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I am absolutely excited about going to college and not having to worry about food--my vegan options will just be there, waiting for me! Who else is vegan and is glad that (hopefully) his college has vegan options?

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:47 am: Edit

Me! UCSB has a lot of Vegan options....it was nice everything was labeled in FT's cafeteria. Also, they had a soymilk dispenser just like the rest of the milk dispensers!

By Bigtymer2454 (Bigtymer2454) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 07:20 pm: Edit

ha! my apush teacher says vegans are just picky eaters who want attention. how true

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:17 pm: Edit

I'm not a vegan; vegetarian though. I can't imagine not even eating/drinking dairy products. You know animals aren't killed to get that stuff so whats the problem, if the reason isn't religious?

By Becks777 (Becks777) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Agree with Jason817

By Excusememixed (Excusememixed) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Big, fat, juicy, cheeseburger, and a big ol' milkshake sounds nice, eh?

By Xenowang (Xenowang) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Hell yeah. I can't imagine being vegan. Well, I can't imagine being vegetarian for that matter either. Where in the world would I get my obscene amounts of protein from then?

By Becks777 (Becks777) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Xenowang perhaps you could get out of College confidential for sometime and do a little bit of research to find out about the tons of proteins you can get from vegetarian foods

Like Jason i too am a vegetarian but i dont understand the point of being a vegan

By Itziar (Itziar) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 10:25 pm: Edit

I'm also a vegetarian!

By Xenowang (Xenowang) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

I'm well aware of the protein sources derived from vegetarian foods, but their amino acid chains are definitely not sufficient for my needs

By Guyute (Guyute) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 12:11 am: Edit

unless you eat and drink family farm dairy, the animals are treated just as poorly as those that are slaughtered for meat - they don't die, they suffer. they are loaded with hormones and chemicals to make them produce milk at obscene rates which is sucked from them by harsh plastic tubes and metal machinery.

By Dagnytaggart (Dagnytaggart) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

Hey bigtymer, maybe your teacher secretly knows that his arteries are clogged and is trying to make himself feel better for not eating better in the first place. And why vegan? For health and the environment. If you still don't get it, do your own research--the information is all out there. And actually the one who wants attention is you. I'm just sincerely excited about my vegan future in college, but you just have nothing to do except trying to put others down. Go find yourself a nice little hobby--preferably one that is friendly to the environment.

By Mychocopie (Mychocopie) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:18 pm: Edit

I, also, am very excited about eating healthier in College. Both my parents eat very unhealthy and are, well,... large and unfortunately the more or less force their eating habits on me. I try to eat healthy but its hard when you are surrounded by a bad environment.

I am seriously interested in becomming a quasi-vegetarian in college. I think I could do without all meat except fish... and I like dairy products too. =D

I hope instead of gaining freshman 15 I will lose 15 in college. Ah well, we'll see

By Vegangirl (Vegangirl) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Jason, guyute is right. And plus, you realize they kill the animals once they've been worked and pushed to breaking for a few years, right?

But anyway, I don't mean to get into a vegan vs. meat eaters debate (been in plenty of them, believe me).

Good luck to all of you vegans going to college next year!! Will you all have vegan friendly dining halls, or will you be getting most of your food off-campus?

It's cool to see there are some other vegan CC-ers!

By Rakem (Rakem) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:49 am: Edit

Just wanted to say--the "harsh plastic tubes and metal machinery" didn't seem all that "harsh" when I saw them in action. The cows didn't seem to mind them at all--I think it'd be more painful for them to be milked out by someone with no idea of how to do it.

That said, I'm a vegetarian.

By Imahoya (Imahoya) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

i'm a vegetarian.

By Prisc (Prisc) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

it's good for cows to be milked like that- they need to get it out of them that way. Don't argue with me because that is the truth. Had this debate many times before.

My friends a vegan---man...don't know how you ppl do it. The food tastes nasty..and God made plenty animals for us to eat and get our nourishment.
She once said to me "if everyone in this world were to eat in front of a slaughterhouse, everyone would be a vegetarian"..nah..not true.Thats bullsh*t. I need my meat. As you can tell, I'm really against the whole veggie thing and it's your opinion, but don't go and preach about it.

By Prancer (Prancer) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Prisc, I think that perhaps you have your facts wrong, or maybe you were never informed on anything in the first place. I dont see how you can be 'against the whole veggie thing.' why are you 'against' us? I'm not 'against' meat eaters, I just dont like eating meat. Everyone does it for a different reason, so I wish you would more carefully consider your word usage next time you say something. And cows don't 'need' to be milked that way, because in nature they don't have machines and they seem to get along just fine. Sorry if I'm 'preaching'.....

By Taru (Taru) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit

I'm a vegetarian, too. And yeah, some omnivores here need to be more respectful...it's not like most of us are trying to "convert" you; like Prancer said, being a vegetarian/vegan is just our personal choice.

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Hey, I'm an omnivore and I ain't planning on disrespecting any of you who prefer not to eat meat. I personally like to eat meat and enjoy a good hamburger. I'm kind of getting sick of chicken though. My dad is obsessed with those damned squaking birds. I think if I can avoid chicken for four years, and instead substitute it with some vegetables or something else and have the occasional hambuger/steak I'll be fine and probably come out a lot healthier than I am now.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:30 pm: Edit

"The food tastes nasty..and God made plenty animals for us to eat and get our nourishment."

You ovbiously haven't tried much veggie foods. Just letting you know. Veggie doesnt mean containing only vegetables. There are MANY types of foods you can eat. As for the God comment, that is completely debateable and quite wrong IMO. If we were made to eat animals, why is our body designed to consume a vegeterian diet?

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:36 pm: Edit

And just to jump in the fray, taking the vegan side, how come humans are the only animals to consume the milk of other animals AND after the normal age of growth?? It is unnatural for us to be drinking cow milk at all, not to mention at age thirty.

By Becks777 (Becks777) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:55 pm: Edit

If its healthy why not?? Especially when its no harm to anyone

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 01:00 am: Edit

>>> The food tastes nasty..and God made plenty animals for us to eat and get our nourishment.

Not all of it. God also made more than enough plants to eat and "get our nourishment." And not everyone here believes in God.

>>> As you can tell, I'm really against the whole veggie thing and it's your opinion, but don't go and preach about it.

if you haven't noticed, the posters here don't even want to get into the argument of vegetarianism vs meat eating. It's about college dining options. It's closeminded people like you who're doing all the "preaching." How can you be against vegetarianism. Just because you "need" (actually, you don't) meat, doesn't mean others do. Are you a fascist?

Danny - the vegetarian options at my school are pitiful. I will be eating dinner rolls the next 4 years. Not vegan yet, but perhaps someday...

By Sostressedout (Sostressedout) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:13 am: Edit

You know if you don't milk a cow it'll die right? Why waste the milk? I can understand your guys' perspective on not eating meat, but why waste the milk and the eggs? I hope I don't souund narrow minded I just want to know why you guys think eating dairy products and eggs are so barbaric that you refuse to eat it.

By Sostressedout (Sostressedout) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:23 am: Edit

Starchybean, about the milk thing, I think its quite obviouse that the human race is quite different than all other races of animals. Why do we wear clothes, get eduacted, make money, etc. I totally respect your views on not eating meat because its cruel and the way these animals are killed is ridiculous, I agree with you actually, I've read some horrifying stories. But I do believe at the same time that meat and milk are essential parts of our diets and that there are ways to slaughter the animals in a decent way; this may sound like a contradiction but from where I'm comming from it actually makes sense. Thats just my opinion I'm sorry if offend you in any way.

By Vdevluk (Vdevluk) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:08 am: Edit

"slaughter the animals in a decent way"

hahahahahahaha. you've got to listen to yourself.

damn i miss chicken!! and prawns.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit

wow

(cows milk is for baby cows)
Dogs have milk too, as do many other animals...why not take some of theirs as well?


My personal reason for being against dairy is because the animals suffer horribly. They dont get to run around the field, they are stuck in a little cubicle with machines attached to their udders (sp?).
"a dairy cows life is a continuous cycle of impregnation, birth, and milking to provide only one thing-a constant supply of milk for human consumption and profit. she will be milked for 10 months out of the year, including 7 months of each of her consecutive 9 month pregnancies. two to three times a day, 7 days a week, she will be attached to an electric milking machine, like just another cog in a factory. then she will be returned to her cramped, narrow, concrete stall to do nothing but await the next milking."
And the chickens, for the eggs, arent treated much better. they are debeaked and it is common to deny the chickens food and water for days on end in order to shock their systems into another egg-layin cycle, this will result in detroying the hens immune system and gretly increases the risk of salmonella contamination of her eggs.


Milk isnt even good for you. Dairy products are naturally loaded with fat and cholesteral. Milk can be referred to as "liquid meat" because its nutritional content is so similar to animal flesh. Milk is also deficient in iron, is contaminated with pesticides, pus, and sometimes drgus and may come from cows infected with bovine leukemia virus, tuberculosis, and salmonella. also, feeding dairy products to human babies can cause colic, intestinal bleeding, constipation, allergies, and anemia and has been linked to the development of juvenile diabetes. for adults, dairy products have been implicated in heart disease, certain cancers, adult onset diabetes, and even osteoporrosis-the disease its supposed to prevent. as far as calcium, you can take it in vitamin form, orange juice, and many vegetables.


I think it is damn true that if many of u non veggies went to a slaughterhouse, you would at least think twice about eating your hamburger.
someone once said that if sluaghterhouses has glass walls, the world would turn vegetarian.
but thats just my opinion

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Sostressedout... I didn't say I don't eat meat. I love meat. I'm just saying drinking the milk of other animals is not good for you, nor natural.

By Lahlahlah (Lahlahlah) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

if you guys learned anything in biology about trophic levels youd know that eating other animals is necessary and is a part of life...

we must consume animals to get that extra 10% energy or else we disrupt the trophic levels by consuming primary producers instead

By Taru (Taru) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:00 pm: Edit

^ That's completely false for humans. And it's much more environmentally wasteful to have a cattle ranch than a produce farm.

In response to other posts, a mammal such as a cow does not have to have just given birth to produce milk. A single birth will get the milk flowing, but as long as the cow continues to be milked, milk will still be produced. Lactation is a result of hormones as well as stimulation of a mammal's udder/nipple. In other words, cows on a dairy farm are not continually pregnant.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

yeah? did u work on one? sorry, but im going to go with the facts because i got those statements from a reliable source. obviously they dont need to be pregnant to produce milk, but dont you think they would be efficient and produce more cows to add to the suffering cycle?? c'mon....think.........

By Taru (Taru) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:13 pm: Edit

It's basic biology, even though many people don't seem to be aware of it. What was your source?

As I've said before, I'm a vegetarian and very much against the terrible conditions found at many major farms, but there's no reason to be spreading misinformation.

By Itziar (Itziar) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:17 pm: Edit

I found Britbrat's source and it's a religious site. Not a scientific one. I'd post the address but it's probably against CC policy. Google part of what she wrote and you'll find it, too.

And yes, I'm a vegetarian who agrees w/Taru.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

what part is misinformation???

by the way, i got the info from action for animals (a vegan organization im a part of-no religion at all)

By Lahlahlah (Lahlahlah) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit

so agreed everyone here is concerned about the environment... well my suggestion to you is to eat more meat!

ya, thats right, the more meat you eat the less cows there are. this helps reduce problems associated by the overpopulation and overgrazing of cattle and the depletion and contamination of the limited water supply. the more meat you eat the less cows there are to pollute the world

by not eating the cows we just let them live and constantly reproduce like a growing bacteria colony until they infest the whole world and ultimately, bring doom upon the earth.

so if you fear for your life, care about your environment, or if you just like the taste of meat eat the cows!!!

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:02 am: Edit

Were you on crack cocaine when you thought of that plan, Lahlahlah? Don't you know what that would do to the dairy industry? The rise in cheese product prices alone would inflate the economy to dangerous proportions, not to mention the detriment that a lack of hamburgers on national barbecue holidays would cause. There'd be riots in the streets. Angry balding white men with their half dozen kids running around with their newly legalized assault rifles screaming for meat, burning down the soy factories. Are you nuts?! That would be AWFUL FOR AMERICA. YOU'RE NOT A PATRIOT! Insanity, Lahlahlah, insanity!

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:44 am: Edit

haha^

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:22 am: Edit

"by not eating the cows we just let them live and constantly reproduce like a growing bacteria colony until they infest the whole world and ultimately, bring doom upon the earth. "

replace 'cows' with 'humans'

By Vdevluk (Vdevluk) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:25 am: Edit

actually, the reason why there are so many cows is due to humans. you see there is a market for beef and etc, so we breed them on farms, devoting acres of space for them. then we beef em up on hormones and change their diet by feading them meat mush (and theyre vegetarian grazers!! - this is actually how mad cow disease came up) which makes them abnormally fat when they are very young. then you kill em and eat em.

so you see, if we didnt eat meat in the first place (or beef at least) the cow population would be much lower. it also doesnt mean their population would increase exponnentially. nature has a firm way of keeping most populations in check. there would be diseases and other predators. just think about it. (in case you dont agree, this happens all the time. other grazers like wildebeast, gazelle, zebra, etc all have their population in check, due to nature)

oh and i used to eat meat, but i stopped when i saw a goat being slaughtered. it was at a roast out. you should have seen its eyes.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:30 am: Edit

What % of meat eating Americans would you guess would turn into vegeterians if they actually saw an animal being slaughtered w/ their own eyes?

By Vdevluk (Vdevluk) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:32 am: Edit

oh, and milk is good for you. drink it.

By Vdevluk (Vdevluk) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:36 am: Edit

What % of meat eating Americans would you guess would turn into vegeterians if they actually saw an animal being slaughtered w/ their own eyes?

dont know, dont care. we have a great ability in our freedom of thought. everyone is entitled to do what he or she wants (of course, within limits of legal bounds)

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:51 am: Edit

just because you were told milk is good for you when you were a kid does not mean it's good for you. i will never drink something that contains pus.

By Taru (Taru) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit

You know milk is pasteurized, right? And it's not like only animal products have the possibility of being contaminated. There is a certain amount of food contamination permitted by law, meaning that mouse droppings, rat hairs, and insect eggs could be in your cereal.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Other animals kill each other for food, why can't humans?!

Vegetables have feelings too...

And for these reasons, I say:

EAT MEAT, GET PROTEIN!

By Budnick (Budnick) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit

It's not like the 2% on the side of the carton stands for 2% pus.

This reminds me of some obscure fact off a daytime talkshow that said if you flush with the toilet cover up then there's fecal matter on your toothbrush.

By Itziar (Itziar) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Lol, Budnick!

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 06:13 pm: Edit

"Other animals kill each other for food, why can't humans?!"

other animals kill other animals because it is essential for their survival

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

You know, since we're on this discussion, what's wrong with being carniverous? I'm not implying anything here... but I'm just asking. Swift wrote in his book, a Modest Proposal (which, yes, was intended to be somewhat humorous, but I don't believe he was being completely facetious) that it would be beneficial to eat our babies. It would keep the numbers of sick humans down, decrease global population (which would aid our environment and therefore help everyone), and possibly in the long run help out the global economy. And hell, wouldn't everyone love REAL BABY BACK RIBS???

Like Swift, I'm joking somewhat and not suggesting anyone go out and hack up their neighbors with a machete, but whaddya all think? :P

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:44 pm: Edit

dude swift was totally joking...it was to make a point. that was the funniest thing ive read all year

By Taru (Taru) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Um YEAH, it is totally a satire, it was in relation to tyrannical British rule in Ireland. Swift was trying to show that, in his opinion, both the English and the Irish were responsible for the extreme poverty in Ireland.

By Lahlahlah (Lahlahlah) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

so we stop eating cows... we'll just end up eating polar bears or penguins eventually

*we'd have to start drinking goats milk as wel

By Taru (Taru) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:55 pm: Edit

People do drink goat's milk.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:40 pm: Edit

haha you don't think one of the most famous satires ever written was "completely facetious"...uhh, yes it was. he didn't care about overpopulation..he cared about the plight of the poor.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:41 pm: Edit

why all this vegan vs. nonvegan and veggie vs. meat eaters arguing anyway?? the only point of this thread was to share anticipation for vegan friendly cafeterias at our future colleges.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

I agree with the Modest Proposal.

By Lahlahlah (Lahlahlah) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:54 pm: Edit

same... swift was a genious

if we didn't eat cows we'd eat baby's some people just need to realize that as humans we are omnivores and need a balanced diet of meat along with vegetables and fruits

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:17 pm: Edit

yep. and cannabalism is probably one of the most practical solutions. Not only are we not eating cows, we are cutting down on the overpopulation problem in the world.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 12:53 am: Edit

And humans kill animals because they need to eat too.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

but it isnt essential for their survival. If they needed to eat meat then they wouldnt have been started eating meat only 10,000 years ago when the first hunting tools were developed.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 01:21 am: Edit

i can't believe some people are going off to college and still think that humans "need" meat..as if it's essential to survival. Why don't all vegetarians drop dead then?

In fact, most of the veggies I know, myself included are healthier than meat-eaters.

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 01:40 am: Edit

All you who say Swift was messin', I dunno guys, that's some pretty serious stuff there. Baby eating and all. Num nums if you ask me.

I choose to eat meat, I know I don't have to but it tastes good - in my opinion, better than a soy turkey on thanksgiving. Anyway, next year I think we'll try baby human. Good eats!

By Budnick (Budnick) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 02:59 am: Edit

I agree with Britbrat that this is all off topic but...

Jason, humans have always eaten meat. Maybe you're just thinking of the first hunting tools in America which are from about 12,000 years ago.

By Sostressedout (Sostressedout) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 09:27 am: Edit

Thanks britbrat for your explanation. This threads really enlightining I must say, but I doubt I'll become a vegetarian.

By Becks777 (Becks777) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 09:44 am: Edit

Lahlahlah, according to you we should start killing Chinese and indians too right coz their country is so overpopulated

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 02:47 pm: Edit

SO-does anyone want to talk about how excited they are that their future college caters to vegans/vegetarians? i am! my college labels everything and there is a really cool soy milk dispenser (i know i already said that about 60 posts ago....but i just thought i would try to swing us back on track)!

By Xenowang (Xenowang) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

I like meat.

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 06:02 pm: Edit

all of this criticism of veganism and vegetarianism is pretty stupid. i eat meat quite regularly, but i am far from closed minded. if people choose not to drink milk, then who the hell cares???? why do machismo carnavores think they are so much better? this is what i equate this argument to: "why do you believe in jesus?" seriously, ask yourself, why. you can't give a better example than that it's what you personally believe. now why would someone believe in veganism? IT'S A PERSONAL CHOICE! nobody is making you, and why do people have to "get all up in other peoples' grills about it." if they don't want to drink milk, who cares? most vegans on this board and the ones i know honestly don't care if others eat meat. it's a personal lifestyle choice. now please just accept that.

by the way, i do eat free range meat because i definitely think what corporate meat companies do is horribly wrong. but once again, please stay out of other peoples' lifestyles. gay, lesbian, vegetarian, carnivore, vegan, black, white, brown, green, purple, WHATEVER, just stay out of other peoples' business.

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit

"why do machismo carnavores think they are so much better?"

They have small •••••••. Err, because they're centered so much in what they think is right they can't possibly attempt to accept what other people may believe in. It's a sad truth, but so many people aren't "enlightened" enough to realize that what other people believe in might be just as good as their own beliefs. I go to an excellent school, and it amazes me that even at my school there are so many total goons that think they're right and everyone else is COMPLETELY wrong.

By Chimmortal (Chimmortal) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 08:45 pm: Edit

^keep in mind that the inverse is true as well Starchybean...

To the person who said vegans are healthier on the whole, I wouldn't disagree. However, that's only because Americans on the whole eat like pigs and are too lazy to exercise. I've never seen a male vegetarian that didn't look sickly skinny. I'm sure they exist, but I've never met met one. The healthiest looking men(IMO) eat a balanced diet of non-processed foods including meat.

To all of you who are against eating cows, have you ever thought about what would happen if everyone turned vegetarian? The cows wouldn't just be able to roam around freely and eat, they'd starve to death. Pretty soon there would only be cows in a zoo. How many wild cows have you seen? Yes, that's right, zero.

It's not like soy is produced with no animal suffering. Many more animals die to 100 soy burgers than the (estimated )100 hamburgers you could get from a cow. Tilling and harvesting cropland kills tons of rabbits, mice, birds, etc. I'm obviously ignoring the fact that cattle eat food as well, but still...it's something to think about.

PS: To anyone who says I'm full of ••••, you should know that I live on a farm, so you better back up your criticisms with facts. And no, articles from PETA don't count as facts, they count as propaganda.

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Right, Chimmortal, I know that the opposite's true as well.

I've never seen a female vegetarian that's not sickly skinny looking. It's just the sickly skinny look is considered sexually attractive when it's a woman who's the size of a 2x4.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Funny, all the female vegeterians I know are of above-average weight.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

Yes Chimmortal, i think your full of it. of course someone who lives on a farm is going to be all for eating meat...maybe you make a profit off of carnivorous habits?

also, the vegetarians i know are very healthy. my veggie friends and i also play a lot of sports, so we arent "skinny" or fat

By Eyesclozedtight (Eyesclozedtight) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:47 am: Edit

once again, WHO CARES?!?! i love how the argument against vegetarians is, "omg! if everyone was a vegetarian the whole world would spin into chaos!!!" newsflash: not everyone is a vegetarian, most people aren't, and my amazing forsight doesn't predict the world going vegetarian anytime soon. my point is stop bitching about what other people do! it doesn't matter!!!

By Jenniferelaine (Jenniferelaine) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Britbrat-

I would be careful of generalizations.
My family comes from a long line of farmers, on both sides. We raised grains (soybeans, corn and wheat) and pigs.
Our close family friends raise cattle.
I'm very petite.
I am a vegetarian, not a vegan.

I am a vegetarian for both health reasons and animal rights issues. But for my health, I realize that at this point in my life it would be an unwise decision for me to be a vegan. That is a decision based upon my personal life and dietary chocies, not on generalizations about vegans or vegetarians.

Now if you would like the story of why I stopped eating pork, I will tell you. And it's not about the atrocities of farming either.

And I will edit to add that my family hates my lifestyle choice. I was bererated by my grandmother until the day we were forced to sell the farm that I was robbing my father of money because I wouldn't eat the pork our farm was producing.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Chimmortal: It takes about 16 lbs of plants to produce 1 lb of meat. HYPOTHETICALLY, if everyone were to go vegetarian, we would only need about 1/10th of the current farmland... and therefore only be taking over 1/10th of the land for our human purposes.

Trophic levels - great stuff. Basically, every level you go up (plants get food from soil/sun, herbivores from plants, carnivores from herbivores) requires an order of magnitude more energy to produce food. So, it requires 10 times the energy for us to eat meat rather than eating plants.

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Jenniferelaine -- would the reason you stopped eating pork be because you saw what they were feeding the pigs? This is why my dad stopped, he grew up on a farm.

By Jenniferelaine (Jenniferelaine) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Actually no.

The reason I stopped eating pork: I was about 10 years old and my dad was unloading my pigs at the county 4-H fair. One of my gilts (girl pigs), missed the ramp between the trailer and the ground. She fell about 6 inches and there was a sickening *crack*, and she immediately started limping. I didn't show her, and the next week, we had porkchops for sunday dinner.

Very much a Simpsons moment, but true.

Starchy- As far as I could ever tell it all looked like ground corn. The food was highly processed and all looked the same, and there was a lot of ground corn and hamster pellets. Even though I know there is more than ground corn in there, that is what it looke like.

By Jared (Jared) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:26 am: Edit

are any vegans republicans/conservative? just wondering cuz being a vegan seems pretty damn liberal

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:01 am: Edit

im a vegan and a republican. weird, i know

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 09:43 am: Edit

I'm an omnivore and I'm a Green... really weird, eh? You probably thought we were all *freakish* vegans or something.

Yee, creepy story jenniferelaine :P Yeah, I suppose that would do it!

By Dillydils (Dillydils) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 11:09 am: Edit

Just a tidbit from the Bible...However everyone is free whether to believe in the Bible or not, this is coming from a believer in the Bible. If your religious preference is something else, please don't take offense. I'm only sharing what I know.

Genesis 1:29-30

29- "And God went on to say: Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food." 30- "And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everthing moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation as food. And it came to be so."

So notice here that God isn't telling humans that they are allowed to eat animals, He is giving them vegetation to eat. Animals as well are only allowed to eat vegetation. Being the first part of Genesis, we can easily conclude that our bodies were in fact programmed to consume only vegetation.

NOW, after the Flood, here is Genesis 9: 2-3

2- "And a fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every flying creature of the earth, and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that goes moving on the ground, and upon all the fishes of the sea. Into your hands they are now given." 3- "Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you."

So as we can see here, after the Flood, since everything is now changed, God tells people that they are allowed to eat animals. Notice how it states that humans will bring terror to them.

I'm not taking one side or the other. What I personally conclude from this is that our bodies are not programmed to consume meat, thus bringing all the arterial diseases and such, however it is not ethically wrong to consume them. I think a balanced diet is essential for the well-being of a human.

These are just my opinions, not trying to force them upon anyone else.

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:22 pm: Edit

yes, but the bible isn't really a good resource to support a point.

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Ahh, the Bible, best selling novel ever written. :D Seriously, anyone who backs up his arguments with the Bible needs to look for better sources. The Bible lacks any proof for any of its claims.

By Chimmortal (Chimmortal) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 04:17 pm: Edit

"we can easily conclude that our bodies were in fact programmed to consume only vegetation"

What are our canines for?

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Human canine teeth are small compared other carnivorous animals. They're better used for biting harder vegetables rather than flesh.

By Jadesark (Jadesark) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Many of you here are very ignorant, therefor must try and put down those who don't eat animals. I think many of you could benefit from doing a little basic research.


"I'm not a vegan; vegetarian though. I can't imagine not even eating/drinking dairy products. You know animals aren't killed to get that stuff so whats the problem, if the reason isn't religious? "
No, animals aren't killed for that, but they (chicken's especially) are very much harmed in the process. Cows in dairy farms need to be constantly producing milk, meaning that they must be pregnant an unnaturally amount of times. Basically they're "raped" (the actual device they use is called a "rape rack"), get pregnant, produce milk, have their children sent to slaughter houses, produce milk, and the same cycle continues until their bodies are warn out and sent to a slaughter house.

"Big, fat, juicy, cheeseburger, and a big ol' milkshake sounds nice, eh?"
No, saying such things doesn't really make me want to eat this, it just makes you look immature and idiotic.

"it's good for cows to be milked like that- they need to get it out of them that way. Don't argue with me because that is the truth. Had this debate many times before."
The reason they need to be milked is because they're forced to be pregnant all the time. That milk is for their babies.

"The food tastes nasty..and God made plenty animals for us to eat and get our nourishment."
How can you say all food not containing meat is nasty? So, basically, what you're saying is all you eat is meat. That's horribly unhealthy. Who says it's a fact that "God" exists, anyway. Who says "God" said we have to eat animals? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that "he" did. Do you think god would support slaughter houses? Are slaughterhouses natural at all? Constant torture is not something I'd think a god would endorse.

"If its healthy why not?? Especially when its no harm to anyone "
Ah, but there are those who do get harmed. Cows, for one. Also, milk is filled with antibiotics, fat, and cholesterol. Not healthy.

"You know if you don't milk a cow it'll die right? Why waste the milk? I can understand your guys' perspective on not eating meat, but why waste the milk and the eggs? "
Humans force these cows to be "filled with milk", so to say. If it weren't for us, they wouldn't have that need, so that argument doesn't really make sense. Chickens that are used for eggs are horribly battered. If they don't eat and become nervous for a long while, they produce more eggs. So, this is what's done with them. When they are worn out, like cows, they're sent for slaughter. And Chicks that are born as males are immediately thrown into a wood chipper, since they're not "productive" enough. Yes, baby chicks are killed, while fully conscious, like that. It's sick.

"are killed is ridiculous, I agree with you actually, I've read some horrifying stories. But I do believe at the same time that meat and milk are essential parts of our diets and that there are ways to slaughter the animals in a decent way;"
Who says meat and milk are essential? Why is it essential that we take the mik from other species which is intended for their children? That is highly illogical to me. And if they were both highly essential, how would you explain the large amount of healthy vegetarains/vegans?

"if you guys learned anything in biology about trophic levels youd know that eating other animals is necessary and is a part of life... "
Not at all. In environmental science ap we were just talking about how much mor eefficient it is to directly eat plants. Energy is lost through the different levels, so f it isn't essential for us to eat meat, it is much better to eat from a direct source of energy.

"ya, thats right, the more meat you eat the less cows there are. this helps reduce problems associated by the overpopulation and overgrazing of cattle and the depletion and contamination of the limited water supply. the more meat you eat the less cows there are to pollute the world "
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. We produce cattle. The more produced, the more profit. If left to their own resources, their population would obviously dwindle to a natural level (as opposed to the unnatural level they're at now). Factory farms produce a VERY large amount of pollution, especially in nearby streams. The less in existence, the less pollution.

"Other animals kill each other for food, why can't humans?! "
Do you see other animals producing their prey in large quantities the way we do? Do they make them abnormally and unhealthily large by feeding them antibiotics? If you want to use that argument, you might as well go out and hunt your own food like other animals. Do you have the teeth or claws to take down your prey? I think not.

"Vegetables have feelings too... "
Saying that shows that you're desperate for reasons to justify eating animals. It's scientifically proven that plants have no nervous system, therefore feel no pain and obviously have no emotions. And, again, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Animals in slaughterhouses consume 10 times the amount of plants we do that are produced ni the US. So again, eating animals would cause more pain.

"EAT MEAT, GET PROTEIN! "
I hope you're not so naive as to believe meat is the only source of protein.

"so we stop eating cows... we'll just end up eating polar bears or penguins eventually "
Please tell me where you got this information, that argument makes no sense. For your own good, I beg of you to do some actual research.

"if we didn't eat cows we'd eat baby's some people just need to realize that as humans we are omnivores and need a balanced diet of meat along with vegetables and fruits "
Again, you're obviously wrong. No human "needs" to eat animals. I haven't for years and look at me. If it's no necessary, why cause more pain? I'd think, as an ethical human being, we'd want to lessen the amount of pain and torture that we cause in the world.

"And humans kill animals because they need to eat too. "
That just plain ole' doesn't make sense. Yes, humans need to eat, but no, humans don't need to eat animals.

"In fact, most of the veggies I know, myself included are healthier than meat-eaters. "
That's exactly what I've noticed, too.

"I like meat. "
Thanks for your enlightening input.

"To all of you who are against eating cows, have you ever thought about what would happen if everyone turned vegetarian? The cows wouldn't just be able to roam around freely and eat, they'd starve to death. Pretty soon there would only be cows in a zoo. How many wild cows have you seen? Yes, that's right, zero."
First off, don't you think it'd be better to not exist at all rather than to have to go through the pain and suffering at a factory farm? Maybe you just don't know what goes on in there, I urge you to look for a video that would show you. Also, why would cows become extinct if we weren't harvesting them? People sometimes eat deer, yet they aren't produced in factory farms (except, of course, for "veal", disgusting) and have a population.

"It's not like soy is produced with no animal suffering. Many more animals die to 100 soy burgers than the (estimated )100 hamburgers you could get from a cow. Tilling and harvesting cropland kills tons of rabbits, mice, birds, etc. I'm obviously ignoring the fact that cattle eat food as well, but still...it's something to think about. "
You've responded to your own "concern". Animals eat more produce than humans do, therefore our stopping of eating animals would lower the amount of animal killings with regards to crops.

"PS: To anyone who says I'm full of ••••, you should know that I live on a farm, so you better back up your criticisms with facts. "
Well, you live on a family farm, which doesn't compare to monstrous factory farms.

"I've never seen a female vegetarian that's not sickly skinny looking. It's just the sickly skinny look is considered sexually attractive when it's a woman who's the size of a 2x4. "
Well, I'm going to guess that you don't know many vegetarians. Thanks for the stereotype, though.

"Chimmortal: It takes about 16 lbs of plants to produce 1 lb of meat. HYPOTHETICALLY, if everyone were to go vegetarian, we would only need about 1/10th of the current farmland... and therefore only be taking over 1/10th of the land for our human purposes. "
EXACTLY

"I'm an omnivore and I'm a Green... really weird, eh? You probably thought we were all *freakish* vegans or something."
Oh yes, those vegans are such "freaks", being compassionate and all. What the hell is wrong with them?

"yes, but the bible isn't really a good resource to support a point. "
oh, but it is when some ignorant, pompous person tells us that "god made animals to eat, omg your going to HELL!!!111"

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 07:41 pm: Edit

Uhh... just in defense for the last couple of quotes there, I used asteriks to represent sarcasm. I don't think there's anything wrong with vegans/vegetarians. Jadesark, you missed a lot of sarcasm in these posts. Turn your sarcasm detector on, buddy. Everyone knows vegetables don't have feelings, including the person who said it above. Who appointed you to judge and criticize everyone around here?

I especially love the last two quotes at the end there, the first quote (since you apparently don't understand sarcasm whatsoever) makes me seem like I hate vegans. Then when I agree with the person who said "but the bible isn't really a good resource to support a point" I'm defending them. Good job thinking out your argument.

To get back on topic, well, sort of. What's wrong with the way people eat whether they eat meat and vegetables or just vegetables? Also, almost all schools have vegetarian food courts/areas, right? Well, maybe not BYU or Washington and Lee... but I think that's a pretty common theme in college cafeterias nowadays.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three.

http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:26 am: Edit

Wait... according to your link, your •••• doesn't stink if you don't eat meat. Is this true? Does your •••• not stink if you don't eat meat?? I'm going vegetarian if it's true.

By Insntynonchalan (Insntynonchalan) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 09:34 am: Edit

IMO...meat isn't healthy in large amounts. I can't keep away from my meat though, I'm sorry. I respect all of those who choose to be vegetarian and vegan, and actually enjoy a lot of their dishes (Go Vegetarian Times!) but, I just like some meat every once in a while. Im just an unhealthy person!

By Becks777 (Becks777) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

NYCNEEDHELP I dont eat a hamburger everyday while all my friends do. So how about sponsoring me by eating 3 hamburgers everyday??

Also 90% of the americans eat meat and no wonder 80% are obese!

By Starchybean (Starchybean) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Yeah, what about that journalist who wen't to McDonald's for all his meals for, what, a month?

By Xenowang (Xenowang) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 04:34 pm: Edit

What the hell is going on now? Is everybody throwing logic out the window and claiming that meat makes you fat? Jesus H. Christ...

1st Point- The Maddox article isn't implying that your feces literally stink if you eat meat. He's using the "your s*** don't stink" phrase as a figure of speech.

2nd Point- You can't make a correlation between meat eaters and the obese. That's simply not logical. What if I said 70% of Americans' hormones start surging uncontrollably during the months of September and October, no wonder there's a spike in national births during June and July!

The meat from McDonalds doesn't make you fat- the processed garbage from McDonalds makes you fat. There's a difference. You know what makes you fat? Processed carbohydrates, unhealthy eating habits, and lack of willpowder. I guarantee you that I can eat many more calories in a day than a vegetarian will, including meat in my diet, and my rate of fat gain won't be any higher. In fact, I'd wager that it could possibly be quite the opposite.

By Jlaws30 (Jlaws30) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 10:53 pm: Edit

How many vegans are vegans because they think that it is cool to be different and to not conform to American culture? I'll tell you. Every single vegan who announces it on a message board. Would any of you vegans be vegans if you were the only vegan in the world. No way. Why is it necessary to tell everybody your eating habbits. And also, prove to me that eating meat is unhealthy.

By Becks777 (Becks777) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:32 pm: Edit

""Why is it necessary to tell everybody your eating habbits""

Coz its not easy being a vegan, its pretty challenging. I cant imagine myself being one and thats why i respect those who are and i appreciate their commiitment. Open your eyes and get out your little fairy tale world and start respecting what others do. Anyone who criticizes others of their eating habits is a totally insecure person.

Also why do you think its necessary for us to prove to you that meat is unhealthy?? You seem even more desperate than others

By Jajas2 (Jajas2) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

Wow, Becks, do you want a medal? How about a nice shiny gold star. Your a vegetarian... others are not. So why does one need to go on about this endlessly so? JLaws20 is quite right. If you decide to go vegan, good on ya mate. Its probably healthier for you. But dont try to prosthelytize that being a non-vegan is 'bad'. Yes, meat, in excess, isnt good for you. But meat in and of itself is not bad. Humans were designed to eat small amounts of meat, it would be just silly to deny atherwise (by the way, if the bible says we were designed to eat plants only, why does everyone in the bible, including adam, eat meat?)

By Jadesark (Jadesark) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 01:46 am: Edit

"How many vegans are vegans because they think that it is cool to be different and to not conform to American culture? I'll tell you. Every single vegan who announces it on a message board. Would any of you vegans be vegans if you were the only vegan in the world. No way. Why is it necessary to tell everybody your eating habbits."
How about those who don't give a crap about society and do what they feel is right for them? Another sweeping generalization. Good for you.

By Jlaws30 (Jlaws30) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

I don't have a problem with vegans in general and I am not criticizing their eating habbits. I was just trying to make a point about vegans who tell everybody that they are vegans because they think that it makes them better than other people who are not vegans. So if somebody doesn't give a crap about society and is just doing what they think is right without telling everybody how great they are, then I am not talking about them.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Well, i dont go around annoucing im a vegan, and i dont know anyone who does. people generally ask why u only drink soy milk or why you ask whats in the food. and if people ask u what being a vegan is, and i tell them, i dont feel like im preaching.

you people are forgetting what the original thread was for-to see who else is vegan. he wasnt trying to brag in any way, nor did he imply AT ALL that he thought he was better than anyone else.

By Flashbackfl (Flashbackfl) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Jadesark had an incredible response to so many foolish comments. The very thought of eating animal flesh makes me ill, but what makes me even sicker is the thought of factory farming and all of the suffering those creatures go through. They are sentient beings and deserve better. For me it's spiritual, and I just don't feel right knowing that a living being suffered just so I can eat a meal....
"A nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" - Ghandi
"GOT PUS?"

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Yeah once I accidently ate a bite out of a pepporoni pizza thinking it was cheese (the pepporoni was under the cheese), and I almost threw up. I can't imagine eating meat ever again.

By Jenniferelaine (Jenniferelaine) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

I was at a mock trial banquet, and even though I ordered the vegetarian meal, I was served a vegetarian meal with BACON in it. Luckily, I can taste bacon from a mile away and that portion was quickly discarded.

This is my reason for wanting to kick Kentucky out of the Union.

Tennessee earns the same honor for their superb restaurants placing bacon on EVERYTHING. Including caesar salads.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Becks I'll do you one better

Instead of eating 3 hamburgers every day, I'm gonna eat three steaks every day.

BTW I'm 6'0 and 145 lbs so I'm not obese.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit

This ridiculous argument could do for some good ol' postmodern subjectivism.

People, in general, like what they are used to eating. If I ate a 32 oz. steak every day, I would love steak. So would any of the vegans on here. If I drank soy milk instead of regular milk, I suppose I would grow to like it. Thus, it's a silly argument for either side to say: "I [don't/do] like X. Thus, I shall [never?] eat X [insert implication of moral depravity of the other side]."

I've seen a few too many of my vegan friends (who, admittedly, are probably not 'doing' it right) pass out from electrolyte loss and nutrient deficiencies to imagine that as the most healthy possibility. But I'll refuse to argue the morality of anything... I don't believe in objective morality to begin with, thus tales of suffering mean absolutely nothing to me.

Secondly, Americans aren't fat because they eat meat. There are many cultures where over 90% of caloric intake comes from meat, yet the population is not obese at all. Americans are obese due to pure overeating and lack of self control.

IMHO, Aristotle had it right to begin with. A moderation is the best path in a lot of things, nutrition being one of them. The occasional lean meat to supplement a largely vegetarian diet provides all the necessary nutriets while not creating cardiovascular problems.

By Ndcountrygirl (Ndcountrygirl) on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 12:41 am: Edit

I live on a ranch in North Dakota. People around here hate vegetarians because cows are our living and outnumber people. Anyway, what would all the ranchers be doing if no one ate meat?

I want to be a veterinarian and am a supporter of animals rights, but I have also seen cows killed, love meat, and know that one person being a vegetarian and preaching will not change the world.

It's the fault of humans, because over the centuries we have bred cows to be fat slow and stupid. They would never be able to live on their own today. But humans have interfered with every other living creature on this planet too, so its just the way the world is.

By Dwerbowy (Dwerbowy) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 09:06 am: Edit

people say vegetarians are hypocrits i find meat eaters hypocrits. They'll suck up a fat 'juicy' peice of flesh off of a force fed, anemic, abused cow and say delicious but when you ask them to eat dogs or cats they say its barbaric or disgusting. What's the difference? either way the anymials bleed when you kill them, they both die, they are both considered animals, right? So if it's disgusting to kill one kinds of animal for meat then what makes it alright to do that to another animal?

By Jason817 (Jason817) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 11:18 am: Edit

yeah most meat eaters are hypocrites

By Cadence (Cadence) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit

I have a real question about being vegan.

I'm thinking of actually trying to be vegan when I get to college (and I can escape the watchful eyes of my parents). What do you suggest I eat (I know that sounds like a stupid question, but I really mean it)... and how can I make sure that I'm not going to be hurting myself (not getting all the essential nutrients) by becoming vegan. Please leave me words of wisdom!

By Xenowang (Xenowang) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

It's a good thing I don't consider eating dogs and cats barbaric because I understand that that practice may belong to another culture.

Anyways- I'd imagnie that beans and soy would be your friend if you're looking for a protein source, Cadence. Not the most useful of proteins but it does the job alright.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 05:04 pm: Edit

pigs are smarter than dogs.

yep, a lot of meateaters are hypocrites.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

I don't give a crap. I'll eat dog. Or Cat. Only if it has enough protein though.

And the problem is...no one offered me dog or cat to eat yet...

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:02 am: Edit

To get dog, you usually have to pay visits to street carts run by people who don't speak english. They usually won't tell you it's dog either; only once did someone actually tell me that he was selling dog chili. It wasn't bad, either.

The generalizations on this thread are just... wow. I thought "free-thinking" anti-meats had something against using a broad brush against large groups of people.

Oh, wait... I was being idealistic again. Forgive me.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit

umm cadence...when i first started, i just went to the store and bought a bunch of vegan stuff, like basic foods until i could research more (my becoming vegan was like over night where i "woke up") i enjoy the vegetarian chili (make sure it doesnt have any dairy) and i eat a lot of dry cereal and rice and beans. my parents think im a bad vegan because i dont eat like anything.....(i dont really like vegetables....)

By Jenniferelaine (Jenniferelaine) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

Hey, eat what you're going to eat. I only have a problem if you're going to mistreat your food while it's alive. I too am idealist in that I feel that if you are going to take the life of a living creature, you ought to at least be respectful of what you are taking.

And to Cadence-

If you are not a vegetarian already, I would first start eliminating meat and animal products from your diet gradually and supplementing them with the new foods. Start with red meat/pork, then chicken, fish and so on. Your body will go through an adjustment period where it is learning to live with soy burgers instead of Big Macs, and in the beginning it can be hell on your digestive tract.

If I were you, I would give myself at LEAST two weeks per "group" of red meat, poultry, fish, dairy, etc, where you are gradually supplementing in the foods which would replace them. This way, you are providing yourself with an ample time frame to research nutrition options and try out various foods. It will also safegaurd against sudden nutrient imbalances, which can happen if you cut out all animal products at once.

And please use common sense. My sister has decided to become a vegetarian after refusing to disect a fetal pig in Biology. The only vegatables she will eat are potatoes and green beans.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:37 am: Edit

Cadence: JE's advice is good. Start by going vegetarian. I dropped meat slowly - started off by not eating swordfish (long story!), then dropped red meat, then pork, then chicken, then fish. Took about a summer - mentally, it is tough to not eat meat. You will crave it, and you will find it hard to be satiated without it. Digestive tract was fine.

Try the Vegetarian Time's book, "Vegetarian's Beginner's Guide." I used it and found it to be very helpful. It explains what you need in terms of vitamins (for example, you'll need to get B12, which is found naturally in animal products only), minerals, protein, etc. Excellent resource.

Avoid relying too heavily on carbohydrates or dairy products when going vegetarian, which is a common mistake.

Learn to cook tofu. Drop me an email and I can send you tips. Find Morningstar or Boca burgers and try a few of those. (The GardenBurgers are tastier, but have less protein.) Find a good multi-vitamin (try Women's one a day) which will give you all of the B12, iron, and calcium that you need.

My favourite protein sources (I'm veggie, not vegan): tofu, veggie burgers, hummus, yogurt, and some beans. I don't like the taste of peanut butter... also, nuts tend to have a lot of fat. Multi-grain bread is healthier, less processed, and has more protein than white.

Focus on protein sources, vegetables, and complex carbohydrates for your meals. Pasta all the time will not be good for you.

Blood type apparently matters. O types have a tougher time with being vegetarian. If you feel terrible, then stop! I do think that being vegetarian works beautifully for some people and terribly for others. Ditto for vegan. Vegan is a lot of work; I know someone who started eating milk, cheese, etc after years because she didn't have the time to be vegan properly.

By Jenniferelaine (Jenniferelaine) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 01:05 am: Edit

I am ovo-lacto veggie, though I do not utilize any animal products in my wardrobe or otherwise.

Yes, too much dairy (and eggs) too quickly will shoot your cholesterol through the roof.

After a while of being veggie, if you taste meat, it will taste forgein. I have accidently gotten a piece of pork fat or bacon on my plate and tasted it, and it honestly tasted disgusting. It's just from not having the food for such a long time, it would happen with any food.

Instead of taking a supplement, you can also try eating Total. That cereal still has me amazed with all the nutrients it has in it, and you don't have to eat a lot of it to get the nutrients.

I am a huge fan of foods in their unadulteraded forms. I will eat fresh fruits and veggies until the cows come home, and top them off with a bunch of sunflower seeds (good for protein).

I have seen this advertised on the PETA website, but apparently if you cook your food in a cast-iron skillet (not a non-stick skillet), the food will absorb trace amounts of iron.

My favorite proteins: Bocca, hummus, beans, eggs.
I haven't learned to cook tofu yet, but I'm working on it. Luckily, I'm a big fan of Boca in most forms.

By Vdevluk (Vdevluk) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 05:09 am: Edit

"Blood type apparently matters. O types have a tougher time with being vegetarian"

whoa? you're serious? im O, what are the problems/ symptoms?

"I don't believe in objective morality to begin with, thus tales of suffering mean absolutely nothing to me."

hey!! an intellectual! i wonder how you'll react when someday maybe youre a victim of undue suffering. (not that i'm wishing for anything like that)

By Madjoy (Madjoy) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 05:21 am: Edit

Blood-type-diet:
http://www.veg-soc.org/html/articles/blood-type-nutrition.html

Anti-blood-type-diet:
http://www.earthsave.org/news/bloodtyp.htm

By Belial (Belial) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:04 pm: Edit

some thoughts.

To be a vegetarian, for moral reasons, I have to 1) convince my self that all the animals that are obviously not as smart or sentimental as me are my equals and 2) be a damned rich bastard. In short, vegetarians are rich hypocrits.

I like tofu. I like soy milk. I'm not a vegetarian. I'll eat them when I can afford to eat them often. I can either spend 2$ for a small box of watery tofu, or I can spend 2$ on a much larger pack of meat. My family is poor, earning only about 15k$ per year. I HAVE BETTER THINGS FOR MONIES THAN SPENDING 15$ FOR A SINGLE VEGE DISH.

Open your mouth. Take a look at your teeth. See those pointy calciums? Those are the same teeth in a tiger's mouth. Those teeth are designed for tearing of meat. *gasp* humans are designed to eat meat! I'm quite sure thousands of years of evolution is a more concret evidence of what's good for us than the new pop-sensation-science of the decade.

What we think is good for us are completely stupid. Utterly foolish. For example, the new fad when comes to parenting is leave the baby alone in its own room as soon as it's born, and don't feed it milk when it cries at night. We North American people acutally feed into this bullcrap. Thousands of years of evolution taught the babies to cry, yet 10 years of "science" research tells us baby cry uselessly. Similarily, thousands of years of evolution gave human the ability to eat meat, and 10 years of North American science tells us meat is bad. yeah, right.

By Jenniferelaine (Jenniferelaine) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 01:58 pm: Edit

It's not the meat itself that is necessarily bad for you. It is the growth hormones and anti-biotics used in the production of the meat which is bad for you, and your future children, in the long run.

By Cadence (Cadence) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Thank you everyone! I think I'm going to try to cut out meat this summer (when I'm away from my parents). I already don't eat much fish, so that shouldn't be a problem. Cheese will be hard to cut out, but it's so bad for you anyway. It's probably worth it.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Vegetarians outlive meat eaters by about 7 years, on the average. A vegetarian diet also costs, on the average, about $2,000 LESS than a meat-based diet, annually. At restaurants, vegetarian food is usually about $3 less per entree than meat based dishes.

...but of course you know everything, Belial. Hell, you haven't even met me and you're calling me a "rich hypocrite." Odd, considering that I've purchased all of my own vegetarian food with the money I've earned. No need to bash other people whom you have never met.

By Madjoy (Madjoy) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Belial, I'm utterly fascinated by consciousness. What separates a conscious being from an unconscious being? When is it "alright" to kill?

Honestly, I don't have enough information to tell you that. From what I've studed thus far, as far as I can tell, the more developed the nervous system, the more conscious an animal seems to be.

This leads me to an odd mix of views - pro-life, because the nervous system of a fetus more than a few weeks old is developed enough so that I would consider it wrong to kill it, anti-death-penalty, because murdering a human with developed consciousness against his will is wrong, and vegetarian, because I find it seems wrong to kill and eat these developed animals. In fact, where do I draw the line? I have to draw it SOMEWHERE. Therefore, I draw the line at eating animals - despite the rather simple nervous system of a sponge, I would not eat one, because this is where I have chosen to draw my line.

Are these absolute morals? No, these are the standards I set for myself. Does this mean everyone has to live this way? No, but please respect my decision to... and maybe consider where I'm coming from

Veganism, on the other hand, is a different issue entirely, even though the two are often lumped together. When I get to college, I hope to go vegan besides vegetarian, because there are so many options there. In this case, veganism is rejecting the way in which meat is "factory farmed," the horrible living conditions that these animals endure. By not buying milk, you are not supporting an industry that would directly kill a cow once it has reached an age beyond its prime milk-producing years, earlier than it should naturally die. Some reformed vegans even buy organic kosher free-range meat and such, because they are raised on farms in good conditions, and see no problem with eating meat in general...

Whatever someone's belief, I think it's great that college campuses offer an opportunity for vegans to actually maintain a vegan lifestyle, vegetarians to maintain a vegetarian lifestyle, and hey, blood-hungry carnivores to maintain a blood-hungry carnivorous lifestyle. :P

By Chimmortal (Chimmortal) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

"Vegetarians outlive meat eaters by about 7 years, on the average."

Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.....

Do you know of any studies comparing a vegetarian diet versus a balanced diet of primarily non-processed food? It's really not fair to lump the fatasses who eat McDonalds every day with more health conscious meat eaters.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 12:12 am: Edit

...though not fair, it was done. Vegans outlive meat-eaters by approximately 15 years.

Heart attacks are the primary killer of Americans, both male and female (the latter obviously being protected somewhat through menopause). The vegetarian diet eliminates a lot of the antibiotics and hormones found in meat (which are given to cows and passed through to us). The higher fiber content helps prevent many types of digestive tract cancers, while the antioxidants in vegetables and fruit prevent other cancers. There is a study which indicates that women can eliminate menstrual cramps and severe bleeding by changing to a vegan diet. The women in the study were so happy with what happened that they voluntarily chose to remain vegan afterwards.

Clearly, one could obtain that by still eating meat (esp. the kosher variety described above). That does not change the fact that people unnecessarily attack vegetarians, assuming that they have motives which are inane. Health and the environment (see discussion of trophic levels) are certainly adequate reasons to change one's diet. The vegetarian diet does have its advantages. I brought up that statistic to refute Belial's rantings. It is entirely functional for that purpose; no need to correct for healthy meat-eaters, etc.

By Songman (Songman) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit

My daughter has decided to become a vegetarian. I am worried as now she is eating very little. She needs to educate herself on a proper diet no? I would like to be become a vegetarian also,have thought about it for years. Any suggestions for websites that would be helpful or books?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Songman: the Vegetarian Time's book, "Vegetarian's Beginner's Guide," is great. I had a copy that I've lent to several people who all say that it is very helpful.

I know this is advice that you did not ask for, but I'll give it anyway. Some young women use vegetarianism as a cover for an eating disorder. Health-minded vegetarians replace the meat with other food; people using it as a mask for a problem just don't eat much, period. If your daughter just isn't getting a huge variety of foods, that's a problem with acclimating to vegetarianism; if she's eating significantly less, then there is another problem there.

I don't want to be mean or offensive, but I have heard of people, esp. teenage women, doing that. (In fact, one of my father's friend's daughters simply stopped eating meat as a precursor to not eating at all.)

To all others reading this: please, do not go out of your way to be offended.

By Songman (Songman) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Ariesathena- Thank you......I have been concerned about eating disorder and will approach it the Andy Griffith way- which is? I will become vegetarian with her then we will get the book you suggested and make different recipes. If she eats very little or skirts the issue then maybe I have my answer. On a positive note she may increase her intake of food. I don't think she has a disorder as she is eating more junk food than wholesome food. Good point though!

By Aim78 (Aim78) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 08:33 pm: Edit

Vegetarian right here, for 7 or 8 years. I think it's pretty horrible how animals are treated, but that has little to do with it. I just decided not to eat meat because I never really liked it in the first place.

You don't need a book to become vegetarian, just stop eating meat! I couldn't imagine being vegan because that's borderline unhealthy - milk is my favorite drink, and it does the body good! Milk, yogurt, cheese, eggs, etc are where I get my protein. Yogurt has something called Kosher Gelatin that comes from animals, and I was concerned about that for a while, but now I couldn't care less. What's done is done. Dishes can still taste great and not have meat. And there are foods that can replace the meat if you like that texture. But don't become vegetarian just because you want to save the animals, the same amount of meat is still going to be processed unless there is a BIG shortage of demand, which won't happen soon.

Just read some of the above posts about milk being unhealthy. Please check your facts before posting B.S. like that, milk is fantastic for the body. High cholesterol and fat?? Yeah, if you drink whole milk. I stick with 1% milk and if you've ever read the label, it's low in fat and high in nutrients.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Songman: You are welcome. If you have the time and energy for culinary delights, I will suggest "The New Vegetarian (Bold and Beautiful Recipes for every occasion)" which is sold in Williams-Sonoma, among other places. Absolutely scrumptous, with a nice intro section on making basics. Moosewood is a classic veggie cookbook. Also, as someone on the kid/adult border - thank you for being diplomatic in your approach to your daughter's eating habits.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 04:53 am: Edit

>>>>I don't give a crap. I'll eat dog. Or Cat. Only if it has enough protein though.

If you don't give a crap, then obviously I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about people who rationalizing eating certain animals while not eating others (such as dogs) with the basis that dogs have personality, they're smart, they're our friends etc.

>>>The generalizations on this thread are just... wow. I thought "free-thinking" anti-meats had something against using a broad brush against large groups of people. Oh, wait... I was being idealistic again. Forgive me.

You're the one making generalizations. Who said you have to be free-thinking to be anti-meat? You don't have to be liberal or openminded or ANYTHING to not want to eat animal carcass. Not everyone who objects to eating burnt flesh has an agenda. It's just portrayed that way by the obese American public.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 04:58 am: Edit

>>>>2) be a damned rich bastard. In short, vegetarians are rich hypocrits.

America is an overweight country and this is what people believe and it's not true. Certain vegetarian foods are expensive, but eating vegetables, fruits, rice, potatoes, etc is never going to make you broke. Today for lunch I had an egg salad sandwich and a huge bowl of strawberries, cherries, grapes, apple for lunch with heaps of whipped cream and it was less than the burgers and fries my friend has.

By Tylerewell (Tylerewell) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit

look into how long the average vegetarian lives compared to the average meat-eating, exercising person. there's no substitution for exercise or for the proteins you get from meats. eat that expensive and nasty food if you want, but please don't believe it's better for you.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

hmm, i never knew vegetables, rice, pasta and so one classified as "Expensive and nasty"

By Madjoy (Madjoy) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

You definitely have to be careful to get the protein and nutrition you need as a vegetarian you need, but if you plan it well and watch what you eat, you can do so with way less cholesterol, fat, and other nasty stuff that naimal products give you. =)