Go Team China!





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Discus: College Confidential Café: 2004 Archive: Go Team China!
By Hsun (Hsun) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

from a country that did not even participate in the olympics until the 70s, the delegates from china have garnered 23 gold medals as of today, tied with the almighty americans. i, as a chinese american, feel very proud and a surge of patroitism every time a gold medal is won by the chinese atheletes. this year china has performed by far the best in contrast to the past olympics. do you think it is even going to be greater in 2008?

By Vancat (Vancat) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:37 pm: Edit

yes but they lost in gymnastics didn't they? I must say that my parents and their friends were fairly pissed, "asian style."

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:49 pm: Edit

"I, as a chinese american, feel very proud and a surge of patroitism every time a gold medal is won by the chinese atheletes."

Er... Shouldn't you feel patriotic whenever the AMERICANS win something? Wtf is it with Asian pride?

By Cherrybarry (Cherrybarry) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:55 pm: Edit

The last post doesn't even deserve a response.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit

i'm gonna go with foreign boy on this one. if you want to live in this country, stop supporting communism***


***i know you're not really supporting communism. i just felt like saying that.

By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:10 pm: Edit

I don't get the whole patriotism thing from anyone winning a medal ... they just happen to live in the same country as you.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

i read this article once a while ago that said patriotism was really big in china because their religion or culture or something says that all chinese people are created from one soul, so technically they're all the same person, so when one person accomplishes something, it feels like everyone in the country has accomplished it, so everyone feel proud. it compared it to being part of one family, but i didn't really get that because everyone from the same family doesn't have the same the same soul. yea, come to think about it, the whole thing didn't make that much sense. any chinese person want to clear this up for me?

By Onnihs (Onnihs) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:30 pm: Edit

"Er... Shouldn't you feel patriotic whenever the AMERICANS win something? Wtf is it with Asian pride?"

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


GO SOUTH KOREA!

By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

That's called nationalism.

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:12 am: Edit

If you are an American citizen, and expect to be entitled to all the privileges that come with your citizenship, your allegiance should be towards America. Why would you feel 'patriotic' if any other country wins a medal?
Minorities expect the rest of America to treat them equally, but how can they make such demands if their patriotism is not directed towards the United States?

Btw, I am not an American citizen, and I'm Chinese.

By Peacefulchaos (Peacefulchaos) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:19 am: Edit

i am mad because they did not show the filipino's in the opening day ceremony parade. 13 filipino athletes are participating in the olympics and they only showed the first man holding the flag and DID NOT PAN OUT. WTF, some countries only had like 2 or 3 people and they still broadcasted the people.

grrr

p.s. i'm realy impressed that the chinese won so much though. congrats to them

btw, go america! i love michael phelps, haha

By Peacefulchaos (Peacefulchaos) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:19 am: Edit

(double post)

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:21 am: Edit

Lisasimpson,
What you are talking about sounds a lot like the idea behind communism. Everyone is equal, and is just part of the larger nation. As such, any individual success is just part of the country's overall acievements.

Yeah, I know that's not very clear, but I'm not so sure how to put it...

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:22 am: Edit

" If you are an American citizen, and expect to be entitled to all the privileges that come with your citizenship, your allegiance should be towards America."

"Minorities expect the rest of America to treat them equally, but how can they make such demands if their patriotism is not directed towards the United States?"

We root for a different country and suddenly we don't deserve our rights? Thats funny, I don't remember seeing that in the AMERICAN constitution.

Perhaps because you aren't an American citizen, you don't fully understand how things "work" in this country. Maybe in China, if you don't root for the home team, you become or are treated like a second-class citizen, but not here buddy.

By Spit (Spit) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:01 am: Edit

I'm an American citizen but that does NOT mean that by taking my citizenship test I agreed to suddenly forget about where my parents and I were born and raised (the country I spent 18 years of my life in) and NOT feel some sense of pride when my homeland country accomplishes something.

I do although hate when people choose to live in a country and then continue to think negatively about it,because afterall it was their choice to move here, obviously some good must have come from it in order for them to choose to migrate here. I dont think thats what the OP was doing though!

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:03 am: Edit

Nationalism is blase for many >2nd generation Americans. I probably have more in common with my dog than with most of the people who happen to co-inhabit my country.

By Takiusproteus (Takiusproteus) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:11 am: Edit

"I do although hate when people choose to live in a country and then continue to think negatively about it,because afterall it was their choice to move here, obviously some good must have come from it in order for them to choose to migrate here"

Yes... they came here to make MONEY. They'll hate the system, hate the culture, hate the politics, but they live here to make money.

Anyway... woot China team.

As for the "everyone in China is the same person" thing... you're sort of on the right track. The culture of China is built in such a way that everyone feels a sort of family comraderie. There is a very, VERY strong sense of nationalism and national pride (which contributes a lot to the urge to make their country seem and become strong, especially after colonial humiliation). Just to show you the difference between US and Chinese feelings:

If you need change for a dollar and ask a random man on the street (in China) you'd say, "Excuse me big brother, do you have change for a dollar?"

If you do the same (in the US) you'd say, "Excuse me Sir, do you have change for a dollar?"

Over there, they often address each other by these kinds of family names. Big brother, big sister, little sister, mother, father, etc. To people who are not actually immediately their relative.

(and instead of 'wassup yo' a common greeting would be 'had dinner yet?' XD)

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:19 am: Edit

oh that makes sense. except i didnt realize china had switched over to the dollar already. anyway, i heard that a lot of black people call each other bro and brother and sister, so are chinese people copying off black people? or are black people copying off chinese people?

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:16 pm: Edit

That's absolute nonsense, Lisasimpson. Having genealogical links with a certain country or certain ethnic group obviously means that there are threads that will always tie you to that country. No one kicks up a fuss when the Jewish lobby calls for a pro-Israel political stand, and in the very same manner, Australians of Greek origins were never criticised for supporting their country of origin, be it in the race to host the Olympics, or the recently concluded Euro 2004.

Alright you might say that the Holocaust heavily disadvantaged the Jewish population in the world, and I certainly agree. That's why anti-Semitism is the McCarthyism of today. Parallel to this situation, the Chinese can easily point to the restrictions placed on Chinese immigration pre-WW2 that disadvantaged them, and as a result caused that to band together and retain a certain sentiment for their homeland. There is nothing wrong with Jewish loyalty to Israel, and the same applies to Chinese allegiance to the PRC.

To directly address your post:

1. The dollar thing is just immature nitpicking, whether or not you admit it.

2. Why can't two separate cultures that have developed separately arrive at the same end? An example in context, the Chinese equivalent of Mom would be Ma, and despite the two sounding fairly similar they arised independently over millenia of development. Bringing the entire argument back to the your point, just because two different ethnic groups have similar intra-racial sibling-like relations, does not mean that one copied the other.

By Hhboyji (Hhboyji) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Anyone can cheer whomever the heck they want to cheer. Besides, Give people a break. You can't expect someone to become a "patriotic" american when they are from different countries. How about being patriot at both of them?

I've always thought that the word "American" allows you to be more than american, literally. The country itself was founded by immigrants. I don't think those immigrants gave up their loves and customs for the countries they were from, and became completely devoted to ONLY america.

Well, I don't know. GIve people a break. It's not like it's a war or something. I say GO EVERYONE!! YEAH!!

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit

"Yes... they came here to make MONEY. They'll hate the system, hate the culture, hate the politics, but they live here to make money."

And that's definitely one of the attitudes that serve to undermine US cohesion.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:09 pm: Edit

"They'll hate the system, hate the culture, hate the politics, but they live here to make money."

I've found that immigrants, because of what they didn't have at home, will often appreciate the system and politics more, not less. This is of course once they learn about it and really know what it is. Candi, I'm not sure if you are saying that the fact that immigrants come here to make money is what undermines US cohesion or the attitude that they do does. I'm gonna guess its the latter. :)

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:20 pm: Edit

And you would be right.

"I've found that immigrants, because of what they didn't have at home, will often appreciate the system and politics more, not less."

That's definitely true of my own parents, who are immigrants.

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Back to the OP

Yeah. Big surprise China's doing so well. The government grabs kids when they're knee high to a grasshopper and subsidizes their training. They do ping pong/basketball/gymnastics/diving whatever, FULL TIME. Add a population of 1.2 billion and you got a bona fide medal machine.

No, I'm not making this up.

They put our system to shame. Our kids actually have to go to school and only do sports after 3 pm, and parents gotta shell out the ducats for equipment and such.

Japan, on the other hand, is really impressive. Tiny country, captialist system, and they're kickin' ass!

Here's an article...

[http://www.etaiwannews.com/Sports/2004/08/24/1093316692.htm]

___________________________________________

China revving its sports machine in preparation for victorious Beijing 2008

2004-08-24 / Knight Ridder / By Frank Fitzpatrick
Earlier this year, the competitive antennae at the U.S. Olympic Committee's Colorado headquarters began to quiver.

China had hired 1,000 sports scientists, reports in to the USOC indicated, and its annual investment into a burgeoning athletic infrastructure had reached several hundred million dollars.

"The sports machine they are building will be the greatest the world has ever seen,'' said Darryl Seibel, the USOC's chief communications officer. "Beijing 2008 will be the most important Olympics ever.''

With 1.2 billion people, a burgeoning economy, and a political system that doesn't have to deal with dissenting voices, the Chinese are poised to conquer. Having made great strides as an economic power in the last decade, they have turned their attention to gold medals.

While the U.S. Olympic system permits permanent training for about 1,000 world-class athletes, China's programs can accommodate 17,000, said Jim Scherr, the USOC's chief executive. And its support system - coaches, trainers, psychologists and scientists - may be unmatched anywhere.

The week before the 2004 Games opened here, 1,200 sports scientists gathered for a conference in northern Greece. Three hundred of them were Chinese.

"I was told the Chinese were everywhere at the conference, running around, soaking it all up,'' said Jim Page, the USOC's managing director of sports performance. "They are incredibly determined, and they are putting all their resources into succeeding at the 2008 Games in Beijing.''

China's longstanding enmity with Taiwan caused the mainland to boycott every Olympics from 1952 to 1980. But since the Communist nation returned in 1984, its medal count has climbed steadily - menacingly, if you are the traditional Olympic powers, the United States, Russia and Germany.

In 1996 at Atlanta, China was fourth overall in the medal standings with 16 golds and 50 overall. Four years later, at Sydney, those totals were 28 and 59, as the Chinese passed Germany and finished third.

-They are a significant long-term threat to the United States' being the leading medal-winner,'' said Scherr. "With their population base and the methods they use to funnel athletes into programs, they are very close to where the Cubans, East Germans and Eastern Europeans used to be.''

That enormous potential was in evidence during the first week in Athens. Through Sunday's events, China's gold-medal was 22, one ahead of the Americans' 21.

Chinese athletes won multiple gold medals in diving, shooting, and badminton.

The intense focus on 2008 surfaced at the news conferences that followed those victories. Instead of Chinese reporters seeking details about the just-completed events, they asked the winners about their plans for the 2008 Games.

The Chinese approach, which has the full support of Communist leadership, has been far-reaching. It encompasses virtually every one of the Olympics' current 28 disciplines, even sports that have no national roots for China, such as canoeing and kayaking.

Their strategy, experts say, has three primary ingredients:

n To identify, train and lavishly support young athletes. "They identify them when they are 7, 8, 9 years old,'' Khoa Nguyen, an American table-tennis player, said of his Chinese competitors. "They're sent off to training camps and fully funded. They play table tennis full time.''

n To extend their focus beyond the sports where they traditionally have excelled - table tennis, gymnastics, badminton, diving. "The Chinese appear to have solved the riddle of how to develop athletes in sports outside their culture,'' said Page.

n To infuse their dedicated, motivated, but typically emotionally cool athletes with some American-style chutzpah. "They have brought in hundreds of sports psychologists just to get some of that rah-rah team spirit they see in the U.S. teams," said Page.

The Chinese team that marched into the Olympic Stadium here behind NBA star Yao Ming was 407 strong, still 131 smaller than the U.S. squad. But the gap is narrowing. In Australia, just four years ago, there were 279 Chinese athletes.

And much of China's efforts are geared toward women, with 279 females on their Athens team, and the young. The average age of Chinese athletes here is 23, exactly four years younger than their American competitors. Eighty percent of the Chinese team will be Olympic novices - which is to say they will be Olympic veterans when the Games open in their own country.

Reports from Beijing suggest that billions of dollars have been spent upgrading the transportation infrastructure for the 2008 Games. The venues, in sharp contrast to Athens' experience, will be finished two years in advance.

At this year's Olympics, Chinese athletes are competing in 26 of 28 sports -all but equestrian and baseball. They are expected to dominate in men's gymnastics and diving, as well as in several under-the-radar events (table tennis, badminton, weightlifting and shooting).

But according to Page, the managing director who monitors international athletics for the USOC, they could begin to make a splash in other high-profile Olympic competitions.

"You will see them do very well in basketball,'' said Page. "They are developing a very strong baseball program. And even in track and field, there are some Chinese athletes who have been performing very well recently.''

The latter include Liu Xiang, a 21-year-old hurdler who in May upset U.S. world champion Allen Johnson in the 110-meter hurdles at a Grand Prix event.

Liu could be said to exemplify the Chinese strategy. He's young and improving, like many of his teammates, meaning that the Chinese aspirations for 2008 could be perfectly timed.

"They are putting all the resources necessary into winning the medal count in 2008,'' said Scherr. "Unlike the process in other countries, including our own, they have no impediments as to the amount of resources or how they use those resources. They have gone out and hired the best coaches in the world. That apparatus and machinery will be in place for a long, long time.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:43 pm: Edit

geez. people write freaking dissertations to reply to a couple of sentences that were a joke. man.

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:48 pm: Edit

pfffft.

By Bunmushroom (Bunmushroom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

china is doing what the soviets did. Take kids from age 3 who show any talent and run their lives, practicing all day, out of their parents control. They do this for national pride, but most people see it as inhumane and selfish of the gov.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit

you're just jealous that they're better than america in sports, so you say that they're selfish and controlling and stuff, but really you're the selfish, controlling one in the grand scheme of things.

By Onnihs (Onnihs) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

"If you are an American citizen, and expect to be entitled to all the privileges that come with your citizenship, your allegiance should be towards America. Why would you feel 'patriotic' if any other country wins a medal?
Minorities expect the rest of America to treat them equally, but how can they make such demands if their patriotism is not directed towards the United States?"

F R E E D O M O F S P E A C H Y O U C O M M I E

By Bunmushroom (Bunmushroom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

lisa simpson, how am I selfish and controlling? How is China better than the US in sports? They have about 4 times the population, have funding for their athletes, and the US is ahead in the medal count. In the US, individuals must get private funding and private motivation, because the govt is not there to be their nannies.

By Takiusproteus (Takiusproteus) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Cut the McCarthyism and jealousy.

"Boo hoo, some other country is accelerating and almost beating our country in medals... lemme find ways to cheapen their achievements by attributing them to silly or awful things like the kids being trained early and the country having a large population... They're only good because there's so damn many of them!"

Enough. Just say 'good job, mate'. Lets not be sore losers. Makes us look worse.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Forget funding, in the US you only participate in the olympics because you freaking feel like it! Hey, lets take away people's rights and force them to devote all of their lives to one activity just so we can feel some moronic sense of pride. Who needs freedoms, education, and health when you have lots of shiny medals.

-Jose

By Appliedmath (Appliedmath) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit

i don't know about you guys be Carly Patterson is good stuff :), even though i'm chinese that's the only reason i rooted for the US girls gymnastics team

By Bobmarley (Bobmarley) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:20 pm: Edit

So why in the hell do these gymnastics chicks look like they spend more time putting on makeup than training?

What's with the whoreish look?

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

hahah it's sad that the americans are just as brainwashed as the chinese.

By Ay_Caramba (Ay_Caramba) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Takiusproteus:
How can we be sore losers if we're winning?
And how is losing by over 20 total medals (as of right now) "almost beating our country"?

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:42 pm: Edit

he meant that if another country beats the americans at something, many americans will just try to brush it off and argue that the chinese (in this case) didn't beat us because their athletes are just plain better, but rather because the government "forces" the kids to train for "moronic pride". instead of the athletes being good, the government is "inhumane" and "selfish." pfft, get over yourselves, seriously.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Lisasimpson,

For starters, you supported someone on this thread who said that minorities in the U.S. shouldn't expect equal rights if they support a different country in the olympics.

I don't watch the Olympics because I'm not a sports person.. but I do think that freedom is something that we all should find important (apparently I'm brain-washed in that aspect?). I don't give a crap who is winning the olympics, but I do find it amazing how countries can put so much effort and resources into winning a bunch of games to win some medals when they are significantly lacking in resources that their citizens truly need.

Truthfully, your ignorant support of foreignboy's statements and your simple writing off of comments about freedom and poltical rights as mere demonstrations of jealousy over a bunch of games really says something about your level of maturity and intelligence.

-Jose

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit

>>>>>>>Lisasimpson,

what up, brotha?

>>>>>>>>For starters, you supported someone on this thread who said that minorities in the U.S. shouldn't expect equal rights if they support a different country in the olympics.

dont remember doing that. sorry.

>>>>>>>>>>I don't watch the Olympics because I'm not a sports person..

obviously.

>>>>>>>>but I do think that freedom is something that we all should find important

i'll agree (x gets the square.)

>>>>>>>I don't give a crap who is winning the olympics, but I do find it amazing how countries can put so much effort and resources into winning a bunch of games to win some medals when they are significantly lacking in resources that their citizens truly need.

truly amazing indeed.

>>>>>>>Truthfully, your ignorant support of foreignboy's statements and your simple writing off of comments about freedom and poltical rights as mere demonstrations of jealousy over a bunch of games really says something about your level of maturity and intelligence.

don't judge me.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

"Who needs freedoms, education, and health when you have lots of shiny medals."

Many of those kids that are scouted come from insanely poor villages, where the people live miles below the poverty line. For them, sport is the way out of the mire. Contrary to what you believe, excelling in sports is the route to education and health, that these villagers would not otherwise receive. For example, many gymnasts and the like are guaranteed college education after they are done with their sporting careers, which in those sports, are often shortlived. The freedom that you mention is what these potential athletes exercise to join the state run programs, much like how many of us on this board are using the freedom that we have to partake in college education. If you're gonna say that they can opt in but not out, well they most certainly can withdraw from the progams, at the same time relinquishing all the perks they would have received. Why would they do that.

(edit)And no Jose, you're not brainwashed in believing in freedom. You're brainwashed in believing that every Chinese in a state run program is there because he is forced to, and for believing that the Chinese government treats its people in an Animal Farm kinda way, subverting them and curtailing all their freedom.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

bravo! well said, brother.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:41 pm: Edit

I seem to be the only one here at the moment who has been in any real international competition (no, ISEF does not count), so I figure I'll tell what I know... it's better than relying on racial stereotypes and biased media editorials, as we are now. Please remember, this isn't about me.

I spent some time this summer in Brisbane, Australia, as a member of the four person American team at the International Biology Olympiad. Sure, it doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics, but it is extremely popular in Europe and usually has about 40-50 countries competing (4 competitors per country, competitors must enter all events). It probably has similar dynamics to the athletic Olympics, as government attitudes competition to competition tend to be similar.

Fact 1: China has 1.2 billion people. The US has 290 million. In a purely mathematical sense, they should do better than us.

Fact 2: China has ~2.0 million students take their biology olympiad qualifying exam. The US has less than 6,000. Ditto above.

Fact 3: The IBO (and the whole academic Olympiad system, for that matter) was started in the Cold War era USSR to defeat the Imperialist West in scientific know-how. The US only began competing last year.

Fact 3b: As a result of its origin, much of the knowledge involved in this competition is foreign to American students. Different names, different subject emphases, different taxonomic systems, etc. And it doesn't help when the European judges throw out all of the genetic engineering questions.

Fact 4: Totalitarian nations train significantly more than western nations. This is not just due to national pride, but instead because of an entirely different education system. Kids in most foreign countries specialize far earlier than American students.

Fact 4b: When you're an 18-year old in high school, it's not easy to compete with foreign 18-year olds in the middle of medical school.

Fact 4c: Through talking to many of the competitors from non-capitalist nations, I can say for certain that their government makes them prepare harder, longer, and more intensely than the Americans. While we get a 2-week training camp, the Chinese members claimed to have been preparing for 2, 4, 4, and 6 years, respectively.

Fact 5: The US has better resources, hands down. This is our saving grace. I have seen foreign (non-western European) textbooks, and they are simply pitiful. I am not sure that this analogizes to the Olympics, but I imagine that American competitiors there also have far better training equipment.

Assumption 1: Teenagers are resourceful people. When you give someone an opportunity, the results are usually far better than making someone do your bidding.

Fact 6: The Americans won the competition, taking 4 gold medals for the first time in Olympiad history. China finished fifth, behind Taiwan, Singapore, and the United Kingdom.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:50 pm: Edit

As for the "opting in and out" part...

Like all of you, I really do not know what it is like to live in poverty in a non-capitalist nation. But I do know that a lot rides on the outcome of Biology Olympiad (and Olympics in general) for these kids. Most of them cannot afford to attend college, and their scholarships to state universities are often tied to their performance at this one competition.

The results of this are obvious: lots of desperation, crying, tears, and joy. It's emotion that is rarely seen in our densensitized Western culture, and it really makes you think.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Being the pro-China stoic that I am, I will say that the above rankings just say that China won two spots out of the top five, since Taiwan is after all part of China. But maybe that's just me, and I'm not from the PRC.

Secondly, many of the best biologists in China have been flowing out of the country. I'm sure that those of you in the USA have read about PRC-born researchers engaging in cutting-edge research in labs across the US. I'm from Singapore and I know about their huge numbers here. Ditto for those in Taiwan and the UK.

Thirdly, and I have absolutely no knowledge on this, but what language was the IBO in? I really don't know about this and am definitely not insinuating that the Chinese were handicapped by the language used in the papers, but if the IBO was conducted in english, there certainly would have been great difficulty faced by the competitors from the PRC.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:54 pm: Edit

With regards to your second post, Purgeofdoors, that's precisely my point. It's their one way ticket out of the slums.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Sixty, I understand what you are saying, but I don't really find that to be a very legimitate way of providing education to a country's citizens. The fact that this is an opportunity that exists in china for citizens to receive an education, doesn't negate the fact that their are much BETTER ways of allocating such a resource. And once again lisasimpson, all you've contributed to this discussion is comments about how we are all jealous of China's performance.

Out of billions of people, lets choose a handful who can do extraordinary things in sports, spend millions of dollars on training coaches, equipment, etc. all so we can WIN A FEW MEDALS for our nation's pride. And then reward those few with an education. You see what i'm saying? Imagine how many could be educated if so much money weren't spent on the olympics.

"I don't give a crap who is winning the olympics, but I do find it amazing how countries can put so much effort and resources into winning a bunch of games to win some medals when they are significantly lacking in resources that their citizens truly need."

In a nation in which a tremendously large amount of the resources are controlled by the government, I see this as a horrible way of choosing what "selected" few gets what. And i do still see this as a way of FORCE, especially when one considers the alternative.

Added - (that is, the alternatives that the athletes have)

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

So let's with the millions of dollars we have, attempt to provide healthcare and education for 1.2 billion people. Wait that's only a few cents per person, oh well all you hoardes of villagers just queue up all the same, this year's healthcare and education budget was only enough to get you lot a pencil and a plaster each. Move along now.

Watchful American: "Look at those bumbling Chinese, let's send a man to the moon, now that would be a great way to achieve allocative efficiency. When Neil takes that giant leap for mankind, there won't be anymore homeless Americans."

Taking a step away from sarcasm, how do you determine who get a larger slice of that education pie then? Contrary to what Bush believes, if you do more and contribute more, obviously you should earn more. If you have intelligence and wit and manage to get an MBA you really ought to be earning more than some illegal alien at Walmart. That, my friend, is the basis of allocative efficiency, not that everybody should get a crumb from that very limited pie. I hope you're getting my drift here... The PRC government is really just crediting people with what they deserve, equatable to what they contribute to the country. It's almost like a market economy within a command one, but that's the China that we have today.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:25 pm: Edit

I see what you are saying, it certainly does reflect, in some sense, a market economy. Though I certainly wouldn't compare winning a gold medal to sending a man to the moon, as the latter can certainly provide a much greater future benefit to man kind, but the main intention of each nation in doing either is still the same, pride.

Yes the PRC is giving an education to people who certainly deserve one for their hard work, but is the actual contribution to their country (winning a medal in the olympics) really worth spending so much money on?

Added- perhaps my lack of interest in the olympics keeps me from seeing the significance of the games.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Anyway just as an afterthought, I think the basis of our disagreement is that you perceive sport as being inferior to healthcare and education. While I agree that sport should take a backseat to healthcare, I refuse to admit that sport is lesser to education.

Intellectuals like education, jocks like sports. How one weighs the two is entirely normative.

"is the actual contribution to their country (winning a medal in the olympics) really worth spending so much money on?"

The PRC govt evidently think so, and besides they've gotta educate someone anyway, why not does who have made significant contributions to the country. With their somewhat iconic status within the country after they win that medal, would that not enhance the benefits of education in the sense that villagers who perhaps would otherwise have been content with ploughing the fields the rest of their lives now desire an education after seeing their heroes go to college? A bit far-fetched but true nonetheless.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Well yeah the Olympics is certainly a big event in the eyes of most people. Besides it being the cliched celebration of human spirit and endeavor, it serves too as a platform for nations the world over to come together, compete and learn from one another.

Having played catch-up to the rest of the world for so many years, I can definitely understand why the PRC govt value the Olympics that highly. It is a chance for them to show the world that they indeed have arrived, hence the jubilation when they were chosen to host the 2008 one. This would be akin to the aforementioned IBO.

By Takiusproteus (Takiusproteus) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:38 pm: Edit

From what I've seen, China provides a very rigorous education to its young students (recall the "I don't need a hard drive, I have a bunch of chinese teenagers in the basement memorizing the numbers" joke). I dunno if this is the case in the extremely poor rural areas (then again, where is there ever anything good in any poor rural area?).

It just doesn't guarantee a -college- education. Admission is by a very VERY competitive national examination reminiscent of the ancient exam for magistracies etc. Sort of an SAT, except the SAT is all that counts... ECs and Recs have no place. Big big incentive.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Isn't the desire for an education quite embedded into Chinese culture already? Its the means to acquire it that certainly aren't available to them, so perhaps... while you won't get an increase in college students, you'll get an increase in olympiads, which means more medals and i guess consequently more college students. Yay! :P

This does remind me of an exercise we had in econ. The main purpose was to find different ways of allocating "scarce" resources without using any form of money. The ideas were quite strange, but a fun exercise.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Not so when you factor in the number of kids who are content with ploughing the fields, and there are many of those I assure you. The stereotypical American Chinese is obviously ambitious, that's why they moved halfway around the globe in the first place. Besides having invested that much in making the move, they really do have to succeed. That's hardly totally reflective of Chinese in China though. So I wouldn't really say that the desire for an education is embedded into Chinese culture.

I don't know whether you meant Olympians instead of Olympiads, but realistically many of the olympians attend lesser institutions. Beijing and Qinghua Universities are most certainly not filled to the brim with bemedalled olympians if that's what you're thinking.

By Bunmushroom (Bunmushroom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

This is oreilly's take:

Talking Points Memo
Why the USA dominates the Olympics
Why is it that the United States dominates the Olympic games, even though the Chinese and Soveits pay millions for their athletes, and give them a life of wealth outside of the poverty ridden norm? This is a nation of achievers and competitors, driven by individuals. Other nations don't put such strong emphasis on self-reliance. The entitlement culture is a force that destroys self-discipline and motivation. Canada, a socialistic country with 10 million people more than australia, has 5 medals, while Australia, a more capitalistic nation, has 30. In the US, athletes compete because they want to, not because they are forced to.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:58 pm: Edit

O'Reilly is blabbering as usual. No where in the America is growing up as testing as in the poverty stricken parts of the world, not even the ghettos if you think those are bad. Self-reliance in bred through hardship. Try imagining doing the laundry in the tainted waters of some creek.... now try imagining that again, only that you're six years old and washing baskets upon baskets of laundry of other families that paid you.

2nd point, American atheletes certainly want it, but they cannot possibly want it more than athletes from poorer nations that have less opportunities otherwise.

A more important take on things would be Maddox's take on O'Reilly. That you all should really read.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

Yes, I did mean Olympians, sorry. :)

The ambition issue has been brought up several times in discussions I've had with other people. In the US there obviously are varying academic performance levels between different ethnic groups, Asians and Indians generally performing very well while Hispanics perform quite poorly. Now, some people will just say, well, some groups are just smarter than others, but it seems that their is some relation between this performance and the proximity of the nations to the United States.

Now I know that in Mexico, there is a very large educated population, but the thing is, that population stays in Mexico, very few feel the necessity to come to the U.S. So naturally, the groups of mexicans in the U.S. are generally those who really wouldn't have the opportunity to receive an education in Mexico (laborers) and therefore don't fully understand the importance of one. So if the only thing separating China from the U.S. were a river, would performance levels of asian-americans be quite different?

One of our teachers told us of how for centuries one of the only ways to break free from poverty in China was through very rigorous examinations (civil service?) and that this practice, embedded in chinese culture the necessity of an education. For this reason I figured that even in the lower levels of Chinese society the importance of education is still felt. Can someone enlighten me? (even though the thread is about the olympics).

-Jose

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:12 am: Edit

"So if the only thing separating China from the U.S. were a river, would performance levels of asian-americans be quite different?"

They most certainly would be.

About your last paragraph, I figure that would be true for the intelligentsia, but to say that its true for the entire population would be over-generalistaion. Sure the scholars command respect and all that, but I'm sure there are many who do not aspire to be scholars. That once again boils down to ambition. Many are indeed content wallowing in mediocrity, blissfully oblivious to the other paths of opportunity.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:26 am: Edit

Additional info:

I was at a econ honours class once, and my tutor was explaining the Asian tendency to save. While many people attributed this to asians being traditionally harder savers, he pointed out, and i agree, that the amount saved was probably cos of the recent memories of poverty. Few of the Western countries today can consider themselves to have been poor in recent years, the last economic ebb for this countries would have been pre WW2 during the great depression. Asian countries, like India and China, have for the large part been poor until recent years. They can remember how it was like to be poor, and therefore save more. I think the motivation to study harder is probably the same.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:41 am: Edit

China will host the 2005 International Biology Olympiad. We'll see what part translation plays in the competition then. I really don't think it is a great factor, as the official languages of the Olympiads (Russian and English) don't seem to stop Asians in general from kicking ass (taking 10 or so of the 16 gold medals given). Plus, they hire teams of translators to write tests for any language desired by the competitors.

And, in terms of this discussion, it's absolutely ridiculous to say that Taiwan is part of the PRC. Their methods of finding and preparing a team as well as economic and political systems are very disparate. And that is what this thread is about, right? We're aren't going to get into racial superiority, please, no.

It's actually quite sad that the excellent Taiwanese team is not going to be able to compete next year due to Beijing's unwarranted attitude toward a non-political academic competition.

I competely agree with your post about the Asian tendency to save, btw.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

Singapore's education system is English based, and many Singaporeans actually do better than americans in the verbal sat. In fact, one of the members of the singaporean team to the IBO was a classmate of mine two years ago. As a speaker of both English and Chinese, and believe you me i am more than proficient at both, I have to say that it is insanely harder to hold a scientific discussion or argument in Chinese than English. That's just the way it is. Imagine having to say Pythagoras' Theorem in chinese.

The taiwan thing was just a sidenote btw

By Masterchris (Masterchris) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 02:56 am: Edit

Here is my take.

I understand someone supporting the US and their parents' home coutnry. I have been cheering for both Japan, where I have lived almost all my life, and the US, my birth place and my parents' birth place.

On the other hand, I could never support a country like China. Aside from having one of the worst humanitarian records in the world, they treat their athletes as a commodity, and promise them a better life if they succeed. If the do not, it is back to the horrible life that most chinese experience.

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 09:09 am: Edit

Awesome post, Chris. Thanks for keeping it real.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:56 am: Edit

Therefore it would be more justifiable to support a country where the people have crap lives whether or not they succeed?

I can't name one off hand but I'm sure many african ones would fall into this category.

By Zhou (Zhou) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:12 am: Edit

Chinese athletes fight for pride and honor,not for anything material,dude.If you think of a country with a middle-class entity that consumed more luxury goods like BMW and villas than any other country in Asia as horrible,I think you are just insane.Let's just be objective,OK?

You guys deserve the rights to have a biased opinion.Oh,yeah,you are granted.But you should do some research and come back to analysis and conclusion.Not just jabbling around with pop-up thoughts!Take a second to think!THINK!Use your brain,dude.

By Docalex (Docalex) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:13 am: Edit

Whats up with all this?? Why can't a national olympic team win when they are best without critizism from other nationals??? I believe, in general, Americans have the hardest time with this due to the fact that the U.S has an image of being superior in the world. This carries on into many other things, including the olympics. Remember i made a generality and does not apply to every American. But this can be clearly seen as the underlying theme from Americans in international sports.

By 3togo (3togo) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

> individuals. Other nations don't put such strong emphasis on self-reliance. The entitlement culture is a force that destroys self-discipline and motivation. Canada, a socialistic country with 10 million people more than australia, has 5 medals, while Australia, a more capitalistic nation, has 30. In the US, athletes compete because they want to, not because they are forced to.

hmm ... just because I can find a million ways to waste time and am a math geek I have figured out the "population per medal" ratio for these olympics (as of last night).

A few highlights. 68 teams have won medals so far.
* The US, #1 in total medals, is #41 in the efficiency of winning medals with 4.1 million people for every medal won so far.
* China, #2 in total medals, is #63 in the efficiency with 25.4 millon people for every medal eon
* Australia ... #4 in effieciency ... 500,000 people for every medal won
* Canada ... #44 in efficiency ... 4.6 million people for Canada (I wouldn't pick on them too much ... pretty similar to the US)

* Most of the "efficient" countries are either 1) very small, 2) ex-communist countries, or both

1 Bahamas 300,000 / medal
2 Estonia 447,000
3 Slovenia 503,000
4 Australia 538,000
5 Denmark 902,000
6 Netherlands 907,000
7 Belarus 937,000
8 Bulgaria 940,000
9 Hungary 1M
10 Slovakia 1.1M
14 Greece 1.1M
26 France 2.4M
28 Germany 2.6M
30 Great Brit 2.7M
32 Italy 2.8M
34 Russia 3.0M
41 USA 4.1M
44 Canada 4.6M
63 China 25.5M
68 India 1065.1M (1 medal so far)

The US is doing great but we are a huge country and shouldn't deny the amazing number of great athletes coming out of smaller countries!

By 3togo (3togo) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:41 am: Edit

One of the things that makes the US great is that it a melting pot of cultures from around the world. As a Greek-American (my grandparents came over in the the early 1910s) I take extra pride in the Olympics being in Athens and in the performance of the Greek athletes (at least the ones who did not cheat). I would hope most of us are still drawn to our roots and identify with them to some degree.

It sure feels like we're moving towards more Starbucks, Wal-Marts, and McDonalds and losing some the ethnic and regional uniqueness that has always defined the US ... personally I hope that we always maintain the melting pot. Living near Boston's little Brazil (and the celebration) was cool after the last soccer world cup ... and experience we can contiue to have in the US!

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

If you want ethnic and regional uniqueness in the U.S., then I think you're looking for a "tossed salad" makeup of the U.S., not a melting pot. I'd consider the melting pot idea to be more of.. everyone sort of blending into a single U.S. culture thats made up of different aspects of various cultures and sort of blurring the lines between ethnic groups.

A teacher of mine once said "multi-culture is no culture". Interesting idea

-Jose

By Neo (Neo) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Interesting thread.

By Masterchris (Masterchris) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

zho, i know china is becoming wealthier and becoming more free market oriented, but the average chinese does not have it good. The average income is around $3800/yr. I dont know about your statistic about china consuming a lot of middle class goods, but if it is true, china has 1.3 billion people, so that would make sense.

By Zhou (Zhou) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Masterchris,there you go.That definitely makes sense.Though the average income of Chinese citizen may be relatively low,that does not justify the truth that not everyone there is in shreds and tatters.Now China is a premier product supplier to the whole world.It is undeniable that in almost every nation on this globe there are goods made in China.Soon China will transform from a premier product supplier to a major product consumer.Oh,yeah,the transition is taking place.For example,China imports the second largest amount of petroleum in the world,with US being the No.1.There is other evidence to prove this.For example,China has the world's biggest cell phone network with advanced CDMA and GPRS network which are more advanced than the GSM network.People in China change their cell phones so often that she has become the biggest cell phone market on the globe.When many cell phone users in other parts of the world still stick to old uncolored screen cell phones,almost everyone in China is using colored-screen cell phone with digital camera.Looks unbelievable but this is the truth.Go find out yourself and it's happening.The reason why I am saying this is to remind some people of the importance of objective research,logical analysis and justified conclusion.Use your mind to think,dude.THINK...

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 05:48 pm: Edit

China

Pop. - 1,298,847,624 (2004 est)
Telephones - 214.42 million
Cell Phones - 206.62 million
Internet Users - 59.1 million

US

Pop. - 293,027,571 (2004 est)
Telephones - 186,232,300
Cell Phones - 140,766,800
Internet Users - 159 million

By Masterchris (Masterchris) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 06:59 pm: Edit

"truth that not everyone there is in shreds and tatters."


Of course not. I never said EVERYONE. Even in the poorest countries there are some well to do. I said the average chinese are poor, and pointing out that there are more telephones in china does not change anything, since only about 20% in china have phone service, will about 1 billion do not. You can have as much national pride as you want, and that is fine, but don't put on rosy glasses.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 07:08 pm: Edit

America wants to remain the largest economy in the world? Simple solution. Everyone throw away all contraceptives and put on some Barry White!

Just adding some humor. :)

By 3togo (3togo) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit

Buying patterns in China are different in China versus the US. In the US a lot of buying is focussed on individuals ... and this shows up in the number of phones, cars, TVs, etc we buy ... it is quite large per capita. In China, extended families tend to live together and buy things for a household ... so the combined buying power of all the adults in a home allow the househould to purchase items ... and there are A LOT of households in China.

So that phone example sited earlier is probably somewhere in between ... the 214M phones in China are much closer to one a house and cover lots more adults. This same thing is true for TVs, PCs, etc. In the US the 186M phones probably cover about 100M homes and 1-2 adults per household.


Different dynamics in two huge economies.

By Neo (Neo) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Certain people are determined to condemn China whenever comparisions arise between them and the United States.

By Zhou (Zhou) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

There you go...

By Mr_Sanguine (Mr_Sanguine) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:48 pm: Edit

There was an article in The Economist a while ago which described how intense nationalism in China is actually one of the salient issues against holding the Olympics there in future years. Apparently, those deciding were afraid that the mobs may become a tad unruly should something not too favorable occur.

By Takiusproteus (Takiusproteus) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Masterchris,

The income of the average citizen appears low to you - however, keep in mind that the cost of living in China is incredibly incredibly low. I can go out and get a filling breakfast for the equivalent of 10 US cents. Clothing, shelter, etc. are also affordable. Even the DSL service there is insanely cheap compared to rates here in the USA. Imported luxury items, of course, are still out of the reach of pretty much everyone. Now I'm talking about Cartier watches and BMWs.

The average person isn't all that poor. Only the poor people are poor... because, well, they're poor.

By Hsun (Hsun) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

wow, never thought this thread (which i started ) would get SOOOOOOO off topic.

By Lethalfang (Lethalfang) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Correction: an average Chinese person living in a major coastal city isn't that poor. However, when you look at the whole country, most people are still peasants living in rural villages who have very little, and they are really really poor.
China mainly consists of a very few wealthy, and a large number of middle class, but mostly poor.

By Bunmushroom (Bunmushroom) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

Unemployment in the coastal cities is 11%, and unemployemt in the rural areas is around 20% according to the 2003 world almanac. That does not sound good to me.

By Lethalfang (Lethalfang) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 04:29 am: Edit

I don't know about unemployment rates in China, but the living conditions in rural China is horrid, and for the most part hopeless.
Many, maybe most, of the rural population don't have money to send their kids to school. There is a news headline that shocked his village recently, that a rural kid owed about $80 to his high school, and is therefore revoked the right to take his college entrance exam, and the kid committed suicide by jumping in front of a truck.
And Takiusproteus was exaggerating about filling a basket with 10 US cents. It is much cheaper, but it 10 US dollars is much closer to reality than 10 US cents.
Sheltering is still very much affordable, if you count half-way broken apartments that cannot withstand a 4.5 earthquake, and you have to walk up down the stairs living on 5th floor to dump daily garbage. Quality shelter is much more expensive.

By Lethalfang (Lethalfang) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 04:34 am: Edit

Masterchris, there is no way the average annual income for Chinese is $3800/yr. Even in the most advanced city in China, Shanghai, anyone earning that would be considering "doing quite well."
Here is a figure showing average income for urban and rural, keep in mind that there is a MUCH larger rural population.
1 US dollars ~ 8 RMB
http://www.economist.com/images/20030927/CAS684.gif

By Bunmushroom (Bunmushroom) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 04:34 pm: Edit

So many companies from the US and elsewhere have things "made in china" cause they can pay workers there pennies and hour.

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 06:00 pm: Edit

"I can go out and get a filling breakfast for the equivalent of 10 US cents"

Complete bull$hit! Where did you go get your breakfast?! In the dumpster? I went to China two years ago. Don't tell me all of a sudden the price of food has dropped. I have visited the major cities and the living conditions although not bad, are not very good for many people. The streets were very dirty and the unemployment rate was not good. At the dinner table, one of the main compliant was the high cost of getting an education. Not a college education, but elementary, junior high, and high school education. There is no such thing as public schools there. You don't have money for books, lunch, or tuition you don't go to school.

By Zuka (Zuka) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

--------------------
since Taiwan is after all part of China.
--------------------
- sixsixty


lol, wrong. taiwan has been seperate for the last 55~ years. and before WWII ended, it was a japanese colony for around 60 years.

part of china, my ass.

i have many taiwanese friends who hate chinese because of this.

taiwan has a unique taiwanese language, and different customs, and will never be annexed to china.

perhaps, if one is foolish enough to call the taiwanese chinese, then one would also need to call americans and australians, british. americans and australians have british origins dont they?

china has no claim to any square inch of taiwanese land, and thats that.

By Takiusproteus (Takiusproteus) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Actually no, it's a small local fastfood-type place. They've got those pancake wrap things with eggs. I just checked. It's actually closer to 15 cents. Sorry bout that.

A nice dinner at a decent restaurant costs about 7 US (56RMB) dollars for a small family of 3.

According to that economist link, a member of the rural poor make 2500 per year. The poor of the US make about $10,000 (Census 2003 Poverty Threshold for one person). Lets say the same dinner in the US would cost in the area of 60 bucks. (if you spend 20 dollars per person)

Let's take a look at the Cost of Dinner/Income ratio to get a sense of how big a dent it puts in one man's wallet to provide for a 3-person dinner.
Chinese poor: (lets just round up) 60/2500 = .024
US poor: 60/10,000 = .006

So, a US poor guy could go out to dinner about 4 times more often than a Chinese poor guy.

I'll admit that my example applies mostly to the urban areas (as does the cost of that dinner... I don't know how much it would cost in the countryside, but likely far less). For an average urban chinese, whose income is 7500, the ratio would be .008 for that same dinner.

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Are you talking about those street vendors that sells food? Perhaps those will offer 15cent food but you cannot decently call that a meal. Sure in the US we can getg $1.00 breakfast too; just go to the donut and cofee wagons in the city area and you can get a 50cent donut.

When I went to China I went to a the local small size restaurant with about 12 tables. We ordered 5 dishes for 4 people(no fancy stuff) and it costed us about 40 chinese dollars(dont know what its called.. yen?). That's about 5 US dollars. So still good deal for us Americans, but no quite so for the locals. Still you can't quite get a meal with 15cents or feed a family with15 cent per person.

In fact, I heard meat is quite expensive in China to the locals. The vegetables are cheap, I admit, but only for local produce.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:19 pm: Edit

" Are you talking about those street vendors that sells food? Perhaps those will offer 15cent food but you cannot decently call that a meal. Sure in the US we can getg $1.00 breakfast too; just go to the donut and cofee wagons in the city area and you can get a 50cent donut. "

I can say that in Mexico... thats what the average person eats from.. either you cook at home, or eat from the street vendors (where a meal will cost about $1-3). So calling that a meal isn't exactly wrong. They are pretty much the equivalent of our burger kings, mcdonalds, pizza huts, etc, which btw are considered far more "up-scale" in developing countries, than they are here.

ex. Pizza Hut in Mexico has glass sliding doors, nice salad bar, and people eat the pizza with a fork and knife. :)

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Well not in China. I know that people for the most part treat them the same way we do--as a quick snack or a meal substitute now and then. And the street vendors don't sell the healtiest foods. They are very salty and oily and are supposed to satisfy a craving. Eat that as a main course and you'll have more troubles than from eating McDonalds everyday.

By Joseancer (Joseancer) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 01:20 am: Edit

so kind of like seven-11's :)

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 01:00 am: Edit

Zuka, doubt me but just wait and see. If you're involved in college application now then I'd tell you it's gonna happen in our lifetime. Unless, of course, you intend on being part of the taiwanese military at the time taiwan declares indepedence. Then it's gonna be just after your lifetime.

By Lethalfang (Lethalfang) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 05:03 am: Edit

I agree with Thunder77. These so-called 15-cents meal are closer to a sneaker bar than a real meal.
The AVERAGE of the rural poor make 2500 RMB a year. Now if you make $10,000 a year in the US, now that's REALLY poor, way below the poverty line.

By Zhou (Zhou) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Make a correction for you,Thunder77.The unit of Chinese currency is called Yuan,not Yen.Yen is for the Japanese...

By Zuka (Zuka) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 08:34 pm: Edit

-----------------------
Zuka, doubt me but just wait and see. If you're involved in college application now then I'd tell you it's gonna happen in our lifetime. Unless, of course, you intend on being part of the taiwanese military at the time taiwan declares indepedence. Then it's gonna be just after your lifetime.
-----------------------
-sixsixty


wow, great.

who in their right mind would support the takeover of a prosperous island with a democratically elected leader, by a totalitarian state with a long list of human right's violations.

oh thats right, you.

why dont YOU move to the PRC, so you can be kidnapped by the government for expressing your views openly, so you can read/watch the state run media, so you can use the censored internet. and most of all use email cuz TXT messaging is banned. ROFL!!!

china has the same amount of claim to taiwan as it does to mongolia. after all, mongolia was part of china from the Yuan dynasty up until KMT rule.

taiwan will never be annexed to china.

-zuka

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 08:16 am: Edit

What you're saying is that based on China's past human rights record taiwan will not be annexed to China. The two have as much correlation as trigonometry and your gluteus maximus. Taiwan will ultimately be annexed to china, or at the very least, the current status quo will remain, where taiwan will insist on their sovereignty, but the rest of the world will (officially at least) regard them as part of China. Long run politics and economics determine this. I'm not here to tell you whether its right or wrong, I'm just saying its inevitable.

For that matter, I AM using censored internet, and watching TV that was only privatised a few years ago. That doesn't stop me from expressing myself as I am now.

By Cherrybarry (Cherrybarry) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:34 am: Edit

I'm Asian and I'm probably going to China in 2008 to see the Olympics to root for my home country so take that you American nationalists!!!!

By Sally (Sally) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:59 pm: Edit

First of all, I would like to say that I am an average middle class Chinese girl. And I think it is safe to say that my thinking is probably the majority of the 1.4 billion Chinese thinks.

I love China no matter what. It's not about Nationalism guys, it's a part of who I am, and where am I coming from. China is not only a home country for me. There's so much connection, so much emotional matters involved. The exotic & rich culture, the beautiful language, the way I look, the way I think, the wonderful things I value, the amazing stories/legends (from 1000s yrs ago) that I read when I was little, the most delicious food that I love, the always close connected neighbors/friends I had, the ancient/beautiful poems that I read/recited... I am not the person who will forget where she is come from just because where she came from is not perfect. China is already part of me, a loooong time ago. When I was born, my heart was forever stamped by her.

I AM CHINA.

*I love you China, I wish you the BEST. (everyday... :)*

By Sally (Sally) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit

To OP:

Thanks for posting the message. I am sure China will do better in 2008. :)

By Hsun (Hsun) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

china has a population of 1.4 billion now? when did this happen?

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:08 pm: Edit

geez i dont mean to be offensive, but people, if you love china so much, just freaking stay there.

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit

"Just freaking stay there?" People from China come to the US to improve their lives, but of course it is natural to love their native country. It is part of who they are. Just because they love China does not mean they dont love America...

By Sally (Sally) on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit

I love China but I respect America too. I came here to learn and improve. If that makes you mad, then I am sorry.

By Vancat (Vancat) on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 05:02 pm: Edit

"geez i dont mean to be offensive, but people, if you love china so much, just freaking stay there"

hokaaaayyyyyy. So apparently, I should be moving back to China. Cya guys.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

later. send me some souvenirs

By Sally (Sally) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 04:07 pm: Edit

I hope all American are not like you, Lisasimpson. You are giving them a bad name.
The things you said are not the things I would imagine an American would say. I remember, "American" used to stand for civilized, liberal,optimistic, acceptive...

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

all americans ARENT like me at all. i was born in pakistan and immigrated here when i was 5. i consider myself civilizied, liberal, optimistic, and very accepting. how about let's not judge, eh mate?

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Umm I dont think you are very accepting or liberal. In a previous thread you said "homosexuality is a sin. bottom line." That isnt very accepting...

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

just because i think homosexuality is a sin doesnt mean i'm not accepting of homosexuals. just like you (or most ppl) think a different religion is a sin to belong to, but you still accept ppl of different relgions. stop comparing apples to oranges ..

(i always wanted to say that)

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

well you still didn't sound very accepting of the chinese people or the culture on this thread, i mean telling people who really care about their home country to 'just freakin stay there' isn't exactly what you picture someone who is open minded, accepting to others would say. i don't know how you meant that quote but top that off with the homosexuality is a sin bottom line quote, i think its justifiable that that some people like physicskid123 would think you aren't accepting or liberal.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 11:10 pm: Edit

and i think both of you are jumping to conclusions.

By Zhou (Zhou) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Lisasimpson,no feelings for Pakistan,your home country?I feel sorry for Pakistani.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

you feel sorry for pakistani? i'm sorry, i don't mean to jump to conclusions, but that makes little to no sense. i guess you mean you feel sorry for pakistan? wow, it's kind of weird that you feel sorry for an entire country because of me.

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

i doubt its jumping to conclusion when you have post after post that confirm that idea and you certainly did plenty of jumping to conclusions too, example:did the chinese steal the phrase brother off the black people or did the black do copy off the chinese???

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 05:45 pm: Edit

what? that made even less sense. when i have post after post that confirm "that idea"?? WHAT idea??? that i'm not liberal? and then you dig up some random post that wasn't even meant to be serious. how about digging up all the posts in which i said how liberal i was, and bashed conservatives, republicans, and bush. ..oh wait that would show that you're completely wrong about me, and that i'm right about absolutely everything. oh well, you just can't knock sense into some ppl.

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

" you are completely wrong about me and that i'm RIGHT about ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING" hmmmmmmmmm.......

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 09:10 pm: Edit

stop misquoting me, that missing comma completely makes my statement sound absurd. whoop, you're wrong again.

By Techieguy (Techieguy) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

WTF?

(this is not directed to Lisasimpson, but towards the general direction this thread has taken)

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 11:42 pm: Edit

Hey LisaSimpson,

How about if I said this: Your mom's giving birth to you is a sin(implying you should not exist) Do I sound very accepting to you?

When you say something is a sin, that means you do not agree with it. Face it. A sin is something that shouldn't exist or should be damned. Your calling homoseuxality a sin means you think hey are doing something wrong. THIS MEANS YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THIER BEHAVIORS. Get it? Geesh

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

nope. you're wrong. either that, or you have very, very loose morals. or are a hypocrite. or something.


>>>>How about if I said this: Your mom's giving birth to you is a sin(implying you should not exist) Do I sound very accepting to you?

that's where the hypocrite part comes in. you can't say it's a sin for my mom to give birth, but it's okay for your mom to do it. i don't understand how that even relates to anything - obviously you would have to be stupid to consider the only way to keep the human species going to be a sin.

>>>>>When you say something is a sin, that means you do not agree with it.

obviously. a sin is something that is wrong and shouldn't be done.

>>>>>Face it.

ok.

>>>>>A sin is something that shouldn't exist or should be damned.

ok.

>>>Your calling homoseuxality a sin means you think hey are doing something wrong.

wow, you really catch on fast.

>>>>>>THIS MEANS YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THIER BEHAVIORS.

wrong. i can accept them as people even if i don't believe they're living morally righteous lives. for example, i also believe things like promiscuity, premarital sex, adultery, theft, drugs, gluttony, drinking to excess, etc. are sins. and if you don't consider any of those to be sin, you have very loose morals imo. sooo where was i.. oh yea ok, so i think all of those things are sins, but plenty of my friends have sex and smoke weed and drink, but i don't condemn them or avoid them or something...i accept them, i just don't agree with what they do.

>>>>>Get it?

i hope you do now.


>>>>Geesh

ok.

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Umm he didnt say that your birth WAS a sin, it was hypothetical... hence the how about. You are close-minded, and there are several examples from your posts. Just let the thread die! Geez.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Umm he was making a hypothetical statment that didn't really fit the situation...You are judgemental, and there are several examples from your posts. Just let the thread die! Geez.

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit

You just dont UNDERSTAND how his post fit the situation; and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone who believes all homosexuals are sinners is a bigot.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:55 pm: Edit

>>You just dont UNDERSTAND how his post fit the situation
i dont understand because it doesn't make sense.

>>>and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone who believes all homosexuals are sinners is a bigot.

you are so wrong. since you're in the habit of supporting bad analogies, how about this:

i believe homosexuals are sinners. you( probably - hopefully?) believe that all pedophiles are sinners. does that make you a bigot? absolutely not - it makes you a person who has a strict moral code he wants to live by ...or something. you figure it out. it's not rocket science.

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 06:24 pm: Edit

lisasimpson, do you get some sort of ego kick from tellign others they are wrong or something. take a look at the past severla posts, some where in all of them you always go-you are wrong, you are wrong again, you are so wrong, you are always wrong..... you say others are jumping to conclusions and then in the very nexst post you say i don't mean to jump to conclusions BUT... and you complain that we are judging you but you do the same thing to everyone else by calling them hypocrties and saying they have very loose morals. you say you are a liberal cuz you bash the republicans and Bush but yet at the same time you also say that homosexuality is a sin and you agreed sins shouldn't exist and should be damned and you believe that gay people are sinners. you say you are accepting and open minded and yet you can't stand it when people on this thread tries to celebrate their own culture and ideas that are different from your own. no one started off by saying that you weren't a liberal just that from several examples you don't seem very liberal or open minded but then you blow this whole thing out of porportion and points fingers all around tellign this person they are wrong and that person that they are judgemental and another person they are so wrong.

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Lisasimpson got served! Dwerbowy is my best friend.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Could've used a few more periods.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

>>>lisasimpson, do you get some sort of ego kick from tellign others they are wrong or something.

yes. yes i do.

>>>you are wrong, you are wrong again, you are so wrong, you are always wrong

nope. you are.

>>you say others are jumping to conclusions and then in the very nexst post you say i don't mean to jump to conclusions BUT

meaning i didnt mean to jump to conclusions BUT...

>>>ou say you are a liberal cuz you bash the republicans and Bush but yet at the same time you also say that homosexuality is a sin and you agreed sins shouldn't exist and should be damned and you believe that gay people are sinners.

wow, i have complex brain functions. imagine that.

>>>gay people are sinners

finally! you're right about something!

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

LisaSimpson, my example is hypothetical but it proves my point well. What if I said your actions and views are considered a sin to me? Do you think I will accept you? Do you think I want to be friends with you if I carry such an opinion of you?

>>>>>for example, i also believe things like promiscuity, premarital sex, adultery, theft, drugs, gluttony, drinking to excess, etc. are sins. and if you don't consider any of those to be sin, you have very loose morals imo. sooo where was i.. oh yea ok, so i think all of those things are sins, but plenty of my friends have sex and smoke weed and drink, but i don't condemn them or avoid them or something...i accept them, i just don't agree with what they do.>>>>

Here is what I find disturbing. You say that your frieds do things that you consider sins, but you are still their friends. So you like being friends with sinners? WHAT KIND OF RELIGION DO YOU BELONG TO AND WHAT KIND OF MORAL VALUES DO YOU HAVE? Please explain.

Again, I think you know by now you are wrong, but just too adamant to admit it. One more thing, your tendency to respond to other posts word for word is not only annoying, but ineffective because you focus on the details and forget to argue the big picture. Use common sense, please. I can't believe you actually argued literally with my hypothetical statement. The point is to see the bigger picture and if you can't see it, then you are not fit to argue with people. G'd night.

By Thermodude (Thermodude) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

It appears to me that Lisasimpson is a populist (economically liberal, socially conservative.)

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

wow, thermodude is actually right. nice.

wish i could say the same about thunder.

>>>>>Here is what I find disturbing. You say that your frieds do things that you consider sins, but you are still their friends. So you like being friends with sinners? WHAT KIND OF RELIGION DO YOU BELONG TO AND WHAT KIND OF MORAL VALUES DO YOU HAVE? Please explain.

chill out. i have great morals, although i'm not that religious. morality is more important than piety imo. i think everyone should pretty much be able to do what they want - if they dont consider something like drugs to be a sin, they can go smoke whatever they want. i'm friends with them because i enjoy their company and they're good people at heart, even if our values differ. it's also called being practical - i know i'm not going to find any decent friends who are completely "pure" in my standards..

>>>>again, I think you know by now you are wrong, but just too adamant to admit it.

nope, you're wrong.

>>>ne more thing, your tendency to respond to other posts word for word is not only annoying,

what does that even mean? i'm not arguing anything word for word. get a clue.


>>>>Use common sense, please.

ok. try not to give random advice that had nothing to do with anything, please.


>>>I can't believe you actually argued literally with my hypothetical statement

i cant believe u came up with such a stupid hypothetical statment.

>>>>The point is to see the bigger picture and if you can't see it, then you are not fit to argue with people.

i'm not arguing. i'm just stating what i say, and then everyone else is arguing.

By Silmon77 (Silmon77) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

I was too lazy to read all of the posts, so please excuse me for getting back on topic for a sec.

Look, I love America. America is great. However, usually America is the overdog. They are expected to win a lot of medals. When an American wins, I'm glad they beat other countries, but big whoop. Only when they are the underdogs, like at the World Cup when they beat Mexico, do I really get excited.

I feel a lot more patriotic when India does good, because they are usually the underdogs (they won 1 silver medal in Athens- for a country of 1 billion people). That's just how it is. It's always more fun when the underdogs win than when the favorite does.

The one team I was rooting for more than any other- The Iraqi soccer team.

Perhaps that's how many Chinese feel about their home country (although China is now an Olympic powerhouse).

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 01:01 am: Edit

oh. so china ppl want their country to do good because they're used to their country sucking in pretty much everything, so they feel more pride when china wins than if the u.s., which is always used to winning, wins?

why didn't ya say so in the first place.

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 05:03 pm: Edit

>>>>>i'm friends with them because i enjoy their company and they're good people at heart, even if our values differ>>>>>

You said what they do are sins, which makes them sinners to you. Sinners are not good people. If you think what they do are wrong, then how can they be good peopleat heart? Again, what moral values do you have?

For most people, they try to help their friends correct habits or behaviors which they feel are bad. You acknowledge that your friends' behaviors are a sin(to you) but you turn a blind eye to it and ignores it and say you don't care. Some friend you are.

>>>it's also called being practical - i know i'm not going to find any decent friends who are completely "pure" in my standards.. >>>

You are saying you are being practical by accepting friends who are not entirely pure. So you admit that your strict opinions are in the way of making true friends. You only have your current friends because you can't find better ones? They are substitutes? So you really don't have real friends after all, which explains why you post here three times a day :)

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

>>>Sinners are not good people. If you think what they do are wrong, then how can they be good peopleat heart?

sinners aren't necessarily bad ppl if they don't believe that what they're doing is bad.

>>>>Again, what moral values do you have?

again, i have good moral values.


>>>>You acknowledge that your friends' behaviors are a sin(to you) but you turn a blind eye to it and ignores it and say you don't care.

funny, i don't remember saying i don't care- i do care if they're like hurting themselves or something. way to make up stuff i said so that you seem right and i seem wrong. too bad that'd never happen.

anyway, i'm not trying to force my morality onto anybody else.

>>>Some friend you are.
i'm a good friend.


>>>So you admit that your strict opinions are in the way of making true friends. You only have your current friends because you can't find better ones? They are substitutes?

why can't i have true friends who aren't entirely pure without them having to be "substitutes"? work on your reasoning there.

>>>>So you really don't have real friends after all, which explains why you post here three times a day

oh, ouch that hurts. you just (tried to) diss half the ppl on this message board...apparently you don't understand that it's possible to have friends and reply to a couple of posts a few times a day.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Isn't everyone a sinner? It's whether you accept the sinful behavior or not that is the true differentiating point.

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 07:09 am: Edit

"oh. so china ppl want their country to do good because they're used to their country sucking in pretty much everything, so they feel more pride when china wins than if the u.s., which is always used to winning, wins?

why didn't ya say so in the first place."

once again you jump to conclusions. please point out where silmon said that china sucked in pretty much everything???? he/she used examples of Iraq and India and why he/she felt happy when they did good and then said "perhaps this is why....." other chinese people feel happy for china as well, just because silmon said that doesn't give you the right to assume that this is why ALL 'china ppl'(funny, i thought it was chinese) feels this way, and then to assume that its cuz china sucked at pretty much everything. IN fact doesn't silmon say at the end of his/her post that china is basically an olympic power house now??? jumping to conclusions much? and to say that china sucks in pretty much everything is just asking to get flamed ,you just went from being hypercrytical and judgemental to bordering discrimination

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 06:03 pm: Edit

>>>>>>>Isn't everyone a sinner? It's whether you accept the sinful behavior or not that is the true differentiating point.

nope. that's what christian ppl tell themselves so they don't feel so bad about sinning (..hey, everybody's doin' it....)


>>>>please point out where silmon said that china sucked in pretty much everything???


i believe his exact words were: china sucks at pretty much everything.

>>>funny, i thought it was chinese

yea, that is pretty funny.

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 06:21 pm: Edit

"I was too lazy to read all of the posts, so please excuse me for getting back on topic for a sec.

Look, I love America. America is great. However, usually America is the overdog. They are expected to win a lot of medals. When an American wins, I'm glad they beat other countries, but big whoop. Only when they are the underdogs, like at the World Cup when they beat Mexico, do I really get excited.

I feel a lot more patriotic when India does good, because they are usually the underdogs (they won 1 silver medal in Athens- for a country of 1 billion people). That's just how it is. It's always more fun when the underdogs win than when the favorite does.

The one team I was rooting for more than any other- The Iraqi soccer team.

Perhaps that's how many Chinese feel about their home country (although China is now an Olympic powerhouse). "

ahhh NO lisasimpson, i don't believe i see where he says china pretty much sucks in everything. if china's the underdog that cuz they started going to the olympics once in the 50's then stopped going until 1984, so they've only been to about 7 olympics but yet this year they were second in the number of gold medals and third overall with only like 3 gold medals behind the US. you just can't admit the fact that you are a close minded, judgemental hypercrit that jumps to conclusions and always thinks she's right even when its so obvious she is wrong.

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Wo0ot!! dwerbowy is my best friend

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

>>>>ahhh NO lisasimpson, i don't believe i see where he says china pretty much sucks in everything. if china's the underdog that cuz they started going to the olympics once in the 50's then stopped going until 1984, so they've only been to about 7 olympics but yet this year they were second in the number of gold medals and third overall with only like 3 gold medals behind the US. you just can't admit the fact that you are a close minded, judgemental hypercrit that jumps to conclusions and always thinks she's right even when its so obvious she is wrong.


OMG chinese is so impressive, i was wrong it really is a great country after all it is so wonderful that they have barely any opportunity to win but they manage to pull through with all their hard work and dedication and plus all the talent, who can forget the talent of these china ppl who are blessed with good graces and who just seem to win at everything, it's not fair chinese is such a wonderful place and they are so cool that i dont know what to say except that i am so sick with jealously that i was not born in chinese and it's not fair why can't the whole world be china than we wouldnt have all these stupid problems with democracy and free trade and constitutional rights, ppsssh who care about that stuff when u can be a chinese.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

"nope. that's what christian ppl tell themselves so they don't feel so bad about sinning..."

That's simply foolish. Are you telling me that you NEVER lie, are envious, or greedy? Or that there's a single person on this earth that hasn't been any of those things? Give me a break. We all sin, therefore we are all sinners. So, I reiterate, it's the refusal to accept our sin that therefore must be the true differentiating point.

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit

LisaSimpson, it is apparent that you have to resort to bland sarcasm as you can't really argue your position affectively. What a shame.

Candi, I agree with you on sinners. Lisa has friend who refuses to accept their sins by doing things which Lisa consider sins(smoking drink sex), yet she calls them "friends."

>>>it's also called being practical - i know i'm not going to find any decent friends who are completely "pure" in my standards.. >>>

Again, Lisa, why are you saying that you are being practical? This means that you can't find friends that fits your pure standards, and so you have to resort to substitutes which you now call friends. So again, you really have NO friends at all.

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:38 pm: Edit

Also, LisaSimpson, all these derogatory comments you make about China obviously shows that you are not very accepting after all. But correct me if I am wrong, but you were the one who said was very accepting and liberal. What happened? Personality change?

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 05:21 am: Edit

More than anything else, it shows your lack of maturity and capacity for intellectual debate. Just look at the number of immature posts you have posted, and the way you conveniently sidestep trends that are very current and very real by bringing up a few childish stereotypes. Sarcasm isn't a credible debating tactic at all, but knowing you, lisasimpson, that's how you're gonna reply to this post. Well it just makes you seem shallow and foolish that's all. Perhaps you should be at Pre-School Confidential..

By Hsun (Hsun) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:09 pm: Edit

well said about the preschool part...

By Cherrybarry (Cherrybarry) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit

pwned

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

"Also, LisaSimpson, all these derogatory comments you make about China obviously shows that you are not very accepting after all. But correct me if I am wrong, but you were the one who said was very accepting and liberal. What happened? Personality change? "

thunder77 thank you! its what physicskid first started out saying, its what i've been saying, its what we've all been saying, but like you said she just takes random lines and then argue pointlessly about it which furthur proves our point.

btw thanks for the support physicskid!

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:23 pm: Edit

>>>>>>>thanks for the support physicskid!


yea physicskid, i appreciate it

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Argument is finally over.. Whew. :)

By Carbfreenoodles (Carbfreenoodles) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit

I thought people could not make personal attacks on this board?

(ahhhhh, the theme song of escaflowne came on. i love that song)

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 08:38 pm: Edit

>>>>>> Argument is finally over.. Whew.

no its not, stupid. although i dont understand what the argument is even about....me having opinions you disagree with, so you saying my opinions are wrong...way to go

By Tongos (Tongos) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

i dont know if it is really over guys.

all i read was a bunch of highschool kids arguing with another highschool kid.

clearly lisasimpson is asking for it, but maybe the issue isnt even worth arguing.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:58 am: Edit

and then another holier-than-thou high school kid intercepting with his voice of reason to state the obvious, save the day, and ride off into the sunset with the beautiful princess.......

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 10:31 am: Edit

LisaSimpson,

If it is not over, why don't you answer the questions I asked you in the previous post? Not only do you ignore posts made against you, but you also hav to resort to sarcasm thinking that will save you. Again, the main point is you cleary have a bias against China and you are not liberal and accepting as you say. Do not try to cover up.

All you are doing Lisa is making offensive remarks and throwing out replies thinking that it will convince people you are right and they are wrong.
This thread is dead already unless you have someting intelligent to say and defend your point. Just give it up.

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:22 pm: Edit

>>>>>>> LisaSimpson

what up, brother?

>>>>If it is not over, why don't you answer the questions I asked you in the previous post?

i dont know. i forget what it is. forgive me, brother.

>>>>>>>>Not only do you ignore posts made against you,

oh, is that what you call replying to ever single line of the post? you need to work on the sat vocabulary, brother.

>>>>>but you also hav to resort to sarcasm thinking that will save you.

save = humor and you're right on the ball, brother.

>>>>Again, the main point is you cleary have a bias against China

wrong again, wrong'un. i dont have anything against chinapese in general, i just dont like it when ppl come to this country and then keep supporting their old country over america.

>>>>and you are not liberal and accepting as you say.

wrong again, brother.

>>>>Do not try to cover up.

ok, brother.


>>>All you are doing Lisa is making offensive remarks

i'm sorry if my opinions offend you, but they're still my opinions, all the same.


>>>>>throwing out replies thinking that it will convince people you are right and they are wrong.

i AM right and you ARE wrong.

>>>>>>This thread is dead already unless you have someting intelligent to say and defend your point.

what exactly IS my point? that i have a right to have opnions that you don't like. wow, that's a tough one you're arguing against.

>>>>Just give it up.

never, brother.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit

Die, thread, die!!!!!!

By Physicskid123 (Physicskid123) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Lisasimpson, you are obviously wrong. You rely on sarcasm and childish name calling as a defense, and you are OBVIOUSLY not accepting or openminded. I don't see the point in arguing with Lisasimpson since she obviously has the false "I am right no matter what" notion implanted into her head; and she can't even support her point like an intelligent human being. She is blatantly mistaken, I think we are better off letting her live her life in ignorance considering trying to convince her otherwise is a waste of time and effort. We all know she is wrong...

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Here's my previous post:

""LisaSimpson, it is apparent that you have to resort to bland sarcasm as you can't really argue your position affectively. What a shame.

Candi, I agree with you on sinners. Lisa has friend who refuses to accept their sins by doing things which Lisa consider sins(smoking drink sex), yet she calls them "friends."

>>>it's also called being practical - i know i'm not going to find any decent friends who are completely "pure" in my standards.. >>>

Again, Lisa, why are you saying that you are being practical? This means that you can't find friends that fits your pure standards, and so you have to resort to substitutes which you now call friends. So again, you really have NO friends at all. ""

I hate people who have strict conservative standard yet they cannot live up to them. You call drinking, smoking, teen sex, and homosexuals sins, but why are you friends with people who practice those behaviors and whom you consider sinners? If you accept people who do such behaviors, then you should accept the behaviors themselves and not call them sin. If you do not accept the behaviors, then how can you let them so such "sins"?

And once again, you prove my point in your previous post. You said NOTHING in it that is important, and throwing comments like "i AM right and you ARE wrong" is just plain stupid because you have noting to back you up. I could have just as easily said the same.

Unless you have something worth saying and unless you have something to back up what you are saying, I'm going to ignore this thread. This thread is dead but you can still continue your mindless chattering of "i AM right and you ARE wrong", ok?

By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit

We should just let the thread die with LisaSimpson in it if she continues her pointless rambling of I am right you are wrong with nothing to back it up.

By Sticksandstones (Sticksandstones) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

lisasimpson, i also immigrated to America from pakistan and i still do and will support pakistan in any victory, gold medals in the olympics or anything else. you dont suppport the country you were born in? almost every pakistani, indian, chinese, and many others i have met here support their native country.maybe you were too young when u moved to be nationalistic?

By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 08:13 pm: Edit

>>>>> Lisasimpson, you are obviously wrong.

no, obviously i'm right. i dont know how they do it back in china, but here in america everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

>>>You rely on sarcasm and childish name calling as a defense, and you are OBVIOUSLY not accepting or openminded.

oh yea, "brother" is such a childish name. obviously you dont know me at all, brother.


>>>>gain, Lisa, why are you saying that you are being practical?

was this the question you were talking about, brother? i said i was being practical because no matter how much i would like to be friends with ppl who are 100% pure, i know this will never ever happen because anybody i would be friends with smokes or drinks or something.


>>>I hate people who have strict conservative standard yet they cannot live up to them.

i live up to them. just because i don't force my friends to live up to them doesnt make me hypocritical - it makes me accepting.

>>>maybe you were too young when u moved to be nationalistic?

i was 5 when i moved here. i visited for a month last year.

By Tongos (Tongos) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 08:50 pm: Edit

i may be wrong
but i dont think this is about the olympics anymore. anyway, got to go eat breakfast.

lisasimpson? why are you doing this?


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