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It sucks to be middle class. Rich people can pay for college. Poor people get a bunch of scholarships. It's us. The middle class. Around $140,000 per yr in income, with high property taxes, insane cost of living. My EFC is like $40,000. I LIVE IN SILICON VALLEY!!!! My parents are in debt!!! No way they can pay that much.

Do any colleges take into account the cost of living?

By Serene (Serene) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:54 am: Edit

they do, but it's hard to imagine your family spends much more than $100,000 a year...

By Serene (Serene) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:55 am: Edit

and when you apply, ask for an early estimate of finaid packet (which means you need submit your financial information early too. depends on the college too).. sometimes you can haggle with them =)

By Dolce (Dolce) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 08:43 am: Edit

Is it just me, or does 140K not sound very "middle class?" I certainly don't know of very many jobs that pay that much, or even half that much. I think of our family as middle class, but we don't come anywhere close to that income. Maybe our kids will get a lot more fin/aid than we have been thinking!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 09:51 am: Edit

In high cost-of-living areas, $140K yields a fairly middle class lifestyle.

Take about $30K for income taxes off the top and figure a housing cost (principal, interest, property taxes, and insurance) of another $50K. For an EFC of $40K, that would leave $20K for everything else...which is harder than it might sound.

WCK, yes, in a curiosity, a number of the private schools actually do take cost of living into account. By all means, your parents should feel free to attach a narrative explaining any circumstances which makes their FASFA and CSS more understandable to a financial aid committee. The private schools are much better about this than public schools like the UC's.

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:19 am: Edit

Wow, I'm in a similar situation (but in So Cal), (parents in the $90-100), they own two homes, and stocks and mutual funds. HOWEVER, do the colleges see that they've already refinanced several times? And that the stocks and mutual funds are worthless? Do those go into the EFC? My sister's EFC was the full cost...what does it look like for me? (she goes to a public- im thinking about private)

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit

We are considered middle class and we make about a 1/3 rd of that $140,000 , and we live in an expensive area as well.
We would be thrilled to be able to have $10,000 more a year, let alone $100,000 more than our take home income, it is true that my daughter qualifies for more need based aid than someone who makes more than 6 figures, but proportionally our EFC is the same, additionally we do not have the money for necessities as someone with a larger income.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Greenmoo--If you wiil be the second student in college in your family (at the same time), that will indeed lower the EFC for your family--and "improve" the financial aid situation for you AND your sister. Colleges view "multiple children attending college" as a bigger drain on family resources.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I also live in the Bay Area. The cost of living here is pretty high, for example, a 3 million dollar house here..is only 1 million anywhere else in the country. They really ought to take that into account.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit

"only 1 million...

I sure wish I could find some of those cheap $1MIL starter houses... I could fix the leaky faucets and the back screen door---and before you knew it, they'd be inhabitable.

By Mrpancake_2000 (Mrpancake_2000) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Laugh all you want, but also where I live in So. Cal 1 million dollars buys a pretty nice house, but certainly not a mansion by any means. A scary thought, for sure.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 07:39 pm: Edit

...and inside these pretty nice $1MIL houses are living people who consider themselves middle class, godforsaken, maxed out, and abused by an unreasonable EFC?

Is that what's troubling you, Bunky?

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 08:39 pm: Edit

I just checked real estate listings in southern CA and they don't sound any higher than our area. I am not saying my area isn't ridiculous, I think it is. Haven't they heard that prices are supposed to be dropping by now?

For instance a friend just sold their 2 bedroom 1 bath home 1920's era house ( no updates- no fireplace- no dishwasher) for $450K. Unfortunately they found out afterward they were developers, who ruined it by adding another bedroom, ripping out the landscaped backyard, put vinyl siding( wide vinyl siding) on it and sold it 2 months later for $850K. It has lost any charm it had, at least on the outside and it doesn't fit in with the neighborhood anymore. It about made me throw up to walk up the alley and see the deck that they added to the back- 1920's houses don't have decks)

So to answer your question, while your EFC may seem high to you, it isn't unusual for someone making over 6 figures.
But the good news, Ca public schools area very good and very reasonable for instate students.
There are also various state scholarships for residents that can be applied to Ca private schools.
Private schools, especially if you target not just reach, but good fit and safety schools have more wiggle room in financial aid. For instance I know a girl with little need, but her scores are higher than the average student and is recieving full tuition for four years at Mills College. Still a great school for her, but she brings their average up so they help her financially.
You can also spend a lot of time applying for independent scholarships, but frankly I think the best use of time is to find the schools that may be off the beaten path a little, where you would enjoy going.and where they offer merit aid. The most money comes from the schools themselves for most kids. Some public schools also have very good honors programs, and merit aid is often given to students who qualify for these programs. You get the perks of smaller classes, but have the resources of a university.

It can be a big shock to see your EFC, afterall isn't it supposed to be something you can live with?
But when you see how little Pell grants cover for those students whose families are living on $28K and less, it is a little easier to put it in perspective.

By Optimystic (Optimystic) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:46 pm: Edit

From our experience, there is absolutely nothing and I mean nothing that you can say or do to get financial aid with that kind of income. They simply won't budge. Believe me, I tried. We are paying (albeit not the entire cost) to educate two children at expensive colleges and another child in a private school. Even with those expensive schools, remarkably, they say we can afford it. Pardon me while I go heat my beans and weeenies. My sympathies are with you!

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:55 pm: Edit

If need based financial aid is a system designed to help lower income families... it does not logically follow that it was designed to hurt higher income families.

I don't claim to have deep understanding of the motivations of FinAid officals. Perhaps they think that higher income families simply have more discretion in their spending habits than do lower income families.

A lower income family does not have the discretion to spend as if they had a high income (well, not for very long!)

Higher income families must necessarily spend more of that income to satisfy job requirments: for example, most people in the professions simply cannot "afford" to look poor. Beyond that however, higher income families must have some discretion to adjust their lifestyle down a tad--and pay some of that college bill.

The point of my post... is that colleges probably just do not want to hear that higher income families have essentially no discretion in this matter.

In any event, the poor and the wealthy alike, are generally not reluctant to suggest changes in each other's budgets. I suspect this post ruffles more feathers than are in the average pillow factory.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 09:38 pm: Edit

I was contemplating some of these same points while driving around today. I'm in a line of work where I actually dress more casually than most yet I still have to spend more than a lot of people for a work-related wardrobe; it's also pretty much a requirement that I have a decent car--probably entry-level luxury--not more than about seven years old. The car payments, they are always with me.
It has nothing to do with my competence but it would give potential clients pause if I didn't conform to a middlin' degree with those standards.

We own a modest townhouse that's across the alley from a so-so apartment building that, on its other side is across the street from a mobile home park...in short, a very modest neighborhood...at a monthly mortgage rate that would would make many people choke.

I'm looking forward to explaining all this on the FASFA. Not.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Fortunately for most, there's no line on the FAFSA that asks about the housing available down the street!

Basically, colleges are saying to people, "You go live the way you want to live. Live where and how YOU choose. But... if we determine from the FAFSA that you could be paying for your child's college education... we want that money. Yes, it does seem a bit unfair that someone else should have an opinion about how much of your income and assets is discretionary, but it is the college that you are asking to take up the slack! They certainly have every right to establish how much, if any, they are going to help you out.

If you go out to buy a house, telling the real estate agent that you will probably have to eat rice and beans so that you can afford the payments, is not going to get you a break on the price of the house. He would find the conversation embarrassing. Yet when we cry that our EFC is going to impact our future diet (which, by the way, is a total crock) we expect the college to cave in, lower the EFC, and raise their grant.

Behind those FinAid doors I expect there is a conversation that goes like: "Look at this Jones family. Back when little Johnny was 7, didn't the parents have some inkling that in 10 years they would be faced with a huge expense for college? Why didn't they buy into that slightly less expensive house, and just bank the savings? They could have done that, but now they want US to give them more grant money. No way! And look over here at this Thedads family... by contrast they're living so frugally... let's lower their EFC and give them a nice big fat grant!"

I just can hear TheDad over there hoping, "Yes! Yes!"

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Actually, what I'd expect to pay is about half of what I anticipate. I anticipate I'll be paying full.
MT, the cost-of-living issue is real for some areas: NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, Honolulu in particular. The question isn't buying the less expensive house down the street, it's moving to an area with a worse school system or a 90-minute commute each way or both. Each of which has substantial negative trade-offs in bringing up children.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:40 pm: Edit

You might just be overestimating the quality of the school systems in those cities... and underestimating the quality of the schools in areas with considerably lower housing costs.

I sure wouldn't plan on a short commute in New York or LA and not for several years (if ever) in Boston.

Having worked in four of those cities and lived in one for a considerable time, I remain unconvinced that any are great places to raise children---other than the obvious lure of culture.

Never been to Honolulu... flew right by once.

---

I'm really the last person in the world with which to have a discussion about cost of living. When I first moved here and bought this place, my first real estate tax bill was 96 cents for the year. I xeroxed the statement and sent copies to friends in New York.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit

It's the quality of the schools *where* the metro environment. LAUSD is horrible in the middle schools and not great in the high schools...elementary are some good, some awful, some in between.

If one works at UCLA (TheMom), the school systems within a reasonable commuting distance that are good are Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Manhattan Beach, Calabasas, San Marino, and LaCanada...all with ka-CHING! housing prices to one degree or another. Optimizing combination of school quality, commuting distance, and accessibility to D's EC, Santa Monica was the best choice and probably about the least expensive; fact is, we rented for years until we could afford to buy here rather than moving further out. And the commuting distances for those districts go out to an hour-plus. Schools, commute distance, and (later) EC drove the whole process.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:02 am: Edit

This conversation is getting to "Quality of Life" issues. Many people say things like, "Oh I could never live in a place like...

Phoenix or
or...the farm belt
or...San Diego
or...Tampa
or...Boston
or...the country
or...near a highway
or...in Europe or...
...anywhere but where I am now."

Hogwash! Humans are very adaptable and seem to thrive under conditions they could hardly imagine possible. They do have a fear of the unknown though.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:41 am: Edit

MT, if we all moved to rural West Virginia a) you'd hate it and b) it would be more like California.

Sure people can move. But at what cost? For 20+ years, TheMom had a job that she enjoyed that didn't exist anywhere else in the country for a peculiar number of reasons. My business is location-specific as well.

Face it, people like you who get back to the land, or people like me who are self employed, are what society can't afford too many of. We're just lucky that it accommodates *us*.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:16 am: Edit

You've got that right!

Speaking of getting back to the land... in the area where I am, there were a LOT of people who got back to the land---and then, slowly, got themselves back to the city. All took the same tortured route back, with an obligatory stop in one particular small town that was so dreadful: it had no saving grace whatsoever. You couldn't buy freshly laid eggs or see a movie or eat anything but fast food. After a few months of that netherworld they were ready for the big city lights again. This morning I heard the news that one of the first back to the land back to the city people I knew flew a little plane into a tree and died... never would'a happened if he'd just stayed put.

I think the rest of the country is in general agreement that Californians should stay in California. Certainly that sentiment seemed strongest in Oregon where I saw billboards to that effect and was repeatedly asked (with attitude) "...you from California?" "No, No, not me!" The general feeling that the whole culture is going to hades in a hand basket is speeded along by the Californization of television. As soon as people realize that its really not that bad elsewhere, they breathe easier.

I've met West Virginians living in every state in the land---all terribly homesick, even to the point of being genuinely happy to run onto me: a person who, even after 30 years in the hills, still can't talk right. My wife and I knew a young woman who left the state to get a job near Washington D.C. A few months later we saw a postcard from her that, among other things, proclaimed that "They got this thing here they call 'rush hour'... where cars hardly move." Indeed.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:42 am: Edit

Don't worry, MT, we're serene that within a couple of generations it'll be down to us and NYC for determining the general country. We are a patient people.

Anent Oregon, I once saw a card with Interstate 5 on the front, saying, "Oregon's governor Tom McCall invites you to visit..." open up the inside and it said, "Idaho, Washington...." and it showed I-5 taking a detour around the border of Oregon.

Regarding the guy with the plane, if he'd stayed put, he'd likely a been in the tree hit by a plane. When the Timekeeper calls "Time!" it doesn't matter where you are.

It's not just the lights of the city, it's season tickets to the ballet, proximity of a UCLA-caliber university, the ballet school of its caliber, four-star restaurants, being able to catch some damn good musical gigs on a whim, etc. And then there's the ocean, which some from mountain country think is a mighty wide river, they reckon. Funny, I don't go to the beach for years at a time...sunburn too easily...but just having it there to look at is enough to satisfy me. I understand those prehistoric folk who first tied a couple of logs together and pushed off from shore just to see what was out there.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 08:43 am: Edit

Re getting back to the land, I know of several kids whose parents had midlife crises and just quit their jobs to do something less remunerative. They didn't move from our pricey urban area, just lived on credit for a few years and ended up deeply in debt. Guess what? Their kids got financial aid. Now, I don't think kids should be deprived of a college education because their parents are crazy or have some sort of narcissistic entitlement, but....this hardly seems fair to the rest of us who keep slogging away on a daily basis.

Our son started college right after the stock market plummeted. Like everybody else we know, we lost literally half of our investments. The financial aid office had absolutely no interest in this. It also appears to have no interest in whether or not we can afford to support ourselves in our retirement (since I'm self-employed, our savings are my pension, though it looks as though I'll just keep on working!).

That said, Thedad, I think that our high mortgages, real estate taxes, etc., are pretty clear on the colleges' financial aid forms. And I gather that those of us in higher income brackets may qualify for aid if and when there is more than one kid in the family in college. We are hoping! Try Princeton's online Early Estimator and see how it comes out:
https://sweb.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/FinAid/finaid_form.pl

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:39 am: Edit

"They didn't move from our pricey urban area..."

That was the dumb part. Anyone who doesn't match their lifestyle with their income is soon headed for the skids. How much you make doesn't count nearly so much as how much you spend. Many people do not accept the challenge of keeping the spending considerably below the income---sadly true at all income levels.

Most of the people I knew that actually moved back to the land, were clever enough to make a go of it financially. What many could not handle were the 100 mile trips to the symphony/gallery, and the 75 mile trips to ballet lessons. (We put up with the weekly 75 mile ballet lesson trips, but gave up the symphonys and galleries in exchange for CDs and books of prints--with a rare trip to the real thing to keep it alive in our minds.)

The daughter of one of our friends--who also attended those ballet lessons--is just winding up a 6 month long national tour with the musical "Copa Cabana" and is going back to her dance and theater major in college--until her next tour. That's just what happens when you subject your kids to growing up in culturally deprived Appalachia. She was a home schooler too, by the way.

TheDad, within some years, the only thing that New Yorkers and Los Angelos won't be able to control... is the depth of the oceans around their window sills. Glad to hear you enjoy having the beach at close hand. I've got a sail boat you could borrow.

----

Well, I'm willing to call a truce to this grenade throwing party for a while, but still have a pretty good size sack of them left if y'all want to continue...

By Optimystic (Optimystic) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:42 am: Edit

Morgantruce, I can appreciate your opinion that those who have higher incomes should start saving early to send their kids to college in anticipation of them going off to college. I'm sure a lot of families are saving. We actually started saving the day our kids came into this world and we are still saving. My spouse and I didn't always have a lot of income. We, and I'm certain many other families have just managed whatever incomes we were making very well.

Unfortunately, living in Arkansas and Louisiana, which are notorious for having poor educational systems, we felt it necessary to send our kids to private schools and so we have been paying a considerable amount of our discretionary income to educate them their entire lives. At the same time, still saving for their college educations. We have always bought less house, less cars, less clothes, etc. because education is what we value. I agree with you that upper income families do have more "discretionary" income. That is why I think financial aid offices have no compassion for the middle class. A good quality education can be had without going off to the most expensive schools. However, who doesn't want the best possible education and happiness for their kids? It's just how much are we willing to pay for them to get it? College merit scholarships are great for those who receive them. I know it has helped us tremendously, but it is extremely hard for those who don't get merit scholarships or financial aid. It is fair that ED students get an opportunity to attend college because life is hard enough. At the same time, I just wish there was some way the upper middle-class and middle class didn't have to take such a direct hit.

I don't think there will soon be an easy solution to make the college admission process, financial aid allocation process or other inequitable processess a win-win situation for all.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:44 am: Edit

"Arkansas and Louisiana, which are notorious for having poor educational systems..."

West Virginia plays in the same league... and there are fewer choices for private schooling. We were very fortunate to have heard of, and were able to afford, Calvert School which made it possible to give our children a "private school quality" education regardless of where we chose to live.

Before agreeing to a blanket statement that middle and upper middle class families have taken it in the neck with EFC, I just think that it is only fair to look at each individual case---and that is exactly what the FAFSA and CSS Profile does. Those forms leave some blank space to explain special circumstance, and FinAid offices read letters from parents--and consider both what they can and what they choose to---since they are footing the bill.

Every citizen feels a bit shaken when they hear of any student who is financially forced to attend a lesser quality college. We find it difficult to sweep such news under the rug that is called the free enterprise system.

Coming from an "Optimystic" type of family remains the best hope for a good education any student can have.

By Eric (Eric) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:47 am: Edit

thank god for the cheap midwest

200k gets you a nice, new, middle-class home

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Is it just us, or does it seem that the self-employed middle-class get a double whammy on financial aid? We have never had 3 "decent" years in a row yet, so it is pretty hard to jump into a large 4 yr. commitment that would be a stretch in a good year. We chose a lifestyle that will allow us to pretty much meet all expected expenses in the down years.

If our whole reason for living were to make as much $ as possible, we would lead different lives, certainly. As it is, we just don't go for a lot of debt besides house and 1 car payment (so far!). Thankfully, the kids seem to suscribe to the same philosophy and don't expect us to jointly run up $50,000+ college loans.

Still, I feel some twinges when I hear my son tell people "Well, I really hoped to go to ***U, but it just wasn't meant to be." He, on the other hand, just grins and says "aaah, but there's always grad school to look forward to!"

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:06 pm: Edit

$200K won't get you a one-bedroom condo here.

Well, I'm willing to call a truce to this grenade throwing party for a while, but still have a pretty good size sack of them left if y'all want to continue...

MT, I'm glad to see that you're conceding and gracefully withdrawing.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Re getting back to the land, I know of several kids whose parents had midlife crises and just quit their jobs to do something less remunerative. They didn't move from our pricey urban area, just lived on credit for a few years and ended up deeply in debt. Guess what? Their kids got financial aid. Now, I don't think kids should be deprived of a college education because their parents are crazy or have some sort of narcissistic entitlement, but....this hardly seems fair to the rest of us who keep slogging away on a daily basis.

as far as I can tell the FAFSA considers debt not at all.
It didn't seem that the PROFILE actually did either. We have debt that has increased substansily ironically because of our financial circumstances, but our EFC has not changed.

Our income is aout a third of the first posters, and our EFC is also a third. Since it is hard to go below a certain level for housing/medical care/food, I think our EFC affects us more than someone who has their basic expenses covered.
We have to borrow our EFC all but a few thousand dollars that my daughter contributes.
We live in a very expensive area, albeit in what used to be a blue collar industrial neighborhood, we haven't moved, but now, except for us, few people are blue collar anymore, they can't afford it. Its still industrial however, by industry I mean wrecking yards, auto shops, gravel pits and other manufacturing.
However by living in an urban area with a denser population than elsewhere we are able to benefit from the availbility of goods and services that a smaller area may not be able to support. So this is where we are at right now, I would love to move, my husands company is thinking of moving to Chile', where manufacturing costs are lower, I would love to move there, but he doesn't have the flexibility of mind right now that I do.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

I can't remember much about the FAFSA or the Profile, but I agree that they are looking primarily at income. The people of whom I speak have fairly recently chosen to live on very low incomes, which helped them qualify for aid. Now, unlike people who are genuinely poor, these folks have pretty affluent-looking lifestyles -- nice homes, several cars, etc. One would never know how little income they had, because they support this lifestyle by constantly enlarging their debt. Once Junior is out of college (paid for by financial aid), they plan to declare bankruptcy. Is this a racket or what?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 02:51 pm: Edit

That's disgusting.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 03:35 pm: Edit

well that is a totally different thing
That seems really sleazy and not something I would want to be teaching my kids.
I do beleive that the mortgage debt is considered, and I know those who have refinanced to support extravagant ( from my standards) purchases of furniture, trips, cars, etc, and then recieved full tuition from schools that only offered need based aid, but to risk your house just so you can both get aid and go shopping, seems short sighted.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:45 pm: Edit

"That seems really sleazy and not something I would want to be teaching my kids."

You speak the truth there. A couple of kids at our kids' school are heard bragging about the big house (starter castle, we call them)and boat their parents own debt-free through a series of sleazy maneuvers, insurance fraud, etc. Since some of the contractors on the losing end of the liens are friends of ours, I can hardly stand it. But then as one outspoken friend of my S's observed: "Gee, we call that stealing in our house."

I hope those parents are prepared to reap what they have sowed.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Two points which may or may not be relative:

Going though bankruptcy is never the picnic people imagine.

Bankruptcy does not release a person from student loan debt.

----
Now I'll have to keep looking over my shoulder--TheDad refered to me and the word "graceful" in the same sentence!

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:17 am: Edit

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit


"only 1 million...

I sure wish I could find some of those cheap $1MIL starter houses... I could fix the leaky faucets and the back screen door---and before you knew it, they'd be inhabitable.


Obviously you haven't visisted my town in California, the median housing price is comparable to that of Manhatten Beach (TheDad mentioned it) and Malibu/Beverily Hills..except it is in northern California. For just under 1 million dollars you basically will be buying a shack...I can understand that is hard for you to understand, as the housing market in the rest of the U.S. aside from NY and other metro areas...isn't nearly as ridiculous - my family in Indiana is considered "well-off" and live in a 300,000 dollar house on the lake. People move here and buy 1 million dollar houses as starter homes, they fix them up and raise families in them. Seems a bit absurd doesn't it? My town isn't even that nice or anything...there is no beach..its just a 10 minute drive to Berkeley...but somehow the housing prices are ridiculous. My dad and I cant' seem to figure out the desire of one to move here and spend that much money on a house. We're surrounded by tons of different cities though..as we're in the Bay Area...so thats a pretty cool aspect.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 09:19 am: Edit

I am not at all surprised to see the housing market get more and more expensive. I guess the $40 million bungalow is not far off in the future... but I hope I won't be lining up for one. I recognize that people form attachments to the area they live in or, perhaps grew up in. But this is also a country known for people who pull up their stakes and move on. A good many of those people had no clue what they were getting into.

I won't bother explaing the very long story that led up to the following chapter in my life, but....

One day I was having an interesting conversation with Pete Seeger in his living room, while his daughter was cooking up a breakfast for us. After a while, I remarked to him about some detail I had noticed about the windows in his house. He replied, "I built them. As a matter of fact, I built this whole house."

Up to that point in my life, I had been living in several places close to New York. Quite honestly, it had never even crossed my mind that some people still built their own houses--I thought that period ended back in log cabin days.

So, there I was, with this incredibly interesting man, in his incredibly interesting house---totally unaware of the "fork in the path" I had come to.

-----

Several years later I built my own house... lots of oak, cedar, quarry tile--and even a little redwood and copper. Not lavish, but I tried to do everything right and used the best materials I could find. It heats in zone 5 with about a cord of wood. Even with all the modern conveniences and appliances, it cost less than many cars do today.

Would I trade places with some guy in a $1 million dollar "starter house" near Los Angeles? Well, that's about as likely as him wanting to trade places with me. Different strokes.

-----

I like to show guests a pair of wood bookends that I made as a project in "shop class" when I was in grammar school: "These bookends were my first wood project... this house is my second..." That's really not true... there was a cabin and a barn in between.

There are limitless ways to keep the rain off your head: assuming a multi-million dollar mortgage and building your own place... are just two.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

MT, for certain jobs, careers, pursuits, one just can't pull up stakes. You have to make that kind of mobility your top priority. Virtually all manufacturing and most service jobs outside of retail involve working in an urban environment. Duh.

You could, I suppose, radically transform society by reversing the industrial revolution and devolving society back to a rural-centered framework where stout yeomen sit around the village green saying "Yo!"...but I regard this as highly unlikely.

I'm grateful that the bulk of society is willing to do things *I'm* not willing to do, like working a 9-5 job for others, commuting, etc. Wouldn't dream of suggesting that others follow my path...will start making it more difficult for *me*.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 03:32 pm: Edit

I think it helps when we are in the position of being resentful that we live with a high cost of living and what may seem to others as a moderately high income that disqualifies from much need based aid, to remember that we have a choice. We made a decision to live here, we made a decision to pursue this line of work, and we have much more mobility than those who may be in areas with lower costs , but less mobility due to less education and less savings.

It's fine if we just want to vent about the outrageous costs of living, but when some of the people we are venting to may be living much farther down the economic ladder, we shouldn't be surprised when we don't get much sympathy.
I suggest reading
Nickel & Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich.
These people she meets in her book actually are spending more for housing than I am, yet they are living in squalid motels, because they can't save enough money to even get first and last to rent a decent room.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/e/ehrenreich-01nickel.html

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

I read the book. Everyone in my family read it too! Barbara Ehrenreich gives new meaning to the term "researching a book." Not only does she describe people living on the edge of disaster; she herself took minimum wage jobs, walked when she could not "afford" buses, and tried to make ends meet on a tiny budget and no savings---all in the name of writing this book! It is a part of America that is everywhere, yet is rarely seen or much understood by those with even slightly higher incomes.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:14 pm: Edit

To tell you the truth, this thread is making me feel much more affluent than I ever thought. The cost of housing in rural Texas is SO much more affordable than what I'm reading, it truly amazes me. I feel pretty blessed to be living in the country with 4 acres to mow and a "reasonable" housing cost for a comfortable home. Also helps keep the proper perspective when it comes to the drive involved in going to the big city to do things.

Thanks, guys - you made my week.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Anytime,Mo2.

Of course, comparisons are very skewy. Incomes are much higher in the city, too. Some costs are higher, some of those proportionately so, some more than proportionately so. And some costs are pretty flat. Items as diverse as books, jeans, and many domestic items are going to cost pretty much the same whether it's Manhattan or Broken Condom, New Mexico. Items where labor or real estate costs are a signficant component of price are going to be higher in the cities.

But it's the housing cost is a killer and the even there it's a pretty straightforward tradeoff between cost and commuting distance, modified by quality of the local public school system.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

True, but I'm also thankful that in these parts, the males, at least, are pretty happy with jeans from Penneys which are always on sale. School wardrobes don't kill us and most younger siblings are prepared for hand me downs, or "free neat shirts" as we call them. Now athletic shoes are a different thing, altogether!

True recent exchange:

Me: We'll need to get you some new shirts and things for college this summer.
S: I have plenty of shirts now.
Me: But you've been wearing some of them since your soph. year!
S: But they still look good and no one at school has seen them, so they'll be new to them.

Thank God for small favors.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 05:22 pm: Edit

You raised them "right" and I love that story!

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Items as diverse as books, jeans, and many domestic items are going to cost pretty much the same whether it's Manhattan or Broken Condom, New Mexico.

However, when families ( and teenagers) are surrounded by those who are doing much better on the economic scale or even look as if they do, there is more pressure to spend money to fit in. I know that not everyone succumbs to the pressure, and there are those who practically seem oblivious to it. It is one reason though why we moved out of the upper crusty suburb and into an urban blue collar neighborhood when we decided to buy a house. We downsized our house and our "lifestyle" in order to have more free time for family life .
For whatever reason, growing up in the suburbs, I felt very conscious of "brand names" and refused to buy shoes anywhere than Nordstroms. My 13 yr old has shoes from Volume and doesn't blink.( I do have good shoes for her too) So while a pair of brand new Levis may cost the same anywhere, there is a difference between a well used pair of levis and the retail price of Edwin jeans or whatever is the latest thing.
( we also cannot buy books anymore until we get rid of some of them!- no more bookshelves or room for such unless I start blocking windows!)

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Basically my parents they could sell the house and downsize/easily have enough money to pay for private school education. But the thing is they want to buy a house on the beach..and they feel the California State schools are sufficient enough..which I believe is true. It just sucks not neccesarily having the private school option. Plus they won't even be able to buy this house for another 5 years or so, cause they'll be stuck paying the tuition/room and board. It's funny how someone who makes 200,000+ can't even afford a private school, because the cost of living in California is so much.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 06:05 pm: Edit

( we also cannot buy books anymore until we get rid of some of them!- no more bookshelves or room for such unless I start blocking windows!)

Boy, can we identify with that stmt. That's why we have several of those little round, 3-legged tables with overskirts - you can get around 20 inch stacks of books under each!

Aside: We don't worry too much about break-ins. Unless a thief was into reading and classical/jazz, he wouldn't take much.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 06:09 pm: Edit

I grew up in the city, within a family that considered itself "comfortable"--whatever that is. I had some cousins that were not so "comfortable". One time I was listening to my cousin and heard him use a phrase I did not understand at the time... so I asked him, "What's a 'hand-me-down'?"

Ever since his explanation to me of that term--and that was 50 years ago--I have never felt any comfort in comfortable or in the insulation such a lifestyle affords. I also have never been at a loss for words whenever asked, "What was your most embarrassing moment?"

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Room and board would probably paid whether you are living at home for college or going away- costs seem pretty similar for most colleges whether private or public.

You actually are lucky, CA schools have a very good reputation, and the costs are very reasonable.
I don't think that it is out of line to take out a few loans, at least I hope not. Even with our comparatively low EFC, both my daughter and ourselves are taking out loans to help finance her education. She acknowledges that she will probably have to move back in with us for a few years after graduation in order to do so. ( She is thinking of grad school, but she also wants to work first)
While her debt, would have been much lower, had she gone to an instate public school, she felt that the trade off is worth it. I really don't know, & sometimes I worry about it.
Ironically she is taking 6 credits at the community college this summer and was complaining about the fees.
I reminded her that while 6 credits at the CC was about $375. a comparable class at her college ( 1 credit) was $4,900!
Big difference

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 06:25 pm: Edit

My experience was a little different: Until I filled out my own college financial aid papers, I had no idea my family was so poor "on paper." My stepdad was a farmer, so we always had an abundance of wonderful food. The house had been paid for in 1920-something.

I qualified for a Pell Grant, so I know there just wasn't a lot of cash coming in. Funny, but my parents were FOREVER taking food, clothing, supplies, etc. to "needy" folks. Many a Saturday afternoon, we went to the river, collected fish from the "trot line", CLEANED them and then delivered them to elderly folks who had once worked for my dad's dad. Every holiday, we cleaned the table and then delivered individual hot plates around the county, too. I thought everyone lived like that.

Felt rich enough to me at the time.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Mo2 & EmeraldK, you make some interesting points. We definitely have our vices, but clothing isn't one of them. For a teen, D's wardrobe is downright sparse, though money is spared for dance shoes or an adequate number of leotards to keep from doing laundry all the time. Books, otoh, yeah...I'm bummed that even moving from our cramped 950 sq. ft. apartment to a townhouse, we still can't have all the books in the house. I'm slowly reducing the boxes of unsorted accumulated crud in the garage so that I can actually have somewhat sorted boxes of books accessible in shelving along the walls out there. And Amazon has been a terrible thing for TheMom, who has acquired a stupendous amount of ballet music and has essentially provided the studio directors with a private library they can tap for shows, classes, etc.

We'd be more frugal about cars except I need a newish one for taking clients out. Even so, I buy one two years old to save the depreciation, use it five years, hand it to TheMom and repeat...the idea of having 10 year-old-cars and no payments is appealing but not until I retire.

The one place where our spending is out of reasonable balance is food. We all like it too much and will trade dollars for time by eating out more often than we should...but when all three of us are red-lined, having someone else cook and clean up afterwards is...a temptation.

By Morgantruce (Morgantruce) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

I have a vague memory of reading something that went like, "The best thing you can do for your son or daughter is to give them their own house free and clear. Without the burden of rent or a mortgage, they will prosper."

Yeah, OK. Raise your hand if you can do that. Lot's of people around here deed a piece of their farm to their kids, but I see that as a pile of potential problems.

Anyone hear any good trailer stories lately?

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 08:02 pm: Edit

The one place where our spending is out of reasonable balance is food. We all like it too much and will trade dollars for time by eating out more often than we should...but when all three of us are red-lined, having someone else cook and clean up afterwards is...a temptation.

That is often an area where families really spend money, when both parents are working full time. who wants to plan and shop for meals, let alone cook and clean up after them when you are tired hungry and one kid needs to go one direction and you still have an evening meeting.

Weekends are really the only time we eat together. After working nights for 8+ years when the kids were younger, after layoffs my husband is back on 2nd shift. But I am enjoying the summer pace, we don't really feel like eating till it is dark, and the girls are plenty big enough to do some meal planning and cooking of their own.
lately I admit dinner has been big bowls of vanilla ice cream with raspberries out of the back yard.
I wish our growing season was longer, I am not a farmer, but there is a lot of satisfaction in growing your own food.
There are even a ot of people in the city who have chickens!
I don't think we eat chicken or eggs enough to warrant all that mess, but I have been thinking about a duck to eat the slugs.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit

I may be contributing to the unraveling of this thread, but.... we used to set out aluminum pans of lukewarm beer for slugs. Bury them to ground level and see how many of the gross things are floating in the morning. Works every time - I swear. Cleaner than ducks, too!

(sorry for the divergence - it's late )

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Wow. Wait 'til Sluggbugg see this....

By Ty310 (Ty310) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 01:22 am: Edit

Just because your parents make a lot, that doesn't mean you can't get scholarships. Please stop whining being middle class and making "only" $140,000 per year. My household income is only $30,000 a year and I guarantee you that it is a lot harder for people like me, not you.

By Luc (Luc) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 02:09 am: Edit

Yeah seriously you have a really high income and probably had a really comfortable life campared to some of the people here so stop b*tching.