|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:09 am: Edit|
If there a sense of success, if a black guy succeeds in going out with a white girl? Or does the image of beauty potrayed in the media accepts only white girls or black girls with caucasian features?
Maybe, I'm looking to deeply into an insignificant issue. What do you guys think?
|By Cornellhopeful (Cornellhopeful) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:36 am: Edit|
I like girls of all races. I don't care what someone tells me means "success" when it comes to these issues(and it doesn't even make sense). As long as the person is educated, speaks well, is confident, and takes care of herself(whether that means beauty or not, though of course I do like SOME physical beauty, as do all people), then it doesn't matter what race they are.
However, some people tend to only date within their ethnic groups, for whichever reasons, which is a different story.
|By Wrathofgod64 (Wrathofgod64) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:20 am: Edit|
i was reading "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" and in the ghetto, it was actually considered a status symbol if a black male was able to date a white female as in Malcolm's case with Sophia. I don't know how prevalent that issue is today, however.
|By Peacefulchaos (Peacefulchaos) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:21 am: Edit|
this sounds kind of similar to the asian guy/white girl thread from before.
anyways, i am not black nor am i a guy (i am a filipina girl) so it's hard for me to say. but i know some white guys who wouldn't go out with black girls unless they are the "black girls with caucasian features"....
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:26 am: Edit|
Let's expand this discussion to include all races.
I am curious as to how people feel about dating outside their race.
I am a black guy and I have never had a black girlfriend, and I find that strange.
|By Yugekorb (Yugekorb) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:35 am: Edit|
Peace, are you sure you don't have that mixed up? I think you might be referring to the asian girl/white guy thread. But that wasn't about "success" and I've never seen an asian guy with a white girl.
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:50 am: Edit|
I'm a white girl (dark features from Native ancestors but still white) and I have had an asian boyfriend. It's not so odd here in Canada, interracial dating is so common no one really thinks about it anymore.
|By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:39 am: Edit|
This is a pretty sensitive issue, so I will be mindful of that.
I date guys that share the same political philosophy/political views as me. That's just the way I am. However, I do have close friends and associates from all across the political spectrum, in fact, most of them share completely divergent views from my own. However, I view every potential date as a potential mate (sorry to scare some guys) and my politics are more to me than just my politics, but a serious philosophy/mindset with which I approach life. And I want my mate to share that. However, I have an uphill battle finding black males that share these views, and therefore all the guys I've seriously dated (which have only been 3, or maybe, 4) have been white. I hope by broadening my circle by attending college I will meet more black males that share these same views.
My twin sister dates primarily black guys, but she has dated one white guy that I know of. She says that she gets turned off from white guys because she feels they like only black girls with very caucasian features. We've gotten into a couple of conversations about it, and I think her belief primarily stems from the fact that she has what I call a "stereotypically-driven" personality (meaning that she is compelled to paint entire groups of people into boxes, something that is quite common). There is some validity to her claims, but I don't know how universal it is, and I won't pretend to.
That's all I'll say on this matter.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit|
Even in the media world, the black females with caucasian features are more prominent than others.
When you think about famous celebrities, Beyonce, Halle Berry or Mariah Carey. All these black females have caucasian features, and they are been glorified as the standard in black beauty. What they really are, are standards of white beauty with a darker skin colour.
I have grown passionate about this issue, when I noticed that all the so-called black females in advertisements were pretty much white. Even the black barbie that my sister had, was pretty much the white barbie with a darker skin colour.
Here are some interesting articles that you, Candice, might find interesting:
There was another article, but it's on my other computer. I'll post it later.
Candice: Woah, you have a twin? That's pretty sweet. Is she going to Yale as well? Isn't political viewpoint, a bit too restrictive? Whatever... what do I know, I am shallow.
|By Golfergirl08 (Golfergirl08) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit|
To respond to Yugekorb, I am a white girl and I have an asian boyfriend. It is really not uncommon at all in the US. I know at least 2 other couples (just in my circle of friends) that follow the same pattern. And I'm quite sure we are not the only white female/asian male couples ever. Maybe you just haven't been exposed to much interracial dating in your experience. Or maybe your area just doesn't accept it as much. I live in California, near the bay area, so diversity and interracial dating are very widely accepted.
|By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 01:01 pm: Edit|
Yes, David, I have a twin, we are fraternal, however. She isn't going to Yale, she has a child...long story.
Political viewpoint...it does seem restrictive, but my politics are not just politics (as they are with most), but more a philosophy/ideology/approach to life. Sort of John Dewey's perspective on democracy...more than simply a political construct.
Thanks for the informative article. I appreciate the fact that you are exploring this issue. It only makes me think more highly of you.
I also appreciate the fact that you refer to me by my first name, Candice, instead of the abbreviated form suggested by my screenname...hehehe...
|By Mimi (Mimi) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit|
this black guy was talking about it, and he said it's not a big deal if a black guy dates a white girl, but it is a big deal if a black girl dates a white guy. he never said why though.
|By Zantedeschia (Zantedeschia) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 01:37 pm: Edit|
I've always wanted a twin, and recently my mom told me that I killed her/him in the womb and that we actually do have twin genes. Isn't that lovely? But maybe my desire to have a twin stems from my dead sibling speaking to me via those twin connections? lol
Anyway, I am an Asian girl and I've dated Black, Asian, White, Hispanic, but I've only connected and gotten serious with the white ones. Interracial dating here (NYC) is pretty common, I've seen lots of combinations, and I don't think it's a measure of status for any situation.
I agree that the black women in the media do have caucasian features, but as do most asians I think. There aren't many, but I think Lucy Liu is not representative of the typical Asian woman at all, her feature are pretty Caucasian as well.
Good luck at Yale, Candice! Maybe I'll see you around, as I have planned three visits there.
|By Yugekorb (Yugekorb) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit|
I have seen plenty of interracial couples. Two of my friends went out once, asian female and white male. I've seen whites and blacks and hispanics mixed all over, but never seen asian male/white female. I live in NC, but it's a very diverse town. It's near an Air Force Base so alot of people aren't from the South so the locals kinda have to be accepting since they're pretty much the minority. Maybe I've just never noticed it...or it's never happend around here.
|By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit|
Thanks! Hope to see you around!
|By Takiusproteus (Takiusproteus) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:05 pm: Edit|
I'm asian, with a white gf. Old news. Pretty common. Big deal.
The perception that being a minority male while dating a white girl is "success" is simply ridiculous and self-degrading.
Certain features are universally attractive and definately not "caucasian", obviously because they appear in all races. The idea that these attractive features are exclusively caucasian is something that would be coming out of the mouth of a white supremacist.
|By Alphamom (Alphamom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit|
Can't resist noting this. Caucasian features held beautiful in celebrities of all races aren't on most Caucasian women either! Their bodies aren't standard for that matter. Isn't it all about who you connect with best; who appreciates life the way you do who is ultimately attractive? Let those people with impossible standards stay on another planet.
|By Girlforever101 (Girlforever101) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit|
Davidrune: Very interesting article. I have noticed the Anglican features on most of the well-known black models/actors and even features on just commercial actresses. It is not necessarily a bad thing it is just an observation.
As a black female, I find myself attracted to all races, some more than others. Although, in my area, black guys seem to date outside their race more readily than black women seem to. To me, date whomever you want to date, it's not a big deal. I know that some black women get the "stealing our men" attitude but I can see it from that standpoint, however I don't agree with it.
The only thing I would truly have a problem with is if a guy or girl intentionally dates every race but their own. If you end up never dating your own race fine, but going out of your way to make sure you don't is wrong. I find that in my area occasionally.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:08 pm: Edit|
Candice: Thanks for the compliment, so your sister has a child... that must be an interesting story.
Takiusproteus: Your statement about features are a bit wrong. Every race has specific features characteristics of that race. There are three main groups caucasoid, mongoloid and negroid.
This site http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000336.html
has the charactersistics of the first two. I was unable to find a detailed description of the last one. However, you can tell from looking at noses. Black people generally have flat noses with large nostrils, while caucasians have thinner noses with smaller nostrils. However, women that exhibit this features are usually discredited as unattractive. However, this is not often the case, e.g. Brandy.
But if you look at Halle Berry and Beyonce (I keep using them as examples because they are the apotheosis of my point) they have a lot of the white features. This is not a suprematist statement. It is probably because they have some white blood in them.
I'm sorry for any generalizations that I might have made in my statement. Please, do not attack me.
Alphamom: You're right.
|By Peacefulchaos (Peacefulchaos) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit|
"But if you look at Halle Berry and Beyonce (I keep using them as examples because they are the apotheosis of my point) they have a lot of the white features. This is not a suprematist statement. It is probably because they have some white blood in them."
you're right. halle berry is half polish. mariah carey is more than half white i believe.
|By Alexandre (Alexandre) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:38 pm: Edit|
I don't know guys, I like women of all types. Why limit yourself to one type! African, Arabic, Asian, European, Latin...it all good! hehe
|By Peacefulchaos (Peacefulchaos) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit|
"I think Lucy Liu is not representative of the typical Asian woman at all, her feature are pretty Caucasian as well."
sorry if it's a bit off-topic, but WE NEED MORE ASIAN WOMEN in the public eye...
|By Aim78 (Aim78) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit|
Only if they get some talent. Kristin Kreuk may be hot, but she's horrid in Smallville.
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit|
umm? beyonce? white features? look at her body! that's not a white girl's form.
|By Zantedeschia (Zantedeschia) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:18 pm: Edit|
Kristin Kreuk is only half-asian...that's in a whole other "media appreciates mixes" category...
And I think Beyonce has an ugly body and no talent.
|By Aim78 (Aim78) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:42 am: Edit|
She has a body AND talent. I don't listen to her music, but from her performance in the Superbowl I can definitely say she's hot AND talented.
|By Awesome (Awesome) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 02:48 am: Edit|
speaking of race.... would you guys know what I am? I'm middle-eastern and I'm not sure which of the three groups of races I fall under (caucasoid/mongoloid/negroid). In case you don't know/forgot how a middle-easterner looks like, here's my description:
-black, wavy/slightly curly hair. few natural brown highlights, but they're hard to detect unless you're close
-lightmedium brown skin, i guess.... or maybe it's tan. it's definitely not white.
-somewhat flat nose; small, circular (not oval) nostrils
that's about it. so, what am i? people tend to think i'm a mix of a lot of stuff. i *am* mediterranean, so sometimes people think i'm part greek/italian/whatever. What do you think?
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 08:48 am: Edit|
I know kind of how you feel.... I am Irish, Native and Scottish but because of my tanned skin and dark hair with white features I have been called everything from Native, Italian to spanish... one person asked me if I was a gypsy...
|By Zantedeschia (Zantedeschia) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 09:23 am: Edit|
Just because Beyonce can crawl around and hump the floor while wearing practically nothing does not make her talented or hot. That's appealing to the basest of human desires. Sick
|By Justice (Justice) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:20 am: Edit|
davidrune have you ever seen Colin Quinn's Tough Crowd on Comedy Central? There's often interesting (albeit obscene) dialogue about black pride and interracial affairs.
I completely agree with you about the "media==>caucasian features." Just turn on MTV and look at the "black" women. Look at the rap videos. The ones they focus on (as in zoom in on) are almost always the fair-colored ones. Look at Lala. Vanessa Milano (ok i'm not quite sure what she is). I don't think I've EVER seen a black with clear African bone structure on mass media--at least not the kind I see when I drive through ghettos in Philadelphia or Boston.
There are certainly caucasian features in the faces of black women in media. As an artist/portraitist and having known many, I can assure you that there are lip/forehead/hair variations that are typical of certain races. It's just a fact of life.
I bet if I took a picture of Beyonce or Halle and photoshopped it to white, an unknowing bystander wouldn't realize what I did. Now..if I had taken a lady from the Central African Republic or from an ethnic enclave, it'd look pretty ghoulish...
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit|
What's an African bone structure? What do you call a Causasian feature?
|By Neo (Neo) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit|
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 02:35 pm: Edit|
Poison_Ivy: If you read my previous posts, you will understand what Justice means. And you are trying to say that just because Beyonce has a "big butt" she has a black female's body. Well, that's a whole different can of worms that I don't agree with.
Justice: Je suis d'accord.
|By Neo (Neo) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit|
I love how people insert little bits of foreign languages after completing post after post in English.
Je ne aime pas cet.
|By Meth5400 (Meth5400) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit|
In response to the original posts, I think that when black men find success, there are definitely more than a few who will begin to date/marry women (Tiger Woods is one such case....as well the former Bull Ron Harper-who I believe was actually quoted saying "i wan wann wanna white white women" (that was my feeble attempt at artculating his lisp). However, there are some men (Denzel is the first to come to mind) who have indeed found love in black women. I think that this used to be a problem more prevelant that it is now...but hopefully is slowly decreasing
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:55 pm: Edit|
Neo: Je k'a so inkan mi.
|By Girlforever101 (Girlforever101) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:03 pm: Edit|
If you look at earlier pictures of Halle Berry, you'll see that she had a much flatter nose.
I wonder how far she would've gotten in her career if she hadn't made her nose more Anglican.
|By Neo (Neo) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:12 pm: Edit|
Wow. You know, the thing is, I actually think she looks prettier in the "before" picture. It's a lot more natural, at least to my eyes.
Davidrune: Âû - äóðàê
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit|
|By Neo (Neo) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 11:54 pm: Edit|
Haha...I tried to write back in Russian, but I don't think CC responds well to Cryllic.
And I have no idea of what you wrote up there -- it looked like a combination of french and japanese :^)
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit|
Try to say it outloud.
It'll come to you.
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 10:01 am: Edit|
In response to the original question:
That is a sweeping generalization to make. Black men who prefer white women or even date white women when they reached "elevated social status" are not the majority. That is what the media wants you to believe. I know alot of men (white, black, asian, middle-eastern) who exclusively date black women so that they can feel more accepted into the hip-hop culture, or in their native cultures, marrying a black women is a sign of prominence and/or marrying outside of one's race is forbidden. It is important that women not allow others to objectify them for whatever reasons. I was involved several relationships with guys of other races and cultures (i.e. white, pakistani, somalian, vietnamese, Italian) and even with the black guys, it primarily based on making a political statement or proving something to society. The relationships didn't work because it was not based on our appericiation of each other and although the relationship failed, it made our friendships stronger. The media definitely upholds a white standard of beauty, and thus black women with "white" features are obviously accepted more than black women who look more "African". Although, that has never been a problem for me.
Beyonce looks an average Afro-American woman to me, I don't understand the debate over her ethnicity. Even though she is beautiful and seems like a nice person, I believe she plays alot to the "tragic mulatto" black women stereotype, who is sexually aggressive and has this exotic almost barbiac allure about her; the wild blonde hair and emphasis on her backside proves this. I think her parents do act like pimps in a way they create or uphold this negative image in exchange for fortune and fame.
|By Neo (Neo) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:16 am: Edit|
David -- ditto with the Russian. It's quite easy when you think about it.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:00 pm: Edit|
Entropy: This isn't about whether it's a problem with you or not. This is about the poor black girl who was born with african features and feels that she is ugly because of that. If you think that Beyonce is the average African-American, then the media's ploy has definetly succeeded. Beyonce is anything but the average african american. All you need is to enter the black community in order to find out that Beyonce is the exception not the rule.
Neo: It was yoruba.
|By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit|
It is the fact of being in the entertainment industry (which, sadly, seems to dictate the minds of many men and women) that no matter what "color" the entertainer is, he or she will be objectified. Just because Beyonce or Halle Berry happen to be African-American does not mean they will be an exception. Currently, having a "big butt" sells sex-wise when it comes to African American women in "rap videos" and similar entertainment. Sometimes I get the feeling from a few posters that black women who do not look like Alek Wek or have similar "African" features are 'selling out' in the media. But it is a long-established fact that all races sell out in the media, and all young girls, not just African Americans, suffer from this- whether it is wanting to be whiter, tanner, taller,skinnier, blonder, curvier, etc. etc. etc.
Similarly, men and women often date who they think is the most attractive. Beauty is an important factor for most people in choosing someone to date (though it is usually combined with other factors.) Like I said before, the entertainment buisness propels many people's ideas of attractiveness in both the opposite or same sex. This, combined with a person's environment, creates a very common formula that determines who a person will find attractive/date.
So, the foremost problem is the susceptibility of all types of people, not just African-American women, to the entertainment industry, which is chiefly concerned with making money, usually by selling sex.
|By Neo (Neo) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit|
Of course, it's a problem that affects people of all backgrounds, and not just African-American women, but that's the group of people we're discussing at the moment.
However, it's a bit simple to imply that all 'colors' are objectified equally, because that simply isn't true. Minorities are objectified to resemble the caucasian image we've come to see in magazines, movies, and television. It's never the other way round. You don't see "white girls" on MTV and what not trying to look "hispanic". You don't see girls in grade schools and high schools trying to act like black girls, because that's not what the media defines as attractive.
Off the top of his or her head, the average american teen could probably list off somewhere between half and a dozen young actors/actresses s/he finds attractive. You just have to take your pick. For example: Natalie Portman, Katie Holmes (and in the over 30 category), Julia Roberts. But I, or most other people in this country, would be hard pressed to even *name* more than a handful of *minority* actors and actresses in leading roles. For black females, once you get past Hally Berry, Lisa Bonet, and Beyonce, who can't really act, the list thins out dramatically. For Asian Americans, it's basically Lucy Liu (and most recently), Kirsten Kreuk. For african-american males, you've got denzel, will smith, morgan freeman, and sidney portier. Maybe Chris Tucker. After that...again, there isn't much left to look at outside the caucasian sphere, where the list is practically endless. Asian males -- most teens stop at Jackie Chan, maybe Jet Li. Is that because minority actors and actresses are less memorable than their white counterparts? Is it because they just can't act as well? Of course not. But hands down, the image coming out of Hollywood, and the image directors and producers want to get on the big screen, doesn't cater much to people outside a certain range of complexions. That's why.
So I'd say the foremost problem is the media's propogation of a stereotypical caucasian female image which the vast majority of the country, black, white, or "other", can't possibly hope to achieve.
|By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:06 pm: Edit|
Neo, the image that is being portrayed can't be defined as caucasian- Very few people that I know of actually look like the airbrushed types in the media. We both agree that there is an "ideal" look at this moment, like in the other decades, but just saying "caucasian" is also too "simple."
There are actually many girls who, by your definition, "act hispanic" and "black," if you mean in the stereotypically-dressed way (I believe it's ignorant to say girls 'act' like a race, but we can discuss that another time.) A year or two ago, the ideal look was Jennifer Lopez. A few months ago, when her album came out, this thread's famed Beyonce was 'the look.' How do I know? Check in Vogue, where a decade ago there were few black models. Now, Vogue constantly talks about Beyonce, and features just as many black models as white models. Currently, beauty is much more forgiving then say, in the 80s, where blonde hair and blue eyed Cheryl Tiggs was the ideal.
I'm not sure of why you can name 3 black actresses, but it has to do with your interest- if you were more interested in black actresses, you could find them. At this moment, Halle Berry and Beyonce are being named very often in this thread. Why? Because they are the most one of the most touted women in the ENTIRE entertainment industry.
It is true that in the past, African Americans have been underappreciated and far too scarce in the movies and entertainment. Also, it is much more difficult to become a successful black actress than a white one. However, if you take a look around you, you will find many 'white girls' who would like to look more like the current celebrated black actresses. I am also sure you can find black girls who would like to look like today's white actresses.
I don't see any stereotypical caucasian image. Arguably, the ideal girl to many people is not too short or tall, thin, has medium-sized breasts and butt, full lips, and smallish nose. I doubt this has anything to do with being caucasian. I know this because I observe what's going around me. At least where I live, these features, who in combination make a very small part of both the black, white, or other population, are equally celebrated.
|By Neo (Neo) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 06:04 pm: Edit|
Okay, first paragraph: I'd say that image being portrayed can, and *is* described as caucasian, because that's the primary medium of propogating that image. It isn't too simple, because it's simply the truth.
2. Yes, I'm talking about the stereotypical image of a black/white girl. That's what we're talking about here -- stereotypes and images we're bombarded with on a daily basis. I'm sure you knew what I meant. But in response to what you said about J-Lo being "the look" earlier, and now Beyonce being "the look", then you're making it even more obvious about we're talking about. These ladies both fit the same look. And that look isn't anywhere near what the average hispanic/african-american female looks like. That's why it's deceptive. That's why it's not the norm.
3. It doesn't have to do with interest in the example I gave above. I quoted "the average american teenager". If you can name three dozen african-american actresses off the top of your head, that's good for you, but you wouldn't represent all but the smallest minority of teenagers in this country. People -- whether adults, teens, or kids -- on average, can't name a great deal of minority figures in the acting scene because there simply aren't many at the mainstream level. You rarely see minority figures leading blockbuster movies -- just look at the 10-top grossing movies of this year alone. The industry touts a select few, and ignores the rest. I'm not here to argue over whether that's fair or not, but that's the way it's been for a very long time.
4. These 'white girls' you speak of would like to look like the celebrated 'black actresses' because the black actresses already have "the look". If Halle Berry had short (like a boy) "nappy" black hair, charcoal-dark skin, and thick lips, do you think so many teenage girls would want to look like her? The image I just described is quite highly treasured in other countries, but it's not in style here. Beyonce and Halle both look mixed. Mixed is in.
Finally, we'll have to disagree on the "i don't see any stereotypical caucasian image" arguement, because there isn't really a point in either of us trying to convince the other. If you think the prized image in our society is that of a minority, then I respectfully think you're wrong.
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 07:41 pm: Edit|
Davidrune said: " All you need is to enter the black community in order to find out that Beyonce is the exception not the rule."
Could you elaborate on that? I still say Beyonce looks like an average light-skinned Afro-American woman. So does Halle Berry. Obviously, you have not stepped into the "black community". There are so many exceptions to "the rule", that there should really be no rule at all. If you believe that there is a rule, you have definitely fallen for the media's ploy.
Davidrune says: "this is about the poor black girl who was born with african features and feels that she is ugly because of that."
What does that have to do with "successful" black men dating outside of their race? That's a totally different issue. If this post is about having pity or being condescending towards the "poor black girl who looks black", you should have stated that in the original post. Most people have offered their own experiences and opinions on the matter, why can't I? On a previous post, you even encouraged others to offer their own thoughts on dating outside of their race and I did just that.
In a previous post, you stated that you were a black guy who never had a black girlfriend? You asked "Isn't that strange?". Then you create a post titled "Do Black Guys Prefer White Girls?" which makes the broad generalization that all black guys prefer white girls? What exactly are you trying to say or ask? Since you have never had a black girlfriend and seem so disturbed by it, why do you think that is? Does it have to do with the "poor black girl born with African features who feels she is ugly because of that"?
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit|
You have a perfect point Neo. Now, I know I have some mulatto thing going on. But I don't look like it. I admit, I always envied Thandie Newton for her half British blood. I always wanted Alicia Keys so soft, not nappy hair. I know I would feel better if I had a bigger European blood percentage.
I noticed how much the media does have an influence on beauty. In Delias.com, notice how the only minority model (besides Hispanic) is a black girl. She looks like the typical girl in those "Feed The Children" tv shows. Unbelievably dark, with shaved nappy hair. Most of us would be quick to say that she is ulgy. But technically, if you look deeper at her, you would notice that she has an amazing bone structure most models would envy.
I also recall my friend saying why she would date a black guy because "some blacks are so black, they look shiny." ??? Maybe, it's just because their skin is oily. Mixed, is in. It's better to have that ethnic look but with a bit of whiteness added it.
|By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:11 pm: Edit|
Neo you seem to be talking about the "norm" of African American women. Please enlighten me to what that is.
You keep on saying that many women don't resemble Beyonce. Really, in what way? That she doesn't have the coarse hair that you are claiming is the norm? She does. That she has blonde hair extentions? Many people have hair extentions. That she has a curvy body? Many do. I'm not sure what you're talking about, do you? Are you saying that all black women MUST look like some image of your idea of what is African? Stop making your own stereotypes (respectfully.)
|By Caramelkisses06 (Caramelkisses06) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit|
I've been reading this post for a while and I just wanted to toss in an idea, so here goes:
As far as there being a "norm" as to what African-American women look like, I can assure everyone that there isn't one. We come in all shapes and sizes, with none seeming to be more prevalent than the others. And as far as skin color goes, African American women range from something like cafe au lait to caramel to mocha to dark chocolate and any other tasty shades of tan/brown you can imagine.
I think the "norm" that Neo is referring to (thick lips, "nappy"/tightly curled or coarse hair, "charcoal black"/very dark skin) is speaking more of women of pure African descent (please correct me if I'm wrong) than of African-*American* women who tend not to be purely African at all. In a large number of cases, the legacy of what it is to be ethnically "African-American" actually means having a white ancestor or two or even more(because of mixing during slavery - consensual or otherwise), and quite often having Native American blood as well. The mix of the 3 different ethnicities has left African-American women with a collection of features that is more varied than anyone can imagine, a large number of which features are decidedly UN-African, so much so that stories circulate on how African-Americans are at times rejected as unattractive in Africa because African and African-American features are generally DIFFERENT.
So if we HAD to choose a NORM for what African-American women look like, Beyonce would be it, Halle Berry would be, Vivica A. Fox, Angela Bassett, Whoopi Goldberg and almost any other African-American woman you can name would fit the "norm," because like most African-*American* women, yes they're obviously black and have a considerable amount of African ancestry, but it's also readily and visibly apparent that something else got mixed in there somewhere.
|By Ella05 (Ella05) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 09:48 pm: Edit|
So we've labeled the standards of beauty as "white." A ridiculous concept, since caucasions don't match it anymore than anyone from another race. Besides, white is a more fragmented concept than any other race; I personally have the Italian nose, middle-eastern hair, and olive skin...I'm "white."
Really, imagine if "asian" (or do I say "yellow" if we continue with this color=race nonsense?) was the style. The look would be so much more limited. "White" is probably the broadest category of looks. Any other race and even more people would be unhappy with their looks.
Actually, in surveys of thousands of people, they always chose the more symmetrical face as being more beautiful. I can't remember whose research this is, but there's a lot about it on the internet. It's one of the ways they choose supermodels, believe it or not. Therefore, this whole debate is based on an urban legend. We value beauty that is symmetrical, not "white".
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 10:26 pm: Edit|
Poision Ivy... wow.
|By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit|
I agree with Caramel and Ella
|By Hzjames (Hzjames) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:38 am: Edit|
"I think Lucy Liu is not representative of the typical Asian woman at all, her feature are pretty Caucasian as well."
What? How, Luci Liu is a typical east asian female.....I don't see anyway how she is caucasian looking.
|By Gfjigi (Gfjigi) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 03:19 am: Edit|
she's not very pretty, but nice body
|By Awesome (Awesome) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 04:01 am: Edit|
Beyonce and Halley Berry don't look "white" because they were born that way. Obviously, their hair isn't natural, and Halley's nose is fake. I might sound naive (sorry, I haven't researched this,) but I really do think that Halley and Beyonce would look much more "African" if they weren't on TV - in other words, if they weren't fake.
" personally have the Italian nose, middle-eastern hair, and olive skin...I'm "white."
What do you mean by "middle-eastern" hair? There *is* no middle-eastern hair: It can range from dark to light, coarse to fair, etc. Can you clarify, maybe?
I really feel honored to be a part of a community like this which doesn't take what the media shows or says as fact. I'm glad some of us think and I'd love to meet people in college like you.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 08:42 am: Edit|
CaramelKisses: Whoopi Goldberg and Halle Berry do not have the same features. If anything Whoopie has more "african" features than "caucasian" features. Whoopi Goldberg would have to be an exception, but she has had to make up for her lack of "looks" with immense amounts of talents. She is probably one of the most talented black actresses out there, but she is not quite as succesful as the lookers like "Halle Berry" because she is not as "beautiful."
Entropy: Err... Are you accusing me of changing the subject topic? If so... welcome the real world, subjects often change. We started talking about black prefering white girls, then we progressed to interracial dating, then we went back to the media's influence on the concept of beauty. I was just maneuvering the topic so that we would have an interesting discussion. We could have started on black guys prefering white girls, and then progressed to
why Hitler should have won World War II.
|By Caramelkisses06 (Caramelkisses06) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit|
"Whoopi Goldberg and Halle Berry do not have the same features."
That was my point ... I said that basically all African-American women everywhere are the "norm" because as a whole, African-American women have a variety of different looks that can be considered normal or common overall.
|By Caramelkisses06 (Caramelkisses06) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:47 pm: Edit|
"Beyonce and Halley Berry don't look "white" because they were born that way. Obviously, their hair isn't natural, and Halley's nose is fake. I might sound naive (sorry, I haven't researched this,) but I really do think that Halley and Beyonce would look much more "African" if they weren't on TV - in other words, if they weren't fake."
With all due respect ... yes, you do sound a little bit naive. Halle Berry's nose job barely made a noticeable difference (check www.awfulplasticsurgery.com to look at side-by-side photos), and Beyonce hasn't done anything but straighten her hair. I'm sure you don't think that African-American women on TV are the only ones running around with straightened hair ... It's actually quite common, probably more so than leaving one's hair unaltered. Not to mention that some African-American women have hair that's NATURALLY not "nappy" anyway and is actually more wavy than anything else. And neither Halle Berry nor Beyonce did anything to make their skin so light either ... that's just what they look like, it's how they were born, along with countless other African-American women. So no, they would not look more "African" if they weren't in the public eye... they'd look almost exactly the same as they do now: JUST LIKE MANY OTHER AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEN.
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:41 pm: Edit|
You said: "Are you accusing me of changing the subject topic?"
That's exactly what I am doing.
You Said: If so... welcome the real world, subjects often change.
Davidrune, welcome to the real world, where logical consistency goes a long way in solidifying your arguments. If we are having interesting and THOROUGH discussion which all intelligent discussions are, I would think that it would be important to NOT change the subject and stick to the original question that was asked, especially if you truly want a serious answer. Really this is not about going on tangents; this is about how you previously said to me that my comments were off subject. You took one or two sentences I wrote and disregarded the rest of my post. I am still waiting for a clarification of why you felt that way. I am simply trying to see the relevance of your arguments, and see where one relates to the other, because right now I see no true connection. You are not connecting your dots.
The original post was asking if there is an issue in regards to black men marrying outside of their race (particularly to white women), once they have reached an elevated social status and if there is any correlation between the European standards of beauty imposed by the media. Theoretically, of course, that's a given. But as I illustrated with my example, there could be other social or cultural reasons for dating outside of one's race, not solely because of the media's influence.
The gist of your post seems to be directed towards the social/biological debate of African beauty vs. European beauty, whose the exception and whose not. You tell me that “This is not about whether it is a problem for you or not. This is about the poor black girl who was born with African features and feels she is ugly because of that.” I ask again, my point being unchallenged. “What does that have to do with black men marrying outside of their race?” You have to understand that those are two totally different issues, with the exceptions that they are both psychological issues affecting a considerable number of blacks.
As an Afro-American woman, who looks “black”, I feel that I am in the perfect position to offer any information or insight that you are looking for. However,if you are looking for a poor self-loathing black girl who wants to hear violins, who complains of her shortage of love interests, her lowly social status and desperate attempts to assimilate into American society, then I cannot tell you what you want to hear.
Thank you, Caramel. I appreciate your posts. Quite frankly, I am tired of people making condescending, patronizing threads like this to sensationalize the negative images and ideas that are attached to black beauty and black womanhood in this society.
|By Caramelkisses06 (Caramelkisses06) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:20 pm: Edit|
Entropy - Thanks for agreeing with me. As a fellow Afro-American young woman I can really understand where you're coming from about being sick of the condescending attitudes often shown toward black women.
"Oh ... poor little black girl ... she must feel so awful about herself, trying so hard to look like the pretty little white girl over there ... she must think she'll never measure up." It's thought processes like that that are the real problem ... other people feeling sorry for black women because they ASSUME that our self-esteem must be negatively affected by the fact that we aren't white. When someone makes an assumption like that, who do you think really has the problem with black women's appearances? The woman who's comfortable in her own skin, or the condescending onlooker who insists she must not be?
The truly sad part is that the main person on this thread who seems to be having a difficult time viewing African-American women's looks as beautiful is Davidrune ... who said:
"I am a black guy and I have never had a black girlfriend, and I find that strange."
Really? I don't find that strange at all, considering statements like
"This is about the poor black girl who was born with african features and feels that she is ugly because of that."
Honestly, more than anything it seems like YOU might be the one who thinks she's ugly, and maybe the fact that you've never had a black girlfriend is a reflection of the media's success in brainwashing YOU into thinking that African features are something to be ashamed of. I'm sure I can speak for the majority of African-American women when I say that, with African features, Caucasian features, Native American features all mixed into us, or NOT mixed into us, we view ourselves just fine. There've been actual articles written that offer proof of and discuss the fact that African-American women are considerably less likely to suffer from negative self-image than Caucasian women. So for the most part, the "poor black girl" you were so kind as to take pity on doesn't exist.
In the future, perhaps you should concern yourself less with how black women view themselves (as beautiful or not). Instead, turn the mirror on yourself and start looking deeper into how YOU view black women. The one who seems to be overly concerned with and affected the idea of the media's gloriication of Caucasian features is YOU.
|By Caramelkisses06 (Caramelkisses06) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:30 pm: Edit|
Oh, and to get back to the topic that was brought up in the original post -
"If there a sense of success, if a black guy SUCCEEDS in going out with a white girl?"
You just answered your own question. Now let me pose one of my own ... do YOU feel successful?
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:31 pm: Edit|
I was originally curious to see the effects of the media on standards of beauty. It was actually a question that was posed to me by my sister and I was curious to find out other's opinions.
My original question was more to find out if, black girls with caucasian features are more accepted as beautiful than those without.
And after my original question, there were many posts on such things.
The African girl with african features has a lot to do with marrying outside our race. I mean, our society is being conditioned to believe that Beyonce is a beautiful black woman and women that look like Alek wek and Whoopi Goldberg are not. If you don't believe me, then name another model who looks like them.
I am not looking for self-loathing, I am looking for an insightful discussion on this concept.
If you honestly believe that there is no negative consequence on this societal brainwashing, then you are wrong.
I am not really in the position to say what is beautiful and what is not beautiful. As well, I certaintly didn't want to incite your anger. But you only have to look at people like Michael Jackson, who's face has whittled down until there seems to be absolutely no trace of any black features. His nose has whittled down to a stuble.
The amount of women in Jamaica that lighten their skin so that they can look light-skin has sky-rocketed. Even, in Nigeria I saw my friends of about 13 and 14, attempting to lighten their skin.
That article talks about how the incident of african-americans seeking nose jobs has QUADRUPLED since 1999.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit|
|By Caramelkisses06 (Caramelkisses06) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit|
The 1st article you presented goes AGAINST everything you've been trying to say.
The article states:
"Dr. Shan Baker, President of the AAFPRS, stated in a recent press release that America's single standard of beauty is no longer the blonde hair blue eyed cover girl. These images according to Baker have been replaced by images of beauty within each individual minority group that make up this country. Patients want to look their best in their own ethnic groups," said Baker."
"Women of color are having cosmetic surgery for some of the same reasons Caucasian woman do: "to look younger, fresher and feel better overall."
TRANSLATION: Black women aren't having plastic surgery to "look more white" because society says black women are ugly, black women (and all other women) are having plastic surgery because society says fat people and people with wrinkles are ugly. And the article clearly shows that the most popular procedures among women of color have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with trying to meet a Caucasian standard of beauty.
And as for your mention of Nigerian and Jamaican skin bleaching - that's all well and good but those are completely different cultures. If you want to discuss African-American women, then do that. You want to discuss African women, do that ... but we cannot all be lumped together under the title of "black" because our cultures, customs, and STANDARDS OF BEAUTY are just TOO DIFFERENT.
And as for the 2nd article, it first deals with breast reduction that the woman had for MEDICAL REASONS. It's quite common among all ethnicities for women with breasts that cause back pain and other problems to have them reduced in size. Their reasons have nothing to do with trying to appear more "Caucasian."
In the rest of it, yes it states that minorities are beginning to have more plastic surgery, but it states SEVERAL TIMES "Most people want to retain their ethnic identity." I'm really failing to understand how these articles illustrate your point. They imply more than anything the more minorities are having plastic surgery because A) They can afford it, and B) It's becoming an integral part of popular culture (Extreme Makeover, etc.). Neither of these articles even IMPLIES that minorities who get plastic surgery are doing so in order to live up to a Caucasian standard of beauty.
|By Arthurd (Arthurd) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:07 am: Edit|
"But you only have to look at people like Michael Jackson..."
Michael Jackson should certainly not be taken as the archetype or typical representation of black people, or ANY other group of people. He is rather unique in his own right.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:19 am: Edit|
Arthurd: I shouldn't have used Michael Jackson as an archetype.
The second article was meant to illustrate that the incidence of women changing the shape of their nose has increased. The doctor also briefly describes skin lightening procedures.
"For instance, McCafferty explained that African-Americans tend to want to narrow the bridge of their nose and reshape the tip without making it pointed... "
"As for skin-lightening products, McCafferty said there are various chemical peels and bleaching products that can help rid the skin of various kinds of brown spots and make it clearer..."
I am not saying that black women trying to look more caucasian is a bad thing or a good thing. I am only saying that it is here.
In the first article, although it expresses a different opinion from mine. I don't believe in suppressing other opinions. But I found some interesting quotes as well...
"Often times African Americans tend to criticize other members of their race for going under the knife and altering body parts that they are terribly uncomfortable with. They assume that they are selling out their culture or even erasing their ethnocentric background and trying to look more white..."
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit|
LOL. This feels like a research project.
Alright, everyone who wants to state an opinion must first read this article:
THIS IS A PLEA. This woman has articulately expressed my point of view. Something, that I have clearly failed to do.
|By Girlforever101 (Girlforever101) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 10:56 am: Edit|
Davidrune, interesting article.
Although, when she talked about the black woman from Nebraska associating herself with white beauty standards, I could not agree.
I spent most of my life in a predominately white area, still do for the most part. I never felt like I had to match the white standards of beauty. I believe that I must've rationalized at a young age that I'll never look like one of the Caucasian models in Vogue, so why should I bother trying. I like who I am, I would change a few things, but for me personally.
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:01 am: Edit|
LOL... Davidrune, aren't you black also? Blacks going against blacks... whoa... this has become hilarious.
How do you get your skin bleached anyways?
See... I was considering a chemical blue peel, to make my skin color has its natural "untanned" tone.
As a fellow young mulatto Haitian woman, I dislike when people take pity for me and my race. I'm glad I'm black, I'm glad I have a butt. I'm glad I have thick hair which all the others envy because it can be cornrowed. And if you truly are a black male, your perspective will be different than ours because most Causasian girls are attracted to black males these days (aka. Usher, Lil'Romeo, Pharrel).
You have made very good points on this thread but before make a generalized statement look outside the box.
|By Oliviakang (Oliviakang) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit|
i don't know how much the topic has changed in the last 20 replies...
I'm asian (korean) and I'm always attracted to guys of others races (my tastes run closer to the "tall dark handsome" side of things) but I always end up with my biggest crushes on asian guys (crushes being all encompassing and not just based on physical features because -and maybe this is because i don't see enough????- i've never met/seen an asian guy that i thought was "hot"... only cute)
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit|
PoisionIvy, with all due respect, one of your earlier post epitomized self-hatred. Let me reply to the parts of the post that really disturbed me.
PoisionIvy said: "Now, I know I have some mulatto thing going on. But I don't look like it."
Welcome to the club. The majority of the Afro-American population is at least 25% European, Native American or other, and they have distinct African features. Matter of fact, one of my cousins who is often times mistaken as an African has more European percentage than I do, about 40%. He has incredibly dark skin, a broad nose, coarse hair, and is very tall. I only have about 30% and my skin is considerably lighter than his.
PoisionIvy said: "I admit, I always envied Thandie Newton for her half British blood. I always wanted Alicia Keys so soft, not nappy hair. I know I would feel better if I had a bigger European blood percentage."
That is very unsettling, it sounds like something out of a racist cartoon. Why do you hold whites in such high regard that "you would feel better" if you had more white ancestry? Those are deep psychological issues that you are going to have struggle with if you TRULY want to love yourself. You can't expect people to respect you as a dignified human being, saying crazy things like that. It is natural for you to agree with Davidrune, because you exemplify the very type of "self-loathing black girl" he is talking about.
PoisionIvy said: "I noticed how much the media does have an influence on beauty. In Delias.com, notice how the only minority model (besides Hispanic) is a black girl."
Your point being?
PoisionIvy: "She looks like the typical girl in those "Feed The Children" tv shows. Unbelievably dark, with shaved nappy hair. Most of us would be quick to say that she is ulgy."
That is pure ignorance. While I do not a big fan of cultural relativism (primarily because it hinders moral and intellectual progress), I guess I have to respect your opinion. The kids on "Feed The Children" are gorgeous, but they are physically worn out from malnutrition, physical and emotional abuse, and their desolate environments but that's a different issue. I see great beauty when I look at them. Many people, including those with lighter skin would kill to have her smooth, ebony, clear and glowing complexion, not to mention her healthy hair, toned body, and flawless bone structure. I know of her, and she is very intelligent. She is originally from Africa, and I think has graduated from the University of Florida since being in Delias' catalog.
PoisionIvy said: "It's better to have that ethnic look but with a bit of whiteness added it.
I am extremely sorry you feel this way. I am not trying to pick on you, but I just want you to be aware of how you are putting yourself out there. Don't let people make examples out of you. Don't be anyone's fool. Don't give any human being that much power over you. It's extremely dangerous. Being a haitian, you of all people should know this.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:33 pm: Edit|
what exactly is flawless bone structure?
|By Bbstlchi (Bbstlchi) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:53 am: Edit|
As for the african american girl feeling sorry for herself....i am not surprised at all. The media glorfies girls with colored eyes, nice smooth (preferrebly blond) hair,thin body and small lips. Any average american girl lacking these features would definitely feel sorry for herself( and hence would spend countless money and time changing her features through expensive and unhealthy makeovers and surgeries). Most american girls( unlike people over here at CC) arent just elite and smart enough to find the beauty within themselves and to stop judging themselves by what other people think. On top of that statistics show that black guys are more likely to date/marry outside their race than any other ethnic male group.
|By Indcat (Indcat) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:14 pm: Edit|
Indian girls are the best!!!!!!!!!!
Innocent Exotic Pretty Cute Quiet.....
Thats how i like my girls.
|By Oliviakang (Oliviakang) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:15 pm: Edit|
yes. all indian girls are innocent and exotic and pretty and cute and quiet.
as long as we're talking about how people differ from one another, can we at least acknowledge that people inside each race aren't the same?
|By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:59 pm: Edit|
"as long as we're talking about how people differ from one another, can we at least acknowledge that people inside each race aren't the same? "
very true, although theres a preset 'look' for each race/ethnicity, it can hardly be used to judge every person. about the plastic surgury thing too i know alot of asian girls/guys that are getting plastic surgery, its true some do want to look more white and cauasian but others simply want to play up the feature they alread y have. some of the ideals regarding beauty in the asian race go back centruries wayyyyyyyyyyy before they even knew the existence of caucasians.
|By Justice (Justice) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit|
Ever read The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison? It's about, among other things, the feeling of being unloved and inadequate in a young black girl who wishes she had blue eyes. She won the Nobel Prize in Lit for it.
The experience of black disillusionment with appearance, esp. yearning to be white, is a well-documented phenomenon in literature and life. I'm not black, but I can imagine that such a viewpoint is still fairly pervasive in the African-American psyche. The fact that opinions such as PoisonIvy's exist should stand as a testament to that truth.
Dwerbowy, it's true that people want to alter appearance for different reasons. I completely agree and do not assert that "everyone wants to be white." Nonetheless, we can all say whatever we want, but being blind is the only way to ignore the truth that nearly EVERY black female on television is fairer and more removed from negroid features than the average black.
As another example--ever watch that Outkast video "The Love Below"? Notice how Big Boi and Andre 3000 are some extremely dark males who are fixated on a near-white girl. Unless the love interest is actually a singer, you'd be hardpressed to find a dark-skinned female.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:24 am: Edit|
Good points Justice. I've read the "Bluest Eye". It was so sad when the girl got raped.
I know you'd like to thank your don't stank
But lean a little bit closer
See that roses really smell like boo-boo
Yeah, roses really smell like boo-boo
P.S. I think the song you're refering to is called Roses.
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:53 pm: Edit|
Justice Said:Ever read The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison? It's about, among other things, the feeling of being unloved and inadequate in a young black girl who wishes she had blue eyes. She won the Nobel Prize in Lit for it.
I am very familar with Toni Morrison and "The Bluest Eye". Every one should read it. The message no only applies to Afro-Americans, but people in general.
Justice Said: "The experience of black disillusionment with appearance, esp. yearning to be white, is a well-documented phenomenon in literature and life. "
I never said it wasn't.
Justice said: I'm not black, but I can imagine that such a viewpoint is still fairly pervasive in the African-American psyche. The fact that opinions such as PoisonIvy's exist should stand as a testament to that truth.
Exactly. I said that she exemplified the "self-loathing" black girl davidrune was talking about.
Justice said: "I completely agree and do not assert that "everyone wants to be white."
That was really the only agrument I was trying to make. I'm glad someone acknowledges this.
Justice said: "Nonetheless, we can all say whatever we want, but being blind is the only way to ignore the truth that nearly EVERY black female on television is fairer and more removed from negroid features than the average black."
Justice said: "As another example--ever watch that Outkast video "The Love Below"? Notice how Big Boi and Andre 3000 are some extremely dark males who are fixated on a near-white girl. Unless the love interest is actually a singer, you'd be hardpressed to find a dark-skinned female."
I haven't saw the video yet, but that is pretty much the scenario in most videos. Outkast has made some videos where there have been dark-skinned Afro-American females portrayed as the "objects of affection", but it really doesn't matter who is being wooed in this videos, because that's all the women are depicted as, objects.
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:58 pm: Edit|
That girl is very light skinned...
Anyways... about my previous comment... just forget it...
And to add, I'm not self loathing.
|By Appliedmath (Appliedmath) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:00 pm: Edit|
Davidrune: Sometimes I think you are 100% white. In a good way.
|By Awesome (Awesome) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:06 pm: Edit|
I think David is a good person.
|By Valpal (Valpal) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit|
Explain "100% white. In a good way".
|By Shortcakefairy (Shortcakefairy) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 04:15 am: Edit|
I'm half asian half caucasian...i'm a product of a mixed relationship and love it... so go interracial, intercultural relationships =)!
in fact, the whole idea of race is stupid in the first place.
On a superficial level, I know a few half black/half white girls and guys, and they tend to be very easy to the eye and gorgeous!
|By Appliedmath (Appliedmath) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:14 pm: Edit|
Val, you do understand what I mean.
|By Valpal (Valpal) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit|
Nope. Sorry Appliedmath, I'm afraid I don't.
|By Nanaama725 (Nanaama725) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:31 pm: Edit|
Ok, well I thought I'd add my two cents. I am a pure African female, my family is from Ghana, and I have never considered myself as a "poor self loathing" black girl. My skin is about the color of a Hershey's milk chocolate bar. However, ever since I was a really little girl, I wanted to be what some of you may call "pitch black" because that is what I consider to be extremely beautiful. Yet, I still love and embrace who I am because I see no reason not to. Many in my family are what you could call very successful, my dad, uncles, grandfather, etc. are all very educated with Ph.D's, etc,(for some reason, it's the men) and I have never seen them display the attitude that white women and fairer black women are more desirable. In fact, one day, my father was complaining about how there is this pressure for black women to look like white women with hair straightening, etc. and how he hates that, and prefers the natural black look and etc. etc. Although I thought he was totally off base the only way to make virgin black hair manageable when it is out of braids is to relax it. But anyway,I think that this sterotype is something that the media portrays more than anything. The only guy I ever dated was a Ghanaian, and that's because I felt like I had more in common with him, seeing that we both were raised in Ghanaian homes in an area where we are the slim minority. To me, relationships are based on the common interests you have with that person, not based on race. I've found that I am attracted to those who were raised like me and have experienced the same home culture. But you can find a good, moral upbringing anywhere. I would feel more comfortable with a Ghanaian just because(at least in my area) there is this bond between us, since we were raised to be mindful of America and also of our mother country. But I would have absolutely no problem dating someone of a different background, race, etc., just as long as they share the same values, etc.as me. It's absolute BS that in order for a black man to be successful, he needs to have a white woman. And Davidrune, why are you so fixated on the fact that you have never had a black girlfriend? You make it sound like it is your duty to find a black woman.
|By Davidrune (Davidrune) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit|
I'm not fixated on the fact that I've never had a black girlfriend.
In fact, I know why I have never had one. I live in a pre-dominantly white neighborhood. There are a couple of black girls... kinda fat. But that's a whole different story.
Anyways, I've gone out with persian girls, chinese girls and white girls.
But this discussion has really tapered off and I probably shouldn't have started something so controversial. Because people like Entropy seem unwilling to listen to other opinions without attacking others.
Perhaps what should be more important, would be how to change this image that the media is presenting. Or maybe, we should just accept that people will not be accepted until they have assimilated completely, both in features and culture.
Like I said, this post was the idea of my sister who is convinced that black guys can date white girls, while the frequency of black girls dating white guys is less.
|By Bbstlchi (Bbstlchi) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 06:53 pm: Edit|
hmmm....to put the finishing touch..yes i see a lot of black guy-white girl relationships on my campus....more than any other interracial relationships....on the other hand i have yet to see a white guy-black girl couple. So yes your sister is defnitely right about that. I really dont know the reason for this but i watched a show on BBC ( in uk 40% of african american men marry outside their race with a significantly less number of black girls marrying outside)on which black men gave the reason that white girls are easy( this was infact the title of the show) while black girls have too mch attitude.
Also anyone who denys the fact that white girls, in general are the most desired is an idiot. A white girl with preferrably blonde hair, blue eyes and a slim body is considered the ultimate beauty queen by the media.
|By Gracious95 (Gracious95) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 09:40 pm: Edit|
"in uk 40% of african american men marry outside their race"
If they're in the UK, then how are they African-American?
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit|
Wow… Yeah, let’s put the finishing touches on this thread because it is asinine and for the most part, has not facilitated any meaningful or ground-breaking discussion. Pay attention to the bold text, please...
In my earlier post, I explicitly stated: “The media definitely upholds a white standard of beauty, and thus black women with "white" features are obviously accepted more than black women who look more "African”.”
NO ONE has ever argued that there is not a white standard of beauty in society. The bulk of the controversy has been about if whether or not, ALL black women prescribe to these prototypes or feel the need to. Please read carefully, comprehension is very important. The answer is emphatically NO. Note: I did not say that there are not black women who do feel the need to bleach their skin, narrow their broad nose, or mutilate their bodies to fit the mold. No one has ever said that. Afro-American women on this board have rightfully asserted that they are confident in their beauty. There are many black women who feel this way, but the media tries to sensationalize and emphasize those who have a inferiority complex as a strategic means of devaluing and psychologically manipulating other black women. Davidrune and the others either cannot grasp this understanding or don’t want to.
Funny how this topic went from initially talking about “Black Men Preferring White Girls”, to the anatomy, physiology, psychological conditioning of black women. The “emotional/psychological” problems, or theorized “physical unattractiveness” of Black women are seen as the primary reasons why black men date outside of their race, while the inferiority complex of the black man who dates the white woman on the basis of “racial superiority” is not questioned.
As far as me attacking others who do not share my opinion, that is a bunch of BS. I have not personally attacked anyone, just challenged their opinions. This is apart of intelligent and stimulating conversation that quite frankly is very rare on college confidential, which further proves my theory that achieving so-called “academic excellence” within a Prussian model such as the American Educational System cannot be taken seriously. Last time, I checked, this website is called College Confidential, so I assumed that the people who frequent this board have aspirations of going to college or already attend college. If you do not encounter a similar situation in which your beliefs or opinions are disputed some time in your academic career, then your “high academic credentials” have failed to place you where you need to be. Instead of taking these objections to heart, at least try to acknowledge and respect them. That’s all I am asking. If you can’t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. I respectfully asked PoisionIvy why she felt so negatively about her African heritage and merely asked David rune to clarify and elaborate more on his arguments, because they didn’t make logical sense. (sigh…)
Furthermore, I am tired of acting like a damn expert on race on these boards, but I would be remiss if, as a black woman, I did not offer my perspective on such issues, because after all, I and other black women, particularly on this thread, ARE being examined through a microscope. It flatters me that I, out of all of the other people who have openly disagreed with Davidrune, am the only person he mentions. This lets me know I have done my job.
The subject in nature is controversial. Whenever you start a thread talking about anything having to do with race, you can expect about 100 messages +. It’s just the reality of living in a society that is obsessed with it.
|By Bbstlchi (Bbstlchi) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 01:26 am: Edit|
my bad...i meant british blacks
That was an excellent post entropy.I personally didnt want to give my own opiniono this subject coz i knew i would be attacked and hence i referred to the TV show and the opinions expressed in it.
|By Lilo21l (Lilo21l) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit|
what do u mean by white features
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 06:57 pm: Edit|
I like you, Nanaama725.
We need more people like you. I wish I could be more like you.
|By Nanaama725 (Nanaama725) on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit|
|By Entropy (Entropy) on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 09:36 am: Edit|
I'm glad PoisionIvy has found a positive role model.
|By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit|
Has anyone noticed how on mainstream American commercials, if there is a token black woman among the whites in the commercial, she
a) wears her hair in a natural state (afro)
b) has that curly but soft hair like Alicia Keys.
As a black female, it offends me because most of my black female friends straighten their hair. I also straighten my hair for various reasons. But none of them are to look "white."
When I see women like that on commercials, while I think their hair is fine, they don't represent mainstream black females (whom the majority still straighten their hair.) Not all of us prefer to wear our hair au natural.
|By Gfjigi (Gfjigi) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 03:19 pm: Edit|
straight hair is hot
|By Gracious95 (Gracious95) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 05:17 pm: Edit|
" Has anyone noticed how on mainstream American commercials, if there is a token black woman among the whites in the commercial, she
a) wears her hair in a natural state (afro)
b) has that curly but soft hair like Alicia Keys.
As a black female, it offends me because most of my black female friends straighten their hair. I also straighten my hair for various reasons. But none of them are to look "white." "
To add to letter b, those girls are usually extremely light-skinned, and they're probably like 90% white. I can see how that can be offensive, since that offends me too. I don't like how they try to pass off a girl like that as black, when they clearly aren't. Again, that would go back to saying that a black girl has to look white in order to be beautiful.
I don't mind letter a, and actually I like it. It shows that African hair is beautiful and acceptable. Also, while you do not straighten your hair to look "white," many black women do. If everyone were like you, then black women who straighten their hair wouldn't make fun of me and call me names because I choose to wear mine naturally. Since that isn't the case, I can assume that those women believe that straight hair is beautiful while African hair is ugly and unacceptable.
"When I see women like that on commercials, while I think their hair is fine, they don't represent mainstream black females (whom the majority still straighten their hair.) Not all of us prefer to wear our hair au natural."
I agree with that. They should put more black women who straighten their hair in commercials. But, I see this in the same way as a few other things. Like, I don't see many fat or ugly people on TV either. I see virtually no Asians or even that many dark-skinned people.
|By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 06:07 pm: Edit|
Trust me.. those afros are NOT natural. They look fluffy at all, plus Alicia is half white.
|By Megofou (Megofou) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit|
Hell, they don't even represent the mainstream WHITE people on TV. Seriously. Who really weighs 95 pounds, is six foot, and has perfect complexion?
TV is make believe all around.
|By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 08:11 pm: Edit|
Poison Ivy = I know, if my hair was in its natural state, it would be NAPPY. LOL
|By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit|
And sometimes, they may put someone in the commercials like Alek Wek (hey, no offense to anyone here) and say she is black and beautiful by American standards.
I have nothing against Alek Wek. It's great they are looking more on African beauty. However, as an African-American, i'm much lighter (still brown) and not as tall and "exotic-looking" like her. This goes the same for other blacks in this country who are mixed with Native American and European ancestry. Not all of us look Sudanese.
|By Gracious95 (Gracious95) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 08:22 pm: Edit|
" Hell, they don't even represent the mainstream WHITE people on TV. Seriously. Who really weighs 95 pounds, is six foot, and has perfect complexion?
TV is make believe all around."
So very true :oP
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