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As a person who is intimately familiar with the admissions process and life at Harvard, what would you say are the aspects of the school that make it stand out the most from other elite universities such as Yale, Princeton, and Stanford? I am aware of the obvious differences such as proximity to Boston and larger endowment, but how is day-to-day life better at Harvard? Why would a person choose it over Yale, with its incredible campus, Princeton, with its total undergraduate focus, or Stanford, with its perfect weather, assuming that the academics are fairly comparable (or is this not so?)? I realize that you're probably not as familiar with the other schools I mentioned, but any light you can shed on why you love Harvard above the rest would be greatly appreciated.

By Mr_Sanguine (Mr_Sanguine) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 10:35 am: Edit

All things like that are subjective...you say "yale with its wonderful campus" but thats just your opinion.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:19 pm: Edit

What I think Harvard has over the others is reputation (it is the school most widely perceived worldwide as the best college of all) and Boston. I love big cities particularly big, clean, safe college-oriented cities. IMO, Boston is the best city in the US for college students.

There are 50 colleges in a 50-mile radius. Thus, Boston has lots of smart, young people around, and lots of activities for them. It also has museums and other cultural activities, sports, anything you want except palm trees. (IMO the only wonderful thing that Boston lacks is a mild climate!).

I also like how Harvard students dive into their ECs and do them for fun at a professional level.

Yale's advantage over Harvard is its emphasis on undergraduate education. When I applied to college was the first year that Yale and Princeton took in women. I think that at least one of those schools didn't even announce that it was accepting women's applications. I had no interest in being in the first group of women at an all-may school so didn't apply.

I have visited Princeton and Yale within the 12 years, and went to grad school for a year at Stanford. All are excellent schools. I particularly loved Stanford.

Why I like Harvard best for me is: I disliked New Haven and I didn't like Princeton's preppy atmosphere and the lack of things to do in Princeton, N.J. It's a wealthy, boring city with little for college students to do off campus.

I do like the fact that wherever I go in the world, people have heard of Harvard and regard its graduates with respect.

I love Stanford's beauty, but missed big city life, and also found students' laid back, Calif. personalities a bit discomforting. I really like the intensity of people from the NE.

Bottom line is that all of the schools are wonderful places. Look for the right fit for you. Just because I love Harvard doesn't mean that it has to be your first choice.

By Mehere (Mehere) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Yeah, i have exactly the same question. I mean reputation does matter. But doesn't it matter more for grad school than undergrad?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Sure, reputation matters more for grad school, but I always feel that it's important to take the opportunity that one can get as an undergrad.

A bird in the hand....

Just because one is offered an Ivy education for undergrad doesnt' mean you'll get the same offer for grad school. For all one knows, one might decide not to go to grad school. Not every student planning to go to grad school does go there. Many change career paths or have life-changing events such as marriage, babies, health problems, family considerations that limit their grad school options.

When I went to grad school for the second time, I applied to schools only in DC because I was engaged, and my fiance had a great job in DC. I probably could have gone Ivy for grad school, but for nonacademic reasons chose to go elsewhere. I also knew that for the field that I was in, DC grad schools would give me great job/internship options in DC, where I planned to remain.

Lack of a graduate school Ivy degree never hurt me. Even when I moved out of the DC area, people still were impressed by my Ivy undergrad degree and by my graduate degree despite its not even being from a tier 1 school. It was from a school with an excellent graduate program in my field, plus having big city experience in the field went a long way.

By Hstudent (Hstudent) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 07:54 pm: Edit

take it from a current undergrad - there are many many more reasons to choose H than those mentioned by northstarmom - Despite what viewbooks might say, H is tremendously focused on undergrads (all profs must teach inthe college etc - exact same as yale, princeton, etc) and we actually have a fantastic time there (complete with real parties!- despite what u may hear)

bottom line - forget the •••••••• - if you want to go to an amazing school in a wonderful city - harvard is your place - people who say otherwise havent had the opportunity to experience what we have

good luck!

By Thereishope (Thereishope) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 09:37 pm: Edit

I'm sure princeton and yale alumni have the same thing to say about their schools.

By Hstudent (Hstudent) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit

im sure they do - they are all great schools!

By Anticipatory (Anticipatory) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I appreciate your responses. I am trying to decide between applying to Harvard or Yale EA. The things that bother me about the respective schools: Yale's location in New Haven and Harvard's ostensible lack of undergraduate focus. I know that you do not share this opinion, Hstudent; however, Northstarmom has experienced life at these institutions and you have only experienced Harvard, so I am inclined to believe that undergraduate focus is not Harvard's strength. If you have any opinions or evidence to refute that, please do so. I'm really trying to make an unbiased decision and I respect your opinion greatly, so anything you can tell me would be appreciated. If you have time to share any of those other reasons why Harvard is superior, please do.

Northstarmom - I have heard that Yale and Princeton focus more on undergraduates than Harvard, like you said. However, Hstudent brings up a good point: they all have similar guidelines for professors teaching undergraduates, so where does the difference really lie? If you could cite any specific examples, that would be great. Your point about reputation is a good one, but it is not enough to make me choose a school over one that would benefit me more as an undergraduate.

Again, Hstudent, I really value your input and I don't mean to dismiss your assertion without further inquiry. Anything you can add will assist me tremendously.

One other topic of interest for me is the difference between Yale's residential colleges and Harvard's houses. When I visited Yale, the admissions officer cited the residential colleges when asked why an undergraduate would choose Yale over another elite school. I have been trying to figure out the difference between the two schools in this respect and why he would place so much importance on a system that is seemingly also in place at Harvard as well as at Princeton (now, at least), but I don't see any stark differences. Are there any?

By Anticipatory (Anticipatory) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

bump

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 09:09 pm: Edit

The big difference between Yale's residential college system and Harvard's is that at Yale you are assigned to your residential college before you arrive at Yale and you live in a freshman dorm on Old Campus with members of your residential college (or in the case of 2 of the colleges you live all four years in your college). At Harvard, you live on or near Harvard Yard with all the freshmen and then you break into blocking groups of up to 8 (I am not too sure about the number) and your whole group is placed in the same house at the end of your sophomore year. Basically, at Yale you start with a preassigned community (and you get to start taking advantage of the residential college system as soon as you arrive), which can be nice but can also be limiting because in some cases it can be hard to meet people outside your college (especially if you don't live on Old Campus) although you eventually meet other freshmen through classes and ECs and stuff. At Harvard, you don't have any community preassigned to you outside of your freshman dorm, but you do get to ensure that a small number of friends that you make freshman year will be in the same house as you. As far as I can tell, the residential college system makes a bigger difference on the Yale community than Harvard's house system makes on its community.

Princeton's residential colleges only last your first two years (they are expanding it, but it hasn't to my knowledge happened yet). So they don't really compare to the Yale or Harvard system.

By Happystudent (Happystudent) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:41 am: Edit

I'm a freshman at Harvard. From what I've seen, life at Harvard revolves less around the Houses since Cambridge and Boston offer a trmendous amount of opportunities for social and EC activities. ECs here are incredible. You can write for the Harvard International Review for instance and have your article next to one by the prime minister of China, Kofi Annan, or Wesley Clark.

By Anticipatory (Anticipatory) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Thanks for the input. Anything else?

Original post:

I appreciate your responses. I am trying to decide between applying to Harvard or Yale EA. The things that bother me about the respective schools: Yale's location in New Haven and Harvard's ostensible lack of undergraduate focus. I know that you do not share this opinion, Hstudent; however, Northstarmom has experienced life at these institutions and you have only experienced Harvard, so I am inclined to believe that undergraduate focus is not Harvard's strength. If you have any opinions or evidence to refute that, please do so. I'm really trying to make an unbiased decision and I respect your opinion greatly, so anything you can tell me would be appreciated. If you have time to share any of those other reasons why Harvard is superior, please do.

Northstarmom - I have heard that Yale and Princeton focus more on undergraduates than Harvard, like you said. However, Hstudent brings up a good point: they all have similar guidelines for professors teaching undergraduates, so where does the difference really lie? If you could cite any specific examples, that would be great. Your point about reputation is a good one, but it is not enough to make me choose a school over one that would benefit me more as an undergraduate.

Again, Hstudent, I really value your input and I don't mean to dismiss your assertion without further inquiry. Anything you can add will assist me tremendously.

One other topic of interest for me is the difference between Yale's residential colleges and Harvard's houses. When I visited Yale, the admissions officer cited the residential colleges when asked why an undergraduate would choose Yale over another elite school. I have been trying to figure out the difference between the two schools in this respect and why he would place so much importance on a system that is seemingly also in place at Harvard as well as at Princeton (now, at least), but I don't see any stark differences. Are there any?

By Curly08 (Curly08) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 02:20 am: Edit

It's late, and I don't have much time tonight, but I feel passionate about a reoccurring theme that comes up over and over again on these threads. And, as a Harvard student and previous user of this site, I think it necessary to address the issue.

I keep hearing of “Harvard's ostensible lack of undergraduate focus” (sorry to use your quote, anticipatory, but it was very well worded). This really couldn’t be further from the truth. That’s all I really need to say, but I’ll continue nonetheless ;- ). I know three of my Profs well by now, and I’ve only been taking classes for three weeks. Just two days ago, I had lunch with my Genetics prof who is considered one of the “grandfathers” on the topic. A man who discovered m-RNA, convinced President Nixon to do away with the biological weapons program, and worked with more Nobel Prize winners than should be legal, took an hour out of his day to have lunch with me and “shoot the breeze,” as he put it. Another professor offered to the entire class a detailed, private lesson on mathematical modeling for epidemics. Aside from my personal experiences (some would argue that I just happened to get lucky), the Freshman Seminar program is a great way to build strong relationships with masters in their respective fields. Classes are LIMITED to 12 students—it’d be almost impossible for any Freshman in that class not to be the profs focus. Moreover, time after time we are reminded in lectures, emails, and through advisors to go and talk to our professors. I could continue but I think my point has been made.

I hope I haven’t come across as arrogant or overly aggressive, but the subject really frustrates me. There are other misconceptions on Harvard, and I’ll gladly write about those as well if you all would like.

I wish you all good luck in the college application process, I know how daunting it can be. Good night!

By Anticipatory (Anticipatory) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Curly08 - Thanks for the post. I have a friend at Harvard who told me that while the university's priority is its graduate schools, it by no means neglects undergraduates. He has had the opportunity to conduct research in the grad schools, so he even likes the fact that there are such strong graduate programs.

Irrespective of the university's priorities regarding students, I am starting to wonder exactly what "undergraduate focus" really is. If all of the top-level universities such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc. require their professors to be accessible and to teach undergraduates, why is a school considered less focused on undergraduates because it has very strong graduate programs? The way the top universities attract eminent members of the different fields of academia is by offering them research opportunities and unmatched resources. Why then, if they are coming to Harvard based on the possibility of research and pursuing their own studies versus if they are going to Princeton for the same reasons, is it assumed that they care less about undergraduates at Harvard simply because of the presence of powerful graduate and professional schools?

Curly08 - Please do write about other misconceptions concerning Harvard - and don't go out of your way not to boast about the school because you think you'll come across as arrogant. It's not fair that Harvard students should have to suppress their happiness about their university for fear of being viewed as stereotypical braggarts from Hahvahd.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 08:23 pm: Edit

I don't think anybody ever said that Harvard neglects its undergrads. Undergraduate focus is not a binary measure, but rather something that is measured spectrally. When a person says that Harvard has less of an undergraduate focus than does Princeton, that isn't to say that Harvard has no undergraduate focus. It just means that it has less than Princeton does. Nor can the lower Harvard undergraduate focus be disproved just by citing one-off examples. You can't "prove" that smoking is safe just by pointing to one person who smokes 3 packs a day and still lives to be 100.

What I think the real story is is that while both Harvard and Princeton both offer excellant undergrad education, it is true that Princeton does have more of an undergrad focus. That's, again, not to say that Harvard doesn't have any UG focus. Just that Princeton has more of one.

You ask what UG focus really is, and I freely admit that it's hard to define precisely. Basically, it's a loose definition that encompasses how focused the school is in serving undergrads. Where are the resources going, how are the social events, and that sort of thing.

Case in point - you ask why is it that if both Harvard and Princeton profs are interested in research, then how is it that Princeton can offer a better undergraduate focus. First of all, the question is a bit of a non-sequitur, because the fact of the matter, professors don't play the biggest role in determining the focus of the school. That's right, they don't play a major role. Think of it this way - as an undergrad, how much in a typical week do you really spend in lecture interacting with a prof? Probably less than 20. The vast majority of your time is spent outside the classroom interacting with other students, and that's where much of the focus is determined.

Case in point, I happen to know personally that every year, some of the best parties and mixers at Harvard are run by students at HBS, but those kinds of parties naturally cater to an older crowd. It's not that easy for a typical Harvard undergrad to relate to the HBS crowd. A lot of them are married, quite a few of them have kids, and all of them have been quite successful in the business world (that is, after all, how they got into HBS). It's a completely different social dynamic from what you would expect out of a bunch of undergrads. Imagine a Harvard freshman trying to find common ground with an HBS student who might be old enough to be his father - do you really think they have anything to talk about?

The same could be said for any of the other Harvard grad programs. The fact is, UG focus is usually not deliberately determined by the administration, and is certainly not determined by the profs, but is far more determined by the students. Let's face it. To a large extent, it's the students that create the social dynamic. And where, at a place like Harvard, you have more graduate students than you have undergrads, it's simply inevitable that the social calendar will cater more towards the graduate students. It's the students that ultimately make the school.

By Anticipatory (Anticipatory) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:19 pm: Edit

I understand your point, but I don't really see how grad students would dominate the social atmosphere. First of all, like you said, many of them have families and are obligated to people outside of the university. This fact leads me to believe that they would not be the majority in determining the social events on campus. Second, regardless of the graduate student population, Harvard undergraduates still outnumber Princeton undergrads. Even if the number were the same, one would expect that an undergraduate population of comparable size would have a comparable interest in having a social life that catered specifically to it. Why would the mere presence of graduate students deter undergraduates from creating activities unique to their situation and focusing their extracurricular interests on themselves? Do parties and events sponsored by grad students somehow weaken the motivation for undergrads to organize their own social events?

By Sakky (Sakky) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Again, don't get me wrong, I never said that Harvard doesn't have any UG focus at all. It's not an either/or question.

Now, let me answer your questions directly.

First of all, it's not true that just because you're married and/or have children, that you don't have a social life. To borrow a catchphrase, you're married, you're not dead. It's not that being married means you no longer have a social life, it's that now your social life is different. Again, take HBS as an example. Lots of HBS students are married. What that means is that a lot of the social life revolves around activities that are "spouse-friendly". Meeting up, say, John Harvard's Brew House with a bunch of HBS students often times means interacting with wives/husbands of said students. "Hello, I'm John Doe, and let me introduce you to my wife, Jane Doe", etc. etc. And, In fact, the spouses of HBS students tend to carry a tremendously active social life amongst themselves, to the point that it's often times the spouses who know where all the social activities are even better than the students themselves do. It does make sense after all, because the students are busy with academic stuff, and so it's the spouses who often times end up figuring out what all the fun activities around town are. So you often times end up with a situation where the spouses are the ones running a social activity.

Furthermore, even having children doesn't mean that you no longer have a social life. It just means that your social life is different. Generally it means that your social life involves family-friendly activities, where you interact with other students who also have children. Imagine you're an 18-year-old Harvard freshman trying to integrate yourself with a bunch of Harvard graduate students who are taking their children out to a child-friendly social activity. You must agree that it would be most awkward for you.

Or consider the angle of the professors. Many Harvard graduate students are almost as old, and in some cases, older, than many professors, especially those assistant profs who are just starting out, and share many of the same traits (wife, family, etc.) as those graduate students. If you were a 28-year-old assistant professor, who would you feel more comfortable with in a social setting, a bunch of 18-year-old freshmen, or a bunch of 28-year-old graduate students? As a freshman, it's almost ludicrous to think of inviting your professor out for a cold beer after class. But graduate students can and do do that all the time. The same can be said for TA's. It's difficult to socially interact with TA's as an undergraduate, because you're simply not at their level, socially speaking. But as a graduate student, you are basically a peer to the TA's.

And finally, let's look at it from a business standpoint. Think of all the bars, all the restaurants, and all of the other social venues around town. They tend to cater towards the grad-student crowd. Why? Simple, there are more of them and they tend to spend more (because grad students obviously will make more money once they graduate than will Harvard College students) , so it's easier to make a buck by catering to the larger and richer market.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Harvard College students can't form their own social activities. They obviously can and do with great gusto. But the point is that the fact that they are outnumbered by the graduate students naturally means that social activities will tend to be tilted towards the graduate students. A professor who gets an invite to an undergraduate social function and a graduate-student function that are both happening at the same time will probably (not guaranteed, but probably) take the graduate-student function because he's more comfortable around graduate students who are closer to his social level. The bars and restaurants around town will tend to cater towards the older graduate student crowd. Things like that.

At the end of the day, it's not absolute numbers that matter, but rather the percentages that matter. Harvard undergrads are actually a minority in terms of the entire Harvard student body. And social activities always tend to tilt towards the majority. It gets down to a basic truism in life - people tend to be more comfortable with those who are similar to them, and less comfortable with those who are different. Undergrads and grad-students are different.

So it's not really that undergrads become less motivated by the large numbers of graduate students. It's more like much of the "infrastructure", so to speak, tends to tilt towards the grad-student crowd, because that crowd is bigger. It's simply easier for a school like Princeton to establish an undergraduate social focus when it doesn't have a powerful counterviling grad-student social dynamic in place.

By Curly08 (Curly08) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 03:33 pm: Edit

I really don't understand where all of this graduate/HBS/social-scene talk comes from. You're argument would be analogous to me saying that teenagers really can't have a social life because parents dominate the household. And I think we all know that to be wrong. My roommate actually goes to graduate school parties, and has a great time, but those parties have no influence or affect on anything that goes on with the undergraduates. And Harvard doesn't really organize any "cool" social events anyway--everything is organized and run by the students.

Since we're on the topic of social scene, though, let me say a couple words about that. Harvard's social scene is definitely different and unique from both Princeton's and Yale's. If you like to party in terms of drinking yourself stupid every weekend, don't come to Harvard (that comes out a little condescending, but it's really not). That's not popular here at all. Don't get me wrong: people here do drink. It's just that practically no one here drinks to excess. In fact, most people at parties aren't drunk at all--they drink just enough to keep them "tipsy" and "feeling good." Yale and Princeton are definitely different from Harvard in that respect. There's definitely more to say on Harvard's social life, and if you ask me specifically, I'll gladly respond.