT in 10th grade if the actual PSAT and regular SAT are going to change all that much.

Another question that concerns me is the inclusion of Algebra II skills. Non-math honors students like my daughter will just be taking Algebra II in their Junior year --- so, it may be wise to delay taking the test until as late as possible in the year and then plan on retaking it in early senior year. Or, of course, hire a private math tutor.

In any case, it's all kind of cloudy right now.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

I too am troubled that the test-prep situation favors those kids who can afford prep books, courses, and private tutors. But no one benefits more from test-prep mania than the ETS, which makes money selling prep books, charging students for early access to exam scores, test-taking fees, etc.
As far as the best method to prep, I too favor going over old exams. 10 Real SATs is great. My son had a few sessions with a private tutor; basically they went over old exams (which my son did on his own) and he taught my son a few strategies to save time. My son is mildly LD and he needed the structure afforded by a private tutor; stronger students could pick up the same tips themselves from the prep books. He refused to memorize vocab, which, given his particular learning style would probably have been a waste of time anyway, and ended up >1400, which was more than adequate for even his reach schools (he got in ED).

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:12 pm: Edit

I agree that the whole endeavor is a money machine. But affording test prep books is not that hard, even for a student with very limited finances. You can buy them used on Half.com. You can buy them used from students who aren't planning to take the test again. And some school districts actually collect them from students who have completed the test and distribute them to others who can't afford to buy them.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:15 pm: Edit

"Now everyone preps, the test has been recentered, and ivy candidates have anxiety attacks over scores under 1500."

Boy, can I relate. My daughter was very disappointed with her initial (absolutely respectable) scores and was thrilled when she jumped over the magic number on her second try. As time progressed during the college process, my husband and I realized that our biggest job was to help our d keep her perspective and sense of humor..... and also not to pay too much attention to what anyone else was doing.

I chuckled at Thedad's first comment about being philosophically opposed to prep but signing his daughter up anyway. I guess that I am of that school. Almost everyone in my daughter's world preps and I could not let my feelings about the ridiculousness of all of this put her at a psychological disadvantage when she went in to take the test. We paid for private tutoring because she had been in an accident and after surgery could not write or take notes quickly for some months. If she had been healthy we would have checked out the group sessions before signing up with a private tutor. The one nice thing about private instruction was that it could be fine tuned to our daughter's needs....both academic and physical. It was expensive but when your kid is in a shoulder to wrist cast you have to make accommodations if you can.

IMHO, one on one prep would be more beneficial to those that are weaker in math. There were times that I felt it was pretty silly to pay for someone to help her with vocab.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Regarding timing for prep:

Some people do their most intense preparation before the PSAT (in the hope of upping their scores for National Merit consideration) and some do very little before the PSAT and use their results as a gauge of what they need to work on. FYI, my daughter's private tutor whipped out 10 Real SAT's at their first session.

By Cvillelion (Cvillelion) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Carolyn,

Excellent point about the "new" SAT's for the class of 2006. Makes me wonder how the colleges are going to deal with having the bar "reset". If the test adds Alg. II and Trig. content, as well as the highly subjective (my opinion) writing assessment, the 2006 scores will not be comparable to any previous classes.

I'd love to know what this will mean for the admissions process. The people who market the colleges will have quite a challenge too, as the average SAT scores for those accepted in 2006 will likely deviate from the historic averages.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Elleneast, it's kind of like an arms race...our area, too, has even kids of modest ambitions and from modest circumstances doing test prep. I appreciate TheMom for saving me from feeling overly hypocritical in that there are schools where the standardized test [and preparing for it] is much more a part of the routine...private schools that have other advantages to begin with.

Fwiw, while PR uses the "10 Real SATS" for "homework" in between sessions, the actual sessions were focused on strategy and test-taking technique. My D is not a "natural" test taker in that she's much more deliberate in her work and much more interested in making sure that she worked the problem the right way than in blitzing through and getting the right answers. The notion that PR teaches for some math problems--of plugging in an answer to the equation--is very alien to her...but her scores drop when she doesn't do it.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Additional note. Elleneast, I re-read your post and saw the bit about wasting time on vocab. I happen to agree that vocab is hard to bring up in a short period of time...the best prep is years and years of interesting and chewy reading. However, my daughter found coaching on how to attack the critical reading *for speed* to be very valuable.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:10 pm: Edit

While actual cost may not be the prohibitive factor in obtaining practice testbooks, a kid has to know about that resource to benefit from it. The unfortunate reality is that many kids from less advantaged socio-economic backgrounds don't even know they can prep for the test because that information is not part of what is given in any classroom, and is not part of their family's experience. Those of us who are a part of the more advantaged segment of the population know that we have to advocate for our kids, and that advocacy includes getting information, dealing with bureaucracies, and using declarative sentences. Often, I think it also means refusing to take "no" for an answer, an assertion that is very difficult for kids to make on their own. There is a significant power differential to overcome in addition to simple economics.

By Cvillelion (Cvillelion) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Carolyn,

I found some info regarding PSAT's on the college board site. In a nutshell, the 2004 PSAT will change in anticipation of the 2005 SAT change. Here's the link:

http://www.collegeboard.com/about/newsat/psat/index.html

That, of course, leaves taking the PSAT as a sophomore open to debate since the PSAT will change between 2003 and 2004. Naturally the college board still recommends taking it in 2003. No profit motive there I'm sure!

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Cvillelion,
Yes, I also wonder how the new test will affect admissions - and I agree that there may very well be a change in the historic averages for the tests - either up or down. In any case, books like Real SAT's (which my 7th grade son used a bit in preparing to take the SATs for the John Hopkins CYT this year) will probably be fairly useless unless they are updated immediately. I've decided to follow the saga of how the tests are changing carefully. The College Board site and the Princeton Review (www.review.com) site both contain periodic updates.

Carolyn

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

To Carolyn and Cvillelion:

I am afraid that you may read TOO much into the proposed changes. In the end, the differences in preparation will be subtle. This is not a revolution but a simple evolution.

Except for the new writing section, here is my analysis.

On the verbal side, despite the fact that the analogies will not appear in their well designated sections, do not be surprised if they DO show up in the critical reading sections, albeit in a disguised fashion. It is very easy for ETS to bury them and reword the questions as vocabulary. You still will need the same preparation and understanding of the analogies. ETS wont give up that easily on one of their favorite devious ploys!

On the math side, they are simply confirming a broadening of the material that had started to creep in. The material will still be 9th and 10th grade. Out of 60 questions, do not expect more than 4 or 5 covering the "new" material.

Please realize that the "material" is almost irrelevant and trivial. Almost everyone taking the SAT possesses the tools to do well by 8th to 9th grade. The test is not difficult because of the breadth of the material ... the difficulty comes from the time factor, the anxiety and the overall trickiness of the tests.

In other words, not much is changing. Focusing on strategies and getting comfortable with the settings is what matters!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Theasrhs, you've made one of the excellent arguments for affirmative action.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

I know. :-)

And as distinguished from "diversity." I'd love to see some honest affirmative action taking place during the college recruitment process.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:03 am: Edit

Theasrhs, I agree with Thedad and would add that in our hs, kids from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds are admitted to the very top schools with SATs in the 1200s-1300s. So...AA certainly does help level the playing field.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

Theasrhs~

Are you saying that some students are discriminated because they won't have access to the material of the College Board? Or even know about the test?

Unless I am mistaken, the tests are free for poorer students and the poor schools can request material from the College Board for distribution.

Most of the prepbooks are available at the local libraries and there are several free online services.

To do well on the SAT, you do not need anything more than the free material, some time and the willingness to make the effort. Without denying that the classes can be helpful, nobody NEEDS the expensive prep-classes. There are TONS of free help available.

If there are any disadvantages for the URM, they must pale compared to the unbelievable curve they will benefit from during the application process.

If someone knows how to apply to a college, it is obvious that he should know how to prepare for the admission process. Not knowing the rules is a poor excuse for lack of effort. People have to learn how to take responsibility and not expect the system to "take" care of them.

Lastly, I live in a city that is considered very poor. However, the poorest schools from the poorest districts have tools at their disposal that would wealthy private schools envious. So, where there is a will, there is a way.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:22 am: Edit

Xiggi, take a thermodynamics point of view: an occasional student-molecule might get past the threshhold resource level but even the above-average won't.

You can't even have the will to do something unless you know it exists, are led to believe it's important, and--quite often--have support in your environment that keeps you going.

Yes, an intensely focused individual may be able to achieve while risking daily violence for his lunch money or his shoes, keep studying when all his peers give him grief for "not being authentic" or "acting white," and be able to come up with a quarter of the resources and understanding of how the system works that kids with parents who *do* understand the system...but it's odds against.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 08:59 am: Edit

Thedad: valid points, but you err in limiting peer grief to minorities. If you're in a school or community that doesn't value academics (i.e. holds at least 2 athletic banquets, but no academic banquet; has a wide selection of seasonal sports, yet no honors or AP courses; or if the Athletic Boosters are the largest, most vocal group in your school,etc.) then the locals can and will harangue any student for "getting above their raising," "being too big for their britches", or being elitist or disloyal if they seek outside classes. Afterall, these students are making what they consider an unnecessary effort--and of course if it's not popular, it can't be right. They develop policies to limit opportunities to EC's, and fail to recognize academic accomplishments, purposely so.
Xiggi: it's only free if you have the correct forms to file in a timely manner. School ends in two weeks at our local and they haven't had the correct form at any time during this year or last. GC says they receive the waivers based upon the number who used them the previous year. He hasn't troubled himself to lay in a supply-- at least as far as we know, despite repeated requests--and I know we meet the criteria. Even relatively small fees make a major difference when you're just getting by. Kids in richer neighborhoods have generally better teachers, quantity and quality wise, and access to more programs. Our small, rural school doesn't have access to Upward Bound etc. which could make a major difference in being prepared for and getting admitted to college.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:10 am: Edit

Thedad: valid points, but you err in limiting peer grief to minorities. If you're in a school or community that doesn't value academics (i.e. holds at least 2 athletic banquets, but no academic banquet; has a wide selection of seasonal sports, yet no honors or AP courses; or if the Athletic Boosters are the largest, most vocal group in your school,etc.) then the locals can and will harangue any student for "getting above their raising," "being too big for their britches", or being elitist or disloyal if they seek outside classes. Afterall, these students are making what they consider an unnecessary effort--and of course if it's not popular, it can't be right. They develop policies to limit opportunities to EC's, and fail to recognize academic accomplishments, purposely so.
Xiggi: it's only free if you have the correct forms to file in a timely manner. School ends in two weeks at our local and they haven't had the correct form at any time during this year or last. GC says they receive the waivers based upon the number who used them the previous year. He hasn't troubled himself to lay in a supply-- at least as far as we know, despite repeated requests--and I know we meet the criteria. Even relatively small fees make a major difference when you're just getting by. Kids in richer neighborhoods have generally better teachers, quantity and quality wise, and access to more programs. Our small, rural school doesn't have access to Upward Bound etc. which could make a major difference in being prepared for and getting admitted to college.

By Quink (Quink) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:56 am: Edit

Very useful comments in these posts! I think the following steps are a reasonable strategy:

1) Have the child take practice tests, ideally offered at the school under regular test conditions.

2) If the scores are satisfactory (based on their college selection list), just encourage them to so some self-prep with practice books prior to the real tests.

3) If the scores are not satisfactory, do (2) and also consider tutoring or a perp course.

4) If the scores on the practice tests are high, consider scheduling tutoring or a prep course before the PSAT - potential dollar return is worth it, and high scores put another 'jewel in the crown' for admissions.

By Quink (Quink) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:05 am: Edit

Also, a question - does the PR review book contain the same test-taking tips that they teach in the course?

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:20 am: Edit

".... if the Athletic Boosters are the largest, most vocal group in your school...."

It sounds like a perfect description of our local high school--which is why we home schooled our girls K-12.

Around here, a few go on to state university, flunk out in the first semester, but then buy season football tickets for as long as they live... and consider themselves supporters of higher education.

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:59 am: Edit

"However, the poorest schools from the poorest districts have tools at their disposal that would wealthy private schools envious."
Ummm..If that is true, then your school district isn't as poor as you think. I've visited some schools that my cousins attend, and no one on this earth would be envious of anything in that school. How are you supposed to know about SAT prep if NOBODY takes the SATs? Everyday I thank God that my mom moved us out of there. I can't imagine what my life would be like if I had to grow up in that neighborhood.
TheDad made a good point. A lot of people who are in substandard school districts aren't aware of these opportunities. many more don't apply to college; how many stories have you read about students whose teachers contacted the schools on the behalf of the students because the kids didn't believe that "people like them" went to college? There is a social dynamic that these kids have to fight against. Their parents don't support them, their classmates taunt and fight them, and the teachers don't care.
I always had a problem with the way this SAT thing is set up. It's like, "This test will decide your future" and then "If you want to do well, buy our book!" then "If you want to do REALLY well, pay $1,000 and take this prep class". somehow I don't think that my free SAT prep pamphlet had the same effect...

By Batman (Batman) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:08 pm: Edit

I too dislike the SAT and the fact that some kids have better access to preparing for it than others. Like so many others, I considered the expensive tutors and SAT programs, but in the end I decided my daughter may need the money for tuition after she got into college. I bought a few books, helped her out with the problems I understood, and put her on a regular self study schedule at home. I timed her practice tests and became somewhat of a coach and cheerleader, giving as much encouragement as I could. Everyone at dinner improved their vocabulary as I quizzed her regularly. We also worked a lot with flaschcards. In fact, my youngest daughters started getting notes home from their teachers about how impressive thier vocabulary had become and noting superior writing skills for their ages. I enlisted a neighbor, a math major, to help out as well. Over a period of time she got her score up from 1180 to well above 1400. Overall, I probably only spent about $100 bucks on the books, but the man hours were fairly staggering for a family as busy as ours. In the end it was worth it I suppose. She got into all of the colleges to which she applied, a ton of scholarships, etc. But damn, am I glad that s**t is over!!!

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:41 pm: Edit

This college application stuff seems much more intense than when I did it like 6 years ago. I would probably have a heart attack if I was a high school kid these days. I went to a pretty decent high school and I didn't know what the SATs were until second semester 10th grade. My english teacher was like "We are going to practice this test because everyone applying to college takes it". I was under the impression that it was like a nationwide SOL test (va standardized tests). I certainly didn't view it as something that would keep me out of college. I didn't know about the SAT IIs until the last week in November (ok, I was a bit stressed that I had to take all 3 on the same day!) Still, I don't remember stressing that much. Maybe that is because I was fairly sure that being in-state SOME school in VA would take me. In any case, the teachers just didn't present the SATs to us that way. I am sure things are VERY different now.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:35 pm: Edit

The stress these days, the whole system, is nuts, unreasonable in terms of stress. However, until they change the system, it's what you gotta do.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Morgantruce: Do you live in our district??? The comment was so apropos for situation. Many aspire ONLY to go to Iowa State University, do indeed flunk out first semester, and then finish a two year degree at the Des Moines Area Community College (replacing their President with a new, nontoking model--gives a whole new meaning to higher education)-- if they bother to reregister at all. Most cheer the Cyclones fanatically, the balance the Hawkeyes, and as long as they know the win-loss records, consider themselves well-informed. ISU's high profile coach earns more than our governor, but not enough to keep him out of trouble, and IOWA has had such a string of major problems with athletes getting into trouble that it looks like it should be renamed as a "recruit a criminal" college. Unless you're majoring in Agriculture, Engineering, or Pre-law, and want to go to one or the state universities in Iowa, go to the University of Northern Iowa in Cedar Falls. It graduates the greatest percentage of students in four years, and manages to maintain a healthier balance of academics and athletics.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 11:49 am: Edit

I made my comments about the availability of test prep courses or material in the context of college applications. It is obvious that there are schools where almost nobody plans to go to college. That is a HUGE social problem but well beyond the scope of our discussion.

My point was that if a high school student is interested in attending college, and prepared to apply, he should not have that many problems in finding the right tools to prep himself.

The SAT is far from perfect but I do not believe that it can be considered as one of the culprit of the stagnating level of applications of URM in colleges. Lasly, there are LOTS of colleges that do not even require a SAT score.

Oh well, we wont change the world that fast.

Lastly, regarding the tools available to poor district...one can check the number of computers acquired in the last 4 years in the following districts (El PAso, Texas) El Paso, Ysleta, Socorro. El Paso is considered one of the poorest cities in the US and Texas. In Texas, there is a Robin Hood program whereby rich school districts are "robbed" from a portion of their budget and poor district receive the mana. Also, there are some very large Federal Grants for equipment purchases. I believe the program is called ERate. Here is a link:

http://www-904.ibm.com/services/sg/portfolios/ITS/its_s_cs_c_cuttingedge.html

Also, the lack of resources in public schools can usually be tracked to gross mismanagement and ooutright fraud. Here is an interesting read:

http://www.amedu.fm/RadioNews/Eratefraud.htm

But again, things wont change that easily.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Xiggi, none of the tools do any good unless the attitudinal base is there: "This is imporant" coupled with a moderate understanding of consequences, gains, and losses.

There's not only the idea of going to college but acquiring the notion that different colleges offer you vastly different qualitative experiences and that you don't have to be a snooty rich well-connected white person to get into some of the top schools (though it never hurts, does it?)

And once you understand that going to Cal State is different from going to UC is different from going to Colgate is different from going to Smith is different from going to Swarthmore is different from going to Yale, then it's a question of absorbing the differences of what it takes to get *in* to these various schools.

Socioeconomic niches tend to have a different level of awareness...not a lot of people in my circle rolled their eyes when my daughter was three years old and I moved from one office to another so that I could get a work-related permit to get her into an elementary school that fed a damned good middle school that fed the best local public high school. Now, a lot of those parents could pay for private school and some of them shrugged it off as being too early to worry about...but my daughter did *not* hit college-application age without a number of issues being positively addressed *way* before she would have been ready to address them herself...by which time it would have been far too late.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 04:02 pm: Edit

I agree completely with your presentation of the different levels of awareness.

It is obvious that someone needs to provoke a little spark in the mind of a student and get the wheels "rolling". For some kids, that is the role of the parents; for others, it falls on the shoulders of the educators. The built-up of positive assets at an early age is extremely important for young people.

However, I also believe that the student needs to assume some responsibility. I also believe that it would be a mistake to equalize the absence of success and motivation with the lack of equal opportunities.

As one of my EC activities, I teach a class of ESL to Mexican immigrants. Most of them have to make great efforts to attend the classes. Some of the students have to WALK a great distance and never miss a class. Then, I compare their attitude with some "friends of friends" who reside south of the border, are quite wealthy and do not speak nor understand English. They simply do not care. The second group has more opportunities but has no motivation, despite the fact that they cross the border on a daily basis.

I am only a Junior in HS and, as such, cannot pretend to know a whole lot about the subject of discrimination. I can only relate to what I witness.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Xiggi, a student can't shoulder something he/she doesn't know exists or doesn't know exists for them.
They have parent(s) that have zero familiarity with higher education and teachers/counselors that have written them off via low expectations for years.
You can run a race with 5-kilogram weights strapped to each leg but it's a heck of a lot easier if someone takes them off.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Okies, I agree.

Not everybody can find a mentor:

http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/findingforrester/

I guess, c'est la vie!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 10:05 pm: Edit

I agree with lots that thedad is saying on this. Yes of course there are many opportunities out there for kids who are disadvantaged in one way or another. And surely this almost has some advantages in college admissions lately. And there are free ways to get help for things like SATS, of course. But I agree with the dad that while surely those kids can be motivated and seek out all that is out there, it sure is a heck of a lot easier when there are supportive parents along to help. This is not only true of college admissions but of many of the issues that arise in raising kids and in schooling them all the way through their childhood. Involved parents can be helpful in this endeavor. As a former teacher, I can assure you that the kids whose parents were informed and involved and supportive, had a clear advantage in their education. It simply helps a real lot. A child can succeed without it but it is way harder to find the resources and to become informed without that support.

Just with the college search process alone, it sure helps to have parents who guide the child, take them on college visits, encourage them to look into this or that.....and if a child does not have this parent support system, it helps if they have another concerned adult in their lives to expose them to the opportunities out there and to encourage them in their pursuits and to advocate for them when their educational experiences need adjustments or accommodations made and so forth.

A child without such a support system just has a harder job knowing what it out there and how they can pursue it. They can succeed but may not have the resources (NOT talking money now) to aide in how to seek their dreams and potential.

You read stories of philanthropists offering disadvantaged kids full rides to college if they stay in school and many of those children have flourished with this encouragement and support system of someone who sees their potential and exposes them to the opportunities out there. A parent with little means and little, if any, education may not even expose a child to all the opportunities that they qualify for to make a better life....they may instead just assume or expect the child to lead a life without such an education as they have. Then again, of course many want their child to be the first one in the family to go but do not have the knowledge base of how to pursue it. That kind of guidance just may not be there for them. Yes, people need to seek out the help or arm themselves with knowledge but some just do not have a clue of what is possible or how to go about it. And I do not mean that in a negative way but it is all about their own experiences and backgrounds and expectations.

Anyway, there is a ton of help out there for kids of poorer backgrounds and surely for minorities and so forth. It is just easier all the way around, however, for young people who have parents who are involved deeply in their upbringing and future planning. I truly believe in parental involvement in the educational process both from my background as an educator and as a parent now too. At times, I feel sorry for those kids whose parents have not been involved in their education and have not advocated for them in school when necessary or even been active in volunteering in the classroom and extracurriculars.

And btw, thedad, we also moved one town over with regard to an educational decision for our child when she was still 3 yrs. old, that has had a big impact in her life.

Anyway, I do applaud the parents on this forum as clearly they are a bunch of caring parents who are helping guide their kids through this step of their growth and education. I wish all kids had such caring or capable adults in their lives! It can't hurt!
Susan