| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:23 am: Edit |
To follow this post, you may want to read a couple of past posts.
1. Oxford List G
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/69/18911.html
2. Oxford list H
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/69/18908.html
3. Xiggi's 8/12 Wordlist
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/69/25017.html
As you may know, I have spent some time trying to reconcile the validity of wordlists like Barron's, Kaplan's or the ones that are widely available on the web. The theory behind the wordllists is that they are helpful since they contain words that SHOULD appear on YOUR next test. However, the probability that this WILL happen might surprise some.
Just look at this example... Roll back the calendar to April 2002 and you are in the middle of your preparation for the upcoming May 2002 test. Based on common knowledge and the advice of CC posters, you spend about 20 hours memorizing 600 "very relevant" words from a "highly respected" source. For this exercise, let's play with the Oxford lists G and H that contain 630 words. Assuming that you learn 30 words a day, that would be an effort of 21 days. You decide how many hours that is We will also assume that you REMEMBER all words and KNOW all primary meanings.
Full of pride and newly acquired wisdom, you arrive at the test center. As you open the booklet, your heart beats a little faster than usually. You start the test and feel quite confident but you have some questions about difficult verbal questions, especially analogies.
Now, here are the facts:
The Xiggi 8/12 wordlist contains EVERY word that appeared on the May 2002 test. Yes, that is the list that seemed simplistic. Could you guess how many words were borrowed from the Oxford list?
No need to guess, here are ALL of them:
conciliate; disingenuous; disparity
ignominy; jocular; lackadaisical
obsequious;pragmatic; rectitude
Yes, that is a whopping 9 of 630 or 1.43%. This finding would be worse if I would have counted the words that were NEEEDED to arrive at the correct answer. Most of the 9 words were TOTALLY trivial when put in context - or trivial for anyone with a decent vocabulary.
Now, I invite everyone to check the 8/12 list against Barron's and Kaplan's lists. You will see that the results are quite similar. And again, there is only one indisputable fact and that is that the disclosed test is a REAL test and that words are the exact words that were tested. You're most welcome to read the full test and check if my list was accurate
The numbers are only highlighting the incredible negative odds of words appearing on the real tests. There is another fact that is mostly hidden and it has to do with the primary and secondary meanings of words. Even if you would memorize all 3500 words, you probably will end up being "tricked" by ETS and its love for the obscure meanings of words. As an example, do you know how ETS used the following words: RANK, AIR, EXPOSE? Simple words but not exactly what you would have expected.
So, do you still think that wordlists are a necessary evil?
| By Serene (Serene) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:35 am: Edit |
Of course I don't think wordlists are a necessary evil. I think wordlists are a necessary good. It saves time since we don't need to go to our dictionaries. =)
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:42 am: Edit |
Serene, they are a necessary good for ... what purpose?
As far as I am concerned, the wordlists are worthless for the SAT test. I believe that the wordlists are VERY good for general knowledge but that is NOT the issue ar stake.
Just grab ANY test from 2001 to this date and plug the wordlist of Barron's. You'll be shocked on how few words will show up and then you'll have to weigh the relative importance of the words.
What was your test date, and I'll do it for you
| By Serene (Serene) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:48 am: Edit |
I am almost sure all the hard words I had on SAT I, April 2001 (I think. Yeah. I think... =)) were on Kaplan wordlist, 'cuz I kept going "wow, I saw that on the Kaplan, wow, here's another one!"
except "loom", I interpreted it as a verb and that's how I missed that one problem. =)
anyway that's not the most important thing. I love it when I can almost see my vocabulary expanding... =)
| By Billiam2 (Billiam2) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit |
i thought you had your own word list xiggi? Whats the web site for that?
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:54 am: Edit |
Bill~
Web site?
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:55 am: Edit |
Serene, April 2001 is not disclosed. 
anyway that's not the most important thing. I love it when I can almost see my vocabulary expanding... =)
Me too. I play with lists and dictionaries all the time. But with 1,000,000 words, it is an impossible task to master a high percentages. For that reason, you end up picking specialized dictionaries. Examples of those are Scrabble or crosswords dictionaries. They are helpful but wont do much for mastering the SAT.
| By Billiam2 (Billiam2) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:56 am: Edit |
i thought there was a website w/ a program that had ur word list. maybe im mistaken.
im looking for some wordlist that i can put on my calculator, anyone have a good program?
| By Serene (Serene) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:01 am: Edit |
my biggest sadness is so far most of my vocab is still passive.. ie, can't use them but can recognize them *_*
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:04 am: Edit |
I see! No, I do not have a website. I dump the various lists in Excel/Word and use the "data" features to pick up redundancies. I find it extremely fast and straightforward.
There are a few lists floating around CC that I compiled from the 2nd Edition of the 10 Real SATs. I also compiled lists using the Word of the Day website and the list available at Sparknotes.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:07 am: Edit |
my biggest sadness is so far most of my vocab is still passive.. ie, can't use them but can recognize them *_*
And when you use them, you get all kind of reactions ... not always positive.
| By Billiam2 (Billiam2) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:09 am: Edit |
well when you memorize words you also dont know when is an appropriate time to use them. And sometimes i just dont think that there is ever a reason that you would say 'tantamount' instead of 'same' (for example), unless if you're really trying to impress someone.
| By Serene (Serene) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:12 am: Edit |
true. my frustration is tantamount to my disappointment! =O
hmm... i think tantamount is more like... talking about a "quantity"... whereas same is more like "nature".
hate these minute minute differences... but they're what make some people great writers and us the mediocre.
i thought vocab exercises in school were kind of effective... even though they're a bit boring =P
| By Amylase (Amylase) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:12 am: Edit |
Hi Xiggi,
Welcome back to this board!
I don't know what make you to have such strong repugnace toward wordlists. But here is my real experence.
I took a SAT last december and my verbal is 600. I only memerized a concise version of 800 words back then.
Now I have memerized complete Barron's 3500 wordlist and my verbal went up to 660.
Last week, i started reading like crazy, today my SAT verbal is 710.
These are all true facts.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:26 am: Edit |
Amylase~
You are building blocks of knowledge. Nothing is ever black or white. I've said many times that it all depends on one's background.
However, in preparing for the SAT, you have to make choices, especially if you do not have an unlimited amount of time or desire. And it is with THAT context in mind that I give so little value to "studying" wordlists.
Take the 2002 May test tomorrow and check your result. I am betting that you'll do really well on it
| By Parsifal (Parsifal) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:17 am: Edit |
One of the tests had the word conflate in it. I looked in both Gruber's and Barron's for the word. It wasn't there Maybe some of it's just luck
| By Logic447 (Logic447) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:35 am: Edit |
Xiggi- You are failing to realize that word lists from stuff like the Princeton Review and Kaplan are derived through how many times it has been repeated which determines the likelyhood of seeing those words again. Your list of all the words from the May test from 10 Real SATs may not reflect that. Those words may have never appeared after that test, and if they did it is possible that it didn't appear too often.
I know several people who have benefited from word lists, so I don't think it is a waste at time at all. Sure reasoning is important, but that's kind of common sense. Even if you knew the definition to all the words you would still need reasoning skills to make an analogy bridge.
This doesn't mean that SAT lists are irrelevant. Again, I know too many people who have memorized words and done much better on the test to say that word lists are not useful.
Many people with good reasoning abilities will still miss a few questions because when they see a word like Archsislisicoypican (I'm exaggerating of course) the chance they get it wrong is still very high.
When I last took an SAT, I came home and looked up every unfamiliar word I could remember. I recall seeing most of them in the Barrons book.
PS- As I've said in the past as someone who has worked through several of these books, I do not consider those Oxford books to be very good.
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit |
Xiggi: you have to understand, you come from an American family, particularly one in which a parent went to an Ivy league school. A lot of the words, you can simply pick up by talking to your parents. The situation is, however, different for a lot of us here on collegeconfidential. Sometimes the only way we can know a particular word is through memorizing wordlists.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:17 am: Edit |
Xiggi- You are failing to realize that word lists from stuff like the Princeton Review and Kaplan are derived through how many times it has been repeated which determines the likelyhood of seeing those words again. Your list of all the words from the May test from 10 Real SATs may not reflect that. Those words may have never appeared after that test, and if they did it is possible that it didn't appear too often.
Logic, you approach the problem backwards.
Imagine you have a test on basic arithmetic and you spend your time studying 6 different books ranging from algebra to advanced calculus. It is undeniable that you would gain knowledge and that it will help you in college. However, would it be relevant to basic arithmetic? Nope. I believe that you would be MUCH prepared by reading a shorter refresher course on arithmetic that would be filled with SIMPLE strategies.
My list of the May 2002 contained ALL the words on THE test and it is HIGHLY relevant to compare with the existing lists. Again, the May 2002 is real and the wordlists are synthetic. So we need to use the REAL tests as the comparison BASIS and not the opposite.
How would you like to read an index of 3500 words for a particular book and then realize that only 9 words ever appear in the book?
I DO like wordlists for general uses but that is not the issue. One needs to evaluate IF the wordlists are a HELPING tool and SAVE time.
I should also point out that a comparison between A wordlist and TEN tests is a flawed exercise because of the sheer number of tests. Since the words are ALMOST never repeated, you are increasing your sample by 900%. Despite that increase, the results are still DISMAL and do NOT support the effectiveness of wordlists.
I would be VERY happy to read an analysis from somemone supporting the opposite point of view. At it is, you are better off buying a bag of carrots before the test. It will help your eyesight and help you read the questions correctly. Or is that a myth too?
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:31 am: Edit |
"How would you like to read an index of 3500 words for a particular book and then realize that only 9 words ever appear in the book?"
Xiggi: You are quite right about this. I still think that regardless of how many words from the list appear on the test, it is still beneficial to know more words.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit |
Xiggi: you have to understand, you come from an American family, particularly one in which a parent went to an Ivy league school. A lot of the words, you can simply pick up by talking to your parents. The situation is, however, different for a lot of us here on collegeconfidential. Sometimes the only way we can know a particular word is through memorizing wordlists.
Zerg, I agree 100% with your statement. I understand that Amylase cannot be compared with Joe Blogg. The wordlists are NOT bad for general uses. It is the specific use for the SAT-1 that is in doubt. I do not deny -for a second- that you are better off after reading the Barron's 3500 words. If you study the 3500 words, it would be even better.
However, is it worth slaving over 3500 words, if 1% of the words might show up? And 1% is 35 words!
| By Pookdogg (Pookdogg) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:42 am: Edit |
Hey, not to toot my own horn here, but I got an 800 on verbal without using word lists. While I'm certain that memorizing words has its benefits, I find that there are other methods to do well. In the test that I took, there were probably five or six words I didn't know. Unless you memorize a dictionary, it's bound to happen. What word lists don't help you out with is how to deal with situations like this. I think that one should practice extrapolating the meaning of a word, or trying to deduce the meaning of a word, or even just using Kaplan's word charge method (mal- = negative, bene- = positive, etc). This is a more effective use of time, and it uses up less of your brain. If you try to memorize 3500 words, its going to take up a lot of brain power.
800 verbal with no word list, and I still have time to play golf and pick up girls 
. You just have to know the method.
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit |
Xiggi: So I guess we can come to a concensus on this. Memorize the 3500 word list if you have time, if not, memorize a shorter, more "potent" wordlist.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit |
As much as it is possible to get an 800 without using a word list and solely based off of reasoning skills, it is in my opinion, gambling. The prudent test taker considers everything (including developing sound reasoning skills) that could possibly help himself in becoming better prepared for the test. It may be somewhat inefficient overpreparation, but that extra mile never hurts.
| By Pookdogg (Pookdogg) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:13 pm: Edit |
Fairy, while your opinion is quite well-founded, I would object to your opinion that no word lists is gambling. On the contrary, I think that practicing only with word lists is more of a gamble. After all, you're gambling on which words will actually be on the test. By deducing the general meaning of words, you take the randomness of vocabulary words out of the equation. I'm not saying that word lists are bad: it's overemphasizing the importance of word lists that I'm talking about.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:15 pm: Edit |
I'm not saying to only use word lists, which is also a gamble. Walking in with no reasoning skills or test-taking strategies is a surefire way to fail! What I'm saying is, consider everything that could possibly help with test preparation, including as you said, practicing extrapolation of meaning and learning prefixes/suffixes. The neglecting of either aspect of test preparation, memorization or reasoning, is gambling.
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:20 pm: Edit |
I want your verbal score PookDog. Any advice on CR? Like when you're reading the passages what is your thought process like? Do you totally forget you have to answer questions and just read it like a magazine? Also do you read a lot, and are magazines better prep than novels? I finish the sentence completions and analogies in 8-9 minutes, this leaves me quite a bit of time for cr. However, I always miss about 6 out of the 40. Fortunately, I don't miss any analogies or sent completions.
| By Pookdogg (Pookdogg) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:23 pm: Edit |
Fairy, I can see from your profile that you got all 800s on your SAT IIs. I know better than to argue with someone of that ilk, so I will let it go. I just hope that nobody looks at these forums and frantically begins memorizing word lists or a dictionary. It's not as crucial as some would believe.
| By Aoe2guy (Aoe2guy) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:41 pm: Edit |
Guys, there is an extremely easy way to test which is more important: reasoning or memorization of vocabulary. While both are important to some degree, someone who has no reasoning skills and a very high vocb will do horrible; someone who has excellent reasoning skills and a poor vocb will do better. Although the chances of finding these odd extremeties in the same person is quite slim, it shows that reasoning is prevalent over memorization. Secondly, you are guaranteed that your all of you r reasoning skills will be tested whereas you are unsure of which vocabulary words will actually appear on the exam. Thirdly, memory is finite. There is always some fixed quantity of words that you will be able to store and apply within your brain's memory banks - proved theoretically and factually. It is inherently foolish to make something so finite the bastion of your study plan. On the other hand, reasoning abilities can be stretched and disfigured into all different kinds of forms, leading to infinite use. Clearly, you can see that this is a much more dependable source and more important than memorization skills.
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:49 pm: Edit |
I agree with aoe2guy (great game). I didn't know a lot of words when I took the SAT my sophomore year. However, through poe (reasoning) i was able to ace the anologies and sent completions. Now cr on the other hand got me. I missed 6 out of 40. Anyone have advice on what your though process should be. I know you have to pretend to like the passages for better retention. Any other tips.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:52 pm: Edit |
Aoe2guy. You are absolutely correct, but you don't seem to follow the 100% rock solid test-taker philosophy, which is okay! Reasoning skills, will get you far, say a 750, or as in Pookdogg's case, an 800, but who is to say Pookdogg doesn't read frequently and already has a rich vocabulary just from everyday experience? As Zerg pointed out, some people on this forum don't even speak English in their own homes, which results in a much lower vocabulary than someone who is constantly exposed to English. Maybe you have found that wordlists don't really help you--but that may be because you already have a very strong vocabulary! In addition, reasoning skills are much more abstract and difficult to study effectively than a wordlist, which is concrete; some people have innately good reasoning skills! This is why major test-prep books give wordlists: how exactly does one study "reasoning skills"? You can certainly learn shortcuts and a few test-taking strategies and tricks, but the core is still knowing the material that is being tested. I tried a practice SAT in 7th grade. I failed, not knowing any of the vocabulary on the harder problems! From personal experience, I don't believe that you should downsize the importance of a large vocabulary! As tootall said, s/he aces the analogies and sentence completions using POE, one of my favorite reasoning strategies. But how much better to just be able to answer the question directly, especially when POE can't eliminate 4 out of the 5 choices? I completely see the point of view of those who dislike wordlists, but this is not following the 100% rock solid preparation philosophy.
| By Aoe2guy (Aoe2guy) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:53 pm: Edit |
Tootall: yea it is a great game haha. When i do CR, i try to underline things that are uniquely important - contrasts, words that i think they might ask me to define, phrases, someone else's opinion on the topic, etc. The big problem when answering the questions is that one needs to be able to have a very discriminative thinking method- that is, ruling out answer choices with minimal evidence and answer choices that are correct but don't answer the question. Generally, i read the passage first and then do the questions. A long term investment for CR questions is actively reading interesting, challenging novels and newspaper articles that spark your interest. Not only will this increase your reading speed and the comprehension, but you may also find some very interesting vocabulary words in context- my favorite way of learning vocb (reading).
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit |
Thanks, that's all I needed. Time to go study. Goodluck with your sophomore year and SAT's.
| By Aoe2guy (Aoe2guy) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit |
thanks...how did you know i was a sophomore??? did u read some of my other posts? just curious
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit |
yeah i did.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:29 pm: Edit |
Some more food for thought ... check the following analogies:
So there are no surprises, they all come from the October 2002 test. The comparison with the Oxford list yielded ONE word, and that was intransigent. Yeppers, one word out of 630!
PEACH : FRUIT
cow : milk
orange : pee
apple : core
vegetable : garden
wheat : grain
MUSICIAN : SYMPHONY :
sculptor : studio
writer : agent
dancer : ballet
painter : subject:
vocalist : stage
FLASK : CONTAINER :
microscope : lens:
bandage : wound:
slide : specimen
liquid : bottle
scalpel : knife
ELONGATE : LENGTH :
estimate : number
steer : direction
amplify : volume
minimize : size
measure : weight
DEVOUR : INGEST
breathe : inhale
gulp : drink
touch : tickle
savor : chew
screech : utter
FARCE : COMICAL :
caricature : political
sequel : initial
parody : somber
scenario : theatrical
thriller : suspenseful
PLAYWRIGHT : DRAMA :
stenographer : transcript
actor : comedy
novelist : fiction
biographer : lifetime
celebrity : autograph
STOWAWAY : FARE
thief : money
employee : salary
spectator : admission
member : dues
squatter : rent
MAZE : LABYRINTHINE :
highway : congested
gymnasium : athletic
ruin : excavated
skyscraper : towering
subway : elevated
ANNEX : BUILDING :
postcript : letter
episode : series
homestretch : race
epilogue : afterthought
itinerary : voyage
PITTANCE : ALLOWANCE :
deduction : salary
dollop : dispenser
scarcity : demand
smidgen : portion
deficit : budget
TIRADE : DENOUNCE :
lecture : instruct
insult : apologize
epitaph : inscribe
homage : dishonor
demonstration : boycott
INDEFATIGABLE : TIRE :
infatuated : love
partisan : indoctrinate
empathetic : console
intransigent : compromise
meddlesome : pay
HEARING AID : EARS :
toothbrush : teeth
shampoo : hair
glasses : eyes
scissors : nails
shoes : feet
VERDICT : DECISION
proclamation : announcement
denunciation : transgression
debate : topic
proof : allegation
judgment : evidence
SURVEYOR : BOUNDARIES
censor : literature
geologist : fossils
felon : legality
appraiser : value
interrogator : questions
DESERTER : ARMY :
recruit : project
graduate : school
informant : report
dropout : society
turncoat : enemy
PAGEANTRY : SPECTACULAR :
revelry : gloomy
chivalry : gallant
impunity : harmful
equanimity : stressful
artistry : consummate
LISTLESS : VIGOR :
ruthless : cruelty
breathless : anticipation
dispirited : failure
disinterested : bias
disinclined : aversion
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit |
Xiggi. When I get time I will also type up the E and the F of the series. They would likely yield more matches, because G and H are almost all relevant only to the harder questions of the SAT test.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:49 pm: Edit |
Xiggi: So I guess we can come to a concensus on this. Memorize the 3500 word list if you have time, if not, memorize a shorter, more "potent" wordlist.
Not quite, Zerg.
1. If you have time to spare, score in the 750 range on practices and aim at that elusive 800 score, READING the list would be helpful.
2. What would a shorter and more potent list be? Look at the Oxford list ... 9 words -and several without relevance- on the May 2002 and only one on the October 2002.
FYI, my sister who is 14 just took the analogies that I listed above. She aced without breaking a sweat. Yet, she does not know 50% of the words on the Oxford list. Is that a paradox? No, she aced the analogies because in 8th grade, they spent a great amount of time on analogies and on developing STRONG bridges and ELIMINATING erroneous answers. She may NOT know 3 out of the 12 words but she still has a 90% chance of solving the problem. Why? Her strategies are perfectly honed.
However, she WILL struggle on the CR because of her lack of experience in Critical Reading.
Do you see a pattern? It has VERY LITTLE to do with knowing many complicated words. It has EVERYTHING to do with recognizing the relations among different words.
Lastly, have you ever thought how devastating it would be for foreign students if ETS incorporated more "american" slang. Joe Blogg would see a big increase!
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:58 pm: Edit |
Yet Xiggi, it is most unfair to compare an entire real SAT's words to a wordlist, which is supposed to develop your vocabulary in words you DON'T know. Considering that most of the words in the beginning to middle of a verbal section and even some at the end are everyday words that any toddler would know (toothbrush), you can't compare that with a wordlist which teaches words that you don't know and could possibly appear on the test. A wordlist is to help with the questions that do have one of two hard words, and it is, although slim, a minute possibility that POE or a strong bridge won't help, and that could prevent someone from getting an 800. I'm just saying, if you don't use all the methods that are available to you to practice, you are not following the 100% rock solid philosophy. Not that an 800 isn't achievable without a wordlist, but it's not as sure. A wordlist is not supposed to include the words that everyone knows (again, toothbrush as an example). Ironically, though the SAT I is called the "Reasoning" test, the analogies and sentence completions towards the end don't test reasoning anymore, they test vocabulary, and this is where the wordlists come in handy.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit |
Xiggi. When I get time I will also type up the E and the F of the series. They would likely yield more matches, because G and H are almost all relevant only to the harder questions of the SAT test.
The lower vocabulary will yield more matches but then the list would be extremely common.
G and H are simply NOT relevant to the SAT. I could go through the 25+ tests that I have and never find any relevance. Heck, they may not even show on the GRE
The difficulty of the SAT does not stem from the use of a a difficult set of words but rather from a few arcanes usages, especially when flipping verbs and nouns. Think about the words:
AIR - to express your feelings
LOW - the sound a cow makes
SOUND - to measure the depth
TABLE - to delay
RANK - foul smell (like for a cigar)
Those are horrendous words for an average test taker but a walk in the park for a crossword fan.
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:02 pm: Edit |
Xiggi: Memorizing the wordlist has benefits outside of the SAT analogies. Yes, you can sometimes infer the meaning of a word from your reading, however, that's not always the case. Also you might very well infer the wrong meaning due to a fallacy.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit |
For example, how much easier for this question:
PAGEANTRY : SPECTACULAR :
revelry : gloomy
chivalry : gallant
impunity : harmful
equanimity : stressful
artistry : consummate
to be:
GLAMOUR : SPECTACULAR :
merrymaking : gloomy
gentlemanliness : gallant
freedom : harmful
self-control : stressful
artistry : perfect
How easy it is to see that the answer is B? The same bridge, with words with similar or the exact same meaning, and tests reasoning. So if it was truly only a test of reasoning, that is what all questions would look like! This is where vocabulary comes in to help. Notice on harder questions, it's not the bridge that becomes harder: the relationship between the words are just as easy to spot, it's the vocabulary that becomes harder!
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:13 pm: Edit |
Wow, some of these were tough.
1. PEACH : FRUIT wheat : grain
2.MUSICIAN : SYMPHONY : dancer : ballet
3.FLASK : CONTAINER scalpel : knife
4.ELONGATE : LENGTH amplify : volume
5.DEVOUR : INGEST breathe : inhale
6.FARCE : COMICAL :thriller : suspenseful
7.PLAYWRIGHT : DRAMA : stenographer : transcript
8.STOWAWAY : FARE squatter : rent
9.MAZE : LABYRINTHINE :skyscraper : towering
10.ANNEX : BUILDING : postcript : letter
11.PITTANCE : ALLOWANCE : smidgen : portion
12.TIRADE : DENOUNCE : lecture : instruct
13.INDEFATIGABLE : TIRE : intransigent : compromise
14.HEARING AID : EARS glasses : eyes
15.VERDICT : DECISION proclamation : announcement
16.SURVEYOR : BOUNDARIES appraiser : value
17.DESERTER : ARMY turncoat : enemy
18.PAGEANTRY : SPECTACULAR : chivalry : gallant
19.LISTLESS : VIGOR disinterested : bias
a couple stumped me, stowaway and one other that i forgot. Tell me if i'm correct. I haven't really done these for a long time. I believe that your sister did well, but some of the words even with a good bridge, did require a knowledge of the answer choices.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:16 pm: Edit |
Fairy~
I understand that it would be ridiculous to add toothbrush to a SAT list. But that is exactly why SAT list are of VERY limited use. ETS/TCB are not testing the depth of your vocabulary; they are testing your ability to interpret KNOWN words and use them in context.
Allow me to make one analogy. If ETS announced that they will add ONE CALCULUS question to the October 2003, what would you do if you are a TYPICAL 11th grader? Review all your Pre-Cal notes, go out and buy 2 or 3 Calculus books and do the 3000 Schaums problems? Would you worry to death about Heron and L'Homme?
Wouldn't that be silly? I would simply wait and see and fully knowing that one question is worth 10 or 20 points, I would not even open a book. I would prefer to make sure I cover my 780 than worry about the 800.
The problem with the vocabulary is that there are 1,000,000 words to play with and millions of secondary meanings. You could put the hundreds of ETS tests in a computer and still fail to find any great relevance. Go ahead and read 20-30 tests and count the words that are shockingly difficult. Then check your pre-preparation answers and see WHY you made the mistake. I know that in my case, none were due because of not knowing the words.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:19 pm: Edit |
Xiggi: Memorizing the wordlist has benefits outside of the SAT analogies.
Absolutely but so is reading the whole Webster and you have to apply the Laws of Diminishing Returns
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:21 pm: Edit |
Lol i missed toothrbush, i went for use. Hearing Aid is put in your ear, and toothbrush is put in your mouth. I got it right the first time, but i second guessed myself lol. How were my other answers, i need to beging practicing again since I'm goint to retake in November.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit |
Fairy~
One last thought on the subject of analogies.
Did you notice that, when a "difficult" analogy surfaces on this board, it remains difficult despite the fact that we all have dictionaries and google at our diposal? Read the "post" tests threads and you'll see what I mean
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit |
Xiggi: I personally consider the 3500 word list to be within the acceptable limits of the Law of diminishing returns.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit |
1. PEACH : FRUIT wheat : grain
2.MUSICIAN : SYMPHONY : dancer : ballet
3.FLASK : CONTAINER scalpel : knife
4.ELONGATE : LENGTH amplify : volume
5.DEVOUR : INGEST breathe : inhale ========== NO
6.FARCE : COMICAL :thriller : suspenseful
7.PLAYWRIGHT : DRAMA : stenographer : transcript ========= NO
8.STOWAWAY : FARE squatter : rent
9.MAZE : LABYRINTHINE :skyscraper : towering
10.ANNEX : BUILDING : postcript : letter
11.PITTANCE : ALLOWANCE : smidgen : portion
12.TIRADE : DENOUNCE : lecture : instruct
13.INDEFATIGABLE : TIRE : intransigent : compromise =========== NO
14.HEARING AID : EARS glasses : eyes
15.VERDICT : DECISION proclamation : announcement
16.SURVEYOR : BOUNDARIES appraiser : value
17.DESERTER : ARMY turncoat : enemy ======== NO
18.PAGEANTRY : SPECTACULAR : chivalry : gallant
19.LISTLESS : VIGOR disinterested : bias
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:38 pm: Edit |
Notice on harder questions, it's not the bridge that becomes harder: the relationship between the words are just as easy to spot, it's the vocabulary that becomes harder!
Do you have an example from a disclosed ETS test that would support that position?
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:41 pm: Edit |
The example i just mentioned.
PAGEANTRY : SPECTACULAR :
revelry : gloomy
chivalry : gallant
impunity : harmful
equanimity : stressful
artistry : consummate
to be:
GLAMOUR : SPECTACULAR :
merrymaking : gloomy
gentlemanliness : gallant
freedom : harmful
self-control : stressful
artistry : perfect
It's easily seen from the second one that the answer is B, but not easily seen in the 1st one due to the difficult vocabulary words. Here there is an easy to spot bridge in the first "hard" question, IF you know the meanings of the words. While you are correct in saying that some of the harder analogies that are posted on this board are due to a difficult bridge, on the SAT the harder questions are almost always hard not because of a difficult bridge but because of difficult vocabulary, so ETS is being hypocritical about testing "reasoning" after all. Now after all, if it only tested reasoning, there would be an overabundance of 800s.
| By Nutmag345 (Nutmag345) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:47 pm: Edit |
INDEFATIGABLE : TIRE : intransigent : compromise =========== NO
Xiggi, can you explain why this analogy is not correctly done? It seems right to me, but I may be missing something.
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit |
yeah something indefatigable can't tire, and something intransignent can't compromise?
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:52 pm: Edit |
Sounds right to me
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit |
Man am i stupid. devour: ingest is gulp drink
playright: drama is novelist:fiction
deserter:Army dropout society i think
| By Nutmag345 (Nutmag345) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:59 pm: Edit |
Isn't Playright:Drama::biographer:lifetime?
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:59 pm: Edit |
Nutmag: the only way that the analogy is wrong is that Indefatigable= can't be tired and intransigent= unwilling to compromise. so intransigent isn't "can't compromise" but rather "unwilling to compromise"
Don't know if that's correct...
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:02 pm: Edit |
Isn't Playwright:Drama::biographer:lifetime?
Playwrights write dramas, biographers write lifetimes? I think biographies would be more apt... but
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:03 pm: Edit |
Final post on wordlists: basically, there are two schools of thought here. The 100% rock solid philosophy and the 95% rock solid philosophy saving countless hours of time. Each has its benefits: take your pick.
| By Nutmag345 (Nutmag345) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:06 pm: Edit |
I think it is Biographer:Lifetime because novelists can write both fiction and nonfiction right? So, there is no real bridge between novelist and fiction.
A lot of times on these analogies, it is hard to find a bridge that works perfectly, so you have to just go with the best choice.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:07 pm: Edit |
A playwright writes drama for entertainment. A novelist writes fiction for entertainment. A stenographer writes transcripts though not for entertainment. And a lifetime can't be written =) Nutmag: I don't think novels can be non-fiction, but I dunno
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:08 pm: Edit |
Hey Xiggi can you tell us if we're right. I need to practice building bridges. I now see that building bridges in very important. However, in some cases building a bridge won't be enough. I'm disappointed in 15/19. Oh well, I still have plenty of time to improve. This was a good thread, how about cr. How do you suggest attacking those, since you got a 760 verbal.
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:12 pm: Edit |
Nutmeg:
Def of Novel-A fictional prose narrative of considerable length, typically having a plot that is unfolded by the actions, speech, and thoughts of the characters.
| By Zerg_Vvins (Zerg_Vvins) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit |
Yes how do you attack CR?
I did well in both fill in the blanks and analogies, but missed 9 on CR!!! I need help on CR. Can't go to college with weak CR comprehension.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:20 pm: Edit |
Pretend to be interested in the helluva boring passages. And do many many practice tests. Some people have suggested underlining keywords, main ideas, and other possibly effective strategies, which you should try.
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:01 pm: Edit |
Final post on wordlists: basically, there are two schools of thought here. The 100% rock solid philosophy and the 95% rock solid philosophy saving countless hours of time. Each has its benefits: take your pick.
That could NOT be more incorrect if the 100% includes reading the wordlists. I have no idea why it is hard to admit that the wordlists do not add to the success ratio, unless you are happy with 95% to 95.001%.
The countless hours of time should be devoted to practicing, practicing and practicing. That is where you get the extra 5%.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:02 pm: Edit |
And the practicing helps you learn more vocabulary, which in turn is a wordlist, albeit hidden inside the practice tests =) Did you see my other post on why the SAT I "Reasoning" test isn't always testing "reasoning" and why it can't? A true "reasoning" test with hard questions has extremely vague bridges that you have to reason out with basic vocabulary words--and not with the arcane usage of a common word, the common usage of a common word =)
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:04 pm: Edit |
5.DEVOUR : INGEST breathe : inhale ========== gulp:drink
7.PLAYWRIGHT : DRAMA : stenographer : transcript ========= novelist:fiction
13.INDEFATIGABLE : TIRE : intransigent : compromise =========== WAS CORRECT - I wanted to see the discussion
17.DESERTER : ARMY turncoat : enemy ======== dropout:society
| By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit |
LOL Fairy~
You must be VERY good at debating.
The practice makes you better at identifying how words relate and makes you better at recognizing patterns in a quicker fashion. Learning more vocab is the gravy.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:13 pm: Edit |
And the turkey tastes bland without the gravy, doesn't it? =P As long as we agree it's gravy and not a speck of salt, the rest is dandy! Xiggi, you said it yourself, 1st post of thread: Most of the 9 words were TOTALLY trivial when put in context - *or trivial for anyone with a decent vocabulary* =)
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit |
Yay, i got them right. Your sis is smart xiggi. Thanks, for cr i'll just practice and read, hopefully that'll help.
| By Soulofheaven8 (Soulofheaven8) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit |
That this thread has gone to such length surprises me. To put it in simple terms, wordlists are there so that people do not randomly pick up a dictionary and start on rote memorization. However, are wordlists absolutely necessary for success on the SAT? of course not. My advice is: if you are gonna spend your days idling around, staring at the ceiling, playing childish games, then you might as well pick up a word list.
For those good students which good reasoning skills, then wordlists are just onerous nuisances.
| By Rosiebabe5 (Rosiebabe5) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit |
what can a person who is starting out with a 700 verbal (1st test) do to increase the score? i didnt memorize any 3500 word list.
| By Fairyofwind (Fairyofwind) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 09:56 pm: Edit |
Keep doing a lot of practice tests and read wordlists if you aren't testing.
| By Tootall (Tootall) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit |
That's sound advice.
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