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When we go and buy a $20,000 Chevy, does the dealer re-set the price based upon some kind of EFC? Does he inquire about how many children we have in our family... and cut us a break?

When we buy a house for $175,000 does the seller let us have it for $30,000 because we have a low paying job? Does he set the price at $120,000 because we got a better paying job? Does he arrange house grants? When we tell him that our daughter is starting Yale in the fall, does he offer anything besides congratulations?

But when we go and pay towards a college education for our child, we somehow feel almost victimized when a college asks us to pay for even a small part of the bill.

When we are negotiating with a car dealer or a real estate agent, I don't think we bring up subjects like braces for our kid's teeth... or private tutoring... or having to help grandma. Yet these financial woes and a host of others get dragged out when discussing Junior's college expenses.

Why is that? Do we value a college education for our children? We know it's going to probably increase their lifetime earnings a bunch--that's a plus. So is the additional knowledge and culture. Perhaps we are spoiled by the notion of free public education (not very free when you pay your property taxes.)

We know that Chevy is going to be a sitting in a scrap yard in the not-too-distant future. We know we're going to have to mow circles around that house, and paint it as long as we own it--and we had to pay full ticket price for these.

Maybe the discount deals that we get for college educations are just not good enough. Perhaps we should all get a 100% discount on the cost of college.

By Kelly_Johnson (Kelly_Johnson) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:49 am: Edit

Dude, what is your deal? First of all, cars and houses are considered luxury items. In many states, you do not have pay taxes on food because it is something you need. I know this is going to sound weird, but it is becoming that way with a college education.

I know in the olden days you did not have to go to college to get a job, or even a well-paying job, but nowadays, you have need a BA to shelve books at the library or deliver the mail. Kids that do not go on to college can: be secretaries, deliver pizza, drive a taxi, and serve fat-soaked "food" through a window. That, in itself, says a lot about the value of a high school education and screams for reform, but that is another issue....

Colleges know that students can not afford to pay the bill, more often than not. When I was visiting one school, my mother asked how much it all cost, and the admissions lady hesitated and assured her that no one paid the listed amount. Why colleges hike up prices to the point where they do not expect anyone to pay them, I do not know. But, they do, and as long as they give enough aid to allow a kid to attend college, I think that is fair. Obviously, people that make more money should be expected to put more money into their child's education, (You seem like the wealthy, conservative snob type, and that is probably why you are so irrationally bitter) and, like it or not, there ARE special circumstances that hinder a person's ability to pay. Should the fact that their parents work as janitors keep a child from going to Harvard? If they are qualified, what is the problem? Should a kid be punished because his father died of a drug addiction or if a girl has a millionaire father that ran away to Bahrain with his secretary?

You can not compare cars to college. You can live without a car, but you can't live without a job, and at the rate we are going, you will even need a college degree to deliver pizza.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

Actually, some people *do* bring the cost of their kid's braces into real estate negotiations, etc.--or at least they try to. My standard response is a dismissive chop of the hand and "The market doesn't care."

The fact is that there are a number of fairly good low-cost educational options, at least by historical standards...but if you want fine, excellent, or outstanding choices, you're usually going to have to pay.

Come to think of it, our health care system isn't *that* far from the same paradigm. (Hey, buddy, can you paradigm?)

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 02:23 am: Edit

My daughter recieves a large tuition grant and subsdized loans for her education.
Apparently the college values her addition to the diversity of the student body enough to make it possible for her to attend the school.
Should we not have applied for aid?
Should the schools not try to have a diverse campus?

( Where the heck can you buy a house for $175K? )
and as for 100% deductions on the cost of college, i think that was covered in the West Wing

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 08:10 am: Edit

"You seem like the wealthy, conservative snob type..."

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Kelly, I sure hope you saved all the packaging that came with that crystal ball you bought last week at K-mart... maybe you can still get your money back!

By Dadster (Dadster) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 08:15 am: Edit

MT, I think there are a few factors at work that make middle-class people expect, or even demand, a break from colleges.

First, as KJ noted, the cost of attending college as far outstripped inflation, and many middle-class parents are no doubt unwilling to consider that the educational opportunities they had are now out of reach for their kids.

Second, there is an accurate perception that the cost of attending college is often a very nebulous and squishy amount. If some people are getting great deals, any reasonable parent would want a great deal too. To use an analogy: I have no expectation of being able to afford a Lamborghini. If I look out my window, though, and see that my less-successful neighbor has one, and that another neighbor just wheeled in a new Maserati, then I might expect that I can afford an ultra-expensive sports car, too.

Even US News furthers the perception that nobody pays much for college - it publishes its "best value" list that usually includes some of the most expensive colleges with sticker prices reduced by aid. In short, if it seems that nobody pays full price for college, most parents will reasonably expect generous aid for their own kids.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:38 am: Edit

What, you paid *retail*?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:41 am: Edit

EmeraldCity, you can buy a house for $175K out near (shudder) Palmdale. Not attractive to *me*, not being a creature who likes either the desert or long commutes but lots of people do it...for many years we made the pact that we'd rather rent in heaven than buy into hell. Mileage may vary.

By Wadad (Wadad) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:48 am: Edit

The right car analogy might be if Ford wanted to have a more diverse customer base, they raise the sticker price on the car and give discounts to people based on their income. So if you have an upper-middle class income you pay $38,000 for that Taurus, but if you have a lower income you might get that car for free.

But having a diverse customer base driving Tauruses (Tauri?) doesn't benefit me if I drive one, too. Colleges argue (with some merit) that having a diverse student body increases the value of the education they provide. Also, unlike Ford, they are non-profit corporations with the purpose of doing good, not making money.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:03 am: Edit

My complaint is most certainly NOT about families who get big financial aid grants. My complaint is also not about families who must pay the full or near-full tab for their child's college education... and least of all the middle class.

What I am poking fun at are the people--poor or rich or in between--who think that they in particular are paying too much!

The whole financial aid system is miraculously fair! As they say, "Only in America!"

The very folks who seem to have the most trouble seeing the fairness of the system are the ones who seem to have the most trouble with their living on their rung of the income ladder. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a new Porsche or used Pinto--regardless of what your neighbor is driving. But if you get one--and your income and assets do not fully support that decision--you are going to feel like your college financial aid package is lacking.

It seems almost like national sport to not behave like your income and assets would indicate you should. Everyone acts as if they are entitled to live higher on the hog than prudence would dictate. The bigger house, the better location, the nicer clothes, the fancier computer, the cosmetic braces, the better cut of meat, and even the softer toilet tissue---we want it all and we don't even mind getting into debt to do it. If you are a $10K (income) family living like a $12K family--or a $60K family living like a $75K family--or a $500K family living like a $750K family---it's all the same!

The funny part is: nearly every single one of us truly believes that we are living quite frugally---and are entitled to a better deal from the Financial Aid office! Is there anyone out there who is not willing to die defending the way he spends his money? I expect I will hear from you...

Please forgive me, but I have learned to step back and look at my own habits and attitudes... and I find them amusing as well. If this annoys you, please seriously consider this one last example:

You are living in a lifetime of grinding poverty on some other continent. You find a tattered magazine article that describes some American family that is eating three meals every day (as opposed to your ONE) and lives in a house or apartment with running water! Then you further read that this magical American family is complaining about the cost of the financial aid package that they are getting that allows their child to get a COLLEGE EDUCATION!

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Well, I might have been amused before, but now I'm getting fehrklempt. Go and discuss it amongst yourselves.

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:08 am: Edit

Just one comment....there is a difference, albeit not the one you are trying to make a point of, between a 10K living like 12K and a 500K living like a 750K. This in no way shape or form is the same. You are talking about apples and oranges with these two different socio-econimic classes. Really. And yes, I would know. Been there, done that.
The 500K would have a great deal of discretionary income, the 10K income family would most likely qualify for cash aid, medicare, food stamps and the free lunch program. I do not think discretionary income is in their vocabulary. They would not be choosing what cut of meat but what week or month they could afford some meat, if at all. So I do understand your frustration about entitlement, but I don't think you have to go to that other continent to find that grinding poverty.
And if one is willing to pay big bucks for a college education, I think that like other big-ticket purchases are often negotiated so would be the education. MSRP never. And yes, because this is America!
So, CA residents while still in high school can attend CC tuition free and can accumulate the maximum in order to transfer to a UC. Then upon graduation of h.s. matriculate to the UC after having saved two years tuition, while still residing at home. Add to that a possible transfer after your first summer and first fall and/or spring semester to a presitigious uni after that. Securing your residency requirement and a diploma from the pricey school with a minimum amount of money laid out. In conjunction any additional scholarships, grants could make this a much painless process. My oldest DD, now a senior (college) in the process of the last step, the transfer..has made this work. And used this to negotiate a much better aid deal but showing she was doing her best to make the amount the university grants were less for less time. And yes, it worked, the aid offices were more than happy to accomodate.

By Mike (Mike) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:20 am: Edit

It is a matter of market economics. You need to have a package that is good enough to attract the buyer. Morgages rates are based on demand and available money. Haven't noticed deals being offered?

Colleges are the same. The better the college the less the deal. Those with large endowments want to get bright diverse kids and are willing to discount the product. Less attractive schools offer lots of Merit Scholarships to attract kids. In additon the government offers goodies like tax incentives, work study and subsidized loans. Colleges are real life version of the US market economy.

Mike's Dad

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Reminds me of the C/W song I should write: "I like the Lexus, drive the Toyota."

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Beneath the surface of this discussion there resides a bit of class (warfare) if you will forgive the term.

The poor class is very busy with just getting the basics, one mis-step from becoming homeless. They are increasingly aware that the only way up is education and many are trying to get all they can.

The wealthy class is inclined to allow some of their wealth to help those less fortunate, and having accomplished that, wish to be left alone to enjoy their lives.

The middle class view themselves as squeezed from both ends. They have unending envy for all of the things the truly rich have, and are on a treadmill that cannot possibly provide those things quite fast enough to suit them. At the same time they are looking over their shoulder at the poorer class who are seen to have gained some benefit at their expense, The middles also will do nearly anything to avoid being mistaken for or falling in with the less fortunate.

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Given the choice, there is no doubt which class we would sign up for if the choice were be made tomorrow morning. From the tone of discussions however, it seems that many people seem to be confused about what their SECOND choice would be...

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I really don't see people divided so neatly.
I see class as more a measure of values not of buying power.

We make a decent living, but we have seen our purchasing power drop dramatically over the last 20 years. This does not mean that we spend time and energy trying to regain lost ground. I would rather spend time and energy enjoying life, not working to buy things that no one really needs.

I suggest reading Paul Fussell- class has nothing to do with money.

By Texas137 (Texas137) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:53 pm: Edit

I think there's an analogy to prices of airline tickets. No one likes to pay $800 for a full-price airline ticket, then sit next to someone who got a $99 "super-saver" deal. That's true even if you can "afford" the $800 and the other passenger would have stayed home without the $99 super-saver.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Although if you spent $800 on an airline ticket, I would assume that you could afford it otherwise you would have looked for more reasonable options.

I don't expect life to be fair

For example- my area recently voted on tax increases to support low income housing.
Great.
However one of the programs that is being supported is subsidizing the price of purchasing a home for buyers who make $80,000.
Do I want to subsidize homeowners who make more( a lot) than we do?
Not really, but there wasn't a program like that around when we bought our house.
It might be distracting to talk about all the ways life isn't fair, but I believe everything evens out eventually.
I would rather be who I am, than the person whose EFC is $32K, can afford to drive as a teen a $40K car, but complains that they don't recieve need based aid.
That is really sad. I feel sorry for them because they will not ever feel happy because they are too focused on what they don't have.

By Skeewb4287 (Skeewb4287) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 06:30 pm: Edit

To Katwkittens...

As a parent who has a child that took the route of the CC(in HS), then transfer to UC, then transfer to prestigious U, how has your experience been? I currently am a junior with about 66 transferable semester units of college credit from a CA CC and I was thinking about going that route. How does it affect financial aid, and research opportunities? Was your experience stressful? Any advice?

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:20 pm: Edit

For my DD it has worked wonderfully. The cap on transferable units is 70 semester and while at the CC completed the IGETC which limits the GE's required at the UC's and state schools. Since she matriculated directly from high school to undergrad she was still considered a freshman for purposes of the Cal grant A and B, Pell Grant and the SEOG and outside private scholarships. Her funds were additionally drawn out as that some of the UC's and state schools will allow you to enroll in grad school classes while still an undergrad and use those to your undergrad while double counting them for a masters. So what would have been year three and four are still such while accumulating grad school units. Its the same double counting used in high school towards your CC units for both high school and undergrad. Her expereince was much less stressful than my other kids are going to be. Her letters of rec for college and scholarships were her CC professors, some of them professors for the local 4 year that taught at the CC for extra cash. Looked great. She just stayed away from the schools that would not give her full credit for all the CC units she had earned and made sure she applied to schools that gave her the full value of her work and units. She does have a seperate gpa on her college transcript, gpa earned elsewhere and current college gpa. Not a big deal. Also use your desired major as decisive factor for choosing your school and if they have a grad program there as well. It also gave her some more freedom in choosing her upper division classes than others because all her lower division GEs and major course work was completed in addition to any other prerequisites. Just make sure all your classes transfer and satisfy the necessary requirement you thought they would when you took the class. The articulation dept. of the university are more than happy to meet with you in case of a misunderstanding and always hold onto your course catalog/course syllabi in case of that misunderstanding for a course description.
As far as research, she got an earlier start than others, since she did some for her CC profs while still in high school and they made additional contacts on her behalf to continue to do research when she arrived at the 4 yr institution as a "freshman". It was much, much cheaper for her to do this way, and opened up many more opportunities to her that might not have occurred if she had followed a more tradional progression of college matriculation.
Also the incentive shown by following this path and the ability to show success at the college level also helped at the financial aid office and with outside scholarships. She was considered to already have proven herself at some level so I am sure it helped. At least that was what she was told.

By Skeewb4287 (Skeewb4287) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Thanks a bunch for the pointers. Another question: Did your DD have a 4.0 in her college classes? I haven't done quite as well in my college classes as my high school classes; I have a 3.66 GPA in college classes. And yes, they're all (the 66 units) UC tranferable.