Why do people believe Jesus was a prophet, part of God, and





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Discus: College Confidential Café: 2004 Archive: Why do people believe Jesus was a prophet, part of God, and
By Waffle (Waffle) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Why do people believe Jesus was a prophet, an incarnation of God, and the Messiah?

Judaism arose from Judaism and Jesus being a prophet, incarnation of God, and messiah completely contradicts what was said by God and things in the Holy Scriptures at the time (in no way is this against Christ, I just want to know). Keep in mind that Christianity is rooted in Judaism.

As a Messiah: What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

As a prophet: A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)

As an Incarnation/Son of God: Under Judaism, "The Lord is One" is the core belief. Because of this, God has no incarnations and there cannot be a trinity.

I don't know much about Christianity, but is it possible, that the Creators of the religion tweaked the qualifications of prophecy and messiah from the hebrew scriptures and ignored the most important part of their original religion in order to have Jesus qualify as an incarnation of God, the messiah, and a prophet?

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 02:51 pm: Edit

People here are more aware than the average John Doe, so they've probably found some justification for their religious beliefs.

Still, to address your question:

Why do [most] people believe Jesus was a prophet, an incarnation of God, and the Messiah?

Because they're told it's true.

By Smhop (Smhop) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

You are SO confused. I would not even know where to begin to address your post. I am not being rude, but sincere, when I say I thnk you should research this more.

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

I don't know much about Christianity

Then you shouldn't have made that post to begin with! Do you really think you can disprove a religion with over two billion followers if you don't know about it!?

By Poison_Ivy (Poison_Ivy) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit

^ AMEN!

By Smhop (Smhop) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Maybe he is curious about it, and not trying to disprove it? I mean sometimes in order to be critical about a thing, you have to tear it apart. OP: If you are genuinely trying to learn, then go visit some of the many boards devoted to crhistianity and ask people these questions (and not in one long post). Be sincere, not challenging, and you may gain some understanding.

Remember that it is a "belief", not a fact, that you are questioning, so you cannot prove or disprove it anyway. Also, People base thier beliefs on Faith, not Fact. Respect that another person's faith may be different than yours...

and you can't argue w/ that.

Good luck

By Magoo (Magoo) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:30 pm: Edit

AHHHH...prepare for a heated debate...

By Dmitrypetrovna (Dmitrypetrovna) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:43 pm: Edit

I can't address all of your statements but...

According to Catholicism:

The risen Jesus is the Third Temple. "I shall rebild the temple in three days..."

Jesus was born in Bethlahem, the city of David. Joseph was of the House of David. Jesus belongs to the House of David as he was born to a Jewish woman who married Joseph.


As for the rest, I'm no theologian, but I'm sure any biblical scholar could give you an answer to each one of your points. It's not like you have discovered anything particularly profound. As goodchocolat pointed out, people have been studying Christianity for nearly 2000 years. This includes all of the old Jewish texts. You don't have to believe Christianity's answers, but that does not make them wrong.

By Dmitrypetrovna (Dmitrypetrovna) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit

smhop,

your answer is much better than my own.

By Desrtswimer (Desrtswimer) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

As a Mesiah

A. B. C. D. Hence Judaism and Christianity still being different today. Jews dont believe he is the Messiah because of the reasons you stated. Christians believe there will be a second comming and there those last few prophesies will be fulfilled. There are like over 300 other prophesies that he did complete, or something ridiculous like that. But your reasons are exactly why there are two different faiths today. Jews think the messiah would have changed the world right away, Christians think late. (Keep in mind my whole entire family is Jewish and I am Christian so I do know pretty much both sides of the argument.)


Jesus as a Prophet

I havent heard in Christian cicles Jesus being a prophet. Sure he predicted things to come but only cause he KNEW because he was God. its not like prophets who were told from God; he knew what would happen cause he WAS God. Again, most Jews think of Jesus as a prophet or a good guy who taught some good stuff. Its not neccessarily Christians who see him as a prophet. Can God be a prophet? He came to complete prophecy!

Decendent of David

Ummm the point is Jacob was still his father and such who decended from Kind David.


Toroh Observance

Jesus came as one to fulfill the law so that we might not be bound by law and rituals. he was showing that faith is not a bunch of things you do but believing. that the overarching commandments are to "love the lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and your neighbor as yourself." Love God and Love Others. If you read the ten commandments each one falls under one or the other of those overarching principles. He didnt say they were no longer applicable but he said that you no longer need to make sacrafices, ect, to be right with God and to cover your sin. they made sacrafices to fix sin and be right with God. Jesus said he is the ultimate sacrafice, the ultimate lamb; believe in him and you will be saved. So that is what he was talking about

Incarnation, Lord as One

Thats the thing we wil never understand. Three in One. how one God can be three people. But you know, there is a reason He is God and we are people. you cant understand everything.

and as a side note:

Why do [most] people believe Jesus was a prophet, an incarnation of God, and the Messiah?

Because they're told it's true.

I was raised in a non-practicing Jewish family. Didnt become a Christian till i was a freshman in high school. i dont pretend to know everything but trust me I can defend basic biblical beliefs (like the questions you just had). Smhop had a good point. This faith has been around for CENTURIES and it still stives on. You can disbelieve but proving it wrong will be difficult. I suggest reading "the case for Christ" Its a book written by someone who set out to disprove Christianity and BECAME a christian through it all. I have no problem answering questions that people have and its always good to be curious and to have a seeking heart. A debate over some trivial matter is something I wont get into though, as in the long run it makes absolutely no difference.

"always be prepared to give a defense for the hope that is in you."

By Bunmushroom (Bunmushroom) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Jesus was not regarded as anything special or holy at the begining of his life. He was just a carpenter and then teacher, and then he started to get a following, right?

By Stephenpmi (Stephenpmi) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 08:01 pm: Edit

He didn't start his public ministry until his early thirties. However, his arrival on earth was announced by angels a few times, and the Wise Men followed the star to bring Him gifts and worship him. (Interestingly enough, the Magi did not reach Jesus until he was a toddler in Egypt.) The Bible contains very little information about Jesus' childhood and young adult years. However, as a elementary student (we assume), Jesus' parents once found Jesus debating theology in the Temple with the priests. The one verse that pretty much describes his life from that event until adulthood is:
"And Jesus grew in wisdom, and in stature, and in favor with God and Man"

By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 08:05 pm: Edit

*dons flame suit*

By Jenesaispas (Jenesaispas) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 08:22 pm: Edit

*this suit... BURNS... better*

By Waffle (Waffle) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

I wasn’t trying to disprove a religion. I was researching on why Jews don’t believe in Jesus, and I came across a website that had information, which I pasted onto this post, hoping that I would find out why Christians think that Jesus was the Christ despite this information, from intelligent people on this board.

In researching and reading some responses, I think that the difference between Judaism and Christianity stems back to Jesus as an Incarnation of God, since I think that Jews and Christians interpret this in different ways:

“Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE.”

I think that for Christians, this is interpreted as, there is one God, but in three parts. However, for Jews, when the Torah says, “the Lord is One,” it really means that God is one incorporeal deity with no other parts. An example of this being a difference in beliefs is that if I say that God can never change the Torah, someone will say Jesus can, because he is God, which I do not believe.

I think that the religions differ in that Christians believe that belief is stronger than actions and Jews believe that actions are stronger than believing. For Judaism, I saw somewhere, though I don’t know if it was actually said by God, is something like this:

It does not matter that they believe in me, but it does matter that they keep my Torah

By Desrtswimer (Desrtswimer) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:22 am: Edit

Waffle,

Yes the main difference between Jews and Christians is the belief of Jesus as God.

However, Jews DO believe in a Messiah who will come and save them (but im not quite certain if they believe he will be part of God? Can anyone help me here?) they just dont think Jesus is God.


"In researching and reading some responses, I think that the difference between Judaism and Christianity stems back to Jesus as an Incarnation of God"

That pretty much nails it.

However, I dont know if it stems back to the "the Lord our God is ONE" or if its just because the Jewish people overwhelmingly didnt believe in Jesus when he was alive and that has stuck with their relgion. They just dont believe he fulfilled all the things and therefore is not the messiah.

and i dont think "it does not matter that they believe in me, but it does matter that they keep my torah" is a bible erse. 1. it would say the law or scriptures, not torah and 2. i dont think God would say that.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

"However, Jews DO believe in a Messiah who will come and save them"

No, Jews do not believe the Messiah is a savior, that is one fundamental difference. They do not believe people are born damned with original sin, therefore, they do not need someone to save them. They are born with a clean slate and good actions is the key, not belief in a savior, is what grants them a good next world.

By Dmitrypetrovna (Dmitrypetrovna) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:02 am: Edit

Actions are heavily stressed in Christianity. Charity, kindness, helping those in need. Jesus taught/stressed all of these through action or parables where someone else demonstrates the act. A Christian tries to LIVE like Christ taught his followers to.

By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:08 am: Edit

thats right Jlq. Although the messiah is not a huge part of our religion, the messiah is an idea of general world peace. Which includes all conflicts, between countries, people etc.

Like many other things, this is open to interpretation.
This is important: I really dont like that you are saying "jews DO believe" and "jews do not believe." I thought it was the same with christianity, but our religion is largely open to our own interpretation. So PLEASE KEEP THIS IN mind. Spirituality <i>is</i> a sensitive thing, so try to be politically correct.

By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:11 am: Edit

Dmitry same in Judiasm. Charity, community, kindness, and general morality is greatly stressed.

By Desrtswimer (Desrtswimer) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:32 am: Edit

Can you really be politically correct with spirituality? Even talking about relgion is bound to offend someone.

I apologize about the messiah thing. I thought that most jewish people depending on your interpreation were expecting a messiah who would save them. I didn't realize it was just one who would come and bring world peace.

Thank you for informing me I like to learn about other religions/faiths as much as possible.

And I dont know what you want me to say besides Jews Do believe and Jews Dont believe. I understand its open to interpretation but I thought there were several core aspects to Judaism (such as Jesus not being the Messiah) so i thought there it would be okay to say Jews dont believe he is the messiah. I guess from here on out i will careful to say "The traditional jewsish faith teaches that Jesus is not the messiah" I have no problem with people saying "christians believe and christians dont believe" im sorry if it offended you.

I didnt realize there was no original sin (there is much i have to learn about judaism--and im interested in it because it is my heritage--so I thank you for informing me about it).


I think its interesting how closly related Judaism is to Christianity yet how different they are in so many ways (besides the obvious Jesus way)

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:39 am: Edit

Isnt heaven (at least in protestantism) granted by faith in Jeses alone, and that faith replaced actions during the reformation.

By Desrtswimer (Desrtswimer) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:42 am: Edit

The first part of your statement

"isn't heaven granted by faith in Jesus alone"

is correct, at least in protestantism. Not in catholocism. But remember faith is demonstrated by following Jesus so therefore actions too but no you cant work your way into heaven (according to protestantism)

I dont understand your second part about reformation.

By Smhop (Smhop) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:48 am: Edit

Certain reformation philosphers tried to reconcile the concept of 'salvation by faith alone', as you suggest. But, its doesn't work for most christians... "Oh jesus, I believe you will redeem me as soon as I commit this atrocious sin".... is hardly a recipe for getting into heaven!

The argument is that we are sinners, yadda yadda: so long as we believe that God forgives us, its okay to sin, merely b/c we believe that God will forgive us... See, it begs the question, its circular logic.

Most, the Catholic Church especially, termed this "a license to sin", and rejected it out of hand. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone protestant or otherwise who believes along these lines. The closest you will come to it is the protestant belief of "hate the sin, love the sinner"... which means, that yes, even though you've sinned, God will forgive you... but that is not the same as what was being put forth during the reformation... basically saying " go ahead and sin all you want, you'll be forgiven anyway"

By Desrtswimer (Desrtswimer) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:57 am: Edit

Smhop,

Thanks for clearing that up for me! Although, i confess I did have to read it twice.

Okay most protestants or biblical bound or okay lets just say lots of church teach this and i believe that you cant earn your way into heaven (how good is good enough) and that the standard is perfection, which we obviously cant have because everyone messes up and sins.

However, belief bears the "fruit of the spirt" which is love, kindess, gentleness, self-control, ect. and Jesus said "if you love me you will keep my commandments." Paul also said that "faith without works is dead."

So the point is faith is what saves you but a natural reaction to faith is to strive to be more christlike and therefore live your faith and try to not sin.

so heaven is granted purely through faith but faith naturally results in works.


So i wouldnt say most believe what they did during the reformation which is go and sin all you want cause obviously that is *not* pleasing to God. I cant answer anymore about the reformation cause i didnt even know what it was!

By Smhop (Smhop) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 03:12 am: Edit

Yes, many back then did try to say "go sin all you want"-- but those thoughts are not what lasted into modern times. Where you said, "so heaven is granted purely through faith but faith naturally results in works." is very accurate.

The reformation was begun bc the Catholic Church had become very corrupt and politically powerful. Many wanted to bring God and faith to a simpler state, they wanted to go back to "the word" alone, and not go by all the cannonical teachings of the Roman Cath Church.
It was a noble idea, for sure... but it spun widely out of control. Some of the "reformers" went way way over board and became very secular... others re-intepreted biblical teachings to suit themselves, and others did a decent job of making changes. A whole lot of schism (breaking up of the church) occured during the reformation.. not all of it good and not all of it bad.

The Roman Cath church has tried in modern times to redefine the errors of its past (get over some of the middle ages politics etc)... they have come very very far... unfortunately, most protestants know very little about catholocism and vice versa... so its hard to make any headway.

Meanwhile, the protestant faiths have continued to schism even within themselves... making many many different sects of protestantism... some remain close to catholicism (lutheranism. espiscopalian) other are quite far (american baptist, mormons, 7th day adventists) .

In it all, what ppl should remember is that despite thier purely philosophical differences, they all share ONE thing in common... and that one commonality is the thing you wrote above.""so heaven is granted purely through faith (in Jesus) but faith naturally results in works."

In other words, keep faith in Jesus, and try to be a good christian... it can be that simple if you want it to.

By Smhop (Smhop) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 03:33 am: Edit

For the Jewish people who are wondering why Christians accept jesus and etc... the answer is very simple. God established a testment, a covenent (agreement) with his choosen people, the jews... these are the writings of the old testement. Christians belive that this is the old law; God's law up til Roman times. Christians believe that God sent Jesus, as a messiah, to save us... and that God established a new, second covenent with his people. (the new testament.. the testment of faith)

Facts: Christians and Jews believe in the SAME GOD. It is only a matter of whether one accepts the new testement or not. If you do not accept it, you remain solidly Jewish, if you do accept it, you are Christian. Many jews find the new testement contradicts the old, thus they cannot accept it. Christians say it does not matter that it contradicts, bc it is God's 'new' word.
This new word revolves around the acceptance of Christ as savior. I do not think Jews believe we need a savior (corect me if I am wrong!) but Christians feel we must have needed one if God sent Jesus... who proved to the Christians by dying and resurecting that God loved us, and etc etc.

BTW, Muslims believe in the same God as well-- but they do NOT believe that Jews are Gods chosen people, they believe thier tribe is the chosen one. Hindus and native Americans believe in many Gods, rather than "one true God"... Budhists live live through philosophy, not religion, and there are other religions I wont touch on here.

Also note that Christ does not absolve the Christians of the concept of original sin... that Baptism absolves that... prostestants, by the way, do NOT believe in original sin.. and that is bc it is very poorly understood by most people-- it is actually a very difficult concept, and even most Catholics get it wrong (wont get into it further here)

Not too toot my own horn or anything, but though I am not an overly religious person, I have very strong faith in my beliefs... there was a time in my life that I questioned them, and so Inow have lots and lots of knowledge on various christian teachings-- sort of a hobby of mine...

By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit

Chief Wiggum...don't eat the CLUES!

.....BURNS....suit...look!

Look at Burns' suit! Geesh!

Twin Peaks references in the Simpsons are funny...still

*puts on another flame suit*

By Rachelvishy (Rachelvishy) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

Dsrt-

Don't worry I wasnt angry or anything, haha. You're right, its difficult to not offend anyone, just I wanted everyone to know this fact: what's important about judiasm is that a lot of times it's ambiguous and completely depends upon your own beliefs, at least in my sector. I do not know anyone who believes in the messiah out of the 100+jews I know. So that's why I wanted to point it out, just so you'll learn something about Judiasm. :)

By Annakat (Annakat) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

much of christianity is based on the polytheistic paganism that came before it, isn't it?

and isn't the religious right "very corrupt and politically powerful" today? just what do they do with all that money they raise?

i watched a documentary on the 2002 election in texas, and a republican incumbent congressman who lost the election quoted scripture bitterly and venomously at the guy who beat him. is this what the bible is meant for?

By Smhop (Smhop) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

much of christianity is based on the polytheistic paganism that came before it, isn't it?


No, thats not quite right... I thnk what you are referring to is the time when Constantine tried to encourage the pagans to come to christianity... as they converted, they brought with them some of thier customs... but those customs became christianized. For example, decorating the Xmas tree is pagan,,,, but it is done is celebration of christs' bday... Of the very very few pagan customs that exist, most seem to be around the Xmas holiday. This has nothing to do with Christianity as a faith, nor its basic tennents, by the way.

If the religious right were corrupt and powerful as you put it... we would not have liberal polistics such as legalized abortion, etc. No, they dont have much power.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Fine, I guess not all christians believe faith alone in Jesus is redeeming, but isnt it right that for the most part, faith in jesus is a requirment for not being damned and for going to heaven. This is the main contrast I was pointing out with Judaism. Judaism holds any person can go to heaven, Jewish or not, as long as he hold the 7 laws of Noah:

"Therefore my judgment is that we don't trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God ..... For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols...." -- (Acts 15:19, 28-29).
"Seven commandments were the sons of Noah commanded: (1) concerning adjudication, (2) and concerning idolatry, (3) and concerning blasphemy, (4) and concerning sexual immorality, (5) and concerning bloodshed, (6) and concerning robbery, (7) and concerning a limb torn from a living animal" -- (Talmud Sanhedrin.56a).

By Nhlgoalie (Nhlgoalie) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 04:28 pm: Edit

Why do people believe Jesus was a prophet, an incarnation of God, and the Messiah?

Why do people believe the Backstreet Boys can sing well?

Why do people think that George Bush is the most qualified American to be president?

People are stupid. Don't ask questions.

Look up "bible contradictions" on google, a lot of the contradictions cited aren't really contradictions, but you'll find a good number (even in genesis) that are blatantly obvious.

This said, anyone who wants to put faith in something that has no factual basis is encouraged to do so.

By Desrtswimer (Desrtswimer) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 08:43 pm: Edit

"Also note that Christ does not absolve the Christians of the concept of original sin... that Baptism absolves that"

Certain sects believe that, one of which is the Church of Christ (I believe...not the mormon one). I however attend a nondenomincational church and we do not believe that baptism absolves you of everything. I believe it is an outward demonstration of an inward change that already occured. Christ alone absolves you.

Just wanted to point that out.

There will always be people that say there are contradictions in the bible. Most of the time it is because you need to research more and just dont understand sometimes.

"People are stupid. Don't ask questions."

"This said, anyone who wants to put faith in something that has no factual basis is encouraged to do so. "

That was just blatantly mean and serves no purpose. The OP wants to learn about different faiths/religions, no problem with that. I dont call atheists or other religions stupid for either believing we formed from nothing or for believing we will once have our own planet and be our own God. I dont agree with them but I respect them. That's the least you could do also.

By Annakat (Annakat) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 12:29 pm: Edit

concerning legalized abortion . . .

would one of you christians please give an argument against abortion based on the law, the constitution, and individual rights rather than on religious beliefs? i really am confused as why people can't make the distinction between legal notions and religious ones. they're supposed to be separate in this country, remember? so please . . . someone . . . i really want to know.

regarding pagan rituals . . . every major holiday is based on the pagan calendar, not just christmas, but easter as well. most major cathedrals in europe are built on the foundations or ruins of pagan temples. christianity itself is a cult of relics, another pagan notion.

By Stephenpmi (Stephenpmi) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 01:07 pm: Edit

would one of you christians please give an argument against abortion based on the law, the constitution, and individual rights rather than on religious beliefs? i really am confused as why people can't make the distinction between legal notions and religious ones. they're supposed to be separate in this country, remember? so please . . . someone . . . i really want to know.

Pro-life Christians (yes, there are some pro-choice ones) and pro-lifers see no difference between killing a baby 2 weeks after conception and two weeks after birth. Doesn't that make sense at all--legally, murder is wrong, and because abortion is a form of murder, abortion = murder = breaking the law. As far as a woman's right, I think that is a moot point. Regardless of whether or not she planned to have a child or not, unless raped, she did put herself in a position where pregnancy was possible. I consider abortion to be akin to putting $1000 on a hand of poker, losing badly, then getting your money back without consequence. If the child was born, the woman certainly does not have a right to kill it. How is abortion any different? I just think that there is a fundamental difference between Pro-lifers and Pro-choicers on when life begins. Also, for pro-choicers, just as a side point, I do recommend that you do some searching for some abortion resources on the internet. There is a surprisingly large percentage of women who have had abortions who go into depression and regret what they did.

By Annakat (Annakat) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 01:55 pm: Edit

are a fertilized egg and the resulting cell growth a baby after 2 weeks of conception?

you're right. there is a fundamental difference in beliefs about when "life" begins. but these are beliefs, not absolute truths. and the pro-life beliefs are based on religous beliefs and teachings--also not absolute truths. abortion = murder? that is an emotional stretch and a leap, but really not a compelling one since it is just a belief and not an absolute truth. there is a surprisingly large percentage of pro-lifers who support the death penalty . . . so, how does that fit in your belief regarding life?

all we can really go on is the law, the constitution, reason, and individual rights--not religious beliefs.

regarding depression . . . it is caused by a lot of things. anyone who undergoes surgery or medical treatment is susceptible to depression. there is a surprisingly large percentage of women who experience depression (post-partum) after having a child. i'm not saying that having a child makes you depressed--i'm saying a lot of things cause depression. abortion is not unique in this way.

By Hayden (Hayden) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:00 am: Edit

Okay, well I'll take a shot at being a total heretic to both sides, the pro-lifers and the pro-choice !

I do believe in the separation of Church & State that Jefferson always referred to. And until science can prove conclusively that life begins at conception, it remains a religious conviction. I believe that individuals must choose for themselves, and therefore I'm pro Choice.

However, I'm also a believing, born-again Christian. I can't know for sure if life begins at conception. So I say to myself, If life doesn't begin at conception, then it probably doesn't matter to God if I am pro Choice or Pro Life. But if life does begin at inception, and I vote the other way, then I think God will care a lot. Since I love God, I don't want to risk it.

So although I think each person has to make her/his own decision, as for me, I'm not taking the chance on being wrong with God.

By Stephenpmi (Stephenpmi) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:39 am: Edit

The death penalty fits in very easily with most Protestant churches (note that the Catholic church is against the death penalty). There are instances in Scripture where God talks about the punishment being commensurate to the crime, and even instances where God has killed someone for their sins. Babies have no choice to as whether they are aborted or not...a person who chooses to commit a henious crime is asking for it if he or she gets caught.

This is an interesting site for more on the matter:
http://w1.155.telia.com/~u15509119/ny_sida_6.htm

By Annakat (Annakat) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 05:12 pm: Edit

what about "babies" that result from rape? how do you justify "murdering" them if this is your true belief, that "babies have no choice to as whether they are aborted or not"? (see your earlier posts).

i find it odd that you can qualify "life", which you claim to want to protect, in this way. are you saying that some lives are better than others? if so, then what gives anyone the right to proclaim which ones are worth saving and which ones are not?

depending on the bible, something that was written thousands of years ago, for answers to contemporary social questions and dilemmas is unreasonable to me. we laugh at social notions from a hundred years ago, 50 years ago, 20 years ago. but people interpret ideas from 2000 years ago LITERALLY? where's the reason, the logic in that?

i also don't believe that if there is a god, that he or she is punitive, mean-spirited, waiting for us to screw up. the idea of not wanting to be on the wrong side of god seems unnecessary if you truly believe that god is all powerful and all knowing. why wouldn't he or she just make us behave they way he or she wants us to? god didn't put "fearing him" into the notion of god---human beings throughout history did, to gain power and to justify their actions and beliefs. and they still try to do that today.

By Hepidy (Hepidy) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit

OK next topic Republicans vs. Democrats.......GO

By Annakat (Annakat) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 05:48 pm: Edit

i really want to know the answers to the questions i asked.

By Cornellhopeful (Cornellhopeful) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 06:21 pm: Edit

the Christian answer to why God doesn't make us behave the way way he wants us to is b/c he gave us free will. You choose whether to believe in God or not. That's where Heaven and Hell come in. If you believe in God and worship him, etc., then you will live eternity with him(Heaven). If you do not believe in him, etc., then you'll live eternity without him(Hell). Heaven and Hell might not necessarily be places(as in a physical sense), but states of being(this is the Catholic view).

The problem here with all the differences on abortion and the death penalty, etc. is that we all claim to be the true Christian church, or at least part of the umbrella of Christianity. The problem I see(as well as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the two most ancient Churches)with this is that the true Christian Church(es) should be the one that continues the beliefs of the first Christians. We have historical documents, the Bible, the writings of the early Christians, etc. to see what they believed. The fact is that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches continue the beliefs of the early Christians. You simply can't invent new beliefs and claim that they are Christian. As the Bible says "the Church is the Pillar and ground of Truth". The problem with people interpreting the Bible is that they come up with all different kinds of interpretations. You have the Jehovah's Witnesses claiming that God isn't a Trinity, and you have the Lutherans who claim that he is, both basing their claims on the Bible. They obviously can't both be true. This is why we have the thousands of denominations. And this is why God left us the Church to continue the beliefs of the first Christians. God is not the author of confusion.

On Paganism and Christianity: There are many similarities between all religions. It is the Catholic belief that all religions have some element of Truth. Maybe not the whole truth(reserved for apostolic Christianity), but some. This is how people who existed before Christianity and Judaism can be saved. So, Paganism is not inherently evil. There are many symbols in Paganism that can be used in Christianity, which is why they were adopted. It allowed for easier conversion of the people. Easter's name does come from a goddess Eostre, and it is celebrated on a similar date as the Pagan holiday, however that's it. Christmas holds similar imagery to Pagan winter festivals, but we celebrate the birth of Christ.

By Mruncleramos (Mruncleramos) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Why are there so many people educated in the basic scientific principles directly contradicting creationism yet continue to believe in it? http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

By Stephenpmi (Stephenpmi) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:55 pm: Edit

what about "babies" that result from rape? how do you justify "murdering" them if this is your true belief, that "babies have no choice to as whether they are aborted or not"? (see your earlier posts).

<<<<< Morally, I'd find it tough to allow abortion in any case. Believe it or not, regardless of how you want to view God, He knows when someone is going to be raped--and he knows when a baby might have birthdefects...to abort these babies is to take life into our own hands and to abandon all faith in God. The only reason I stated that rape could possibly be grounds for abortion is because I feel that it is easier to justify politically...a compromise if you will.

By M87 (M87) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:09 am: Edit

"BTW, Muslims believe in the same God as well-- but they do NOT believe that Jews are Gods chosen people, ->they believe thier tribe is the chosen one. <-"

....

No they don't.

Muslims are not a "tribe", they are people from -many- ethnic backgrounds who happen to share many similar beliefs, specifically in regards to spirtuality.

There are no "chosen people". When the time comes, everyone is judged based on their own actions, and the consequences that have stemed from them.

By Berta_Mac (Berta_Mac) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:28 am: Edit

I'd like to offer my personal viewpoint, one that I have not seen mentioned here yet. I do not see how it is possible for me to determine whether a man who lived over 2,000 years ago, a man who I and many other have only read about, is God himself. I do feel that there is a God out there; to believe there is nothing greater than you is this universe seems to be a self-centered and overall empty idea, although that is not to say people who do not believe in God are bad people. I realize this all goes back to faith and whether you choose to believe or not, but I still do not see how a human being can possibly say that Jesus was the son of God anymore than any other person in history. It seems to me that it is an accepted belief only because people wrote about it, but then again, many other ideas in many other religions were written about and those ideas seem just as valid to me as the idea that Jesus is the son of God. Therefore, I personally believe that all religions that believe faith in God and the love of mankind and the desire not to sin are the key to heaven (or whatever you may call it) are essentially worshipping the same thing. Even in the Hindu religion (someone mentioned something about this earlier) in which Gods are worshipped, it seems to be generally accepted and generally acknowledged that all these Gods are part of one universal God, all a part of one universe itself.

I would also like to say that I am no expert on religions nor do I claim to be; I certainly do not know as much as others do and perhaps as much as I should. And I do not even have my own beliefs completely sorted out. But this is just how I feel.

By Stephenpmi (Stephenpmi) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 09:31 am: Edit

I'd like to offer my personal viewpoint, one that I have not seen mentioned here yet. I do not see how it is possible for me to determine whether a man who lived over 2,000 years ago, a man who I and many other have only read about, is God himself. I realize this all goes back to faith and whether you choose to believe or not, but I still do not see how a human being can possibly say that Jesus was the son of God anymore than any other person in history.

>>> As Christians, there are a few main reasons why Jesus was accepted as the Son of God (The Jews are still waiting):

a. Prophecy: Jesus Christ fulfilled every Old Testament prophecy concerning the Son of God:
http://www.remnantofgod.org/Jesus.htm

b. We worship Jesus as God because he was perfect (never sinned--something that we accept by FAITH) and because he rose from the dead (something that we also accept by FAITH--but is also proven by Roman historians).

By Hayden (Hayden) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Annakat, what I said may have come out wrong, so I'm sorry and I'll clarify: I want to be right with God, not because I'm afraid of him punishing me, but simply because I love him.

If I know he wants me to be good, it's wrong to thumb my nose at him and say that I'll do what I want, and he has to forgive me anyway.

What a lot of people don't take into account is that God has free will just as we do (in his image). Sometimes we think if we do wrong, he has to forgive us. But we don't own God. He can make his own decisions. He has promised to forgive us if we truly want his forgiveness, and I have faith in that.

As for your question about God simply decreeing that we act the way he wants us to: Would you want to be married to one of the Stepford Wives? Well, God doesn't want us to be a bunch of Stepford wives.


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