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By Apguy (Apguy) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Well, at least this one isn't $400.

Looks kind of like that "SAT-Secrets" site Xiggi bought a book from.

These guys have to learn how to push their product without sounding like a shady infomercial:

"REVEALED!
WHAT YOUR SAT PREP ISN'T TELLING YOU:
HOW I ACED THE SAT
AND YOU CAN, TOO
without spending $800
without taking inconvenient classes
without learning 5000 vocabulary words"

By Apg (Apg) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

This reads like spam for another product that is supposed to "increase" something.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:48 pm: Edit

"Why you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever guess on an SAT question. This is the opposite of what almost everyone else teaches, and this one strategy ALONE has increased my students' scores over 200 points at a time."

That's hard to believe.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit

hmmmm....why would they have a money back guarentee?

By Testtaker (Testtaker) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Hmmm very interesting. They have a money back guarantee, so maybe it makes sense to buy it if it is always returnable.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Why not just buy it, use it, then return it. I mean, it's a downloadable program so they don't know how much you use it

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Okies, I'll make your life easier.

I'll buy it and tell you how it compares with the $20 "Sat-Secrets" garbage. I've a feeling it wont be anything special but my curiosity is stronger than my common sense.


By the way, the Sat Secrets also had a money-back guarantee but I did not want to spend days arguing with them about getting a refund.

Those money-back guarantees are a lot like the mail-in coupons and rebates. They know that most people forget about it and then they use every trick in the book to avoid issuing the checks. I just got robbed by Sony for 150 dollars. I send them everything and they said that they never received it. I sent them copies of everything and they answered that copies were not acceptable. How do you send an ORIGINAL twice? Oh well, that is one of my peet peeves!

By Apg (Apg) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Those money-back guarantees are a lot like the mail-in coupons and rebates. They know that most people forget about it and then they use every trick in the book to avoid issuing the checks. I just got robbed by Sony for 150 dollars. I send them everything and they said that they never received it. I sent them copies of everything and they answered that copies were not acceptable. How do you send an ORIGINAL twice? Oh well, that is one of my peet peeves!

---

By Apguy (Apguy) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:47 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Those money-back guarantees are a lot like the mail-in coupons and rebates. They know that most people forget about it and then they use every trick in the book to avoid issuing the checks.

---

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:49 pm: Edit

I've a feeling it wont be anything special but my curiosity is stronger than my common sense.

lol. Yeah I am curious to know if this really works or not but I am quite skeptical as well.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit

I just finished the download part.

First impressions:

The 4 books on the pictures are condensed to a 102 pages PDF file. Seeing 102 pages was scary because the Sat Secrets also comprised 102 pages and the documents looked eerily similar.

However, a VERY quick read revealed that it is NOT the same document. This one seems much better written. It is obviously a short document and won't put Kaplan or Gruber's out of business.

I am now printing it and will do a more comprehensive reading this afternoon. It is impossible to vouch for the effectiveness of a strategy without actually trying it.

However, I am still skeptical

By Apguy (Apguy) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:05 pm: Edit

The only thing I'm curious about is just how bad this book is.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Wow! Thanks a lot Xiggi!

By Testtaker (Testtaker) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Eagerly anticiping your review!

By Njboe (Njboe) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

anyone actually gonna buy that stuff?

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit

if it gets good reviews from Xiggi.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Okies, here it is:

I started reading the 100 pages looking for reasons to criticize the writer and be able to call him a pompous ass. How could anyone pretend to help me Ace the SAT by reading a few pages?

Well, it took me so long to get back with this review because I honestly could not find much to criticize. The author's approach is not boring nor arrogant and his suggestions are all correct.

The author proposes his approach to solve ALL problems and then proceeds to ILLUSTRATE the approach on about 100 math and verbal questions borrowed FROM the 10 Real SATs.

The best way to describe the book is that it feels like you are spending 2-3 hours with a tutor or with the smartest student of your class. So, you sit back and absorb the lesson. Obviously you would not expect a tutor to refresh 3 years of HS school math in 2-3 hours. If that is your need, you need to focus on Gruber's.

Like any of the tens of books written about the SAT, there are NO magical shortcuts. By now, you probably know that I believe in getting as many sources possible and build a library of helpful strategies.

As such, I did NOT mind spending the 50 dollars. However, do not expect to find a list of the 20 MUST-KNOW magic tricks but rather a number of very solid tips.

In the end, I believe that the author UNDERSTANDS the SAT test very well and it shows that he is a professional tutor. In that sense, 50 dollars probably represents 20 minutes of tutoring and is not expensive. If you compare-but you shouldn't-with Kaplan or Gruber, there is a lot more material in the published books and they are cheaper. If you plan to take SAT prep classes, spend the 50 dollars on the book and buy the Gruber/PR/Kaplan collection. You will come out WAY ahead.

In conclusion, the book is probably not for everyone-but none are! If you have a SAT budget, include in your list. After all, if you do not like it, you can always use the money back guarantee.

PS This book may also be helfpul for the ultra-gifted but lazy like hell kid who decides to study the SAT at 8pm the day before the test. What a sentence!

By Testtaker (Testtaker) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Xiggi, did you learn anything new from this book that you did not find in Gruber/PR/Kaplan/Barons?

Were there any SUPER useful tips that the book gave?

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:52 pm: Edit

wow thanks a lot xiggi.

One question: they say they had a CR strategy where you dont need to read the passage at all...Is that explained in the book?

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Xiggi, did you learn anything new from this book that you did not find in Gruber/PR/Kaplan/Barons?

Were there any SUPER useful tips that the book gave?

Humm, I thought I addressed that with ...

1. Like any of the tens of books written about the SAT, there are NO magical shortcuts.

2. However, do not expect to find a list of the 20 MUST-KNOW magic tricks but rather a number of very solid tips.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Jason~

Yes, the general idea is to read the questions carefully, then answer the questions that address the citations first and save the general questions for last.

By Apguy (Apguy) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Thanks for the review. I'm not surprised that the "magic secret" wasn't revealed through this. What I'm wondering though is how in the world does the author recommends NOT GUESSING?

By Testtaker (Testtaker) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Ok, thank Xiggi. I guess since there is nothing new and this book is more expensive than others it does not really make sense to buy. Do you feel that you benefited from it?

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Testtaker~

It is hard question to answer since I feel that I have reached the point of diminishing returns a few weeks ago. Nothing was "new" and revolutionary in the book but that did not make it worthless. Nothing was new because I have bought and READ most of the books on the SAT .

My theory from the beginning was to spend on books but stay away from Prep classes. Most of my friends signed up for the $800 to $1200 classes. I made a deal with my parents that I would spend MORE time self-prepping than the classes would require and that I would use the money as I please.

I did not like all the books I bought but I believe that all served some purpose. As an example, most people rave about Gruber's. I found it interesting and exhaustive but by the time I finished 10 practice tests, I only used it once or twice and as a reference.

I am still adding to "my" library and looking at more SAT sources but only because my sister is starting HS this year. I hope I can help her along the way by not repeating some of the mistakes I made-like believing some teachers and school counselors. The best part is that she probably will ace the damn SAT in 9th grade with or without my help but that way I can take some credit

As I said before, I do not regret having bought this book since it only increased my budget from 650 to 700 dollars. Just as small difference and not a waste of money.

By Student9 (Student9) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:02 am: Edit

Xiggi,

Can u tell me anything about KAPLAN 1600?

I just started working on it.

I found it to be very useful, I have 600V 610M, what will mastering this book do for my score?

It will obviously rise, but to what extent?
Is 1400 possible?

Can u please comment on this book?

I would appreciate it.

By Apguy (Apguy) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:08 am: Edit

The book is effective but I don't think it is exactly the ideal preparation if you are scoring in the 1100s or 1200s. The entire book is hard questions only.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:04 am: Edit

Hi guys,

Xiggi was kind enough to forward me a copy of his review, which I definitely appreciate.

I know I'm quite possibly taking my life into my own hands, but here goes . . .

I'm the guy who wrote that book discussed above, and who put up the web site noted by Jason 817.

I have a couple of things to ask and a couple of things to contribute.

First, the guessing thing. Whenever I teach people this I feel like the surgeon who first realized that hospital workers should wash their hands. A lot of people don't believe me. This is obviously a smart crowd, but my message remains the same, and I have the theory and facts to back it up.

Okay, here goes. The guessing strategy--which is really THE strategy out there that everyone knows--works like this (skip this part if you already know it, obviously):

---begin explanation of common knowledge---
1. Every wrong answer to an SAT question will lose you a fraction of a raw point equal to 1/(#answers - 1). That means a wrong answer to an RC question loses you 1/(5-1) raw points, or 1/4; a wrong answer to a grid-in question loses you 1/(10,000ish - 1) raw points, which winds up being 0 when it actually gets calculated. In theory, then, guessing randomly should result in a score difference of zero raw points, since every correct random guess will be offset by incorrect random guesses.

2. The standard basic guessing strategy says that if we can narrow down the choices by eliminating answers that are obviously wrong, then we should be able to guess correctly more often, since we're guessing from a smaller pool of choices. If that's true, then the raw points we get from guessing correctly will outpace the raw points we lose from guessing incorrectly. A seemingly bulletproof idea, I admit.

3. There are advanced versions of this theory that try to help us predict which choices we can eliminate--we're supposed to look for extreme word choices to be wrong, for example, or for math choices that seem too easy late in the section.

----end explanation of common knowledge--you can start reading here again if you want---

So, where's the problem in this wildly popular strategy? Good question.

In order for the guessing strategy to work, two things have to happen:

1. We have to eliminate wrong answers from consideration.
2. We have to guess randomly from the remaining answers.

The first thing, believe it or not, hardly ever happens. I haven't quantified it, but I'd say in my tutoring and class experience that guessers eliminate the right answer from consideration a little more than half the time. On the SAT, the wrong answers are generated according to rules and patterns (the biggest of which are explained in my Guides), and those rules and patterns are designed to make the wrong answers appear right to a person who can't answer the question. So the thing that keeps us from answering the question in the first place is also the thing that keeps us from including the right answer in our guessing pool. (This is OFTEN the case, not always, of course.)

Of course, if you eliminate the correct answer from consideration, the odds of guessing correctly drop to zero. But we're not done yet.

2. Let's say that we're consistently able to eliminate only incorrect answers from consideration. We still have to guess randomly in order for the forces of probability to take effect. Almost nobody ever does this. If you direct the guessing based on what you think is right, then statistics and probability never even make an entrance. The end result is that you try to select an answer based on a partial understanding of the question--and since the answers are awfully similar when you don't understand the question, you guess wrong way more often than you should, and you lose points.

So there's the theoretical proof. And now for the empirical proof: I've helped hundreds of kids take the SAT (between teaching for the biggest company while I was in college, tutoring kids on my own, and teaching my own classes), and I've never seen anybody guess their way into the 99th percentile. It doesn't happen. Also, I've seen plenty of kids vow never to guess again, and wind up increasing their scores by 200 - 300 points (after a one-day prep class). I know I'm probably gonna get torn apart in this forum for saying that guessing is a bad idea, but I promise you that the guessing emperor has no clothes. If you don't believe me, try it yourself and see.

(On top of all that, and I know you don't really believe me when I say this, all of the testimonials on my site are genuine and unsolicited. I also have several more that I haven't put up yet because I'm too busy writing guides for other tests. How could that happen if I was lowering people's scores left and right?)

Now, for anybody who's still reading this heresy , I'd like to offer a theoretical magic bullet that I've been thinking about lately. I'd never actually suggest it in a professional capacity, but it makes a good thought experiment. What would happen if you started taking the SAT as early as possible, took it every time you could, and just christmas-treed the whole thing every time? You'd wind up taking the test well over 20 times, and it seems like you'd almost have to get lucky one of those times on each section, ending up with a halfway decent score. So if you guessed purely--no elimination, no interference with the randomness--and did it often enough, could you do well? I don't know. If it worked, though, you'd have an excellent strategy that would still cost less than taking an expensive prep class.

Okay, so that's an explanation of the guessing thing. I can feel myself starting to get laughed off the stage, so I'll jump into my questions now:

You're right that the site has sort of a late-night infomercial feel to it, but there's a reason for that. I used to maintain only the main web site, not the one Jason 817 found. It has a more professional feel to it. But I never sold any books. So I read some things about selling on the Internet, and the end result was the web site you guys hate so much. But the thing is that it sells much better. It works, and the refined, intellectual(-ish) approach didn't. I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts on that, if it's cool with the rules of this forum. (If it's not cool, then never mind, but please know I realize how it all comes across.)

By the way, I bought the "secrets" book too, before I launched my own site, because I didn't want to enter the fray if somebody was already doing a better job. The fact that I ultimately did enter the fray should tell you what I thought of it. I really hope I'm not like that. I'm also gonna give you the chance to tell me if you think I *am* like that. But that's in a minute. Anyway, for a surreal twist to your day, go to this site:

http://www.cajun-pirogue.com/

By Student9 (Student9) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:05 am: Edit

...and gaining experience with hard problems will work to my advantage.

For example: Once HARD arithmetic is mastered, then MEDIUM and EASY arithmetic should come naturally.

This isn't all I'm using to prepare for October.

Xiggi, I still want ur opinion, u r the master of this stuff!

By Student9 (Student9) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:25 am: Edit

1 correct answer = 1 point
1 incorrect answer = - .25 point


So for every correct answer, u can have 4 incorrect answers

Let's say there are 5 questions. U answer the first correctly and are unsure about the other 4. U can eliminate 1 or 2 choices from what u know on the remaining 4 questions. U decide to guess.

u could either not guess, and remain with 1 point, or u could guess

chances are high that at least one question will end up being correctly guessed out of the 4 remaining.

(one guess is correct) so u get 2 correct and 3 wrong = 1.25 score

which is obviously greater than a 1.

In the worst situation u won't get any correct, and will end up with a zero, but this is unlikely for one who makes EDUCATED guesses.

Of course, this varies according to the situation of the student's score before thinking about guessing.

By Apg (Apg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:48 am: Edit

Michael,
I'm impressed with your explanation. It so happens that I have a stack of unused Xiggi Released SAT's sitting on my windowsill. Tomorrow I will have to give your no-guess strategy a try.

BTW, are you suggesting that if, say, Mr. Katzman were to follow your theory on guessing, then he would be able to give 200 instead of 100 point guarantees? Common sense suggests that if this were possible, he would have already done so.

Of course, this is of no relevance to those of us who are always sure of our answers, only later to find that we missed half the hard questions...

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 03:41 am: Edit

Hi Apg et al,

Please do give the no-guessing thing a shot. But it works much, much better if you develop a sense of when your answers are right or wrong--and there are some reliable ways to do that explained in the free trial version that i've linked to below.

IMHO, the main problem with the guessing strategy--beyond the detriment it does to your score--is that it encourages people to look at the SAT like a crap shoot. In fact, the test is very simple and follows the same rules and patterns consistently, once we know to look for them. A lot of students come to me who guess on EVERY single question; in fact, they don't even understand how a person can ever be sure of an answer on the SAT. As you can imagine, these people never score very high until they stop using that mindset.

As regards Mr. Katzman's guarantee, I think the fine print reveals it's not much of one. You have to attend every single class and do every assignment, and they give you another shot with the same system--if it didn't work after every single class and every single assignment, then I don't see why more of the same thing would be any help. On top of that, I know two people (my girlfriend's cousin, and a client of one of my business partners) who have tried to collect on this guarantee with no luck. In the first case, the girl left one of her class sessions 30 mins early and then only went up 20 points. I don't know the details of the second case. (I believe those centers are owned independently, though, so a refund experience at one might not be the same as the experience at another.)

As for my guarantee, I include it because people are naturally skeptical of a web site like mine, and it's one thing I can do to put their minds at ease. On top of that, if I *were* scamming people, which I'm not, they could get their card companies to issue chargebacks and I'd lose my vendor status completely. I have to say, in all fairness, that I aked for a refund of my "secrets" file after I bought it, and the refund was issued within 24 hours. I certainly haven't given many refunds, but it does happen, usually because of technical troubles. I even gave Xiggi a refund--which he didn't ask for--just to show that it happens

And as for the "would have already done so" argument, I agree that it stands to reason that nobody would teach guessing if it didn't work. In fact, the biggest flaw in my anti-guessing theory is that everybody seems to like the guessing idea. Here's my hypothesis for why people still teach you to guess:

The people who found test prep companies, like me, are not people who guess. You do not score in the top 1% by guessing, plain and simple. But if you're going to teach other people how to do well, they need to feel like you're giving them a "magic bullet." Since the guessing theory makes sense (the conclusion follows logically from the assumptions; it's just that the assumptions are wrong), people buy into it. On top of that, most companies who advocate guessing also give you made-up sample problems where it's very easy to eliminate a couple of obviously wrong answers and then guess from what's left. So I'm thinking it's a combination of the desire to give people something easy to do, the desire of consumers to buy into an easy idea, and the reinforcement achieved by having people practice on fake questions that are tailored to make guessing possible. But that's just my theory--I haven't done any research to back it up.

But the idea that not guessing must not be a good idea because nobody does it is flawed. Again, go back to the hand-washing thing; there was a time when nobody washed their hands before surgery, and eventually someone came along with the idea, even though nobody had thought of it before. Ideas always have to come from somewhere; if things go the way I want them to, the other companies will come around to my way of thinking, just as they all eventually came around to the guessing strategy years ago. (Already, I get kids in my classes who tell me their teachers told them never to guess on the SAT. That NEVER happened a year or so ago.)

30-minute pizza delivery and overnight mail seemed ridiculous once, too, but now they've defined their industries. I don't know if the no-guess approach will do the same, but the fact that it hasn't revolutionized the whole world immediately doesn't mean that it's a bad idea.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Here's that link to the free trial version of the SAT Value Pack. You can't print it, and it will self-destruct in 3 days, but it'll give you an idea of what I'm talking about. (I'm taking down the link in 24 hours, so if you're interested, give it a shot now, while you're still thinking about it.)

Link:

http://www.grammatix.com/aservcfguytc/TrialSATGuidepdf.exe

(Of course, the real version of the value pack can be printed out, and doesn't expire after 3 days.)

By Student8712 (Student8712) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 03:59 am: Edit

How do you open the file up???

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

oops--almost forgot--

when you try to run that download of the trial version, it'll ask you for a code number. that number is

DA2637B7

sorry about that--
Mike

By Apguy (Apguy) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:30 am: Edit

But even Collegeboard says to guess if you can eliminate as it is statistically in our favor. So would they be essentially lying to us?

I'll give the guessing thing a try, but I have to say- I am skeptical. I have hit 1400 on a few Real SATs but I guess like crazy! If I come across a verbal question where all the choices are words I never knew like "cauterize" or something, I just guess and give it a shot. It would scare me to see how many blanks would be on my paper from choosing not to guess on a question such as that.

From practice tests I have evaluated (from 10 Real) it seems to be working in my favor. Also, in the Sparknotes online test prep you can "flag" which questions you guessed on and it will automatically count the number you got wrong from guessing and number you go right to figure out how many points your score increased. In doing so, it will tell you something like "Guessing boosted your score 20 points and it is working to your favor. Keep guessing." For some people, they will have to deal with hearing that guessing DIDN'T work in their favor. Quality of guessing seems to vary by person AND by test.

Also, what do you make of guessing "strategies"? A book called Up Your Score (which a poster from the Princeton Review forum actually helped write) gives tips on guessing which seem very good and have proven (for me) to be very effective. For example, they say in a math SAT question if your answer choices are:

A) 2 B)3 C)4 D)4.5 E) 5

That it will probably be choice C or D. The reasoning behind this is that the "impostor" answers planted by Collegeboard will try to fool you or mess you up on a calculation so that by spotting the "impostor" you can also find the real answer. Seems genuine to me. It's helped my guessing ability greatly and I've actually been able to use it quite well on the NYS Chemistry regents.

So I think the guessing thing works for me, but I'll give your tips a chance.

Your time is invaluable and much appreciated.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:54 am: Edit

Hi AP,

I'm glad there are other test-obsessed insomniacs in the world

Hey, by all means, if the guessing works for you, I'd stick with it. Some people are intuitive test-takers, certainly. But the reports I've heard back from people have indicated that their scores increased when they stopped guessing and started implementing patterns. (Of course, I'm more likely to hear back from people who like my approach, so my feedback is biased.)

But if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 1400 is certainly a respectable score.

Yeah, I haven't figured out the College Board thing either. They used to just say "guessing is unlikely to change your score," which is technically true (either you guess blindly and should come out even, or you don't guess blindly and there' no likelihood of anything, because there's no probability involved). But 10RS now actively tells you to guess. My only explanation is that the people who write the test and the people who write the prep are different people?

Similar example:
10RS tells you how to use geometry to solve the question about the cube on page 589 of the second edition of 10rs (question 10). You can definitely use geometry to answer it, but that will take you a couple of minutes; alternatively, if you know about SAT rules and patterns, you know to look for the only answer choice that actually is a cubic number. There's only one of them, and that's the right answer.

The basic idea behind that solution is ridiculously simple, and occurs throughout the test, but the College Board will never tell you about it. (And they must know they're doing it, because they repeat it all the time.)

So maybe they're just not showing all their cards? On the other hand, if they prepped everybody into great scores, they'd have to recalibrate the test, so maybe their goal is really to offer prep that maintains the current score distribution? I have no idea. Any of those theories could be wrong. (Probably they all are )

The "impostor" idea is great, and you certainly can't say anything bad about UYS. But two things:

1. No actual SAT question would offer those particular answer choices (rules and patterns again), and

2. If you combine the impostor idea with a simple knowledge of math and then back your way into the right answer, I wouldn't call that a guess--that, to me, is using the answer choices to help figure out the answer. Which is essential. A guess, to me, is putting down an answer you're not positive of. But if you learn things like the "impostor" pattern, and combine that with what you know about the question and your intuitive sense about the SAT that you've developed from practice, then where's the guessing in that?

This is not to say that I'm just calling every right answer a non-guess and every wrong answer a guess. But there are definitely ways to be sure you have the right answer without actually knowing what the question is asking you (again, rules and patterns), and that, to me, is not guessing.

I appreciate your time a lot too. I use feedback from people to help strenghten my work (the class is in its fourth incarnation now, and the current combined pdf document is like the 8 version of it--i've lost count). If you guys tell me you like something, it'll probably stay in there. If you say that an idea is horrible, and your explanation makes sense to me, then i'm tossing it.)

BTW, if you have any questions you'd like me to answer about the SAT or college admissions or anything, you can reach me at mbarrett@grammatix.com

(Course, if you think I'm a crack-pot and don't want my advice, I can't blame you . . .)

By Apg (Apg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit

Michael,
I'm a Mac guy myself, so obviously I can't use an .exe file.

But anyway, I'm aware of the fact that TPR almost never has to make good on its guarantee; I have it on good authority that they rig their first diagnostic exam to be impossible difficult. Since most people who use their classes do not submit their own scores, I would imagine that this is a very effective method of giving a worthless guarantee.

Also, some of us find that even when we eliminate all but two answers (especially on critical reading) we are still drawn to the decoy. Would it be outrageous for me to say that guessing is more effective on Math than on Verbal?

Finally, would you agree that there are different ways that one may define "guessing" and that, while the "eliminate one answer school" may be wrong, it is perfectly possible to be, say, a "self aware" guesser?

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Sorry Apg, I didn't realize that. When I went with the exe format I was under the mistaken impression that macs had emulators that could run all PC programs. I've since found out that isn't true, but now I'm committed to the format.

I don't know about the TPR test, but I can tell you that when I worked for their competitor, the situation you described certainly seemed to be the case at that company.

If you define guessing as "putting down an answer when you don't know what the question is asking you," then I'd agree that self-aware guessing is sometimes okay. Also, by that definition, I'd be a huge guesser.

But to me, it makes more sense to define guessing as "putting down an answer when you're not completely sure that you're right." By that definition, I never, ever guess. Here's the difference:

The other day I was teaching a class and we came across an analogy that used the word *perfidious.* As previously mentioned, I never study vocabulary, so I didn't know what this word meant. But because I knew the rules and patterns of the test, I was able to KNOW--not guess--the relationship between *perfidious* and the word next to it, which in turn allowed me to answer the question. I don't consider that to be guessing; to me it's just a creative way to take the rules and patterns of a standardized test and identify which answer choice they're indicating as the right answer.

If guessing works better for you on Math than Verbal, then I would advise you to keep guessing on Math and not as much on Verbal. I would never advise a test-taker to stop doing something that led to a score he was happy with.

But I still think, for whatever it's worth, that using rules and patterns is better than guessing. For example, I always start my class with Reading Comprehension exercises, because a lot of test-takers have a very negative view of the section. They all seem to feel like the RC is open to wide interpretation, and it's anybody's guess what the right answer is. But if you know the rules and patterns that predict wrong and right answer, you NEVER choose the decoy, because you always know exactly how to spot it.

Here, to me, is the difference:

In an RC question, the average test-taker knows all the relevant words and concepts. If you understand all the concepts in the text and the answer choices and still can't see the answer as plain as day, then something isn't right--you've made a mistake somewhere. At this point, I would say just skip it--you're only human, and it's no big deal. But if you try to narrow it down and guess, you'll be wrong way more often than pure probability would indicate, because the thing that keeps you from seeing the right answer in the first place is also the thing that keeps you from guessing the right answer.

In a math question (or any other question where you might not know all the concepts discussed), if you combine knowledge of a definite pattern (like the impostor one, although there are patterns that are much stronger than that) with what you do know about the question in order to predict a correct answer with absolute confidence, I wouldn't call that a guess. That's just knowing the test backwards and forwards, and keying into repeated rules and patterns that consistently point you to the right answer.

All, of course, IMHO.

So sign me

Mike
(a self-aware non-guessing guesser)

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Wow. Thanks Mike, for the helpful explanations and the link to the pdf file. I never thought that the author himself would bother posting here

By Fatjoe (Fatjoe) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:00 pm: Edit

This may be a tad off-topic, but is it me or is it everytime i take a 10RS or an actual SAT exam i get the answer choices C-B-A on at least 2 out of the 7 sections?

By Apg (Apg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Wow. Thanks Mike, for the helpful explanations and the link to the pdf file. I never thought that the author himself would bother posting here

---

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Hi guys,

Not to be a hassle, but if anybody has any feedback, i'd greatly appreciate it. You can email me if you'd rather not post it.

thanks again
mike

By Camron (Camron) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Hey Xitammarq:

I think your brother goes to my school and so did you.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Camron--

Wow, no way. Good ol' Stanton? Are you in IB?

Mike

By Irfan235 (Irfan235) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:18 pm: Edit

GO PAXON!!!

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:20 pm: Edit

hahaha--wow, even on the internet, cross-town magnet school rivalry rears its ugly head

Hey, what year are you at paxon, irfan? i've gone there to speak a couple times. the last time, i wound up using my shoulder tattoo to teach somebody linguistics. it was transcendent.

By Camron (Camron) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Yes i got stanton in jax. Go BLUE DEVILS! Shut up Irfan! LOL

By Irfan235 (Irfan235) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Yea, we Paxonites are one of kind, right Camron? I'm going to be a junior in the IB program.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:25 pm: Edit

so . . .feedback? 20 people have downloaded, somebody has to have an opinion? (i won't ask again, don't worry)

thanks,
mike

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 07:32 pm: Edit

The program was surprisingly useful. My favorite part was the answer explanations of questions from 10 Real SATS. The analogy strategies are the best. Just like what Kaplan teaches except this goes into a little more detail. The Critical Reading strategies were quite useful too. It tells you how to find the answer in a more simple way than some other books. I haven't went over the math section yet though so I don't know about that.

By Student9 (Student9) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 07:37 pm: Edit

The Critical reading portion is EXCELLENT.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 11:52 am: Edit

Wow guys, thanks. (praise from a whole boardful of ceasars!)

let me know if you have any questions.

mike

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 11:54 am: Edit

wait, is that how you spell ceasar? or is it caesar?

i think the second one is right. can't remember at the moment.

mike

By Camron (Camron) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Mike,

Your strategies are brilliant. I especially like the CR and Analogies strategies. I really would love to take your course since I live here in Jacksonville, but I can't since I have already spent $700+ on a Kaplan course. My SAT goal may sound unreasonably high, but I believe you have the strategies to get me there. I need to increase my score durastically to even have a chance at the schools I want to apply to. I am taking the Kaplan course right now but I find that many of your strategies are MORE useful. I.E: RC strategy to not read the whole passage and answer the word use questions along with the citation questions, and then, go back to the general passage q's. In my class our teacher taught us to read the whole passage and make a 1-2 sent. summary of each individual paragraph and jot down the main point of the passage at the end. I find this strategy very time consuming though.

Well, anyways, like I said I can't take your class but I would possibly like to purchase one of your books (is this electronic document the same that is in the books?). Don't mind me asking, but what is the cheapest way to get your strategies? I really feel like you could be a secret weapon in helping me score my desired score. Feedback would be much appreciated. If you don't want to post in here you can reach me at Camman13x@hotmail.com

P.S.
(To your earlier post) I am in the IB Program at Stanton and will be a junior.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Hi Camron,

Thanks. It's really nice of you to say all that.

I don't mind posting the cheapest way to get the strategies. Actually, free is pretty cheap, and that's what you guys have right now, although that file will extinguish soon.

The next-cheapest way is to buy the value pack from the web site, and to do it soon--the price is going up sometime in August. (The demand has gone up and people have told me they passed on buying it because the current price makes it seem too cheap in comparison to other options.)

The next-next-cheapest way is to attend a class, which also includes unlimited email and phone support afterwards (and food during the class, always a selling point).

After that, the next-next-next cheapest (also known as the most expensive) way is to let me live in your house, paying me a stipend of 4 grand a month, plus room and board. Also I would have to be allowed to play video games for 12 hours every day.

So there you have it. Oh--there are also free reports and a free email class at the main web site, www.grammatix.com . Those aren't the same strategies as the ones in the value pack, but they do include other useful and free information.

thanks again for the kind words,
mike

By Jje (Jje) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:32 pm: Edit

"REVEALED!
WHAT YOUR SAT PREP ISN'T TELLING YOU:
HOW I ACED THE SAT
AND YOU CAN, TOO
without spending $800
without taking inconvenient classes
without learning 5000 vocabulary words"

How is it possible to master the verbal (mainly sent comp and anologies) without memorizing vocab like he says in his ad.

By Jje (Jje) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:36 pm: Edit

If it is possible for someone to e-mail me a copy I'd greatly appreciate it. I'll give my e-mail out if someone is so generous.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Basically, it involves learning the rules and patterns that govern the test, so you don't need to know all the words in a given question. You can read a little bit about the ideas here:

http://www.grammatix.com/shop/cgi-bin/grammatix.cgi?pg=memberssat4

The actual techniques are in the value pack.

Mike

ps If the SAT were really a vocabulary test, wouldn't it stick to the same vocabulary for ever test? Also, if it's a vocab test, why don't they ever actually ask you to define any words, instead of asking you how to use words in certain situations? On top of that, why do even the hardest questions always contain at least a few words that most people know?

By Camron (Camron) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Got to the link posted above Jje:
By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 03:41 am

Mike,
Can I get the value pack in the books or is that just a picture? I rather have the books than the download. If so, it is $49.95 right?

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Hi Camron,

Actually, the hard copies haven't existed in a while. In the rare event that people want the hard copy now, all I do is print out the main file and mail it to them. Not a completely satisfactory solution, but it gives you the actual pages if that's what you want.

Thanks,
Mike

By Camron (Camron) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Can you just take off the lock on one of the files and send it to me for free to my email? Just kidding. I guess i'll just try to read the pdf file before it self-destructs. LOL

By Apg (Apg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Ok Mike, now I'm interested. I'll pay the full ($50) fee, but I curious as to whether or not the pay-file is also in .exe. If it is, is there any way I can buy a copy of the regular pdf?

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 04:15 pm: Edit

wait, is that how you spell ceasar? or is it caesar?

i think the second one is right. can't remember at the moment.

A before e like in Aesthetics. This will help remember it Ave Caesar => A_e Caesar!

Not brilliant but it works for me

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 04:54 pm: Edit

thanks xiggi-- i used to be an incredible speller, but then i started studying other languages and now I can hardly spell my own name. or speak my own language. sigh.

AP--I'd be happy to mail you a hard copy if you want, but I can't sell the plain ol' pdf, for purposes of keeping my intellectual property rights intact. Not that I don't trust you, but I can't bend the rules for anybody; if I do, it would be harder to strengthen a claim that I tried to maintain control of the material, if I ever needed to prove that to anybody.

I'm still investigating ways to protect the file across all platforms, but so far there just doesn't seem to be any way to do it.

(BTW, I realize a person could just photocopy the printed version if they were interested in screwing me, but there's already established law against that, and there isn't any established law for digital rights, at least not yet.)

hey, here's another way to remember caesar--it's the ancestor of the german word "kaiser," which also has the a first.

By Apg (Apg) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Mike I understand your IP issue, and I've sent you an email. BTW, have you considered Adobe's ebook format?

By Testtaker (Testtaker) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 12:08 am: Edit

why is this happening to me when I click on the link to get the 3 day thing?

Not Found
The requested URL was not found on this server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apache Server at grammatix.com

By Tweaks (Tweaks) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

Wow, this is interesting ... I'd never think a website like this would actually get positive feedback (no offense to the author because apparently it's a good product).

Alright, let me put in my two cents.

1) I earned a 1600 on the SAT because I guessed and Divine Providence intervened; no, seriously. (I never make complete guesses, though; still, there are always questions where I'm 80/20 or so) However, Xitam's idea makes a lot of sense. How you APPROACH guessing has a lot to do with what what guessing gives you. And I do agree that many people dimwittingly "eliminate" the correct answer. I've seen it happen, and I've done it myself several times.

A 200 point increase from not guessing seems to be very odd. It certainly can't happen from not guessing alone, but I assume you're combining it with your patterns and etc, and if so it would make sense. (especially for those who guess deliriously and the like)

2) Regarding your "guess-guess - then retake SATs 20 times"; I think you could raise your score about 50-100 points depending on your consistency, but not much more than that assuming you did well the first time. I think that a lot of times external factors (last night's sleep, etc) play a role, too, because with so many questions per section, your score can't vary THAT much per section.

I'm kinda tempted to buy this just to check it out. Unfortunately the trial EXE has been dead for nearly a day, and I really don't want to revive SAT prep in my life just to satistfy my curiosity.

By the way, I'd consider posting 2 or 3 trial pages on your website so that people who think they are buying into a scam can see for themselves what it's about. I have a hunch that you can exploit the 3-day timer on the trial EXE, though I have no idea that it actually works, I've seen it happen in commercial packages.

Tweaks

By Valpal (Valpal) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 04:34 am: Edit

This is all VERY interesting. I was thinking about how many people have their knickers in a twist about the consistently lower SAT scores posted by URMs applying to colleges and how the scorge of AA is keeping "smarter", more worthy whites out of the college of their choice.

It's becoming more and more obvious to me that aceing this test is largely a function of proper test preparation, and that effective test-taking instruction plays no small part in this. The lack of this knowledge explains why many straight A minority students score significantly lower on such tests. Most of them have not been shown the importance, or availability of the kinds of test preparation tools others take for granted. Many of them have been highly praised for attaining GPAs far above the average of their peers (I believe that secretly, many of the adults in their lives are impressed that these kids have achieved as well as they have academically), and they are left with the impression that a high SAT score will be a natural outgrowth of their scholarship. Often, when this doesn't happen, they are left scratching their heads in bewilderment. But nobody takes them underwing and guides them to the next step---test taking proficiency. If they are first generation college applicants, how are their parents supposed to know what to do? Therefore, these students are often left having to compete with a obvious weakness.

It is no accident that some of the highest SAT scores are posted by elite, prep-schooled students whose parents understand the importance of early positioning: You have a leg up in a foot race if you start at the front of the pack. If optimum acheivement weren't about preparation, many upper income parents wouldn't be peeing their pants trying to get their todlers into the best pre-school programs; Nor would these same parents bother to seek out the best secondary schools, hire professional college counselors, or enroll their progeny in expensive SAT prep programs. Ironically, they will then point to their children's high test scores as proof of some innate superiority!

But then we find threads on message boards such as this one, which are ALL about test taking techniques and how to identify the ones which will yield the greatest outcomes. No talk about which exhaustive vocabulary lists one had best memorize, or the importance of having a thorough knowledge of every conceivable mathmatical equation. TEST STRATEGIES!

It would indeed be very interesting to see how the scores of URMs would be effected by the knowledge of strategies such as the ones Mike teaches. But then, someone would have to make this knowledge available to them, wouldn't they?

P.S. I don't presume that the above totally explains all minority/non-minority test score disparities, but I think it's something to think about.

By Xitammarg (Xitammarg) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:48 am: Edit

Hi Valpal, Tweaks, all:--

I think the last two posts were very insightful. And I'll now have to stop saying that nobody guesses their way to a top score, which has me a little upset, but the truth can be a harsh mistress

As for the 200 - 300 point increases, I know it sounds unbelievable, but here's what happens (by and large) in those cases: A student comes to me who has only ever thought of the SAT as an impassable wall between him and his future. The only thing he's ever learned to do is guess by eliminating wrong answers, and he's scoring in the 1000 range from it. The he takes my class as a last, desparate measure, and ends up with a score in the 1250-1350 range (this is an important range in Florida, because 1270 is the cutoff for a state scholarship). Having taught these students personally, and having spoken to them afterwards, I'm sure that the only change they made was that they stopped making guesses and started looking for answers.

Valpal also makes a good point about the vocab and formulas. Here's my angle: I have never in my life touched a vocabulary list (and I've studied French, Russian, Czech, and Hungarian), and I scored in the top 1% on the SAT. After I codified my strategies and made them into a system, my little brother scored a 1600--again, with no vocab or formulas of any kind. So I know it's possible. On top of that, I've taken people who have already studied vocab and formulas, and burned out around 1300, and helped them get up another 100 points or so.

And actually, I have to get going right now, because I have a meeting with the head of guidance for Duval County Public Schools here in Jacksonville to talk about a pilot program that would introduce the Grammatix SAT System to all public high school students in Jacksonville. (But don't get too excited, Camron et al--Superintendednt Fryer is all for it, but nobody else seems to care. If you've ever worked with DCPS before you know that everything takes about twice as long as it should.) Still, I'm trying to get the message out, I promise.

My personal belief is that people are people, and the GSS would help people indiscriminately, whether URMs or not. The question is how you get the people who are ignorant of the college process--whether majority members or URMs--to find out about it. Sites like College Confidential are great, and I've posted free information at my web site, too, but both of those resources require access to the Internet. And neither of them is going to undo the type of awful guidance counseling that exists in the worst schools in Jacksonville, where kids are told not to take the SAT until they're seniors, AP classes aren't pushed, and nobody even tells a student what the FAFSA is. (I'm sure there are worse schools in America than the ones in Jacksonville, but those are the ones I know about firsthand.)

BTW, I agree with Tweaks that acethesat.com probably doesn't inspire much confidence in seasoned test-takers like you guys. So what would? I can't position the product as the same-ol' same-ol', because it doesn't use vocab, formulas, guessing, et cetera. So how should I position it? Any feedback at all would be appreciated. If it violates the rules of this board, then don't bother with any advice, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks,
Mike

By Physh (Physh) on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 06:55 pm: Edit

GO EAGLES!!!!

hey thats cool theres stanton and paxon kids here...btw im in ib