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hi ppls
i'm soo happy that I got into haverford. however, my parents aren't willing to contribute to an out of state pvt school. I live in cali, and since i got into UCI and UCSB, they are pushing them in my throat. i'm willing to fight them on this (this is my 4 yrs of happiness). since i'm on spring break and my counselor on vacation, i need to find info--quick--on loans that don't require a cosigner. haverford hasn't sent my fin aid package yet so im still waiting for that. My EFC is 24K (ouch) so i dunno how to procede with this. i dont wanna give up haverford!! thanks..any help will be great

By Dadster on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Talk to the financial aid office at Haverford ASAP, albee. See what your offer will be, and see if they are willing to review your situation.

Albee, you will be looking at $100K in loans if your parents don't contribute. Four years of happiness could lead to many, many years of misery paying off loans of that magnitude. If your parents don't come around, I'd consider attending one of the fine UC schools. You are fortunate to have such an excellent state university system.

The other avenue is to try to work out a deal with your parents. Would they fund a one year trial & see if you meet some agreed on GPA level? You might find Haverford isn't what you expected. Or, they might be pleased with the results. Maybe they'd split the difference if you took out partial loans... Just keep in mind that loans aren't free - they can be very burdensome to a new grad.

By albee (Joshbell) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:43 pm: Edit

thanks dadster. anyone is this situation who can give me some advice?

By Mark Y on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Albee-three words of advice: GO TO UC!!!!!!

A lot of this I have said before, so please bear with me.

Many, if not most, people who are in Generation Y feel that they are entitled to an education at an elite school, and that anything less is worthless. They take out extremely high loans, and graduate with debt loads in the mid-high five figures, if not more...it is not unusual these days to see kids graduate with a bachelor's in one hand and a six figure promissory note in another.

You say that your EFC is about $24,000. I don't know how much your parents are willing to contribute...let's say the cost of UC, which would be about $12,000. That means you would have to take out about $12,000 a year, plus another $3-4,000 that the college gives you in your award. Let's use the low end, of about $3,000. That means each year you will take out $15,000 in loans. Most of these loans will be unsubsidized (private loans always are), which means that interest will accrue during school. This means this debt ($60,000 if completely subsidized) could become $75,000 easily in May 2006, when you graduate. It will probably accrue a bit more during the "grace" period.

Now it's Thanksgiving 2006. You get the bill. $75,000 of unsubsidized debt translates to $950 to $1,000 a MONTH, or over $11,000 a year POST TAX you're giving back to the loan companies. Think about it. Eleven thousand dollars each year, which you could do so much with, will go right out the door to the loan company. Even if you get a good job in business or something like that where you may be making $40,000 a year, or about $27,000 post tax, you are essentially giving up nearly half of what you earn, and you will not be able to afford anything beyond the bare necessities for ten years. No car, no savings, no fun, no nothing. And even if you are happy living with your parents till 32, you will still be miserable thinking about all the money that you are paying each month. Unless you KNOW FOR SURE you will be making an extremely high salary for a bachelor's (a job you already secured on the order of $65,000, which is almost impossible)...and nothing is for certain...as I said, Generation Y thinks that everything will work out in the end, and I hate to burst your bubble but that's not the case, it will be a terrible existence.

What's scary is that I'm assuming your parents will contribute half of the EFC. If they contribute nothing, then you can almost double these figures.

Believe me...an education at a state school, especially at UC, one of the best in the US, is nothing to be ashamed of. Even if in the end you make a few thousand less than if you went to Haverford, in the long run, it will be worth it. You will be able to afford things you want and not have to fork over everything just for a piece of sheepskin. Haverford is an excellent school...no doubt about it. But is it worth it to go into extreme debt just for this? Maybe to some people it is. And those people are the ones who are suffering.

By albee (Joshbell) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 05:26 pm: Edit

wow, that certainly was an eye-opener. tat situation is painted rather bleak, but im sure there must some way to get myself outa debt. so there is a way to get loans w/o a cosigner? also, i'm on the waiting list for johns hopkins. if I get in (hail mary!), is JHU worth the price? in haverford's fin aid info, they explicity state they are very generous w/ fin aid. so, say i get a 8-10k grant, will tat be worth it? thanks..sorry to annoy u guys but i gotta know

By California Mom (Calmom) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 04:41 am: Edit

Albee,

If your EFC is $24K, you simply aren't going to get decent money for a needs based award. There is no way around it. Mark Y is right on the math.

I'm sorry your parents won't help you with a private LAC -- I'm on your side, and am paying for my son to go to an east coast LAC - however, he was given a grant of almost $21k for the first year. That brought the cost of the LAC down to only a few thousand more than UC. [Mark's estimates of the cost of a UC education are on the low end -- if you include all costs, housing, books, incidentals, etc., it's about $15k - $18k annually to attend a UC]. If my son hadn't received the financial aid, he was prepared to go to Berkeley.

I'm a UC graduate - I went to Davis for undergrad - and I had a good time and got a good education. I ended up writing my own major, but this was done through a department with interdisciplinary majors, so I had an advisor and got to know many faculty members closely. I had mostly small classes -- some were very small, I remember one seminar with only about 8 students -- and it wasn't hard to get the small classes. In fact, that wasn't even important to me - I was just signing up for classes that looked interesting, but more often than not they ended up being fairly small. Of course I also had some huge classes, but not too many after Freshman year. I never had difficulty getting into classes I wanted, except that sometimes I had to go on a waitlist to get into a class that was full. But there would always be someone dropping the class so space would open up.

You can't shoulder the debt, and you probably can't get loans without a cosigner anyway. You need to talk to your parents. Did they tell you all along that they would not pay for an out of state private college? Did they know you were applying to Haverford and JHU?

I'd like to point out one more thing. My son loves his LAC. He is very happy there and plans to stay there. But he has discovered there are some things missing that he could have gotten at a UC. Like the ability to take a class which doesn't require much effort, just for fun -- all of his LAC classes are in-depth and require substantial time commitments - there is no equivalent to the 1 and 2 unit extras that you can find at the university. (When I was a UC freshman, I took a 2 unit class called "introduction to human sexuality" - it was pass/fail only -- and it was a lot of fun. No, we didn't have a lab. Just a lecture. But no one ever fell asleep in class.)

When I was at UC, I always took fun courses like that - I would generally take 3 classes that were serious, fulfilling breadth requirements or related to my major, and then 1 class that was an easy elective, such as film or a dramatic arts workshop. It just made school more interesting, and with the quarter system it was easy to do that and still get all my required courses.

There are also a lot of courses that my son's LAC doesn't offer. It's just too small to offer everything. He'd like to study Japanese, but they don't offer it at his LAC. If he were at a UC, it would be very difficult to think of something that the school didn't offer.

Again, my son is happy -- but he can see that the LAC experience isn't really "better" than UC, it's just different. He has told me several times that even though he is happy at his school, he also feels he could have done well and been happy at Berkeley.

So, try to understand that even if your parents are imposing a choice that you think is unfair, it's not a bad choice. You can really have a good time at either UC campus, and basically at the UC's you make a niche for yourself in the end. Depending on where your interests take you, you may find extraordinary experiences that could never happen at a smaller college, simply because the University is so big, with so much to choose from.

Good luck.

By R Ko on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 08:17 am: Edit

albee-
speak to FAO - you never know.....are there any special circumstances? read other messages on financial aid - some good points made out there...this may be tough for you since your parents are leaving it all up to you. one alternative suggestion is to go to UC or wherever on Calif and then transfer after Freshman year or do reverse?
I started out at an ivy league school and transferred to state u due to $$$. everything was left up to me to figure out. good luck...ok,,,here is something to do and very very basic - take out a sheet of paper - on one column Haverford and other State U - write down why you want to go to each no matter how silly or inspiring your thoughts are - put it away for a few hours and look back - is it worth the debt to you? no matter where you go - you will be fine...but do not look back....after decision is made - hard not to but try...

By Mark Y on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 01:24 pm: Edit

A suggestion I have may not be to your liking (at least not to most Generation Y kids), but I think that this is the only way that you can go to a school like Haverford and avoid crippling debt. You may want to attend community college for two years (California community college from what I hear is extremely cheap), work part time and save as much money as possible, and transfer as a junior. I don't know if Haverford has a transfer program...several elite schools do. I know Cornell (an Ivy) does...many people go to CC for two years and transfer there.

If you do this, you may be able to avoid a serious load at graduation. You (and your parents) may be able to save a little nest egg from the money you save, and use the money for Haverford later, which you will only have to spend two years tuition on instead of four. For instance. Say you and your parents manage to save $5,000 a year over the next two years (REMEMBER to put it in your parents' name!). That will mean $10,000 will be available. Since it will be in your parents' name, it may raise your EFC by $600 or so...not much at all...so it goes up to say, $25,000. You use $5,000 for each of the two years, and your parents pay what they would pay for UC (let's say $10,000/year). Maybe you can come up with $3,000 extra from part-time work. That will reduce your loans per year to $25,000-$5,000-$10,000-$3,000 or $7,000, plus the usual $4,000 in the aid package, or about $11,000/year. Multiply that by two and you get $22,000. Add interest (remember most are unsubsidized), and the load may be $24,000 at graduation (since it's only two years of loans you don't have as much accrued interest as if it were four years). It's a HIGH debt, but it's probably doable.

As I said before, to take out $15,000 a year or more in student loans is extremely dangerous to your financial well-being. Unless you already have an investment banking job lined up, I strongly suggest you don't do it. I know you in Generation Y think so optimistically and have no cynicism in your head at all...but you have to think realistically. Having to pay a thousand dollars every thirty days for ten years, just as you begin life, is something that is almost incomprehensible. You will spend your twenties with no life, no fun, no chance to save any money, just struggling to make ends meet, EVEN if you have a professional job that would normally be lucrative. It is almost universal in your generation that you think that you will be better off than your parents. With $100,000 in loans hanging over your head for years, that will never happen.

Please, before you make a decision, it is IMPERATIVE you think about this realistically. UC has a great program, and people graduate there making lots of money. If you have the brains, it doesn't matter where you go to school. You will be successful whether you go to Harvard or Podunk City College. But most Gen Y kids today don't think that way.

By Dadster on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 01:17 pm: Edit

there must some way to get myself outa debt

Paying it off is about the only way. Filing for bankruptcy used to be another way, but that loophole are mostly closed now. If you are highly confident of a very lucrative career (e.g., your favorite uncle is a managing director at J. P. Morgan), incurring $100K in personal debt might make some kind of sense; otherwise, it's courting financial suicide.

Albee, check out the A New Kind of Financial Aid - Risk Capital thread for discussion of a different way to finance education with MyRichUncle. Be sure to read through the discussion, as some of the risks of that approach are pointed out. Even MRU might be better than a crushing debt load...

By albee (Joshbell) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 04:47 am: Edit

ok thanks guys for your realism..ill inform you of what happens.

By Mark Y on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Dadster, you mentioned bankruptcy...I'm wondering if anyone knows if private loans can be "cleared" via bankruptcy. Obviously federal loans are not, but since private debt are really convential bank loans, I wonder if it's any different...

By Dadster on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 01:58 pm: Edit

I would tend to think that private loans would require a cosigner, simply because bankruptcy WOULD clear them. As far as I know, a private loan is no different than any other kind of consumer loan in that respect. Unless the student had major collateral of his/her own, I can't imagine a lender just granting a loan against that individual's signature. I do wonder, though, about med school and similar loans. Surely the parents still aren't cosigning at that point...

By Mark Y on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Well, I know that most undergraduate private loans do require a cosigner for freshmen, but after that point, some do not require one. However, the interest rates are higher when there is no cosigner and/or the borrower is not "credit-worthy"...only "credit-ready". It's really interesting to know how parents who cosign these private loans feel about the whole situation since they realize that if their child cannot pay back their loans (which when you get up into the mid-upper five figure level probably becomes more common), they're responsible. And I'm REALLY interested to hear about parents who foist PLUS loans on their kids, since the kids have absolutely NO OBLIGATION to pay them off, and essentially the parents are actually risking their OWN financial futures (not the kids) on the backs of their children.

By Dadster on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 11:50 am: Edit

I guess who pays off these loans can be a little loose - the parent may be on the hook for student loans if the student defaults. Conversely, a parent might work a deal for the student to pay off a PLUS loan if the interest rate or terms of a PLUS loan were superior to a loan made to the student.

I think the important thing in all this is for everyone to go into the deal understanding the long-term costs of these loans. A $50K loan may have little meaning to a college undergrad, but if that's expressed in terms of projected monthly payment amounts and duration, it may hit a little closer to home. Then again, a monthly payment amount may not be very real either - until one has to write that first repayment check while receiving entry-level pay.

B-school grads may be the latest victims of excessive loans. Some are graduating with $70K in loans, but are finding jobs scarce. An article in the WSJ notes that about 40% of NYU's Stern Business School graduating class has yet to find a job, and many are interviewing for lower-level positions than the ones they quit to get their MBA. Of course, the recession appears to be drawing to a close and six-figure starting salaries for elite B-school grads may make a comeback.

By Mark Y on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 01:12 pm: Edit

That's the thing, Dadster...to be honest with you, getting into $70K or even $100K in debt for an MBA or for an MD is OK, since in general, most students who get those degrees make so much money that their loan payments are not a high percentage of their salaries. If you have an MBA and make $80,000 a year and $100,000 in student loan debt, you may be left with about $60,000 a year pre-tax (assume $1,200/month payments or $14,400 a year...and then add tax). Sixty thousand is definitely liveable, even in places like New York. And even if they have to defer/make smaller payments for a while while they try to get their foot in the proverbial door, and interest accrues, they will still have a decent amount to live on when they find a job. If this were a deeper recession, there might be some concern, but all-in-all, the job market should improve in the next few months.

On the other hand, if you borrow $100K for a bachelor's, like many Gen-Y kids are doing, you will be a financial wreck. A good business entry level job may pay $40,000. With $100,000 in loans, making the minimum payments, you're left with $20,000 pre-tax. Unless you have six roommates or don't mind living with mom and dad till your thirties and you can walk to work and you like Ramen noodles, it will be virtually impossible to live on. Remember, the loan officers don't care if you're starving...they want their money!

By Rashea Lawing on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 11:09 pm: Edit

hello i attend towosn university which is right outside of baltimore,md. i have a really great deal w/ scholarships that pay my tuition and room and board entirely during the REGULAR semesters' (FALL and SPRING.the problem is im a double major and i want to graduate in four, not five years. next year im definately going to summer school and last winter for minmester i took 6 credits and had to take out a loan to cover those expenses. i know ill need loans for next summer'03 and i heard that various companies after graduation will pay your collge loan debt off if you work for their company for a specific time...so my question is how do these programs work? if you stick w/ the certain company for the specified time given in the contract do you get a full or partial payment of your loan off or the whole thing? And if you only work or fulfill half of the time your suppossedly agreed to in the beginning, will they compensate your loan payoff only half or not at all? Thanks.

By Dadster on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Rashea, I don't know of many companies that have blanket policies to pay off loans. I think this would be something negotiated at time of hire. Companies in fields like investment banking can be pretty flexible in this area, but they are used to paying big signing bonuses, too, for the candidates they really want. In this job market, typical companies pay very few signing bonuses, if any, and I'd be surprised if many were interested in paying off loans.

If you are lucky enough to find a company with a loan payoff plan, I would guess that they would pay them off on some kind of pro-rated basis if the amount was more than a few thousand dollars.

By OLUWASEGUN OLASUPON on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 05:58 am: Edit

my name is olasupo oluwasegun dolapo. i need a cosigner that will help me to get loan via IEFC.

By OLUWASEGUN OLASUPON on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:02 am: Edit

my name is olasupo oluwasegun dolapo. i need a cosigner that will help me to get loan via IEFC.My postal address is stated below
ijaye high school.
u.i.po box 19529
ibadan nigeria

By Musketeerlady (Musketeerlady) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 09:52 pm: Edit

Mark Y, can I ask why should "REMEMBER to put in on your parents' name" with money you save? I'm wondering because my dad is sending me some money for college (he's in poland) to my saving account. I want to send it to my mom's account but she doesn't like to mess with it (my parents are divorced, so...) Does the college expect me to pay all the money I have in my account? If it's under my mom's name, is it less? (I need a good reason to persuade her.) Please help. Thanks a lot.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 01:48 am: Edit

If the money is in your mom's name, it's less.

If it's only a small amount, it really won't matter.

The college will expect you to put at least 35% of whatever you have in savings toward your education, but they will only expect about 5% from parents savings accounts. So lets say it was a large sum, like $30,000. Right there, your EFC would be increased by $10,000 if the money is in your name, but only by about $1500 if the same money is in your mom's name. So it makes a huge difference.

On the other hand, you have to be able to trust your parent. If your mom is really short of money herself, she could be tempted to "borrow" from money that was supposed to be for your college. I'm not trying to insinuate anything about your mom, but that sort of thing does happen.

By Carmen797 (Carmen797) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

The past semester and this current semester (2002-2003), I am attending a private University. The tuition for this university (Maryville University St. Louis) is incredibly high. This means in order to pay for my education, I would have to take out a loan for $13,000 a year plus the $4,000 a semester I already get from federal loans. Although I love the school, it offers everything I need as far as student to teacher ratio, advisors, communications classes (my major is communications (Maryville has a really good program), size and location. However, I know my debt will be unbearable after I graduate. I don't think attending Maryville will be worth that much trouble. But the crux of my problem is this: I have a balance of $6,500 from last semester that has not been paid. I need a co-signer to be approved for a private loan and I cannot find a credit worthy co-signer. The semester is already halfway through, so the University may let me finish even though I have that balance. But I know when this semester is over I have another $6,500 balance for the current semester that will be added to the previous balance from last semester. All together, my debt for this year will be over $13,000 dollars. I know I will not be able to attend the same school next year, but I also will not be able to recieve my transcripts in order to transfer my credits to another school if I don't pay the balance. Help...Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Mdmom (Mdmom) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 09:28 am: Edit

Sallie Mae offers private loans for undergraduate degrees and you don't need a co-signer. I believe their current rate is 5.8%.

By Carmen797 (Carmen797) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Thanks for your response Mdmom.
I applied for about seven loans including Sallie Mae. But like the rest Sallie Mae said that I had not established enough credit to get the loan without a co-signer. If I had at least two years of credit histoty, I would be able to get the loan.

But thanks I appreciate your help. Do you or anyone else know of any other alternatives?

By Leandra83 (Leandra83) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit

I'm currently a sophomore (and former communication major) that decided to transfer to study film. My options are CUNY-Brooklyn College and Full Sail. I can get a BA at Brooklyn, but I might have to be in school for 3 or more years (I'm on quarters here; they're on semesters, and the credits won't transfer well). At Full Sail, I'll only get a Associate of Science in 13 months, but I get much more extensive study in film. I'll get hands-on training on technology being used in the industry now...over 1500 hours worth of, whereas I'll get hands-on training at Brooklyn with older equipment and much less...under 900 hours. Thing is...Brooklyn is about $7000 for the first year, and after that year I can claim NY residency and pay half, and the final semester is free. However, keep in mind the cost of living in NY and what I'll pay in rent, etc. At Full Sail, the tuition is $34000 and I can share an apt for about half the cost in NY. My mom won't cosign on a loan; I already know that. Is Full Sail even a possible option? Can I get a $30,000 loan without a cosigner?

By Steve25 (Steve25) on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Hello! My name is Svetislav, I am 25 and I live in Serbia&Montenegro, former Yugoslavia. I graduated at the faculty of Electrical Engineering, department of Telecommunications at the University of Nis, Serbia and received BSc degree in September, 2002. This winter i have applied for Ph.D. studies to several universities in USA, and was accepted as full-time doctoral candidate for fall 2003 term at Northeastern uni, Boston,MA. Unfortunately, I was not offered graduate assistantship due to small number of assistant positions for 1st year students. I want to take an international student loan, but have no relatives or friends in the States, so I don't know how to find u.s or canadian co-signer for my loan. Please, if anyone knows somebody who is willing to sign, or has any proposition what should I do and where should i look to find a co-signer, contact me. I can guarantee with the property of my family here in Serbia, if that is an option.
Any link or suggestion would be highly appreciated !!!