|By Simba (Simba) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:09 pm: Edit|
Can West News Services, owners of several Canadian newspapers including the National Post as well as the Global Television Network commissioned a series of polls to determine how young people feel about the issues that were facing the country’s voters. Dubbed "Youth Vote 2004", the polls, sponsored by the Dominion Institute and Navigator Ltd. were taken with a view to getting more young people involved in the political process.
In one telephone poll of teens between the ages of 14 and 18, over 40 per cent of the respondents described the United States as being "evil". That number rose to 64 per cent for French Canadian youth.
|By Smhop (Smhop) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit|
I wonder who was polled... I mean, where is the substance in this pole? 40% of those polled... and who were they? Where they RANDOMLY poled? Or, were they poled from a certain subset?
|By Geodude666 (Geodude666) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit|
evil? hear hear!
|By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 03:49 pm: Edit|
And it's so easy when you're evil...this is the life you see, the devil tips his hat to me. I do it all because I'm evil, and I do it all for free. Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need.
Can anyone name the song and/or artist?
|By Alejandro (Alejandro) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit|
most people in mexico think america is evil...and now ask iraqi people what they think of you...
|By Ticklemepink (Ticklemepink) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit|
Amen to that poll... I had Canadian friends who despite America and have HUGE Canadian pride. One of them hates American people with the exception of me haha
|By Nutriamorada (Nutriamorada) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 06:55 pm: Edit|
I hope they can discriminate between typical American people and American government...
|By Chapter322 (Chapter322) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit|
They can't (or don't)...
P.S. Maybe Americans are sort of evil... The song Operate by Peaches is being played at every party I attend... It totally has an evil American vibe.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 08:13 pm: Edit|
alejandro, why do so many mexicans leave their homes to enter an evil contry. I would never go choose to leave my home and move to an evil country.
|By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 08:30 pm: Edit|
For all the people in other countries that talk bullsh*t about America, how many of them will refuse the chance to come and become a citizen here? Very few.
|By Geodude666 (Geodude666) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 08:32 pm: Edit|
|By Alejandro (Alejandro) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 10:10 pm: Edit|
Consider making money an option? people here have no options as for jobs, the mexican field is hideous (I drive through miles of fields everyday to go to school/town), and these people have families to feed.
So now you tell me, you have 4 children, age 22, no job, mexican field is dead, and you meet a coyote that tells you he can get you a job in the states to feed your family. The fact that mexicans go to the states to work has nothing to do with the fact of whether or not they hate the country, but rather due to need.
You would never choose to leave to a country that you hate right? Well thats because you have a computer, a comfortable life (As rich or not u might be, my guess is that you arent unemployed and having to feed empty mouths, otherwise you woulndn't be posting here), you aren't given false promises, etc...Dont compare your situation and circumstances to that of the thousands of poor mexican workers...
Thunder, I would...but your point is true that many people desperately need that green card. That does not take away the fact that they might disagree with the "american way"
|By Stephable (Stephable) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:25 am: Edit|
Chapter 232, I take offense to that remark about Canadian youth being unable to differentiate between American policy and American citizens! You're making a demeaning blanket statement about a couple million people. As a Canadian, I know many other young people who are disenchanted or disgusted by some of the aspects of American society. Sure, there are some kids I know who take it a bit far, but they tend to be the immature idiots and they are not in the majority. Most teenagers go through that whole "the world is evil and corrupt" phase, and Canadians youth are in a unique position that lends itself to seeing America as evil. We are so close to America; we are incredibly familiar with its products, its media, its current events, and yet we are not part of it, so we lack that patriotic pride that can make it difficult for Americans (or any other nation, for that matter) to see the problems of their own country. So yes, some Canadian kids do take American hate way too far, but it's just a form of that society-hating phase that all teens go through, and the vast majority of Canadians would be as civilized to Americans as they would be to each other.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 02:35 am: Edit|
alejandro, obviously they dont hate america because as you said, America gives them an opportunity to become economicly more successful and happy. I wouldn't hate a country that gives me such a wonderful free and prosperous economy, unlike places such as socialist places like Mexico.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 02:46 am: Edit|
An interesting question is why is Mexico unable to provide economic success -- whether it is the chief reason or not, the United States has had quite an impact.
Dependency theory argues that the third world owes much of it's suffering to the economic giants of North America and Europe. I am not saying that this is correct, but it's something to ponder. Actually I have written a paper on this in terms of Latin America and it is as widely accepted a theory as any other.
In summation, just because they provide a higher degree of prosperity does not mean that they are "good" perse.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:05 am: Edit|
it means they are good in that aspect, unless an opportunity to prosper is not what you want from your country. Perhaps alejandro was refering to mexicans who hate us because of the colors of our flag. But those that come here to become richer do not hate us for economic reasons unless they hate becoming more prosperous.
I think much of the world resents the US because we are the best. We are the richest and most powerful. No other nation affords their citizens the freedom to become successful and freedom to do with their money as they please without the deadening hand of the gov. We have done some very good things for the world, including freeing Europe from Hitler and the Soviet Communists. People are jealous of success. Sure the US has some imperfections in its history, but no other country has done as much good for the world or their own citizens as a whole.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:12 am: Edit|
There has been a high degree of exploitation as well that should not be overlooked. Many argue that our prosperity has been on the backs of other nations. Also, I agree w/ the WWII comment but the Cold War (outside Europe) was really destructive to much of the world b/c of America's actions (see Africa, southeast Asia, and Latin America). I think the US has done a lot of good, but the negative impacts have been greater than most Americans know and shouldn't be excused because of success. To be frank, they warrant some of the distrust (I won't go as far as hate) that the rest of the world has towards the United States.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:25 am: Edit|
No other country in the world ACTS (not just talks) to protect and enforce decency and against evil as much as the US. Canada would not take a leading or even a major role against Hitler, the US did. Who stepped up to the plate in ww1? Not Canada, the US. Who led the liberation of Kuiate? Not Candada, the US. Who is the biggest funder of UN humanitarian missions? Not Candada, the US. Who was the only country willing to take an active role against the spread of the Soviet Union, whether or not u agree with every single front the battle was fought on? Not Canada, the US. Which country affords the most freedom to their citizens, without gov control of your pocket book? Not Canada, the US. Which citazins enjoy the greater avg standard of life? Not Canada, the US.
The US is the most active force for good in this world. Sure it may have done some things that were not the best choice, but at least it doesnt stand on the sidelines during great evil. Doing nothing about and tolerating evil and injustice is almost as bad as committing the evil itself.
|By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:32 am: Edit|
|By Stephable (Stephable) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:03 am: Edit|
Canada was in both WWI and WWII from day 1, unlike the U.S. It took the US several years and attacks on their own citizens (Luisitania in WWI, Pearl Harbour in WWII) to join up. (In the case of WWII, one might say they stood "on the sidelines during great evil" until 1942). When they entered, they may have entered in greater numbers and in greater force, but that's simply a matter of population and resources. Canadians contributed greatly in both of those wars..think Vimy Ridge in WWI, Juno Beach in WWII. In fact, certain European nations (Belgium and the Netherlands, I believe) hold a special place in their heart of Canadians because of their work there is WWII.
As for Kuwaite, that was a case of America trying to fix a mess THEY CAUSED in the first place. And America didn't orchestrate the downfall of the Soviet Union, the pitfalls of Soviet society did.
As for "greatest standard of life," I'll just say that in the UN's reports for 2003, US and Canada ranked neck in neck for at 7th and 8th respectively for Most Liveable Country. Note the neither is first.
As much as Canadians, especially Canadian youth, may despair of certain aspects of American - and our own - culture, we celebrate many other aspects. But to say that we are jealous, and then explain all the ways that the US is better....no way. Each culture and nation-state has is valuable in a different way...we Canadians know the value of our nation as we respect the value of other nations.
PS: Your post displays the exact kind of attitude that Canadian teens were associating with Americans when they described America as evil
|By Crazylicious (Crazylicious) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:43 am: Edit|
Also think about the population difference.
The population of California is the population of the whole country of Canada (which is bigger than the US!).
This makes a difference in standard of living, polls, public opinion, etc vs US.
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 09:04 am: Edit|
Well said Stephable- I am proud of Canada and the roll we hold within the world. We are known as the peacekeepers and were present in both world wars as soon as help was needed not just when it had affected our country and I am proud of the many soldiers, including my friends who are over seas in Afganistan and other countries cleaning up the messes left behind by others .
|By Voodoochile (Voodoochile) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:02 am: Edit|
Canada = peacekeepers?
Anyway, how can an entire country be evil? There are plenty of little girl, puppy dogs and bunny rabbits in the US. Think about the bunny rabbits, dammit!
|By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:29 am: Edit|
There is way too much anti-americanism in this thread. I live in America and love it, that's all I know.
|By Mattman (Mattman) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:43 am: Edit|
Why would Canada differentiate between hating the American people and American government when people here say they hate France, Iraq, or Afghanistan? We're no better than they are.
|By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit|
Yeah, b-ee-otch, think about the fricken' bunny rabbits! Also:
CANADA IS THE EVILZORZ j00 n00bzorz. U n0 c teh trixynez of teh h0bbitzor C/\/auks!
"Canada is like a loft apartment over a really great party."- Robin Williams
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:23 pm: Edit|
In response to the "anti-americanism" -- what is wrong with holding our country to a higher standard? You can still love the country and be critical -- there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Nicely done Stephable.
Actually America has not done as much as you think unless it involves self-interest. It really has done very little in terms of human rights around the world. This does not mean that other countries have been more active, but it's time to dispel the myth that the US has been the great savior to many people.
Also, I find in funny that you are using the WWII argument considering Roosevelt was a top reason the US got involved and yet you probably hate him as a president b/c of his socialist-like reforms.
I'm not arguing that Canada should hate America by the way, but it's pretty damn important to understand why.
|By Geodude666 (Geodude666) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 02:03 pm: Edit|
u know ur cool when you talk like that, Hunter1985
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 02:10 pm: Edit|
No other country gives as much to humanitarian aid per capita as the US does.
stephable, how did we create Saddam's invasion of Kuiate? And we did hasten the downfall of Communism. We spent them into collapse because they had to keep up with our weapons and sdi. They also collapsed because of eastern european countries in rebellion and discontent, and the US was the main stimulent of anti-communism in eastern europe with our humantarian aid and anti-commi activities. I am not saying Canada is bad, in fact I think Canada is one of the better countries in the world because they are not tainted with a history of colonialism like Europe is, but I think the US is the most active moral force throughout the world in history.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit|
I think that it really isn't going above and beyond for the richest nation in the world to give the most humanitarian aid.
What about supporting Pol Pot and Hussein? You can throw money wherever you want, but I don't think that overshadows real actions, which show that the US really isn't concerned when it comes down to it.
We can argue over the how the Cold War ended, but both sides have legitimate historigraphical opinions so you aren't really going to get anywhere.
Also, I see that you have a problem with colonialism, but then what is your opinion of neo-colonialism, which the United States was a participant in.
|By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:54 pm: Edit|
i m teh 1337zorz wit teh 1337 skllyz j00 n00bzorz, i haxxorz j00 wit teh 133 gearez! pwn'd j00 n00b!
It's all in fun.
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit|
Voodoochile " Canada = peacekeepers?
Canada has a long and proud history of peacekeeping throughout the world and those peacekeepers work with the United Nations to maintian as some peace in the world.
First off , how accurate is this poll? Second off, saying that Canadain's can't tell the difference between American citizens and it's Governemnt is like saying Americans think all Canadians live in igloos. It's a gernalization.
I am proud of my country and don't personnally think America is evil and I just hope this thread doens't get to Anti-Canada
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:58 pm: Edit|
as a % of gdp, we give the most to humanitarian aid, so its not just cause we are the richest. And we are not the richest nation. The richest are the small arab oil countries whose revenues per capita are much greater. But the government/monarchies take all of it through socialism and dont use it for humanitarian purposes, unless you consider the funding of terrorists humanitarian.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:05 pm: Edit|
I guess I have higher standards for the United States, and I do consider our humanitarian aid as noteworthy. This is something I really have no complaint about. My complaint is in the nation's actions in governments it has supported becaust of self-interest. I don't necessarily believe throwing money at the problem makes up for it, but it is better than nothing.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:09 pm: Edit|
I am not saying the US is perfect, and we have blundered (slavery, entering ww2 late...), I am saying overall no other country has done as much good.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:14 pm: Edit|
And I'm saying that we should strive to do better regardless of the rest of the world, and I don't think that's what is happening.
|By Chavi (Chavi) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:26 pm: Edit|
Back to Alejandro - Just want to be sure I understand you correctly. So you're saying that the Mexican people are hypocrites?
|By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:56 pm: Edit|
Can we stop talking about the past and look to the future. You view certain events in certain ways and looking back on it, the events become just how you percieve them. Something you percieve to be a great thing, someone else could percieve as a blunder.
Isn't it true that most, if not every country operates under self-interest. It's a darwinistic world, anyway you look at it. Who can you really trust? If you can't trust in your own country...I trust in America. I believe it's important to help people in your OWN community and not to worry about other communities, look to the Native American amamdments.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 06:12 pm: Edit|
I'm disappointed that you don't have any concern with the rest of the world, but I guess ignorance is bliss and out of sight is out of mind. I guess I just care about humanity as a whole more than just a selective group. I challenge you Savedbythebell7 to read about something like Rwanda and feel nothing besides "oh well, at least its not us" -- I really think it's impossible, but maybe you are just heartless.
Also the past is unbelievably important because it tells us about how we got to where we are. I agree with the perception comment for the most part except I don't think it's true for everything. How can you perceive supporting Pol Pot in any way besides a disregard for the people of Cambodia?
You are right that everyone acts out of self-interest, but that does not make it all right. Like I've said before, I have higher standards.
|By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 06:27 pm: Edit|
thats because it is
|By Alejandro (Alejandro) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:40 pm: Edit|
Jlg, how many mexicans have you spoken to? Of course they dislike the states, they are treated like animals, they are given the worst jobs...not to mention the horrible crimes that go on in the border. Come to mexico, spend a summer (or three years like me) talk to ppl, and then get back at me
Chavi, hypocrites are people that do something and say another. Mexicans are driven to this situation by their own government. They dislike the united states and their attitude towards them, and yet have no choice but to go there and make a living.
It's incredible how many generalizations are being made on this thread
|By Stephable (Stephable) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit|
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Gidget. You are right about Canada's peacekeeping role, but I feel it's somewhat fallen off in recent years. Maybe the new gov't will help us get that back on track. Regardless, there are many Canadians in the military out there fighting the good fight, and I'm proud of them too!
Jlq, America created the mess in Kuwait by backing Iraq during the war in Iran, basically throwing money at Hussein so that he'd overthrow the Ayatollah in Iran. Hussein was then powerful and experienced and confident, in large part to his alliance with the US.
You may have a point about US economic pressure ending Eastern European communism, but the arms race caused tons of problems in and of itself. And I don't think we've seen a fraction of the problems all of those stored nukes are going to cause. When you're operating on a policy of "mutually assured destruction" - shouldn't that name alone tell you that the whole affair is a really, really bad idea.
As for humanitarian aid, I just read some stats that put the vast majority of America's aid going to Israel - not a 3rd world country at all, not to mention that giving aid to that one particular country infuriates and alienates a huge (Muslim) section of the world.
Thanks for your respectful remarks about Canada. Believe me, our history can be ugly too. I certainly don't feel that America is evil, though I disagree with its actions sometimes. But it's in an awkward position, as the world's largest power, that no other nation has really ever experienced, so we can't really say that we'd do things different, since we have no idea what it's like. You have a lot to be proud of, in your country.
As for the person who posted the Robin Williams quote, I find it interesting that the quote in attributed to him, as his field of expertise, American comedy, would be exponentially poorer without the contributions of Canadian comics....Canada plays a huge role in Canadian comedy
|By Alejandro (Alejandro) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:49 pm: Edit|
Canada plays a huge role in Canadian comedy
i should hope so
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 12:02 am: Edit|
Alejandro -- I think he means Canada plays a huge role in the making fun of Canada.
|By Mrbesch (Mrbesch) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 12:38 am: Edit|
"how many mexicans have you spoken to? Of course they dislike the states, they are treated like animals, they are given the worst jobs...not to mention the horrible crimes that go on in the border. "
Alejandro, mexicans arent the only people who get the worst jobs. What about Puerto Ricans, Haitians, El Salvadorians, etc.? Hell, blacks are still persecuted and theyve been living in this country for almost as long as whites (though things have improved a lot). Not only that, don't act like Americans have some sort of vendetta against Mexicans and hence give them the worst jobs. What do they expect? If you want to have a high standard of living, you need to be educated, and most mexicans arent. In fact, besides asians, almost all immigrants are uneducated. That is the case for other countries as well -if you aren't educated, you won't get a good job to start with. That's not because Americans are evil, it's because the world demands it. If mexicans were going into coutnries like france, germany, canada, etc, theyd be in the same situation in that they wouldnt be getting good jobs due to their lack of education.
True story- my great-grandfather came to this country around 1910 from Italy. He came with only the clothes on his back. He lived with his family in a 1 room apartment- the slums of New York. You know what he had to do for a living? He had to drag multiple 200+lb blocks of ice around in a cart, and carry those blocks up the stairs of apartment houses to sell. You think that's easy work? Of course not. Eventually he built up the business until he owned an ice factory the size of a city block in New York at the time of his death.
The point of the story is this- mexicans don't get crappy jobs because theyre mexican. They get crappy jobs because they're immigrants. Almost all immigrants (except for chinese because a lot of them come here with college educations) do stuff like pick fruit and flip burgers. I'd rather do that than lug 200 lb blocks of ice around 6 days a week. At least you'll have the chance for a better life for your kids and yourself in America- in Mexico, unless your part of a cartel or something, you'll barely scrape by.
No one's denying that Mexico is in shape. It is. In fact, pretty much every country south of the rio grande is in bad shape. But you act like Americans are evil or something-
"They dislike the united states and their attitude towards them"
First off, not everyone here is a nativist *******. Secondly, if the situation was flipped and Americans were hoppping borders to get into the U.S, some Mexicans wouldnt be too happy themselves with it. I don't understand what's so evil about the American Dream- striving to be the best you can be, trying to be successful, raise a nice family. I mean, the countries that critize us (france, germany, etc.) have the same values for the most part. The U.S has done foreign policy stuff that isn't agreeable to everyone, but that doesn't make the people evil because a lot of them disagree with what our government does.
Most of the reasons why we go into other countries is to protect our interests or there is some other benefit. Craig10k is right - "My complaint is in the nation's actions in governments it has supported becaust of self-interest." Hell, look what we did in Korea. We sent 1000s of troops there to defeat the north and contain communism. Self-serving? But look at it this way- wouldn't any other country do the same thing were they in the U.S's position? Americans aren't any more "evil" than citizens of other countries. Protecting one's interests is simply human nature. And at least the U.S has managed to do some good in the process (i strongly disagree with war on iraq, but at the very least saddam was removed and the people will see an improvement at least in the long term of quality of life).
I don't see what's so bad about canada. I didn't like Montreal all that much, but it was only 1 place. But, the food was cheap. Most of the "Canada sucks" sentiment comes from it being "cool" to diss canada (stuff like south park movie, etc). Personally, Canada is a pretty nice country. Good standard of living, they back the U.S, etc. I wouldn't think Canada as being the coolest country, but it's a good one.
|By Crazylicious (Crazylicious) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 12:45 am: Edit|
I am a California girl and I thought (Western) Canada was beautiful.
|By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 12:54 am: Edit|
We have a tendency to hate what we envy...
We see this effect in ourselves, by suddenly hating the dream college that rejected us...
|By Stephable (Stephable) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:03 am: Edit|
Sorry, I meant Canadians plays a large role in AMERICAN comedy....that'll teach me not to proof read...
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:17 am: Edit|
America has a hand in why Latin American countries are having difficulties -- that would create a level of dislike in my mind.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit|
Ya, I really liked Vancover and Montreal. Two of the nicest cities I have been to. I still would rather live in the US, and I dont have any harsh feelings towrds canada
|By Chavi (Chavi) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit|
Maybe Mexicans (and other would-be immigrants) could put a little more energy into changing their government and less into hating other people? Do you think the U.S. became prosperous overnight through no efforts of its own people? It took hard work and personal sacrifice on behalf of not only our leaders but our lower classes to make the U.S. what it is today. The same thing goes for the Iraqi and Afghani people right now. They will have to risk and sacrifice not only their livelihoods but also their lives for their fellow citizens to have a future. That is why we honor the heroes of our American Revolution. They put it all on the line, life, family and fortune. Sorry, waxing a little patriotic this 4th of July. Just wish people of other countries would quit bashing the U.S. while at the same time taking advantage of the opportunities here that are obviously significantly better. I understand that the poor often act out of sheer desperation, but if they insist on wallowing in hatred they'll never improve their lot in life. And we all know there is every opportunity here to do that.
|By Zhou (Zhou) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit|
On Sept,11th,2001,an office lady came out of the flying ashes that shrouded Manhattan,panicked and clothes covered with dirt.She said nothing but:"Why do they hate us?"These words spread all over the world and aroused great attention.Later,a book was published.The name of the book is "Why do people hate America?".It was written by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies.Flip through that book and you will know why people hate America.
|By Chapter322 (Chapter322) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 02:53 pm: Edit|
Can you enlighten us Zhou. I don't happen to have a copy of this book on hand... LOL Thank you.
Well...it seems to me that people in other countries secretly idolize America. I spent a summer listening to music from other countries... and when I look at their top music charts, there are always many American artists, except for France and one other country that I forget. (It's also like "the thing" to learn English.)
American movies are also big in other countries...I'm sure that they can see the difference in the U.S. than in their countries simply by watching these movies. America is not a place to hate... I think it's just the "cool" thing for these people to be like "yea...we hate Americans." But, they really don't.
|By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 03:08 pm: Edit|
chapter, i know in a lot of countries, most of the people can't afford music or movies. only the rich upper class people have these luxuries, and the rich upper class people aren't the ones that hate america. it's mostly the masses who live in poverty.
i think it's pretty naive when americans who have never even been overseas say that nobody really hates them, that other countries are just jealous and stuff. i've never read the book zhou was talking about, but i know a lot of people in the middle east especially hate america becuase they hate the western culture of dating, drugs, sex, alcohol, etc. a lot of people don't want american occupation in their country becuase the american culture might rub off on them, and they don't want that.
|By Alejandro (Alejandro) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 04:14 pm: Edit|
" But you act like Americans are evil or something"
I am not acting in any way, I am explaining to you the situation that the mexican worker has to face when they go to the states. If I hated the states, I wouldn't be moving there next fall, studying there....would i?
|By Chapter322 (Chapter322) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 04:33 pm: Edit|
I'm sorry, I was referring to more developed places such as Russia, Germany, the UK, etc... I'm sure it's not just the upperclass people who buy music there. It seems that all classes in these countries can afford entertainment. In Russia, if a music artist is popular enough, there can sometimes be two versions of their album: a cheaper one for the lower class and a more expensive deluxe version for middle class and above. Tape cassettes are still being sold religiously.
I think we can all agree that the Middle East is a big exception when it comes to speaking about the rest of the world in general, but I have even seen Iraqi teens on television showing their Britney Spears cds!! This is why I believe that most people simply go with the flow of hating America... they learn this from their elders and it's a vicious cycle.
|By Sparky (Sparky) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 05:11 pm: Edit|
I agree with mrbesch about needing an education to live well in america for mexicans from experience. My father and mother immigrated from mexico to america with college degree but they still had to face several years working as fruit pickers and occasional factory working. They had to learn english just enough so my father and mother can get mediocre jobs. Eventually withen ten years my father got a job as a mechanic but made less than his janitor job but he loved mechanical jobs (he studied mechanical design at school). He started to take classes in autocad and now works in a office with his own computer as a mechinacal designer. My point is that it is good having a degree and education but it takes a long time to achieve where my family is today.
another point toward Chavi is that it is true that you need to get out there and tell the world what you feel and do some action toward it but with new er technology compared to the era of the American revolution it is not that easy to change the minds of the more powerful people. in this time of age riots are almost purely impossible unless you have power behind it.
|By Thunder77 (Thunder77) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit|
People hate America mostly because of Jealously
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 05:24 pm: Edit|
Jealousy doesn't explain why the statistics jumped after the intervention in Iraq. Basically, jealousy is just a great answer to take all blame off of Americans and place it somewhere else.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 06:12 pm: Edit|
Because toppling Saddam was an action representing the military and moral power the US has. The powerless UN was embaressed by Saddam, who disregarded every resolution, turned away UN inspectors, and corrupted the oil for food program. We did something other countries (well not Britain and others, but france germany russia saudi arabia...) could not do, which is handle Saddam. A lot of kids resent the best student or the best behaving student in the class, but also arnt unwilling to accept that student's help when needed.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 06:34 pm: Edit|
We can argue the merits of the intervention, but what I am saying is that the increase in resentment towards the US b/c of the intervention means it is not jealousy.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 07:00 pm: Edit|
Oh, I just noticed something ...
"moral power" -- let's not deceive ourselves into thinking that the US acts on morality not self-interest. What that self-interest is is debatable, but we really do not act on morals. Once again I'll cite those genocides we chose to ignore including present day Sudan (but we're making progress on this one since we're now debating on what to call it [note saracasm]).
|By Mrbesch (Mrbesch) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:52 am: Edit|
Alejandro, you were defending why it was ok for Mexicans to think America is evil, and you did it more than once. I don't think that it was such a crazy assumption to make that you were less than pleased with the situation Mexican immigrants face. You said yourself you lived in Mexico for 3 years. 3 years is a sizable amount of time. It wouldn't be impossible for you to identify with the poor Mexicans there seeing as how you seem to at least know their plight as you have lived there for a long time. It is something similar to stockholm syndrome. It wasn't that ridiculous of an assumption.
However, according to your previous arguments, your moving to America wouldn't necessarily mean you liked the U.S. Example- you said that "The fact that mexicans go to the states to work has nothing to do with the fact of whether or not they hate the country, but rather due to need." That implies that they still hate the U.S but are forced to go for their own survival. The same line of reasoning could be used in your case. You say that you are moving to the U.S to go to college- that's a need. Mexico doesn't exactly have good schooling. Hell, sparky's parents are great evidence of it; they had college degrees from Mexico but they were useless in the states. They had the same situation of a mexican who never went to college (im assuming that your parents had degrees in a relatively popular field sparky, something that exists in U.S. You didnt say what they had a degree in). So, you are going to the U.S to learn because its a need. That doesnt necessarily mean you like the states. After all, you said that the poor mexicans that immigrate to the U.S immigrate there out of need and not because they like the country;you implied that they can move here and still hate the country- "your point is true that many people desperately need that green card. That does not take away the fact that they might disagree with the "american way"." So it's very possible that you can move to the U.S for your "need" (education) and yet still dislike America.
|By Voodoochile (Voodoochile) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 07:33 am: Edit|
Hmm.. so basically Mexicans dislike America because it doesn't give them the same priviliges as its own citizens. However, they are forced to go to America because their own country cannot provide for them. In that case, why don't Mexicans hate their own country instead?
The US can only be obligated to provide jobs and education to its own citizens. Mexico is responsible for providing for Mexicans. How can America be blamed for prioritizing the needs of its own people?
If you are rich, should you be obligated to provide resources for your poor neighbor? Of course not. Likewise, the US cannot be held responsible for failing to support the needs of foreign citizens.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 09:13 am: Edit|
"If you are rich, should you be obligated to provide resources for your poor neighbor?"
The answer becomes a little more difficult once you understand that you are one of the main reasons if not the main reason your neighbor is poor.
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 09:39 am: Edit|
well said CraigK
|By Voodoochile (Voodoochile) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 09:56 am: Edit|
How does the US make Mexico poor?
|By Simba (Simba) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit|
Craig: You have a very clear clarity of thoughts and ability to express. It is impressive to see those in a 18-19-20 year olds. What/where are you studying?
|By Chavi (Chavi) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit|
The U.S. has in the past supported "evil" regimes in order to further not just self-interest but also the interests of the free world. I think it is ridiculous to go around claiming that the U.S. has been plundering the rest of the world just so we can get richer. That is the impression people like Craig make with their blanket statements. The U.S. did indeed support evil leaders like Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden and corrupt dictatorships in South America and maybe even Asia, but the purpose was not oil or gold or personal riches for us. It was a sometimes misguided effort to protect the free world from communism. The mistake was choosing what we thought at the time to be the lesser of two evils. I firmly believe our intentions were good. I believe our government at the time was led by pragmatic thinkers (Nixon, Kissinger, LBJ) who felt they had no choice. I also believe the Carter and Clinton administrations did no one any favors by promoting active population control programs in third world countries. We have created a lot of resentment overseas by swooping in with pills, condoms and other "reproductive" services", instead of food and shelter. That sends the message that we would rather get rid of you than feed you. Coupled with the exporting of our hedonistic side through movies, music, fashion, etc., we didn't make a very good impression in the third world. Our problem with Canada and Europe is that they think we are too Christian and too right wing (which explains their hatred of the Bush administration). We are now reaping the results of our pragmatic line of thinking in the third world. I see the Bush administration operating from a much more principled approach and trust that if we continue in this vein, with time, world opinion will ameliorate. But you will never completely get away from the jealousy factor. You have to just keep plugging along, helping those who want to be helped and doing the "right" thing. That is the price of being number one. And yes, we do have a moral obligation to help our neighbors. That is what makes us Americans. But our neighbors also have a moral obligation to help their own people. If they would quit blaming us they might start to make some progress.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit|
Voodochile -- go study your history books and dependency theory. Not only did we take quite a bit of land (and pride for that matter), but we launched Latin American countries into dependent economies or one's that are just controlled by the United States. Look at the mines of Chile, ranches of Argentina -- these were all controlled by outsiders in the beginning. Granted this was not just the United States, but there was a great deal of exploitation. Then take a look at more recent developments with the US controlled World Bank and IMF mandates b/c of defaulted loans. Admittedly, I am not as knowledgeable there.
Chavi -- I agree with you that they do need to start making some progress. I am not excusing Mexico (which had an instutionalized dictatorship until recently) by any means. What you have to understand is that there is another phase of dependency theory. The US (outside world in general) exploits the country and in turn the elite in the country exploit the generally rural poor. My sympathy is not with the Mexican government, but with the Mexican people. It would be foolish to say that the United States is not to have any blame and to simply stop "blaming" the US really wouldn't accomplish anything.
My other comment to you is that "doing the right 'thing'" is really looking at the situation in a black and white world. It's much more gray. For instance, I just finished reading something that questions giving humanitarian aid at all in Africa under certain situations. Doing the right thing would dictate that aid should always keep flowing, but in more than a few situations (like feeding Hutus on the Zaire border) really backfired. I guess that is just an ideological clash I have with this administration -- I don't see the world in a good v. evil, black and white type way. Also, I really don't think this administration is really following the "do the right thing" in foreign relations (I'm not using Iraq but Sudan in this instance).
Anyway, I'm going to Brown next year, studying some combo of international relations, poli sci, and economics.
|By Mac87 (Mac87) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit|
i doubt 40% of canadians view America as evil, they are more likely speaking from anger
they're angry about OUR foriegn policy, then it's enhanced by their countries dependency on ours, what about 90% of their exports are to us?
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 08:59 pm: Edit|
Oh, yeah -- Canadians are definitely angry over our policies primarily. The dependency discussion
a. doesn't really apply to Canada
b. is connected to our discussion about Mexico
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 01:04 pm: Edit|
"No other country gives as much to humanitarian aid per capita as the US does."
That was a rather long time ago, but I've ran across a quote in a book I just started (A Bed for the Night: Humantarianism in Crisis):
"Politicians and governents have abused humanitarianism to disengage from their own responsibilities, and, in doing so, have provoked an enormous and grave confusion."
-- Cornelio Sommaruga (former ICRC pres.)
|By Harpgirl27 (Harpgirl27) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 02:29 pm: Edit|
This is fun stuff for an American going to Montreal next year. Maybe I ought to learn a different accent.
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 04:41 pm: Edit|
You aren't going to get lynched in the middle of Montreal when they hear you american accent -- don't worry
|By Aim78 (Aim78) on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 09:37 pm: Edit|
Evil? Are you kidding me?
Fat? Yes. Stupid? Yes. But evil? That's a bit much. If we were evil we would have taken over Canada by now.
|By Uknowwho42 (Uknowwho42) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:40 am: Edit|
They're next. I heard they could make WMDs.
|By Gidget (Gidget) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:12 am: Edit|
You already tried... The war of 1812... we pushed you back and burnt down your White House...
|By Somecanadianguy (Somecanadianguy) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:37 pm: Edit|
The comment that most people who hate America would jump at the opportunity to live there is not true. Go to Europe. Many people over there dislike America (its foreign policy, its governement etc. etc.) and none of them would even consider going there.
However I think the pole is probably a bit drastic by using the word "evil," even though from the Canadians I know (which is a lot considering I live there) and I am one of the few people who actually want to go to the states and I like Americans, just not Bush, or Kerry.
The US had a its idea of Manifest Destiny where you wanted to conquer all of North America, and you did quite a good job, except that the War of 1812 kinda didn't work out well for you guys.
Anyway the majority of Canadian teens really don't know anything about politics or America nor do they have any substance for that view. Most are just being swept up in the anti-Americans news that are everywhere right now.
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