Click here to go to the NEW College Discussion Forum

DD is leaning toward Dartmouth ED. Her plan is to do the pre-req for pre-med, but at least minor in a non-science - French, history, government perhaps. (She may end up in law school or business or something completely different.) Does this work out easily at Dartmouth (The D-plan is attrractive, given her varied interests)? Are you active in the pre-med society? She would probably attend her in-state med school, is the pre-med committee overly selective to protect their admissions average, or do they do recommendations for most everyone with good scores/GPAs? Are they truly helpful in career planning, or just interested in the top few going to Harvard Med. Do you have any idea how many people apply senior year and how many do a gap year?
Please feel free to E-mail if you need to "protect the innocent" and remain anonymous.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Hi Cangel,

I am just a parent of an '08 who is going into Pre-med and this is what has transpired in our house.

During the month of June, they had to select a possible major to be set up with an academic advisor. If you are pre-med you will have 2 advisors; the pre-med advisor and the advisor for your prospective major (both whom she will meet with during orientation week). Once she indicated that she would be pre-med, she did sign up for the Nathan Smith Society Blitz list (Blitz-Dartmouth's e-mail system)which has given her a wealth of information.She also recieved a lot of information from WISP (women in science program) about internships for first year students during the school year and through the summer. She also looked through the job net @ http://www.dartmouth.edu/~seo/jobnet.html so see what kind of jobs are available on campus and there are opportunities to be a research assistant at the med school in your first year.

I have attached the link for the Pre-Health Curriculum from the First Year Office.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~frstyear/facadvise/health.html

Mind you, you cannot register for Chem 5 until you complete Math 3 (Calc or test out of it). However, based on the conversation that she has had with current pre-med students, she has decided not to test out because math 3 course covers so much more stuff than AP Calc bc and it is the pre-requisite for Math 8 which can be a killer if you are not some sort of math genius (plus if it is stuff that she already knows it can only increase her GPA in a course where the Meadian Grade for Math 3 is a B)you can look up a course and a section and see the median grade @ http://www.dartmouth.edu/~reg/courses/medians/index.html.

It is highly recommended that you take Chem 5/6 during your first year so that you can do O Chem in the second, as not to mess up you D-olan if you plan on being off campus.

Bio 15/16 is not given until the winter term. so somewhere she will be doubling up on the sciences because they only take 3 classes per term.

Back to the story:

We went to an Orientation event at the Dartmouth Club in NYC for admitted student from NYC. There was a panel discussion of 05's who spoke about their Dartmouth experience.

2 members of the panel are in the process of applying to Med School. One is a latin/ Classics major currently doing a summer internship @ Cornell University Med Center, (which he got through career services)and is a member of the nathan Smith Society, which he stated provides a lot of support on campus to the pre-meds. (This is person after her own heart because she is interested in majoring in classics and minoring in science where originally the situation was reversed)


The other is a Biochem/Molecular bio major who is doing research at Sloan Kettering (also set up through Career services).


They both seem to have really balanced the school work, research , community service, relaxation thing.

The rest of the panel consisted of an econ major-working at one of the brokerage houses this summer, a pre-law working for Legal Aid and a sociology major woking at PR firm. All have raved about the number of opportunites available through the office of career services which has thousands of jobs for leave term.

I'll let you know in a few weeks how this all plays out. I hope this helps

By Cangel (Cangel) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:19 pm: Edit

That's very helpful, Sybbie. As an MD parent, I'm trying to advise without overly influencing.
I think the pre-med office/advisory system/ society, whatever, is one of the most important parts of the college experience for anyone considering med school or other health profess school. I wouldn't say make or break, but for a person considering study abroad, or majoring outside of science, or just not sure about choices - the guidance a good office provides is invaluable. Just something as simple as publishing sample schedules, and giving pitfalls of courses as you outlined in really helpful.

I've stressed to her that it's not worth going to a place like Dartmouth or Amherst or Swat without taking advantage of the liberal arts resources - you may end up a Biochem major from expediency, but do a French minor, or history or (her Dad's favorite) - classics. How many chem/classics majors can Dartmouth produce?
In my med school class the acceptance rate for music majors was 100% - 2/2.

I'm anxious to hear how your daughter progresses this fall and winter, especially if DD ends up going ED and is successful! Good luck to your daughter, I know you are very proud!

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

I think that Dartmouth has everything which she was looking for, as I stated on the parent's thread she felt:

It's a real campus (like the ones you see on TV) quiet and grass under her feet, the people are so nice they are down right chipper, she can study abroad as a sophmore, people are smart but not flauting it, not cut throat competitive, not too big, but not too small, a little laid back, because she is laid back,they will appreciate, her water proof Uggs, as much as her LL bean duck shoes and her pink ubran outfitter duck shoes . Her camping trip consist of nature watercolor (the most hiking she has ever done was schlepping her stuff to the car in the mall)

We visted all of the Ivy's (and none of the others remotely appealed to her even though she has relatives and friends now in attendance at all of them) and loved Dartmouth upon her first visit and when she came back from her visit she knew that Dartmouth was where she wanted to go.

She really loves the D-plan applied to and got accepted into the East Wheelock cluster. It is her intention to really take it all in, even considering doing the 5k run for the Tucker Foundation during orientation week. To me the one thing that stands out is that they are an amazing group of kids, and every one seems truly happy to be there. Many people look at Dartmouth as the hidden Ivy or the school that you had "settle" in to attending but I beleive that it is more of a self selected group, that attends Dartmouth. They are truly some of the happiest people that I have encountered.

All the best
All the best.

By Slipper2002 (Slipper2002) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Dartmouth is the best and my friends have been incredibly successful in getting into top med-schools. Doing a thesis and establishing a relationship with a professor through research is a unique Dartmouth opportunity as well.

By Bischiavelli (Bischiavelli) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Hi Sibbie719, I am a Dartmouth 08' who is planning on going to a medical school. I would like to know your daughter, and exchange information about premed. Could you tell me her email address? Or, any other way I can contact her? Thank you.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Easr Wheelock, isn't that a special program with faculty mentors, a quiet dorm or something like that?

By Slipper2002 (Slipper2002) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Yeah, its totally not the social dorm by any stretch...

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 09:42 am: Edit

In respect to my daughter's privacy, I would suggest that you post your question to the '08 discussion group for the admitted students on Dartmouth's website, there you would get a load of responses from your cohorts.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:26 am: Edit

Hi Cangel,

Here is the link to East Wheelock Cluster

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~ewc/

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:50 am: Edit

Thanks, Sybbie, I'll pass it on to her. What a wonderful opportunity for your daughter. I must admit, one of my first reactions was how will she meet other freshmen if most of them are housed in all freshmen dorms, but 130 people are a fair sized group to start with, and the experiences she will have is probably the most important reason to go to a school with the resources of Dartmouth. Kronos Quartet would be coll - if have a few of their CDs!

By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit

Sybbie, thanks for posting your thoughts about Dartmouth, it makes me feel all the more enthused about S's choice. I want to thank you too for the facebook tip. I had only a vague idea what you were referring to, but my S did, and we enjoyed taking photos with his new digital camera to create his page. It also helped him begin to invest in the upcoming experience (he has been away all summer).

Have you heard that Math 8 is that difficult? It looked to us that S had to place out of Math 3, because of an AP score. He is good, but not a genius. He does not plan to major in math/science, but he really enjoyed Chemistry in HS and was going to take a chemistry class this first term ( as I understood it, he has to take the placement test for 6). He is not as far along in his future planning as you folks are.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 12:49 pm: Edit

HI Casey,

If you son hasn’t had the chance yet he should really log on to the discussion group @ http://2008.dartmouth.edu/

He will need the name and ID # that came in the congratulations e-mail and the other admissions packet.

Here is a break down of the math classes


3. Introduction to Calculus

04F, 05W: 9, 11

This course is the basic introduction to calculus. Students planning to specialize in mathematics, computer science, chemistry, physics, or engineering should elect this course in the fall term. Others may elect it in the winter.
A study of polynomials and rational functions leads to the introduction of the basic ideas of differential and integral calculus. The course also introduces exponential, logarithmic, and trigonometric functions. The emphasis throughout is on fundamental ideas and problem solving.
Mathematics 3 is open to all students who have had intermediate algebra and plane geometry. No knowledge of trigonometry is required. The lectures are supplemented by problem sessions. Dist: QDS.
Professors: Williams, Skandera (fall), Baumgartner, Shumakovitch (winter).


8. Calculus of Functions of One and Several Variables

04F: 11, 12, 2 05W: 10, 11 05S: 11

This course is a sequel to Mathematics 3 and is appropriate for students who have successfully completed either an AB or BC calculus curriculum in secondary school. Roughly, the first one-fourth of the course studies first and second order linear differential equations including applications and geometric interpretations. This frames the notion of antiderivatives, which the student has previously acquired, in a more general context. Included in the second quarter of the course are some traditional applications such as volumes of revolutions (shells), and Taylor approximations of functions.
The second half of the course studies scalar-valued functions of several variables. It begins with the study of vector geometry, equations of lines and planes, systems of linear equations, matrix algebra and row reduction. The rest of the course is spent studying the calculus of functions of several variables. Topics include limits and continuity, partial derivatives, tangent planes and differentials, directional derivative and gradient vectors, maximum and minimum values including the use of Lagrange multipliers.

Prerequisite: Mathematics 3 or equivalent. Dist: QDS. Professors: Pauls, Kiralis, Pomerance (fall), Trout, Skandera (winter), Baumgartner (spring).


Daughter says she willprobably take 3 & 4 instead of 3 & 8

4. Applications of Calculus to Medicine and Biology

04W: 10 05W: Arrange

This course will establish the relevance of calculus to medicine. It will develop mathematical tools extending the techniques of introductory calculus, including some matrix algebra and solution techniques for first order differential equations. These methods will be used to construct simple and elegant models of phenomena such as the mutation of HIV, spread of infectious disease, and biological disposition of drugs and inorganic toxins, enzyme kinetics and population growth.
Prerequisite: Mathematics 3. Note: This is a second-term calculus course, but it does not cover the same material as Mathematics 8, and does not serve as a prerequisite for Mathematics 13. Dist: QDS. Wallace.


I would also suggest that your son log on to the Dartmouth Student Assembly Course Guide. Located @ https://sa.dartmouth.edu/guide/

To get other students take on the course and the teacher (he would log in using his bltizmail account info.

From their web page:

Some of the best courses that are taken during college are those which we never intend. It is oftentimes one of those third courses that we sign up for at 3:59 on the day that class selections are due, because our friends recommend it to us as a class that they took and loved or that they heard one of their friends loved, that play a little part in the many things that change our lives througout college, and more importantly, change how we look at things. We hope with this course guide to use that idea to its fullest advantage, so that each and every student can use the entire community to find out more about those classes that they never thought they'd take. So look through the guide, see what students have to say. Don't just look at the courses you need for your major or to fulfill your distribs; take a look at one of the departments you never thought you'd be taking courses from, and you just might surprise yourself.

The Course Guide is meant to be used in conjunction with the ORC and other existing resources. It is by no means the bible in choosing courses, it is merely one more resource that gives a different perspective to think about when choosing classes: that of your peers.
In addition, we strongly encourage you to write reviews of the courses you have taken. We fully appreciate your input and hope you find this site useful. You are not logged in. You must log in with your blitzmail (DND) name and password to use this service.

This is to verify that each student can review each course only once. All reviews and searches are completely anonymous.


He even be interested in Chem 10 (Chem Honors for 1st year students) which is the equivalent of Chem 5/6 (he can take the placement test during orientation week)

10. Honors First-Year General Chemistry
03F, 04F: 10; Laboratory W or Th 2:00-6:00 p.m.
Chemistry 10 is a general chemistry course for students with a strong background in chemistry and mathematics who may have an interest in majoring in the sciences. The course will cover selected general chemistry topics important for higher level chemistry courses. These include thermodynamics, reaction kinetics, quantum mechanics, and bonding. Laboratory work will emphasize physico-chemical measurements and quantitative analysis.

Chemistry 10 is open only to first-year students and enrollment is limited. Admission is by satisfactory performance on a general chemistry proficiency test given during Orientation. Adequate mathematics preparation, equivalent to Mathematics 3, is also required. Chemistry 10 is offered in the fall term and is the prerequisite equivalent to Chemistry 5/6. Students who successfully complete Chemistry 10 will also be granted credit for Chemistry 5, if they have not already been granted such credit.
Prerequisite: Satisfactory performance on the general chemistry proficiency test and credit for Mathematics 3 or equivalent. Supplemental course fee required. Dist: SLA.


Hope this helps.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Just curious Sybbie, will your daughter try for one of the honors sciences - chem or biology - in order to free up space in her schedule?

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 02:27 pm: Edit

She has been bouncing it around (originally applied as a chem major so she maybe leaning toward taking the placement test for chem 10). She wants to take Bio 2 which is an additional course recommended for Pre-med however it is only given in the fall. She is no longer planning to major in the sciences so the priority to enroll in classes for science majors is no longer there.

Bio 2 is only offered in the fall, which will still allow her to complete Bio 15/16 her first year.

2. Human Biology 04F: 11

A course designed to help students (biologists and non-biologists) understand the biological basis of human health and disease. The course will emphasize the fundamental aspects of biochemistry, genetics, cell and molecular biology, physiology, anatomy, reproductive biology, and function of various organs as they relate to humans. Particular emphasis will be placed on specific topics in human health and disease and how these issues affect us all individually in our own health and collectively in our international society.

Open to all students without prerequisite. Dist: SCI. Witters.


She said that she will talk to the first year Dean (who will be the advisor to the EW freshmen) and the Pre-med Dean during orientation about what the best course of action that will allow her to gain the breadth of the courses she needs for the MCATS and to do well in those courses.

Her prioroity is not to accelerate her schedule at the expense of not having the depth and because she is going to use the whole 4 ears (not looking to finish early).

Right now her main goal is to do a schedule that will allow her to take classics in Greece in the spring of 05 (only given in Odd # years).
31. Ancient Literature and History: Study Abroad
03F: D.F.S.P. (Italy) 05S: D.F.S.P. (Greece)

Credit for this course is awarded to students who have successfully completed the work of the Dartmouth Foreign Study Program in Greece or Italy.

Prerequisite: membership in the Foreign Study Program. Dist: PHR; WCult: EU.

SHe realizes that doing this she will have to double up on the sciences but she is okay with that and will probably take a science during sophmore summer.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 03:06 pm: Edit

So she's planning a year "off" if she goes on to med school (MCAT as a senior rather than end of junior year)? That seems to be very popular these days - that makes me sound like an old codger!

One of the problems that I have understanding these elite liberal arts colleges vs my own experience pre-med at NoName State U, is the idea of classes or credits vs hours. It just doesn't seem like they take enough classes - DH and I were adding up how many courses we took as undergrads, and even considering we both started only an hour or 2 short of soph standing, we took 36-38 classes, maybe 40 - we didn't pay by the hour unless you took less than a full load. Things change

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 04:00 pm: Edit

They need 35 classes to graduate. they take 3 classes per term. they can take 4

She is working her D-plan that she will be off one term (fall 2005 to take classics in Greece) You can study abroad beginning sophmore year.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~interviewers/useful/d_plan.html

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 05:36 pm: Edit

the flexibility of the D-plan, after she thought it through, is the chief selling point of Dartmouth for her.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 08:22 am: Edit

Sybbie, my daughter is visiting Dartmouth in Oct for an interview - I would like her to meet your daughter, roommate, a friend or 2 she could scrounge up for dinner - if this is something she would or could do, please E-mail me.

By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Sybbie, thanks for the information. It has been very helpful.

By Wisconsinguy (Wisconsinguy) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 04:58 pm: Edit

I'd recommend taking Bio 19, the honors bio course for freshmen, in the fall. In my opinion, it's a better class than Chem 10. A small environment for a bio intro course (40 students max, with 10-student lab sections). Prof. Smith's class is tough (a friend once referred to it as bio for masochists--straight up and no holds barred) but the rewards are bountiful--close student/professor interaction, the best lab TAs, by far the best equipment and the most advanced lab techniques.

You have to test into it (last year, about 150 students vied for 40 spots), and the test is quite difficult: last year, if I remember correctly you had to get a 31/65 to get into the class.

The second recommendation I'd have is to always have a backup plan--follow your dreams, but be tempered with reality. An informal poll among my friends (almost all of whom were pre-med coming into freshman year) revealed that over half had dropped pre-med by the end of their freshman year. So always keep a backup plan.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Hi Wisconsin,

How have you been, we haven't heard from you all summer. You must have been really busy. Since you are a bio person your feedback is truly welcomed. I heard you did some research on campus this summer.

What's your take on the math classes?

By Variance173 (Variance173) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:45 pm: Edit

hey wisconsinguy...i'm a Dartmouth 08, and I too am interested in taking bio 19 this fall. How would you recommend one prepare for this test? Exactly what kind of material is on the test? Is it tricky stuff or just straightforward factual questions? I would appreciate any other input you have about bio 19 and the placement test. thanks very much.

By Variance173 (Variance173) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:46 pm: Edit

oh one more thing wisconsinguy...i'm aso interested in chem 10. what do you think of taking both chem 10 and bio 19 in the same term? would it be too difficult? thanks again.

By Wisconsinguy (Wisconsinguy) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Sybbie, you're really too kind. My experience with bio will be much deeper as of this fall.

You could say I've been busy, but not doing research on campus. Sixty to seventy hours a week at a metals plant to pay the bills (I'm going to be on for six straight terms starting this fall, so it's my last real chance to earn money). I start researching with a professor hopefully this fall or winter. Anywho...

Math classes, I don't particularly like--I'm not a calculus person, more of a statistics person. I'm taking Bio 72 as my stats class (to keep the med school possibility open). The math department has some good professors, but they are more in the upper level courses. The intro courses have decent profs in them, but I'd avoid them if possible--maybe that's because I don't like calc.

Variance,
the Bio 19 test is fairly straightforward, mostly factual, very little interpretation. It just covers a wide range of biological topics, some fairly in depth. As for preparation, I suppose you could prepare, but most people I know didn't. If you were to prepare, just do a broad survey of cell biology topics, with some basics and examples in all major subfields. I'm sorry but I really shouldn't give you more than that.

Chem 10 and Bio 19 can be taken in the same term. To be sure, it's very difficult, and you'll be studying quite a bit, but I know a few who have done it.

Any more questions, I usually lurk once every day or two...just ask.

By Variance173 (Variance173) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 03:46 pm: Edit

thanks for replying winsconsin...would you recommend doin chem 10 and bio 19 at the same time tho? i'm not even sure if i would get into chem 10, but what about, say, taking chem 6 with bio 19? in your opinion, would it be safe to take such a courseload during the transition phase? thanks.

By Wisconsinguy (Wisconsinguy) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 07:21 pm: Edit

You can't take Chem 6 with Bio 19. Bio 19 is only offered fall term, while Chem 6 is only offered spring term.

As to the Chem 10/Bio 19 combo, like I said it has been done, but it's very tough. I don't know your abilities, so I can't say whether you can or can't.