Anti-Bush





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Discus: College Confidential Café: 2004 Archive: Anti-Bush
By Chamonix (Chamonix) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Okay, I need help in my arguments when I try to bash Bush. I don't know enough about politics to back up my position. I do know the Bush is a complete idiot.

Here's what I'm looking for. Give me ONE or TWO examples of Bush's bad policies. Thanks

By Chamonix (Chamonix) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit

I'll start:

Stem Cell Research...horrible plan by Bush

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

I am sure you can find a website for this. You can start at Kerry's website.

Is this for a debate you have to do, or do you want this for personal reasons. If it for personal reasons, it seems kind of dumb to ask people why you should not like a candidate. If you do not know why you dont like someone, dont dislike them. Find out the facts for your self and then take a position. Do not take a position without a basis, and then ask people to fill your vacuous decision with propaganda to make you feel like you have reached the correct decision.

By Taru (Taru) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Is this for a paper? =)

By Jlaws30 (Jlaws30) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:32 pm: Edit

"Okay, I need help in my arguments when I try to bash Bush. I don't know enough about politics to back up my position. I do know the Bush is a complete idiot."

You're making a claim you cannot support yourself, so how do you know your claim is true? Do you just think that Bush is an idiot because many others think he is? Because if you do, (which you do) then you are an idiot.

By Pharaohl97 (Pharaohl97) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:38 pm: Edit

he pushed back enviromental protection laws by about 20-40 years.

Allowed the economy to sink to its lowest point in time and has done nothing to remedy the situation.

Stupid tax-cuts to the rich

tricked the american people into supporting a war without evidence

used the tragedy of 911 for his own political gain

used the fear and uncertianty of the american people to propel his agenda and never be questioned

pushed the patriot act which destroys most of our constitutional rights

allowed gas prices to soar and did nothing about it-he works for an oil company so it makes him richer

made a deal with opec to decrease oil production a few years back so as to increase gas prices in america and then made another deal with them recently to increase oil production right before elections in november so as for the prices to drop. ---tryping to use the price of gas to help his campaign


and the list goes on and on

By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:42 pm: Edit

go to the democratic parties website, it's anti-bush to the MAX. Lots of good details and newspaper articles..

By Chamonix (Chamonix) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:52 pm: Edit

I KNOW why I dislike Bush! I just thought that I wasn't informed enough. So I was curious of others opinions. This is for personal reasons. I don't want to loose these debates. My reasons for disliking him: the faltering economy, the tax-cuts, stem cell research, and as for the times I've seen him on TV, he stumbles through his speeches, which is very annoying. Thanks pharaohl97

By Ivyleague14 (Ivyleague14) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:52 pm: Edit

OK

Bush went after Iraq for not letting UN inspectors in to their country- therefore breaking UN laws.

WE invade Iraq without UN security council's approval- therefore breaking UN laws (articles 41-42)

We contradict ourselves by moving into war.

And, this war is not against terror bc no ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda have been made

Osama Bin Laden hates Husseien and believes he shouldn't be a muslim bc he is an "infidel"

By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:52 pm: Edit

Allowed the economy to sink to its lowest point in time and has done nothing to remedy the situation.

---Typically the economy doesn't do well, when stocks are way WAY overvalued, like in the internet stock hayday, it was bound to come crashing down. When there a terrorist attack of any sort, especially in the middle of the economic center in the USA. When we're at war....when there is political uncertainty in the middle east and a list of other things. I don't think it was Bush's fault entirely.


allowed gas prices to soar and did nothing about it-he works for an oil company so it makes him richer

---Um, you have no basis for this stuff. Bush has no control over the Gas Prices really, considering that 90 percent of the gas is produced from other countries, and OPEC tends to set the prices. Bush doesn't want to release our oil reserves, which is smart, incase we criticially need that oil someday, because without oil our country couldn't run right now. We would be easily exploitable without oil. OIL IS being produced at MAXIMUM capacity right now, and the prices are sky high. FACE IT WE NEED TO MOVE AWAY FROM OIL AND INTO BETTER TECHNOLOGY LIKE FUEL CELLS.

I'm not the biggest fan of Bush, but i'm also not a big fan of Kerry, what are you gonna do about it. Although, i'd appreciate if you'd dish out more factual information, opposed to stuff that could be up for interpretation.

By Magoo (Magoo) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:02 pm: Edit

oh crap HERE IT COMES
LIBERALS vs. CONSERVATIVES round...well hell 58,569

uhhh...education policy could be better
No Child Left Behind
tax policy is somewhat bad, yet not as bad as everyone says...
WORST: being on vacation for over 40% of the time in the first few months in office. (pre 9/11)

By Iplayoboe (Iplayoboe) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

all of what Pharaoh said plus

he starts his term by stealing the presidency. all post Supreme court decision recounts have placed Al Gore ahead in Florida by 500000 votes. Gore was elected and Bush is in office.

His plan for energy self-sufficieny included nothing but a plan to drill the Alaskan Wildlife Preserve which would provide 6 months of oil and destroy the wildlife forever.

Convinently used Saddam Hussein and Al Queida in the same sentences when speaking of Iraq even tho there was absolutley NO connection between the two.

Um... need i mention the war in Iraq...? The troop abuses, the time commitment (already past original time frame) the budget. the Haliburtan financial scandle, the budget. the soldiers dying, the lack of control. the budget

No Child Left Behind Act expects standards of education to be higher than what even he himself achieved in school (he was a C student) and provides NO federal funding for radical changes which will cost schools billions to implement. In effect, schools will have to spend their entire budgets to meet NCLB standards and its testing thus art, music, language, sports, clubs and everything "extra" will have to be cut.

HE HAS NOT FIRED RUMSFELD!!! what is this!! the man flat out lied to him about disgusting abuses hes known about SINCE JANUARY and Bush does not raise all hell against him.

the patriot act... a blatent violation of American liberties...

he repealed all of Clintons environmental protection laws. even if you dont like clinton, his laws were the most progressive ever passed.

He served in the National Guard instead of Vietnam and then didnt even show up for duty. Then,! THEN! he has the galls to tell John Kerry that he (Kerry) is not fit to be president because he came back from Vietnam and then protested the war. Bush calls Kerry unpatriotic because he prostested the war. Kerry Served and THEN protested (btw when is protesting war unpatriotic??) whilst Bush didnt serve and did not even show up for his fake duty.

Plus, he used his legacy status to get into Yale when he didnt deserve it. and I want to go to Yale, and it is people like him who make it more difficult for non-legacy more deserving students to get accepted.

i lost my list of specific sources,( computer crash....hmm) but, googling the key words of the topics above plus sources like CNN, or BBC, or PBS or any respectable newspaper will usually put up articles with the correct information and specific facts.

hope that helps
and DONT use the arguement "hes just stupid" cause that just makes you look moronic and makes people much more likely to dismiss everything you say in your arguement afterwards, no matter how right or wrong you are. Dont call it Bush Bashing... thats no good either. its rather rude. say.... political debate... that leaves room for.... well... debate. it doesnt close the conversation right off.
toodles

By Cornelius (Cornelius) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:06 pm: Edit

This is pathetic.

You shouldn't dislike someone if you have to stoop to asking students on the internet to inform you about that person.

I'll just let your first post speak for itself.

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I got these from an angry liberal's website. I'm not sure if they're true or not, but since you seem like such a rational person, I'm sure you'll research them to find out!

Accomplishments as president--

1. I attacked and took over two countries.

2. I spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

3. I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history.

4. I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-
month period.

5. I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the
stock market.

6. I was the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

7. I was the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal
record.

8. During my first year in office, I set the all-time record for most days
on vacation by any president in US history.

9. After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided
over the worst security failure in US history.

10. I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other
president in US history.

11. During my first two years in office, over 2 million Americans lost their
jobs.

12. I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any president in US history.

13. I set the all-time record for the most foreclosures in a 12-month
period.

14. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than
any president in US history.

15. I set the record for the fewest number of press conferences of any
president since the advent of television.

16. I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history.

17. I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to
intervene when Uther was revealed.

18. I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused
to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

19. I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans, while sending soldiers
into combat.

20. I set the all-time record for the largest number of people worldwide to
simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

21. I dissolved more international treaties -- unilaterally, by
abrogation -- than any president in US history.

22. My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US
history.

23. Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US
history (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has an Exxon
oil tanker named after her).

24. I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the
Union simultaneously go bankrupt.

25. I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

26. I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and military
occupation of a sovereign nation.

27. I created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

28. I set the all-time record for the largest annual budget spending
increases, more than any president in US history.

29. I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

30. I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

31. I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
congressional oversight, than any presidential administration in US
history.

32. I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

33. I withdrew the US from the World Court of Law.

34. I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by
default no longer abide by the Geneva Convention.

35. I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election
inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

36. I am the all-time US (and world) record-holder for most corporate
campaign donations.

37. My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the
largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay,
(Im cool and different by using the term "former") CEO of Enron Corporation.)

38. I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

39. I am the first president in US history to unilaterally attack a
sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

40. I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force One.)

41. I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

42. I took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less
than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly
the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history.)

43. With a policy of 'disengagement', I created the most hostile
Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

44. I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people
of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

45. I am the first US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

47. I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.

48. I set all-time record for number of administration appointees who
violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding
for government contracts.

49. I failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive.'

50. I failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders
of our country at the United States Capital building. After 18 months, I
have no leads and zero suspects.

51. In the 18 months following the 9/11 attacks, I have successfully
prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in
the history of the United States.

52. I removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any
other president in US history.

53. In a little over two years, I created the most divided country in
decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil
war.

54. I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and, in less
than two years, turned every single economic category heading straight
down.

By Bumblebee83 (Bumblebee83) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Ok, some of that has to be blamed on 9/11.
Try thetruthaboutbush.com Its run by NOW (national Organization of Women) and they HATE shrub and are educated about him and his entire cabinet,

By Fallenangel85 (Fallenangel85) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 12:17 am: Edit

hes doing nothing but finishing his fathers business...Iraq is Bushes veitnam. Did you listen/watch his state of the union/ it was laughable and full of blatent falsities.

and

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_feb2001/MoBush.jpg

By Browninfall (Browninfall) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 12:17 am: Edit

You folks have to relax a little bit. What are you going to do if he wins the election in November?

By Poobah3k (Poobah3k) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 12:39 am: Edit

Seriously. All the hatred from these liberals is really pretty amusing. At least we conservatives got a few good laughs out of Clinton's 8 years. The Democrats are just _angry_.

For the record, I'm not thrilled with Bush either. But if he's the evil person the liberals make him out to be, Kerry would be leading polls by a landslide. It's really sad that Kerry, when you stick him next to Bush, doesn't look like that much better of a candidate. I think it's pretty sad that these are supposed to be our two best people to run the country.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:41 am: Edit

It just sounds wrong to ask people to tell you why they hate someone so that you will be able to hate them. Figure it out on your own with facts and reason, dont depend on a liberal mob to feed you trash.

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:16 am: Edit

Liberals love to be involved in any radical, anti-establishment, anti-conservative group; right now, the popular group is the anti-Bush one. Nine out of ten times a liberal will justify their hatred of Bush by the lines "He's stupid!", or "He's an idiot!"

By Taru (Taru) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:34 am: Edit

Hmm, doesn't sound like you have met many liberals. Most that I know are well-educated about their beliefs.

By Athlonmj (Athlonmj) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 08:03 am: Edit

Go read Treason by Ann Coulter, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. At least I did.

By Kitkattail (Kitkattail) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 09:01 am: Edit

I'm not sure I'd call the anti-Bush movement particularly radical or anti-establishment. (But then, maybe that's because I'm Canadian, and everybody here hates him, including a lot of the neo-conservative types.)

By Bumblebee83 (Bumblebee83) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:19 pm: Edit

The problem with Bush is that he's not really a conservative....Republicans are supposed to be about small goverment and individual liberty...and Bush isn't. he's increased the size of the federal goverment and he took massive power and privacy away from citizens. the only thing that makes him conservative is his anti-women, anti-gays rhetoric. and you're right Kerry isn't much better, but at least he doesn't try to cram his religous views down my throat.

By Unluckycharms (Unluckycharms) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:18 pm: Edit

I'd rather live in a country where I'm actually free to practice my own way of life and religion. It's a little hard to do that when you've got a president who doesn't understand the concept of separating church and state.

By Browninfall (Browninfall) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit

What way of life and which religion has your president prevented you from practicing?

By Welshie (Welshie) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Yeah. You folks are pretty amusing. The overwhelming majority of comments on this thread alone are half-truths and complete exaggerations. There are a few folks on here, liberal and conservative, that have stepped in and added some level of... well... honesty and it's reassuring to see that some of you folks at least have a grasp over what is (and isn't) going in D.C.

-Jesse

By Pharaohl97 (Pharaohl97) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Weslshei...i would like you to point out the half-trutsh and exaggerations and enlighten us all of the TRuth

aLSO, how can you all talk about ann coulter...she is the most psycho []itch i have ever had the misfortune to be confronted with.

About the oil thing. It is under bush control. American monitors all the major oil wells in the world. We have amazing control over OPEC because we are their biggest costumers. Infact, bush administration actually told opec to cut back on oil production because prices were too low and then told them to pull production up aruond november...that story just leaked.

And why dont people quit blaming everything on 9/11...the economy was going downhill long before 9/11...bush popularity ratings were at like 60%...everyone disliked him...he was just successful in convincing people that 9/11 was to balme for everythign and to support him

deceit was his main tool in government...

By Bumblebee83 (Bumblebee83) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:11 pm: Edit

What way of life has shrub prevented? Well, he hates gays and he advocates discrimination against the, he has done more to overturn women's rights then any other president, his patriot act unfairly targets Muslims who have done absolutley nothing wrong... hmm

By Tommgurrl5 (Tommgurrl5) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

This post is really quite funny. Where do you all get the opinions about? Where do you hear the "facts" about whats going on. Are you in the CIA? Yea didn't think so. So in other words you just believe everything that the media feeds you. Don't worry i don't care. I just think it is funny that most of you are only repeating things that you have no idea whether they are true or some fabrication to boost newspaper sales. Personally I don't agree with everything that Bush has done, but I believe that he is the best president we have had in a long time.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Tommgurll, your right. Most anti-bush liberals have very weak knowledge of why they do not like him outside of baseless one liners that other liberals tell them like
"bush hates gays".
Does Cheany hate his gay daughter? Why is kerry against gay marriage?
Or "Bush lied". Does the word of congress, weapons inspectors, the UN, and former Iraqi scientists who all agreed that saddam didnt account for weapons lie also. Would Bush lie about something so easily discovered once we take action?

There are a lot more ; most (not all) liberals here shallow one line stuff from others that is easy to regurgitate and just echo them as truths, these were some examples. It is very easy to throw out critisisms, espessially baseless ones.

By Meekchun (Meekchun) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Did you see the picture of 8 yr old kid whose head was cut as half at Iraq war? He was killed as eyes opened by bombing.
Who killed that poor boy without any reason?

By Sraid7777 (Sraid7777) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:52 pm: Edit

he is a ridiculously religious evangelical who is easily manipulated by other evangelicals. Go to www.frontline.com and see "teh jesus factor". You'll understand what I'm saying.

By Browninfall (Browninfall) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:55 pm: Edit

There's a difference between being opposed to gay marriage and "hating" gays. John Kerry's opposed to gay marriage too. Does he "hate" gays? Specifically, what women's rights has President Bush overturned? What in the Patriot Act specifically targets Muslims - an Act, by the way, that was supported by a significant majority in Congress (Democrats and Republicans alike)? Most of the comments here are nothing but sound bites.

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit

HA! i'd like to see where you "o-so-holy conservatives" pick up your rhetoric. or am i mistaken and you came up with everything you said on your own. give me a break! of course we liberals use arguments we've heard and seen before. i'll bet conservatives do the same. look at faux news. they give the most crooked and biased news you can find on cable. don't tell me i'm spouting lies. i'll leave that for the president to do. o wait, i'll back up that statement before you conservatives shat your pants. here: http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

while we're on the subject of, "how funny this post is," or "how silly liberals are," i'll talk about what i think is funny:

"For the record, I'm not thrilled with Bush either. But if he's the evil person the liberals make him out to be, Kerry would be leading polls by a landslide. It's really sad that Kerry, when you stick him next to Bush, doesn't look like that much better of a candidate. I think it's pretty sad that these are supposed to be our two best people to run the country."

"I'm not the biggest fan of Bush, but i'm also not a big fan of Kerry, what are you gonna do about it. Although, i'd appreciate if you'd dish out more factual information, opposed to stuff that could be up for interpretation."

"Personally I don't agree with everything that Bush has done, but I believe that he is the best president we have had in a long time."

these are just three quotes from above posts. if you don't agree with him, then why vote for him? also, how can you back up the statement that kerry won't do a better job. that's one of my favorites. "well bush isn't that good, but kerry is worse so i'm voting for bush." what a load of crap!!! kerry has twice as much political experience as bush and has clearly proven himself capable of the job. please explain to me what you THINK bush does better than kerry might. i myself have trouble thinking about this. bush really hasn't done much good at all. let's all face it, it's time for change.

By Sraid7777 (Sraid7777) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

bush ended up witha C+ average at Yale. Not to mention he had a drinking problem and Laura almostleft him.

By Magoo (Magoo) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Eyesclozedtight...YESSS (sighs)
My hero.

By Pharaohl97 (Pharaohl97) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Find it funny that when people opposed to bush say things about him you people spit out your personal ideas that anti-bush individuals lack political knowledge, yet everything in support of bush is factual. See, the beauty of the AMerican society is that every citizen has the ability to be informed of what is going on in his or her country. The government, should not be secret! Anything bush has done or hasn't done is public knowledge. You dont need the CIA for that.

By Browninfall (Browninfall) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Sound bites.

By Welshie (Welshie) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 09:32 pm: Edit

"Weslshei...i would like you to point out the half-trutsh and exaggerations and enlighten us all of the TRuth..."

No problemo, mi amigo.

"2. I spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury."
-He spent the surplus in an attempt to rebuild the economy. Anyone here (that has taken Macroecon) knows that increasing government spending attempts to increase aggregate demand in an attempt to build up the economy, albeit creating a deficit.

"3. I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history."
-Again, increasing spending is an attempt to rebuild the economy but it does leave a deficit but such is life in Keynesian theory (I'm not a fan, but hey, he is).

"5. I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market."
-Yes, he presided in it but that drop was perpetuated by the fraud of corporate executives that began their fraud during Clinton's presidency.

"9. After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history."
-Is it really necessary to point out the fact he was vacationing here? In addition to that, there are allegations that even Clinton's office had information about possible Al Qaeda attacks. The truth is, we/they don't know but are conducting an investigation on it.

"11. During my first two years in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs."
-A few things here. First, the business cycle. After a huge surge in the economy (Clinton) it was going to go down eventually. This was such a concern that many members within the Republican party had warned Bush to not take the presidency and to just wait four years and then run for office. Next, when huge companies, with huge employee numbers, are found fraudulent and are left bankrupt, you better believe many people are going to be unemployed and once again, this fraudulence cannot be blamed on Bush.


"25. I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world."
-Last time, the fraud within those companies cannot be blamed on Bush.

There's a few for now. Anywho, I'll finish up by saying, despite what you might be assuming right now, I'm a pretty liberal character, through and through, I just don't like to see other liberals making fools of themselves. Take it easy, amigo.

-Jesse

By Shhh (Shhh) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

if you know nothing about politics, you cant bash anyone in politics

By Browninfall (Browninfall) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:18 pm: Edit

I have a bit of advice for my college confidential friends on the left. I offer it freely becaue I know that you won't pay any attention to it.

Hatred of President Bush won't defeat him in November. Most people really don't pay much attention to what goes on in Washington and they tend to tune out those who sound hysterical in ranting about the President. Last week Bill Clinton told those at a MoveOn.org fundraiser that "it isn't enough for you to be venomous and angry. Don't be mad. Smile. Be glad."

Do you really think that all of the "Republicans are Nazis" allusions will play with all of those folks who pay little attention to any of this? You sound like kooks when you say this sort of stuff. You're not going to build a winning anti-Bush coalition on anger.

By Crypto86 (Crypto86) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:25 pm: Edit

For all you 18+ aged people out there, this is serious stuff here:

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg

This is about proposed legislation for a draft. We need to get the war hawk republicans out - anyone over 18 please vote for John Kerry.

On a lighter note, go check out this site - it actually works!

http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com

By Sraid7777 (Sraid7777) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:27 pm: Edit

who the •••• cares? THe democratic party is just as ridiculous. Neither them nor the bastard republicans will ever do anything. We need an intellectual oligarchy.

or a benevolent dictator.

By Welshie (Welshie) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Bravo Browninfall, bravo. I might not agree with you on most political issues but it's nice to see someone come in and add some level of... hmm, coherence.

-Jesse

By Ambitiousyokel (Ambitiousyokel) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Yes, sraid777, I'm sure we all want to take tips on how to improve our government from an Iranian.

"who the **** cares?" is honestly one of the stupidest posts I've ever seen.

By Averagemathgeek (Averagemathgeek) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Crypto86,

I hate to burst your bubble but both of the acts concerning the draft were introduced by Democrats, not the "war hawk republicans."

By Hunter1985 (Hunter1985) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit

"Okay, I need help in my arguments when I try to bash Bush. I don't know enough about politics to back up my position. I do know the Bush is a complete idiot. "

Translation: I'm totally ignorant when it comes to politics, but my friends/Al Franken/Michael Moore have told me that Bush is an idiot, and they're who all the "cool" people follow, so therefore that's what I believe as well.

By Poobah3k (Poobah3k) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 11:45 pm: Edit

If the election were today I would vote for neither Bush nor Kerry. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how one can build up hatred for a public official. If you don't like him, don't vote for him. Besides, it seems like the overwhelming majority of political hatred - on both sides - is based on exaggerations, half-truths, and paranoia. Browninfall hit the nail on the head - this anger isn't going to win over undecided voters like myself.

By Sraid7777 (Sraid7777) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:09 am: Edit

Yes, sraid777, I'm sure we all want to take tips on how to improve our government from an Iranian.


douche bag. Interestingly enough, I've lived in NY my entire life, so not only am I more open-minded than you are, I actually have a culture. i.e. I don't have these ridiculous questions like "who am I" that so many full blooded american kids seem to have. You are simply ignorant to state that because my parents are from so and so country, it condescends or disqualifies my opinion. •••• you. Go tend the sheep, or put a patch on your overalls.

By Sraid7777 (Sraid7777) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:11 am: Edit

oh and when I said who the •••• cares, I was refering to


Hatred of President Bush won't defeat him in November

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:06 am: Edit

I didnt hear any of you liberals complain during clinton's time when the unemployment rate at the end of his first term was higher than it is now. I didnt here any of you liberals blaming Clinton for being a draft dodger like you blame Bush for serving in the national guard, even though he was not undermining a mission like kerry was about his unit (20/22 of his unit does not support him and asked him to stop using them in pictures). I didnt hear any of you liberals scream about outright admitted lying by Clinton, but you shout the sound byte that Bush is a liar, even though the UN, Weapons Inspectors, former iraqi scientists, congress, and the cia all "lied" as well by saying saddam had not account for the weapons of mass destruction he used 10 yrs back.

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:19 am: Edit

wow. wow wow wow. you'll just never get it! NOBODY CARES WHO BILL CLINTON SLEPT WITH!!! SHUT UP ABOUT IT BECAUSE WE DON'T CARE! BUSH LIED AND PEOPLE DIED. CLINTON'S ISSUE WAS BETWEEN HIM AND HIS WIFE!!! wow. i can't believe someone who i thought was intelligent used that as an argument. as well, clinton isn't a chicken hawk like bush is. clinton never started a war. i'll give you the unemployment rate comment, but that post really disappointed me, Jlg3d3. i expected better from you.

By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:55 am: Edit

Bush didn't lie. The head of the fricken CIA told him there is absolute proof that Iraq has or is planning a weapons program of mass destruction. You need to understand, Bush thinks he is doing right for the country, he doesn't purposely lie, just to screw over an entire country. You may disagree with what he's doing, but that doesn't make him a liar.

By Welshie (Welshie) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 04:48 am: Edit

The major thing Bush has done (in relation with the WMD bit) was his set of tactless "comedy antics" at that major conference. Definitely distasteful in mine eyes.

-Jesse

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:39 am: Edit

Welshie, you must be refering to that "Bush the comedian" video circulating around the internet. I hope the "definitely distasteful in mine eyes" part is a joke; if not, then you need to know that that's not a real video!

By Monarchsfan16 (Monarchsfan16) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:40 am: Edit

Wow.
Why exactly are people so upset about the Patriot Act? This whole "civil liberties" argument and liberal attitude are what brought us 9/11 in the first place. In all honesty, they can strip-search everyone at the airports for all I care. Just as long as there are no more terrorist attacks. Isn't that the most important thing for a president to do? Keep his people SAFE.
Hm...the economy. Does anyone actually realize that the economy started going downhill, BEFORE President Bush was even elected. And then it got worse because of the 9/11 attacks. The economy isn't Bush's fault. And has anyone noticed that the economy IS getting better?
Clinton never started a war? Exactly, because he was too busy sleeping around. Had he been paying attention orginally, our CIA wouldn't have been cut the way it was, which led to serious intelligence failures (9/11, Iraq war), and we might have gotten bin Laden, one of the first 3 times he attacked the nation, all under Clinton. Especially since they KNEW where he was. But Clinton was too busy sleeping around.
Bush didn't lie; our CIA has serious problems, and did have "intelligence" that Iraq had WMD's. Bush did what he felt was right, and if you think a country is going to do something against the nation you're in charge of, its generally better to do something before they can melt all your people. It's not his fault he got bad info.
And BTW, Saddam Hussein is a terrorist. Maybe not to the Americans, but we're fighting a global war on terror. I believe the definition of a terrorist is one who inflicts terror upon others, through his actions. Saddaam inflicted huge amounts of terror on the Iraqis. I go to school with a girl who moved here from Iraq a few years ago. The stories would make anyone realize that even 9/11 was nothing compared to what this jerk was capable of. And 9/11 was bad. I am not trying to downplay that.

By Ishouldflee (Ishouldflee) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:42 am: Edit

thank you Eyesclozedtight
bravo

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:47 am: Edit

So many people have such a deep emotional attachment with politics (of all things!). The Democratic and Republican parties in the U.S. have very similar views, and their economic policies are nearly identical. Yet, Democrats and Republicans are like night and day. It seems that most people are more interested in simply identifying with a group than doing it for ideological reasons.

By Welshie (Welshie) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 10:45 am: Edit

"Welshie, you must be refering to that "Bush the comedian" video circulating around the internet. I hope the "definitely distasteful in mine eyes" part is a joke; if not, then you need to know that that's not a real video!"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3570845.stm

By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 10:57 am: Edit

ROTFLMAO! I can't believe he actually did that!

I'm a bit reluctant to fully believe that because it is published by the BBC, but I wouldn't be completely surpised if it was true. He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but that doesn't make him a bad president.

By Welshie (Welshie) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 11:29 am: Edit

Oh I'm not saying it makes him a bad president, I, as an individual with friends in the Marines that are fighting in Iraq, think it distasteful and tactless. If you don't believe BBC you can definitely check other sites-- I'm fairly certain CNN had some coverage of it.

-Jesse

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 12:47 pm: Edit

"Clinton never started a war? Exactly, because he was too busy sleeping around. Had he been paying attention orginally, our CIA wouldn't have been cut the way it was, which led to serious intelligence failures (9/11, Iraq war), and we might have gotten bin Laden, one of the first 3 times he attacked the nation, all under Clinton. Especially since they KNEW where he was. But Clinton was too busy sleeping around."

looks like someone didn't do their homework. the clinton administration held a meeting on the terrorist issue daily. bush's administration before 9-11 had one. ONE WHOPPING MEETING!!! then YOU have the gall to blame the clinton administration? clinton gave bush everything he needed to prevent 9-11 from happening. remember that whole scenario with richard clarke that the right wing media think tank would just rather you forgot about? he admitted that bush had done nothing under oath. after all, he was tired of, "swatting flies." or maybe you forget that the clinton administration thwarted attacks against the US twice. one targeting LAX and another on the world trade center. BTW, if you're so concerned that clinton never caught bin laden, why aren't you upset that bush hasn't? 9-11 was on his hands. or wait, was he too busy having 2nd graders read to him that morning?

by your standards, it is clear that bush is a terrorist too.

P.S. you sound REALLY stupid when you use clinton "sleeping around" in your argument. i can do the same with facts and say bush was too busy driving his pick up truck. where were you august 6th, 2001? i know where bush was.

By Pharaohl97 (Pharaohl97) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Firstly, many terrorist attacks were prevented in the clinton administration...we just didn't hear about them.

I am positive that bush knew the weapons did not exist. IF the president of the united states doesn't know whats going on, then god help us all.

A tax cut like that could never fix the economy and politicans from both parties argued against it before it destroyed the surplus.

Going by the definition of a recession, the failing economy began during the Bush administration. We were officially in a resession one month after 9/11. That means the economy had been in decline for like 6 months. Also, I am sooo tired of everything being blamed on 9/11. Im tired of the right using such a tragedy to shift the blame from their own policies. Everything was going bad before 9/11. Dont use fear of terrorist so as to block out american understandings.

Also, I think it is sad that anyone would rather give up all their constitutionary rights just to be safe from terrorist as a poster said above. Without our freedoms we are nothing. America is built on such freedoms and to give htem up to protect ourselves from terrorist is doing their job for them. Also, how long do you think it will take some politician to use the patriot act to harm americans. That act tramples all over our fundmental rights, 1st,3rd,4th,5th,6th amendments and even more than that. To protect America we need to protect our rights and priviledges.

Thats why most politicians are looking forward to that acts end.

By Pharaohl97 (Pharaohl97) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

When they took back the 5th amendment, I said nothing for I would never be guilty

When they took back the 4th amendment, I said nothing for I had nothing to hide

When they took back the 2nd amendment, I said nothing for I did not own a gun

When they took back the 1st amendment, I said nothing because I couldn't

By Sheeprun (Sheeprun) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:08 pm: Edit

This thread moved to Cafe.

<moderator>

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

that quote rocked my world, pharaoh.

By Taru (Taru) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:24 pm: Edit

You're right, Welshie--Bush did have that slideshow (there are news articles on it from The New York Times and other sources, for anyone interested). Making a joke of not being able to find WMD is disgraceful. If one of my children died for his war and then I saw that....

By Allena (Allena) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit

It's interesting, there is more bitterness towards Bush then any American President I've ever seen. Granted I've only been alive for a couple, a only vaguly remember the Reagan administration.

All this thread honestly is a continuation of the Liberal vs. Conservitive thread. What I find so interesting is how many of us young people are exetremely liberal! Personally I'm Republican, and I actually think Bush has done a good job, but I won't go beuyond that since I'm not in the mood for a political battal right now.

By Nmoreno1 (Nmoreno1) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:30 pm: Edit

From a site:

1) Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history;
2) Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period;
3) Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market;
4) First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history;
5) After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history;
6) In his first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs;
7) Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history;
8) Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history;
9) Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history;
10) Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed;
11) Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans;
12) Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest a sitting American President, shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind;
13) Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history;
14) First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt;
15) Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world;
16) First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation;
17) Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States;
18) Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history;
19) First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission;
20) First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board;
21) All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations;
22) Biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation);
23) Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history;
24) Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history);
25) With a policy of 'disengagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years;
26) Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view his presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability;
27) First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea;
30) Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts;
31) Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts;
32) Failed to fulfill his pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive';
33) Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months he has no leads and zero suspects;
34) In the 18 months following the 911 attacks he successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States;
35) Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history;
36) Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category straight down.

By Averagemathgeek (Averagemathgeek) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Taru et al.,

What is wrong with having a sense of humor? Bush was not trying to disgrace the soldiers fighting in Iraq. He was merely telling a joke.

You are putting too much thought into a trivial issue.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:10 pm: Edit

I have to say I agree with Eddie Vedder when he commented at a concert last week that even if Kerry is the 2nd worst president in history, he'll be better than the one we have now.

By Taru (Taru) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Averagemathgeek: The Bush administration's main reason to go into Iraq was to get rid of Saddam's WMD in the "War on Terror." First off, the WMD intelligence was false. If I were fighting in the war, I sure as •••• wouldn't want the president making a joke out of the reason I'm supposedly there in the first place. Do you think the soldiers laughed when they heard of this "joke"?

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" --John Kerry, speaking of Vietnam

By Averagemathgeek (Averagemathgeek) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Taru,

I am not sure if the soldiers found it funny; they might have. However, the intention of the joke was to loosen up the crowd and have some fun.

"A sense of humor is part of the art of leadership, of getting along with people, of getting things done." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower

By Perry (Perry) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 05:57 pm: Edit

"It's interesting, there's more bitterness toward Bush than any Amercian president I have ever seen."

Alena -- The furor Richard Nixon's conduct during the Watergate conspiracy and his foreign policy concerning the war in Southeast Asia make the current administration look like saints. In many ways, the Bush administration is the most secretive since the Nixon presidency and has been engaged in trying to rollback legislative oversight of the executive branch to Nixonion times. Bush's VP Dick Cheney, who has become the most powerful Vice President in American history, appears to be the architect of this strategy to reassert the presidential prerogatives at the expense of the public's right to know about the actions of their government. We can only hope that the Bush administration fails in its efforts to construct a higher wall of privacy around the White House.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

The economy started slipping in 2000, during Clintons admin and during the tech collapse. It got even worse because of 9/11. But it is improving at a very fast rate now, even better than at times of Clinton.

Why are you hateful people not calling the UN, Congress, CIA, Iraqi scientists, Bill Clinton, and others liars as well. They all said Saddam had not accounted for the weapons of mass destruction he used in the first gulf war. Bush just had the courage to act on this and topple a tryant who was very dangerous to the region and world. You guyes are laughable and are activly looking for reasons to hate Bush instead of activly looking for facts. You are not going to win anyone over with your anger. The US is doing just fine no matter how much you want to show we are falling apart.
Eyesclosed, I was not critisizing Clinton, but showing the hypocracy of you liberals who accuse your President of lying to you when it is so obvious he did not lie while Clinton clearly lied to a grand jury and the nation, accuse your president on the economy even though it is getting stronger and currenty stronger than Clinton economy during 96 and 2000, critisize the Bush on the envirnment even though Bush is for keeping the same standards that Clinton and the past 7 presidents had for water and air.

By Taru (Taru) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Jlq, the reason I so dislike the administration is because I do "actively look for facts."

I think it would be interesting if just after our posts we listed our sources of news and whether we watch/read/listen daily, weekly, whatever. Just to see where people are getting their information. This isn't meant as a way to one-up the other posters--if you watch Fox News daily, say so; if you read Newsweek, say so, etc.

Me: NY Times, Boston Globe, and Le Monde (all daily); The New Yorker whenever possible; PBS occasionally.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 11:43 pm: Edit

I was reffering to people like the original poster. I was not saying all liberals dont learn about topics, I was sating some do.
My sources are everything : All major networks and cable networks, talk radio, Time, LA Times, and various political books leftist and right.

By Gottagetout (Gottagetout) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 12:06 am: Edit

I would just like to say that, for all the flames, some people still don't bother to research what they argue...

earlier it was claimed that Clinton never started wars *cough* the Balkans *cough*. We went into the Balkans for purely human rights reasons. We went into Iraq for that and more. Iraq may be worse. Iraq may be different. And the evidence mounts. Bill Clinton ordered missile strikes against Iraq in 1998 using the same justification as Bush used. There is no denying, however, that someone didn't bother to check their facts and now they look the fool.

Furthermore, Clinton (and previous presidents) lied copiously as well. Not only did Clinton perjure himself (albeit under dubious circumstances), he also reneged on campaign promises (like most presidents) and lied about bombing the Serbs and Somalia (speaking of which, gunboats were ordered to fire into civilian apartment complexes to attempt to kill a local warlord). Not to mention bizarre Whitewater, Arkansas, Vince Foster, missing files, and nuclear secrets irregularities.

This is not to say that Clinton is better or worse than Bush. I only wish to bring facts and unbiased sanity to the table.

By Perry (Perry) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 10:40 am: Edit

Gottagetout --

Clinton did not start the war in the Balkans. It began as a result of the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia after the death of Tito and the
fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. These events unleashed nationalist and ethnic/religious violence. The Americans and NATO belatedly entered the conflict on humanitarian grounds to end the catastrophe.

By Scubasteve (Scubasteve) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 01:04 pm: Edit

if you dont support the acting president of the united states you are a communist.

By Gottagetout (Gottagetout) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Perry:

Belatedly is right. Quite a few years later. Milosevic et al were already in power fairly securely and propagating terror. I believe that it was right for us to go in and stop the strife. However, many of the same points can be made for Saddam Hussein. He took over when the president at the time, Ahmed Hassan Bakr, could no longer continue (because of illness/death). He then began putting thousands to death. Sure, this happened in 1979. The US entered this war "belatedly". More belatedly than the Balkans. We were not obligated to go into either country. The Balkans was probably a safer bet and we never engaged in any kind of massive assault or groundwar under Clinton, but there's no denying that it was war and he made the decision to enter it.

Furthermore, there are the issues of Afghanistan, Sudan, Rwanda, and Somalia. There are probably more. Clinton didn't commit thousands upon thousands of troops or capture countries, but he was not afraid of using deadly force and possibly killing civilians. Most presidents aren't. Nor should they be if they have reason. I merely wish to make the point that Clinton was not that different in this respect from other presidents, Bush included.

By Allena (Allena) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Did you all hear that Bush was injured yesterday riding his bike??? I can't believe that an American president would put himself at risk like that!!! Or what about two years ago when he choked on a pretzel??? I mean come on! That thing was loaded in sodium and is not good for his health! Plus what kind of president would put his life in danger by not chewing his food throughly. Personally I think that this shows our weakness to the rest of the world!

So now I bet I've got some of you thinking I'm out of my mind. Well after reading though some of those lists about what a terrible person and president Bush is I'm not sure why. As a culture I know we like to place blame, and the president is an easy target, however several of the things on those above lists attack him for things he is not in charge of!

Do I think Bush has been the best president in the history of this nation? No, I believe we've had better. However Bush has also had one of the most complicated terms in recent history.

For a moments lets just assume that Iraq had actually had these WMD. For the fun of it lets say that Bush decided that it would be better to leave Iraq be, and stick to diplomatic warfare. Well to keep the fun going, let's say that Saddam decided to use on of those weapons on either the US, or one of those nations that we're close with. Could you imagin how much we would have hated Bush for NOT going to war at that point? If that were the case we would be having this same discussion here, about how badly Bush failed for not going into Iraq eariler.

While I don't think he's been the best president in American history, I also think he's done a much better job then people give him credit for.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 04:18 pm: Edit

"Could you imagin how much we would have hated Bush for NOT going to war at that point? If that were the case we would be having this same discussion here, about how badly Bush failed for not going into Iraq eariler."

Allena:
You hit the nail on the head. The ironic thing is the sept 11 commitee and the blood seeking liberals are trying to peg the blame on Bush for 9/11 and not taking action to prevent it. And then I thought to myself, imagine if 5/10/15 years down the line, Saddam used the same chemical/biological/and maybe nuclear weapons that he used in the first gulf war against us, allies, or others and caused multiple times more causalties than 9/11. The world and the US would be outraged that our President was to "stupid" not to listen to the UN, Weapons Inspectors, Congress, CIA, FBI, former Iraqi scientists, and simple logic (if saddam used them 10 yrs back, what makes us think he destroyed them on his own will) and stop the evil tyrant before using them.

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 05:46 pm: Edit

hind sight is always 20-20. that goes for folks on both sides of the spectrum. now i can understand why the bush administration was quite certain iraq had the weapons. after all, dick cheney did sell them WMD in the 80s when saddam was supposedly our "friend." now setting aside the fact that iraq really had no means to attack the U.S.(but very well could have israel), i'll ask a question i asked before: was it really the smartest idea for the most self proclaimed christian country/administration to attack one of the most muslim countries? i'd say no; which was why i was opposed to the war from the get-go. on top of that was it smart to go in with the idea that we'd be in and out in 30 days and that the iraqis would revere us as liberators? you have to admit it, the whole plan was pretty half assed for something that was planned before 9-11.

i guess the difference in what you describe, Jlq, is that bush actually received a PDB on august 6th titled, "bin laden determined to strike within the U.S." but he was on vacation after all.

o and by the way, there IS a country in which you describe. it's called north korea.

P.S. wasn't it convenient that bush had his doctor there with him on the bike ride though? ;)

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 07:37 pm: Edit

I did not know we are a self proclaimed christian country. I am not christian, and have never heard our country proclaim itself as such.
We never said wed be out in 30 dayes, again false statement.
North Korea is a current example of why it was smart to topple saddam now, before he becomes what he was trying to become, a nuclear power. Now we are in a sticky/danerous situation with North Korea.

By Allena (Allena) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 09:08 pm: Edit

That's what is great about America, we are not a christian nation! We have no national religion, we've got that thing in our constitution about the seperation of church and state.

By Shortcakefairy (Shortcakefairy) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 09:56 pm: Edit

That's what is great about America, we are not a christian nation! We have no national religion, we've got that thing in our constitution about the "separation of church and state."

Although I know we aren't a "Christian" theocratic nation (and i in no way would endorse one)...if you actually read the Constitution, it never says there is *SEPARATION* of Church and state...or anything about preventing religion from entering the public/political arena...

Read it yourself..all it says is that the government is not allowed to establish an "OFFICIAL" faith or discriminate against other belief systems and religions.

It never says that Church and State are distinct and separate entities.

By Shortcakefairy (Shortcakefairy) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 10:05 pm: Edit

i have a short attention span and coudln't read all the posts..but I was skimming through it and someone had posted that Bush was handed the strongest economy in our nation's history!

that's total BS! in actuality, the economy was already in a tank in 2000...and if you don't believe it research it. Also, talk to any expert stock analyst today and they will express their optimism about the economic state we're in today :-)!

Besides, the economy has nothing to do with the actions of the government! It has an affect on the margin, (just as other outside factors: Example, Nixon and Stagflation..the reason why there was stagflation was the vast increase in Oil prices) but the overall economy works on a cycle: it grows and retracts, grows and retracts..that's just how our economy has worked..Always has and always will.

If i were old enough to vote, i'd vote for the President that is willing to do whatever it is in his power to keep the country safe and America the strongest nation in the world.

GO BUSH =)!

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 10:22 pm: Edit

despite what the constitution says, george w. bush thinks he is on a mission from god!!! he's said it numerous times that the lord told him to do this. if that doesn't send off alarms for you, then i don't know what does. he says, "god is on our side." http://www.duckdaotsu.org/prez-god.html

thanks to your friend, george, we are now in a religious jihad.

and you're right, i am sorry, we are not a self proclaimed christian nation. but over 75% is christian, opposed to .5% of muslims. that's a big deal, and the arab world knows it.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

the difference between north korea and iraq, is that north korea had openly admitted it's nuclear powers, while iraq only had aluminum tubes. why didn't we attack north korea first? was bush too chicken? were there not enough coalition troops? was there not enough oil there?

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 10:52 pm: Edit

LOL. We attacked iraq first because a) Iraq violated UN resolution 1441, there was no resolution for korea. b)we attacked iraq first because we dont want it to turn into a situation like korea, where it is very dangerous to go in because of nuclear warfare.

ANd the president can be as religious as he wants, that does not mean the US is a self proclaimed christian nation. That is laughable. And what are you saying, nations should only be involved with nations that are of the same religion?

By Allena (Allena) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:04 pm: Edit

I very much doubt we've entered Iraq because Bush decided to launch a Jihad. We're in Iraq because there was a humanitarian crisis, and we were under the impression that bthey presented a clear and present danger to the United States.

Just because the president has a religion does not mean that the entire country is required to convert to that religion.

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

why are you laughing at me? what you just said didn't make any sense. we went to war with iraq because they supposedly had WMD. and besides, if we were to attack a country based on a UN resolution, we would have attacked israel years ago right? or maybe turkey, morrocco, sudan, croatia, indonesia, or cyprus right?
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/36457.php

i'm saying the arab world hates america. if we wanted any "peace" we wouldn't have gone in unilaterally. stop trying to save face. anyone in there right mind would rather more countries go in with america.

By Jenesaispas (Jenesaispas) on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:33 pm: Edit

What I think it's time for is the United States to learn from its mistakes. Clearly going into Iraq alone was a bad choice, given what's happening now. I'm no fan of Bush's international policy, but I sure support him on other facets of his campaign. I say that we just get the UN involved as quickly as possible, and hopefully, this time, the top officials won't be illegitimately skimming money off programs like Oil-for-Food, etc.

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 01:43 am: Edit

Resolution 1441 wasnt just a resolution. It had a stipulation that if Iraq did not comply, force would be used. Your paralell is specious.

And we did not go in unilaterally. There were about 40 countries that supported us. Just because france and germany did not support us does not mean they are correct. We didnt choose to go in unilatterally, those countries chose not to support us. We invited and petitioned for their support. Of wed rather more countries would have supported that. That is pretty obvious. And even though most Iraqies are against occupation, an overwhelming majority also support our toppling of Saddam, so they do not exactly hate us in Iraq. I am sure the 300,000 iraqis murdered and tortured by Saddam would not of hated us if we finished the job in '91.

By Takempa (Takempa) on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 02:24 am: Edit

It's interesting reading excerpts from the 2000 Republican Platform: http://andrewtobias.com/newcolumns/040521.html

By Gidget (Gidget) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:17 am: Edit

I know I make a point about being Canadian and I am glad to be from my country and I am glad that Americans have such pride in their country and I am glad that some of you feel the way you do about Bush. I think he may be the worst president in the history of America. The Irag war was unpresidented- 9/11 was a tragedy and my friends father died in it so I know- I have known him since i was 6 and he was like my dad but the war was a mistake- Afgan terrorist commit a tragedy so lets destroy Irag- for their Oil. - Thats some good logic-
Bush showed his true colours as a warmonger going against the UN and the rest of the world.
The best example of Bush is the new Micheal Moore movie Farenheight 9/11- you have to see it. Soo good.-I saw it at a preview it opens in a few weeks- Bowling for Colombine was good too.

I just hope that in the next election he loses, I mean how much faith can you have in a man who is Quoted by -Every major news paper ( washington, New York, Atlanta) for, in his pre election speech improving and telling potentail voters that they " misunderestimated me" ( it's true)

By Scubasteve (Scubasteve) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:13 pm: Edit

This whole debate is pointless because Bush will be gone in a few months.

I mean honestly now, do any of you really think he will be re-elected?

He's already down 7 points in the polls (huge margin for an incumbent at this stage in the election) and his approval rating sucks

Not to mention the 9/11 findings that have just been released surely do not help his case (found no direct link between Al Qaeda and Iraq)

The Reagan Family (keep in mind that Reagan is supposdely Bush's "idol") even oppose Bush. Mrs Reagan and Patti Davis have spoke out numerous times about his opposition to stem cell research. Not to mention Ron Reagan took a swing at Bush's religious driven rule in his father's eulogy.

Sorry to say its true, but yes a movie (Fahrenheit 9/11) will almost definitely flip some undecided voters Kerry’s way ("we must stop these terrorist killers, now watch this drive" ---kind of hard to shake that image, I mean Howard Dean was destroyed by an innocent "YEAAARRRGGG")

My prediction: not only will he lose (already down 7 points) its only going to get worse. He will lose in a landslide.

By Sarasote (Sarasote) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 05:41 pm: Edit

hahahaha 9-11 commission states there is no connection between al-qaida and iraq!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 09:56 pm: Edit

As much as I dislike Bush, I would not bet against his re-election yet.

In terms of absolute numbers, he has a hardcore base of about 45 percent of the vote. The anybody-but-Bush faction is about 45 percent of the vote. Thus there are 10 percent of the voters, disproportionately non-partisan, under-informed, and who tend to particpate less than other voters, who hold the decision in their hands.

Looking at the electoral college makes the election even tighter right now with state polls in several key states running within the margin of error or just outside of it.

About the polls putting Bush behind, I don't take comfort in most of them because most are using Registered Voters as opposed to Likely Voters in their samples...tuning a poll towards LV will result, at least traditionally, in a boost for the GOP vote because GOP voters are more reliable are actually voting. [We *may* have an anomaly on that score this year because of the breadth and intensity of the opposition to Bush but we won't know until after the fact.]

[We've had a couple of other anomalies already, including the very weak effect of Bush's massive ad barrage on Kerry's poll numbers and the fact that Kerry is down only by a margin of 3-2 in fundraising, which is a staggering accomplishment when you consider the lead that Bush started with.]

As for Michael Moore, I think he's an over-the-top uncontrolled, probably unpleasant in person, possibly unethical filmmaker. All of which in no way negates the essential crux of his charges against Bush.

I saw "Bowling for Columbine" and imo it would have been a stronger anti-gun argument if it had not gone so far out, e.g., the stuff about corporate influences of the defense industry; I think Moore must think that the more sh!t you throw, the more will stick.

Otoh, Bush's premises for invading Iraq were fraudulent and manipulated, the plan for post-conflict Iraq totally ill-considered (based on the assumption that we could transplant Chalabi for Hussein and ignoring the State Department's "Future of Iraq" project that had a far more realistic assessment of the plate tectonics of Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish populations), the doctrine of unilateral preemptive force damaged 50+ years of American diplomacy and on the level of proof employed could be used in any number of conflicts that we would oppose, e.g., China/Taiwan, India/Pakistan, or even Serbia/Bosnia.

The administration's notion that the future of Iraq will be stable, democratic, and pro-American is a willful fairy-tale...choose any two.

Even though Bush's plans for Iraq have been converging with Kerry's over the past year, e.g., degree of UN involvement, Bush should be ejected from office just for having got us *in* to Iraq in the condition we are now in.

Issues like womens rights, labor, environment, etc. I'll leave for partisan politics. Bush has taken the ship of state and aimed it for the rocks.


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