|By Waffle (Waffle) on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit|
Are you for Israelis or Palestinians in obtaining the Holy Land?
I am for Israelis because of numerous reasons, including:
Israel is the only land for Jews and Israelis can be distinguished as a race with a homeland. Palestinians cannot be distinguished from Jordinians or Egyptians. They just migrated to the holy land because they simply could.
The ancestors of the Israelis were there long before Muhammad was born.
The holiest sites, including the Kotel and the Temple Mount are there. The 3rd holiest site for Palestinians is Jerusalem, which for them is a guess at best, though I won't say why since that would be going against Islam, which I won't do since I'm not racist and do not want to make an unfair generalization.
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 09:47 pm: Edit|
I'm pro-Israel. Won't go into specifics. This thread could heat up pretty quick... so watch out.
|By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit|
I think the Assyrians should come back and kick both their asses.
|By Magoo (Magoo) on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 11:43 pm: Edit|
please refrain from saying anything like that...no offense but that can get you in trouble...HIDE
as for me...i choose no sides, they have developed a cycle AND IT NEEDS TO STOP...come to a resolution
man... CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG ??!!
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit|
I am pro-both sides, but believe Israel is in the moral right overall and has a right to exist in peace and security..
Anyway, I think we should stop this topic from going any further, because it will go on forever, get very heated, and come to no resolution. I know this because I participated in one of these about a month ago. You can search for it on the "Berkeley" board. So please, no one post anymore on this.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 01:48 am: Edit|
I only have one thing to say and I hope this ends afterwards:
The "they were there first" argument is quite possibily the stupidest thing I have EVER heard.
|By Stonedpanda (Stonedpanda) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 03:09 am: Edit|
"Anyway, I think we should stop this topic from going any further, because it will go on forever, get very heated, and come to no resolution. I know this because I participated in one of these about a month ago. You can search for it on the "Berkeley" board. So please, no one post anymore on this."
Unfortunately, I never participated in that thread. Although, two Seniors (I'm a Junior) told me about it. I'd actually like to have a *respectful* discussion about it with someone who disagrees with me?
I'm _very_ Pro-Israel.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 02:03 pm: Edit|
stonepanda, go read that thread, and then decide if youd want to spend your time with that. Im very pro israel as well, but its not worth doing with people like that (2 ppl i was arguing with in that thread). Just read it and youll see.
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit|
Purgeofdoors: Is it Hittites or Asyrians?
Craigk10: There is a similar argument made in the law that states that if something is stolen and then bought by someone, it belongs to the person that originally had it.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit|
Ok, how do you prove who had "it" first and where do you start from? Historically, it is an impossible argument -- it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Now please let this thing die.
|By Neo (Neo) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 05:34 pm: Edit|
No good can come from this thread.
|By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 06:22 pm: Edit|
i agree. although i'm going to go against the grain and vote for palestine.
|By Mkhman (Mkhman) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 06:30 pm: Edit|
I agree with Lisa,
As for Waffle, Israelis are not a race and being Jewish is not a race, its a religion. If you did not know there are lots of Arab Jews who live in Israel and other places. Nobody before called themselves Israelis (except a tribe Beni Israel long time ago, but they weren't the only jews. I'm not going to get into that).
And just because someone is Arab that doesn't mean they should go live somewhere else. They want to live in their homeland.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 08:41 pm: Edit|
|By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 09:08 pm: Edit|
For once, I completely, totally agree with Jlq3d3.
|By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 10:09 pm: Edit|
Ah, Ndbisme, ya caught me. I figured the Hittites may confuse some people or something... don't really know why I changed it. Assyrians sounds better anyway.
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit|
|By Stonedpanda (Stonedpanda) on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 11:21 pm: Edit|
Jlq3d3: Ok, however, a site I'm sure will make your life much easier when talking about and defending Israel is http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html
they also have it in other languages =p
|By Mkhman (Mkhman) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit|
I'll end it now, but that site is, well look who published it. It pretty much lies.
|By Cagal (Cagal) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 03:44 am: Edit|
I'm sorry to prolong this, but I just stumbled across this thread and I must say this, without stating if I am pro Israeli or pro Palestinean:
In regards to this by Ndbisme5: Craigk10: There is a similar argument made in the law that states that if something is stolen and then bought by someone, it belongs to the person that originally had it.
Then shouldn't we give our land back to the Native Americans?
Yah, things don't work that easily. We all want a resolution. If there was one that both could agree one, then it would have been settled long ago.
|By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 08:05 am: Edit|
It's always going to be a bit lame trying to discuss the "Israeli / Palestinian situation" without ever:
*having been an Iraeli father who has lost a son
*having been an Palestinian father who has lost a son
*having been fired upon by an enemy
*having been taught all your life that the other side is your enemy.
I would not like to be accused of being indifferent, but would like even less to be accused of being an armchair general.
|By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:24 am: Edit|
Purgeofdoors, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you, but I think the Babylonians/Chaldeans are going to to rise up and lay the smack-down upon all their asses.
Then in the ultimate swerve, the Mesopotamians are going to return setting up the greatest showdown sense Ali/Foreman pitting the brilliance of Nebuchadnezzar (sp) vs. the tact and experience of the Mesopotamians.
My prediction: The Chaldeans pwn'd teh n00bzor Mesos with the ultimate "Hanging Garden Gash" attack, entrapping all the Mesos, making them teh 1337zorz!
|By Lisasimpson (Lisasimpson) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:59 am: Edit|
ugh, i do want the thread to end, but i hate how people treat the issue like it's a joke or a game or something. people are freaking dying over there, and people over here don't seem to freaking understand that. even if you're just trying to lighten up the situation or something, i don't think it should be by making light of people's deaths.
|By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 10:26 am: Edit|
Well obviously I have a point of view, but that only gets you in trouble. I deal with things through my humor, yes lightening up a situation can help.
I wasn't making light of anyone's deaths, I was mocking the fact that with the issue, almost everyone is extreme to one side or another, shouting either "Israelis!" or "Palestinians!" so why not shout "Chaldeans!" or "Assyrians!" I'm making light of the extremists, because there is a middle ground, yet everyone is too damn narrowminded to realize that.
There is humor and gravity in almost everything, sometimes humor helps.
You should watch DL Hughely "Goin' Home" (stand-up special):
"I don't know which side is right or wrong, but I do know those Palestinians believe what they're fighting for, 'cause they'll fight a tank...with a rock. If I'm in that situation, ****, I'll believe what he believes, his god must love him he gave him a tank. Mine gone and gave me a rock...a dirt rock."- DL Hughely
|By Tomohawke (Tomohawke) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit|
why bring this up on a college forum at all? it can only breed animosity and hate on a board meant to help others.. please consider this before posting.
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 01:38 pm: Edit|
It's not a college forum... it's the cafe.
Yep, the Indians are still owed land... though realistically-speaking it won't do them much good since they are almost all gone (compared to 1600s).
Funny Hunter .
It's not clear-cut and there are many wrongs on both sides.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 02:43 pm: Edit|
I'll accept that people think that jews are not a race, though israelis decscended from Israel (the person) are.
"but that site is, well look who published it. It pretty much lies."
Just because of who publishes a site, doesn't make it a lie, especially when there are facts and sources listed.
|By Mkhman (Mkhman) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 04:10 pm: Edit|
To Waffle..Well I have facts that can show the other side, actual facts and quotes. If you want them.
And to Morgan, I was in Palestine for the summer and the Israeli army started shooting at me and other little kids for no reason except we were playing in the streets. They missed me. Got some other kids and threw them in jail. By the way, I was 7 years old too. So I guess i can speak out as you say.
But lets stop i don't want to continue.
|By Casablanca (Casablanca) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 07:51 pm: Edit|
Mkhman, give the towel back to hilton... it's rightfully theres.
Just like Isreal, rightfully, belongs to the Jews.
|By Mkhman (Mkhman) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 08:22 pm: Edit|
No its not, they should give it back since they stole it.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 08:27 pm: Edit|
Please stop. This is not going to get anywhere.
|By Cagal (Cagal) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:01 pm: Edit|
To everyone that is saying we should stop talking: I don't think it is a bad thing to talk about these issues. They need to be discussed...people with opinions on BOTH sides should hear the other side with an open mind to become more educated on other perspectives of this VERY important issue. Maybe this post will go on and on...maybe some people will remain ignorant and refuse to hear what the other side has to say...but perhaps one person may learn something out of this, and if that happens, then it is worth it.
And about someone saying that Jews not being a race (why this is was even brought up in relation to this issue, I do not know)...being Jewish is not only a religion, but a culture and an ethnicity. It has common descendants and shared non-religious cultural practices...
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:13 pm: Edit|
carol, i am saying that before anyone continues, they should read what happened when this exact topic was discussed recently on the Berkeley board. Go read it and then you can make a judgement if an online discussion/debate/arguement/fight on this topic is worth it.
If you want to get educated on the issue, this is not the place to do it. If you want to change peoples mind, this is not the place.
Just dont do it. And dont respond to what anyone says anymore.
|By Magoo (Magoo) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:14 pm: Edit|
SIGH...why do those who wish this thread will end keep posting...i know i sound rude but come on just ignore this place from now on
|By Cagal (Cagal) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:28 pm: Edit|
Jlq3d3,I'm assuming you are talking to me (it isn't carol) don't tell me not to post or comment on what other people say. Magoo is right...just ignore it. If you guys don't want to see this thread go on, then DON'T READ IT, it is that simple!
But to those who want to continue (if it helps or not is another story)then don't let other people discourage you. It may not be the best source of information and it may not change people's minds, but it is encouraging some form of discussion. Believe me, I've had in person conversations with groups of people about this and though the hours and hours spent talking may have not changed their opinions, it did make us all think about it. A lot of these efforts are futile, but it may spark people (even if it is just ONE) to get more educated from another source.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:51 pm: Edit|
cagol, i never said not to post, I am just advising against it. I said you should look what happened last time on the Berkeley board and then decide.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit|
Where is this berkeley board thing anyway?
What's wrong with talking about these issues? This is probably one of the only places where you can talk about it with intelligent people.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit|
"To Waffle..Well I have facts that can show the other side, actual facts and quotes. If you want them."
Actually, I would. I've been looking for a site that shows a different opinions with sources. If you could tell me the url, that would be great.
|By Arsalan (Arsalan) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit|
PALESTINE- ALL THE WAY! You guys have to see both sides. Open your eyes and smell the coffee guys. If someone comes to your house, breaks down your door and says, "THIS IS MY HOME, SO PLEASE GET OUTTA HERE. ACTUALLY, NOT THAT IM BEING RUDE OR ANYTHING, BUT MY ANCESTORS LIVED HERE A 1000 YEARS AGO. THAT'S WHY THIS IS MY PLACE." Does that justify anything?
|By Arsalan (Arsalan) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit|
PALESTINE~! Guys BE rational. Be pragmatic. Be realistic. Think outside of the box. Palestine all the way!
|By Magoo (Magoo) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 05:50 pm: Edit|
we get the point Arsalan
(thank you for not saying anything offensive...i saw the all caps and kinda panicked then i read it...phewwww)
|By Jajas2 (Jajas2) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 06:23 pm: Edit|
I absolutely agree with Arlasan. The idea that "God promised this land is ours, so we have to fight you for it" is absolutely ridiculous. Its understandable that Jews would like thier own state after being mistreated for most of the past 2000 years, but it is ludicrous that they can simple waltz into a country, subjugate the people and declare it thiers. Palestinians are second class citizens under Isreali law and many millions of Palestinians are still in refugee camps in Syria and Jordan dating back to even the original founding of the country. In no way, shape or form is that right.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit|
"I absolutely agree with Arlasan. The idea that "God promised this land is ours, so we have to fight you for it" is absolutely ridiculous. Its understandable that Jews would like thier own state after being mistreated for most of the past 2000 years, but it is ludicrous that they can simple waltz into a country, subjugate the people and declare it thiers. Palestinians are second class citizens under Isreali law and many millions of Palestinians are still in refugee camps in Syria and Jordan dating back to even the original founding of the country. In no way, shape or form is that right."
You are forgeting that it is Israeli land and that that is already their own country. People from Jordan and some surrounding Arab countries waltzed in when the Israelis were building a great country on what was previously a desert. These people recently started calling themselves Palestinians and now demand a land for themselves which they have no claim to. The Israelis don't subjugate the people. It is actually the only country in the Middle East in that area without a government that forces its people to obey a certain religion. It is a tolerant government and a good democracy. Land was previously offered to the Palestinians (the west bank and gaza) and was turned down by arafat, because he wants israel conquered, and he doesn't want to live in peace with them. If the terror would stop, the Arabs and Jews could live in peace in Israel, with no restrictions on Jerusalem.
Here is a site with information on the truth of Israel:
It is a partisan site, but no site on this subject is nonpartisan, and this has primary sources for its information.
|By Jajas2 (Jajas2) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit|
What im saying is that it doesnt matter how "great" a country Isreal is, they got thier country through violent action while the rest of the world let them, because of guilt due to the holocaust. A second complaint is that most muslim countries dont 'force' you to obey a certain religion, they just overwhelmingly are. I personally know a dozen christians from pakistan. And a third thing is your contention is that Palestinians are not subjugated. If a person lives in a country and cannot become a citizen just because of thier ethnic background in a place that was once thiers, that sounds like subjugation to me.
|By Craigk10 (Craigk10) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit|
Instead of looking for websites, go read From Beirut to Jerusalem.
|By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 08:58 pm: Edit|
There. Hundreds of messages on this topic to keep you satisfied as to show you how even with attempted good intentions (a discussion on the issues), on online message board is not the best area for educated raport.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 10:47 pm: Edit|
"What im saying is that it doesnt matter how "great" a country Isreal is, they got thier country through violent action while the rest of the world let them, because of guilt due to the holocaust."
It was obtained through violence, but through a war which nations around Israel started. Settled Arabs lived in Palestine before it became Israel along with Israelis. This so called expulsion is a lie to gain sympathy for them. The surrounding Arab countries told them to leave Palestine so they can all fight a war against Jews living there. The Arabs lost the war and the Arab countries around newly formed Israel wouldn't let the Arabs of Israel in their countries, so the Arab countries forced the people who would call themselves Palestinians to form refugee camps along the Israeli borders. With no place to go because of the surrounding countries, the Palestinians claim the right for Israel's land to be their land. They decided to try to expel Israelis from land in a war and failed, and this does not give the right to displace Israel because of that. Even before this, the Palestinians were just Arabs from Jordan who migrated to Israel and were free to live there. Then, they started a war to try to take that land and expel Jews, and it didn't work.
By the way, they can become citizens of Israel, just not automatically, just like in America.
|By Babybird87 (Babybird87) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 11:03 pm: Edit|
die thread die!
i don't think people not living in those places can know, so it's useless to "discuss" it.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit|
Acutally, Jews and Muslims watch this conflict closely. People want to live there, but many are too scared to because of terrorism.
|By Elizabeth (Elizabeth) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:13 am: Edit|
I am very pro-Israel. Israel has civil rights and is much like the US. The Arab nations have shown they cannot have a viable economy, democracy, or civil rights for their citizens. The leaders in these Arab nations use propaganda toward Israel to control their people while lining their pockets with graft. They don't seem to care about families and providing a prosperous economy and a viable standard of living.
|By Mkhman (Mkhman) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 01:20 am: Edit|
To Waffle... I will try to find the webpage, i lost the URL, I don't know what happened to it... though i do have most of the webpage downloaded.
To Elizabeth...What does this have to do with Palestine. Why are bringing up Arab nations anyways. What are you comparing it too. Trying to justify that since Israel has "civil rights", and that Palestine if it were to exist would not since its an Arab country, and so it should not exist? Uh Uh
Well first of all, Israel does have civil rights, ONLY for Jews. Did you know that if a jewish woman married an Israeli-Arab or vice versa, that the Israeli-Arab cannot inherit the land of his wife? Israeli-Arabs are always second class citizens in Israel. And why is it that they have a different passport and citizenship than jews?
There are a great deal of injustices against Palestinian and Arabs and anyone that is not jewish in Israel. So you can't say that it is a democracy with civil rights like the US
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 11:54 am: Edit|
mkhman, you are so very wrong about citizenship. Anyone can become a citizen of Israel and inherit the same rights. At least fifteen religions are recongnized and tolerated in Israel. The only right that distingishes Jews from other people is the Law of Return, which basically states that any Jew from all over the world is automatically a citizen of Israel, but anyone can get citizenship. Israel was established as a Jewish homeland, just like America is an American homeland and France is a French homeland. Jews have this one extra right to keep it a majority, but in no way does this make anyone else a second class citizen. Anyone in Israel has the right to read and write, have a fair trial, vote, hold political office, etc. It is the only democracy in the middle east.
With proportional representation and tolerance of homosexuals, the Israeli government is in some ways better than the American government.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 08:29 pm: Edit|
oh yeah, and i would like the url very much for facts that show the other side with actual quotes and sources.
|By Neo (Neo) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 08:36 pm: Edit|
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit|
I have a hard time convincing myself that Mkhman is being completely objective here or truthful for that matter. Propaganda drives me crazy... education is the only solution or a couple of electrons (jk!). It's pretty sad when some people actually think that propaganda can be useful against educated people .
|By Conker (Conker) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 08:36 pm: Edit|
Palestinians will often mention the UN mandate. But Israelis will point out that it was the Arab League that prohibited the Palestinians from acquiring their independence. In their quest to conquer Israel in the Israeli War for Independence, the Arab nations trampled over, and occupied, Gaza Strip and West Bank. Thus, the likes of Jordan and Egypt themselves prevented Palestinian independence. Israel can say that it merely acquired Palestinian land from THEM. This land can also be said to have been justly taken. When the Arab League first attacked Israel in 1948, Israel took a slice of the West Bank. Then during the Yom Kippur War, Israel acquired the rest of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, again on the defense. The land unjustly acquired by Israel in the Six Days War has all, IIRC, been returned to their original owners. I believe that Israel is justified in holding the land that it now holds (although not in how it treats its inhabitants).
However, I believe that Israel should give the Palestinians another chance. Let the Palestinian authorities know that they can have their independence, as long as they do not show aggression towards Israel. And if they do, Palestine will be conquered again...this time, for good. The UN also needs to issue a stern warning to the Arab nations (in which Egypt is no longer a member): that if the Arab nations display hostility towards Israel, Israel's military will be backed by a UN force that may march all the way into their respective nations.
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit|
The Pali leadership cannot be trusted . The only solution is to wait for the leaders to die and when about 50 years have passed with peace, then dealing can commence. That or they are educated.
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 09:26 pm: Edit|
It is a marvelous idea to give the Palestinians another chance, except for the fact that that chance has already been taken. A few years ago, Arafat was offered 98% of the land that they asked for (all in the West Bank and Gaza-Except for a few heavy Jewish settlements). He refused. Israel basically gave Arafat the choice of peace or war. He chose war and the intifada started.
Let it be known that it was Arafat's choice to choose war, not anyone else's.
Propaganda is terrible, and I don't feel like listing sources, but www.yahoodi.com will give all information needed on the subject. Yes, it is biased but that doesn't mean it isn't the truth. It has credentials (which makes it a reliable source) and is the truth.
|By Ndbisme5 (Ndbisme5) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit|
|By Waffle (Waffle) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 11:28 pm: Edit|
Hopefully there will be peace someday.
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