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My daughter attended a state school and we only had to do the FAFSA. That was bad enough, but now my son (a junior in HS) is looking at some private schools that may use the Profile, too. I'm really not looking forward to a double dose of financial forms. How bad is the Profile, and what major things does it make you report that aren't on the FAFSA in some form?

By Dave Berry on Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 10:11 am: Edit

I'm with you, Dad. I did eight years' worth of these guys (plus a third form, a school-specific finaid application, each year). It was just like doing my 1040 tax forms twice every February. At least you dodged one set of Profiles through your daughter's state school.

The Profile isn't all that bad and a lot of the information is a carryover from the FAFSA. Rather than get into a detailed comparison, though, I'll give you the link that will take you directly to the Profile worksheet and you can compare for yourself. You'll need Adobe Acrobat to read it, though. I'll be thinking of you at tax time. Good luck!

Here's the link:

http://profileonline.cbreston.org/Supplemental_Forms/application.pdf

By David Hawsey on Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 10:34 am: Edit

Dear MIDAD: Since I serve a Michigan private college that does not use the PROFILE, but know others here who do, I can tell you the "inside" reason any college really uses this form. It is the easiest and most accurate way to assess a family's financial situation long before the January release of the FAFSA. Therefore, it is the only standardized tool out there to use for early decision and some early action candidates.

Lots of us use early estimation tools, mostly in-house formulas that help colleges understand what your expected family contribution (EFC) should be. But these rely on the information you provide us, and unfortunately, many families and students understate ther net worth, and overstate their grades and we all end up in confusion.

To alleviate this, the PROFILE is a very accurate way to get family financial information long before the FAFSA, and therefore package early decision students up with the appropriate scholarships, need-based grants and loans they should be getting.

The FAFSA is almost always required after a PROFILE is filed, because it "cleans up" the data and verifies all the information after the new year. It is tedious, and seemingly duplicative, but the following years are a lot easier. The FAFSA has a one-page "renewal" form. If you did not hit the lottery, get a $1 million estate check from Grandma's will, or were not laid off from your $300,000 per year job, you can simply fill it out, sign it and keep things fairly simple.

By MIDad on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Thanks, guys. Another special form for the college, too... I hadn't anticipated that. I'm looking forward to a triple dose of financial aid forms as much as a trip to a big-fingered proctologist. Maybe I can convince my son to enlist in the Marines or something. Great site, great info!

By anon on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 12:54 pm: Edit

I am trying to fill PROFILE for my son who will be a freshman in college next year. My sense is that our EFC as calcualted based on PROFILE will be higher than the Cost of Attendance at all the colleges he is applying to. In other words, filling PROFILE may be a wasted exercise. The only reason I am filing is based on the possibility that somehow I am miscalculating things and the application may turn out to be worthwhile.

I have never liked filing financial forms. As a dedicated father I have been patiently trying to do all I can to help my kid. However, I am about to toss the whole thing as far as I can, really - PROFILE takes the cake, in my opinion, in intrusiveness. (I am talking about questions 55 a-k in the 2002-2003 form, for instance. The topic is untaxed income.)

What should I do? Just forget filing PROFILE? I would like some indication from colleges, whether my effort is a wasted one or not. I understand that they need information before they can say anything. However, they should be able to say things based on major pieces of information and not every last little bit.

By Roger (Roger) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Hi, anon. Maybe one of the experts here can give a more thorough reply, but the general advice is to complete the forms the school requires and apply for aid even if it looks like you won't qualify. Sometimes the aid application is used as a qualifier for merit scholarships or other awards. Plus, since you are most likely dealing with a private school, they may choose to follow their own award guidelines rather than the FAFSA EFC, for example.

Having been through the FAFSA, Profile, school forms, etc., multiple times, I understand what you mean about intrusiveness. If you want to apply for financial aid, you pretty much have to assume that you are going to expose every detail of your family's financial life, including your business financial details if you happen to own part or all of a business.

By anon on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Roger,

Thanks for the supportive reply. (By the way, do you used to post in soc.college.admissions?)

I am dealing with several private schools - one of them has even more intrusive questions such as amount in 401K plans etc. My sense is that almost always the PROFILE based EFC will be higher than FAFSA based EFC. It is possible that the private college may ignore the higher EFC (i.e., they are not bound to use it) - in which case, I wonder why they collect all that information? I also wonder the wisdom of coupling merit scholarships with PROFILE application, but this may well happen.

As you point out, I am following "the general advice to complete the forms the school requires and apply for aid even if it looks like you won't qualify".

By California Mom (Calmom) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Hi Anon,
I have been through the whole financial aid process and I, too, assumed that the information on the PROFILE would change the picture. But the reality for me is that most schools that used the PROFILE set an EFC only slightly higher (about +$1000 to $2000) than the EFC being used by the FAFSA schools. Obviously $2000 is a chunk of money, but I said "slightly" because that's not much money in the context of a college that is costing $35,000 a year.

There was one private college that offered us a "full need based package" that was significantly less than the others, so my assumption is that the PROFILE gathers information that colleges may or may not use. Bottom line, you can't assume that you won't get the aid.

Also, some merit aid is tied to financial need. In my son's case, he has a National Merit scholarship of $2000 per year. I know that if there is no need, these scholarships are generally only $500. However, even though this is tied to need, when my son received this it did not reduce his need-based award from his college in any way.

Also, keep in mind that the FAFSA EFC is what is used to calculate eligibility for federal loans, so if you are hoping to get a student loan, it will be necessary to file the form.

About the only time when it is advisable not to file for financial aid is when the student is applying to a school that is a "reach", or for which the student is a marginal candidate; and that college is "need-sensitive" (i.e., will take need into consideration during the admissions process; and you will actually be able to finance the costs on your own.

Good luck!

By anon on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Thanks Calmom.

Supposedly, the PROFILE form is customized per college. That being the case, I don't understand why a college would collect information and not use it.

I will be delighted if the EFC went up only by a couple of thousand dollars. They can gladly add that to the FAFSA EFC without putting me through this proctological exam - besides, I will press the dean of admissions pants for a whole week ;-)
The free rides from the state universities look oh so tempting.

Clearly my lowest point in the application process.

By California Mom (Calmom) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 09:59 pm: Edit

There is one PROFILE form, used for every college that subscribes to the CSS/Profile service. That's at least the case when you are filling out the form online. At least that was my experience last year -- I haven't started working on the form for this year, so I don't know if they've made changes.

I also found that many FAFSA schools with the lower EFC tended to weight the financial aid award more toward loans, so that $2000 difference was really illusory. I don't look at a loan as a "gift" - it is a debt, hence an obligation. While it is certainly a tremendous help to a family which doesn't have other resources to draw on, the bottom line is going to be how much money the student gets in grants or scholarships.

I have another piece of bad news, if your kid is applying to many colleges. In February, you will start getting calls from various colleges wanting more information. They will vary - some colleges accept what you have provided at face value, others look for extra documentation. One college ran us through the mill, and then didn't offer any grant aid anyway. In hindsight, I can see that they were just trying to hunt for reasons not to provide aid.

I just am relieved that I only have to worry about one college this year. Last year, not only did I have to worry about the PROFILE, but we had to keep resubmitting FAFSA's because they only have room for 6 colleges on the form.

By Roger (Roger) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Anon, as California Mom states, the CSS Profile is a standard form. The customization comes from optional questions that individual schools can add to the Profile. These are sometimes quirky things to do with what the college perceives are loopholes in the standard forms, or perhaps issues that the particular college feels are important in evaluating financial aid eligibility. One such question, I recall, had to do with automobiles owned by the family; I don't recall which school asked this. Some schools put these oddball questions on their own forms rather than customizing the profile.

By anon on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 03:52 am: Edit

Calmom,

I am filling PROFILE online too. The reason you have to first register for PROFILE and then apply is that, supposedly, they adapt the form based on the colleges you select. As Roger points out, it appears to be a 'weak customization'. There is a main form and then based on the colleges, there are some additional questions - Section Q in our case.

Colleges want more info and extra documentation later, did you say? Wonderful ;-)

I wish that colleges would not pretend that loans and work study are also financial aid - seems to be another case of doubletalk by the colleges, to be blunt about it. (I am sure that at least some parents suspend disbelief, when dealing with lofty institutions such as colleges.) The only saving grace about PROFILE colleges seem to be that once the proctological exam is over, what you get is more likely to be grants. I hope that I get some of this too.

Roger, at least I haven't run into the colleges that ask for information on our automobiles. Nor any, (so far), which asks what kind of toilet paper the family uses/will use in 2000, 2001, and 2002, so that they can accurately assess whether we can downsize our standard of living to be able to afford college ;-)

Seriously, I would like to see PROFILE streamlined completely. Specifically,

(1) Don't require PROFILE if the family is only interested in merit scholarships

(2) Have a multistep process. Just ask for simple information first. Based on the results, send additional forms. For instance, based on parents' adjusted gross income, number of dependants, the number in college, and students' assets, it should be possible for the college to decide whether it is going to give any need based grant or not. Thus the family can be spared asking questions like, how much pretax money has been spent in paying for 401K etc.

(3) I also wish that they allow families to use ranges instead of specific numbers, for instance in investments.

(4) One of the ways to judge a college is by how much unnecessary junk they put you through. Unfortunately, in the case of PROFILE, I face the annoyances - my kid is largely unaware of what I go through.

By anon on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 05:06 am: Edit

Let me follow up some more. Clearly the situation is not a simple one. However, it is not rocket science either. Family situations fall into several (say a dozen) broad categories. Colleges provide tables saying how many students in each financial range applied, how many got aid, how much grants, etc. To consider an example, let's take one of the higher income ranges. Colleges show what fraction of applicants received aid. They also realize that the average data can be misleading for this category and have asterisked explanations saying that whether a family gets aid or not depends on the number of dependants and the number in college. In other words, for this category, these are the two make-or-break parameters (if I understand right) and a college can just collect enough information to see whether it makes sense to even collect additional data (such as amount of pretax payment to 401K). For other categories, they can similarly optimize the process. Further, I will be wiling to pay a higher application fee (within reason) to have a college work with me on this.

My point: colleges already realize that their tables can be misleading and provide the asterisked explanations. Why don't they take the next step and make it easy on the consumer?

By anon on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 08:19 am: Edit

Just one more point. CSS/PROFILE folks mission is to help colleges collect this additional information from parents. In other words, this is their raison d'etre. They can refine their processes to help parents. A part of the problem is that they don't have competition.

College Confidential: Perhaps you can start an alternate service that serves BOTH parents and colleges better, in the area of financial information for institutional methodology purposes.

By Roger (Roger) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 10:12 am: Edit

Interesting thought, anon. After we solve the financial reporting problem, we can develop the CCT to replace the SAT and ACT...

I agree that the process is a monumental pain in the neck. Most of the pain (for me, anyway) is pulling together the numbers in all the diverse areas they need. And, realistically, to develop an accurate picture of your ability to pay, they need a lot of data. The "range" idea is interesting, but I suspect they want to have you affirm specific numbers to avoid fudging.

One thing that I'm sure is true - the effort needed to complete all the forms goes up geometrically with the complexity of your own financial situation. A family with one or two working parents, a savings and checking account, and not much else, could probably breeze through the paperwork in less than an hour. Someone with ownership positions in multiple small businesses, various retirement plans, a raft of securities, etc., is going to spend a lot more time and effort.

Maybe this process, like the U of Chicago admissions application, serves as a pre-qualifier. Some families who are borderline will just get disgusted and say, "Awww, the heck with it! We're probably not going to qualify anyway."

By anon on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 10:36 am: Edit

Roger:

Affirming a range does not mean there is fudging. If anything, I can say more confidently that a certain number falls within 15000 and 20000 than that it is 17147. When it comes to things like investments, specific numbers are meaningless anyway, since the values will change based on the market. I can say more confidently that the total investments fall within 150,000 to 200,000 say than 167,345.

More importantly, if a family is not going to get any institutional money based on adjusted gross income, number of dependants and number of children in college, why bother with the rest of the stuff?

I am interested in improving the process for the people coming after me.

I don't think that the process is intentionally complicated. I hope not anyway.

By California Mom (Calmom) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Hi anon,
You wrote:
Section Q in our case.

Colleges want more info and extra documentation later, did you say? Wonderful ;-)

I don't know if they had the customization option last year, but I didn't get a section Q with the colleges we selected. It may be that if they are getting their answers from section Q that they don't need to ask for more.

The main issue as far as more documentation that I had to deal with was being self-employed. Some colleges wanted a statement of business assets and valuation. The problem is that I don't own a business; I am self-employed in the context of being a freelancer or consultant, and other than some basic supplies, there are no business assets. I work from home, and I have no employees. Some financial aid offices had a hard time understanding this - they were looking for *assets* that simply didn't exist.

You also wrote:
I also wish that they allow families to use ranges instead of specific numbers, for instance in investments.

Good idea!! It is really a pain to sit there trying to find current statements. Especially for a preliminary statement, there's no need to have so much detail.

And you wrote:
if a family is not going to get any institutional money based on adjusted gross income, number of dependants and number of
children in college, why bother with the rest of the stuff?

You're right. All colleges require the FAFSA, and some of the information can be plugged in from the FAFSA. So some time in February, after the basic forms were in, the colleges could send out letters to the families with supplemental forms. Everyone would have the option of completing the supplemental forms, but the letter would tell the family whether or not they appear to qualify for aid, and if so, the approximate type/level of aid they might qualify for. So, for example, if it looks like the family would qualify for loans only, the family might elect not to bother with the forms.

Another suggestion for this website: how about a ballpark financial aid calculator? That is, instead of the detailed calculators that are on some other sites, how about one where the parents can choose from drop down lists for range of incomes, family situation, value of home and investments, etc., and get a report of what they \i(probably) would qualify for (also in ranges) without needing to fill out a long detailed form.

By Roger (Roger) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Another interesting suggestion, CM. We have been planning on adding an EFC calculator, but the thought of having a very abbreviated one available might make a lot of sense.

We'll add that to the "to do" list! Thanks!

By anon on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Calmom,

I have to send PROFILE to four colleges, only one of which requires Section Q.

By anon on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 07:50 pm: Edit

I posted something on this thread about an hour ago. Did it get moved somewhere or did I somehow lose it?

By Roger (Roger) on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Anon, as far as I know no moderator moved it. It's possible that you clicked on the "preview" button, but then didn't click on the "post" button below the preview. I do it myself every now and then and wonder where my post went!

By anon on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Roger, I bet that's what happened. [On other sites, I have complained about the lack of a preview option ;-)]

Anyway, I finally finished the CSS/PROFILE and am a free man.

I remembered yesterday that the following site has a good EFC calculator:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/

By Roger (Roger) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 10:42 am: Edit

I know that sense of relief, anon, it's right up there with mailing off your federal and state tax returns! It's too bad that completing the financial aid forms is about as much fun as preparing those tax returns!

By Dadster on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 07:03 pm: Edit

By the way, Anon, don't forget that you'll have to submit your FAFSA after the January 1 starting deadline, and complete your taxes early so that you can refresh all of your numbers for the lucky school that gets your kid!

By anon on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Dadster,

Thanks for your kind sentiments.

I just found out that I have to get a PIN for completing FAFSA online, from

www.pin.ed.gov

anon

By Glenn (Glenn) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 01:50 pm: Edit

I have an equity line of credit on my house and a lot of equity. If I take that equity # out of the formulas the amount of Aid a private scool EFC will give you jumps dramaticaly. Do I have to use my equity line right away and take all the money out. Is there any way the colleges will know if you dont do it?

By marmadmax on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Does anyone have experience is answering question 27(g) on the Profile - amount parents think they will be able to contribute to student's expenses? Seems like a loaded question!!!

Thanks.

By rdm10 on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:15 pm: Edit

CSS PROFILE's FAQ's pages have been down for two weeks now, so I am at a loss on a simple question relating to #39 - "Parents Investments". Are 401K account funds to be included as an investment or not? FAFSA indicates "do not include retirement accounts" but I have found no clarification for the PROFILE. Anyone know?

By NYacct on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 12:48 pm: Edit

No - do not include 401(k) balances in this amount.

Both colleges to which we submitted Profile had supplemental questions which asked for 401(k) and other retirement assets. I assume some schools don't ask for it.

By Kimberly I on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

It seems like all of you are parents filling out these tedious financial aid forms for your kids. I will be a freshman in college next year and I filled out all these forms myself. My suggestion is that you get your children to fill these forms out themselves, or at least help you. After all, they are the ones going to college. They need to start taking responsibility.

By my lips are sealed on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Take heart folks:

FAFSA and CSS are challenging enough to this Dad (even with his BS in Accounting) but they are NOTHING when compared to the totally illogical, vague, poorly worded excuse for a school-specific financial aid form---that I have to face for yet another two years! And NO---it's not from a hard-pressed 4th tier school. It comes from the stuffy bureaucracy of a top ranked prestigious college where you would think there might be some spare brainpower that would filter into the financial aid office.

End of rant.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 07:24 pm: Edit

my lips are sealed, funny, but what you say reminds
me of student comments about Georgetown.