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Hey everyone, I'm gonna be a senior in high school and am considering Princeton, among other schools. What sort of bad stuff is there to say about Princeton? I hear all sorts of good stuff, like in pamphlets, tours, etc. I wanna hear some of the negative things experienced first hand by Princeton students. So what bad things are there to say of good ol' Princeton?

-This includes academics, social life/parties, extra-curriculars, etc.

By Pentheselia (Pentheselia) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Eating clubs and exams after break are the big ones.

By Deerhunter (Deerhunter) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit

The cons? Have you ever read "This Side of Paradise?"

Well, if you attend Princeton, you shall be forced to conform to its ancient New England mores, and in so doing, lose all remaining traces of your individuality, if there were any existing at the outset.

Other than that...

By Adirtypanda (Adirtypanda) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 11:36 pm: Edit

What's with the exams after breaks. That's been a problem at Princeton for years. It's so easy to fix. Why do they keep it up?

By G_Li (G_Li) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

One word: TRADITION.

Quite important at Princeton.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 09:44 am: Edit

They talk regularly about changing the exam schedule. However, although it does make it a bit harder to connect with hs friends who have exams before Christmas, many students really like the longer first semester and don't want it changed. They say they feel less rushed as a result. They do have plenty of breaks -- a week off in late October that nobody else gets, then winter break, then intersession. Who knows whether the schedule will change, but it's probably not a dealbreaker for a student who wants to attend.

By Blueberrypie (Blueberrypie) on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Actually, it made a big difference to me when deciding between schools. I hated that random week you get in October to go home - you're finally getting into a routine and they make you leave? And I didn't want to study over breaks. Classes are curved, and if other people study, you have to as well to keep up. You go through the entire year without getting an actual break because you always have exams hanging over your head.

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:26 am: Edit

That there is no direct express shuttle to NYC

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Blueberrypie, I just don't think you wanted to go to Princeton, which is fine! But trust me, many of the students spend their breaks going to the Caribbean, playing with their sports team in another country, or touring nationally or internationally with their performing arts group. They do not all seem to feel they "always have exams hanging over" their heads. The one time that many of them do choose to miss out on a holiday is spring break of their senior year, when most of them are holed up in the library working on their thesis.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Obviously when you're talking about a place as eminent as Princeton, then any 'cons' are only relative ones. Princeton is indeed arguably the best place to get an undergraduate education.

But since you asked, there are a few 'relative cons' of Princeton. For example, while Princeton's emphasis on undergraduate education is obviously stellar, some people feel that it's still not intimate enough, and therefore would prefer a top LAC like Williams or Amherst. There are some people who just don't like bad weather and would rather be at Stanford. Some people want to get the most rigorous and deepest technical education available and thus would be happier at MIT or Caltech. Then of course you're going to have those jokers around campus who wanted to go to Harvard but didn't get in and they spend their whole time at P'ton pissed off.

But all in all, I think that's just a matter of shallow nitpicking. It's difficult to find a lot of bad things to say about the Princeton undergraduate program. If there's an undergraduate program that all of the national universities should strive to emulate, it would be Princeton's

By Deerhunter (Deerhunter) on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 11:30 pm: Edit

"indeed arguably"

Hmm...

By Starryeyedgirl (Starryeyedgirl) on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 01:58 am: Edit

I don't see how not having a direct tram to NYC is a con, it takes about the same time to drive there as it does to take the train, even with the transfer. Out of curiosity, do you go to Princeton, Foreigngrad?

cons: the exam thing that people said, the weather, and the compulsory independent work. i don't think the eating clubs are that bad, they can help you find your niche.

By Pat57575 (Pat57575) on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Ironic that you mention "This Side of Paradise" DeerHunter... I'm reading that one right now, and I'm right in the middle of Amory's Princeton days. It's a vivid account of the struggles of a well educated egotist with conventionalism, romance, "worldly success", and the social caste, that some of you may be able to relate to. I'm amazed how much I can. If you enjoyed Gatsby at all, this is probably your cup of tea. Highly recommended, especially for you future Tigers.

By Adirtypanda (Adirtypanda) on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Lot's of things have changed at Princeton since 1914....

By Sakky (Sakky) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Deerhunter, in your last post, what are you trying to say?

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 03:34 am: Edit

Starryeyedgirl,

I guess you missed the irony in my post. The dinky station right on the periphery of campus is as perfect a connection to the big cities as anyone without a car might wish it. No wonder why Pricneton is suited as a residential commuter town - the infrastructure is definitely there. Believe it or not - I not only know the place quite well, I also loved it!


Sakky,

LOL as for your remark "Then of course you're going to have those jokers around campus who wanted to go to Harvard but didn't get in and they spend their whole time at P'ton pissed off." You're such a funny dude! Let's put some numbers to it: about 50% of a Pton class are ED admits, so the other half problably fits your description . Of course NONE of the Harvard students faces a similar fate.... But then a significant minority of those unhappy P students get belessed with H grad school admissions and they can overcome the trauma endured as high school students and make their family proud at last...

By H_Thealogian (H_Thealogian) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Ok, I don't go to Princeton. My partner does. He says that he likes the break in October, because he can come home (we live in NC) and work on projects and paintings he's planned without any interuptions from friends. I'm a writer, so I know what he means. We're a quiet couple.
But anyway, he's a grad student there, and while he's working on his thesis, he does say that all the vacations (Spring Break, Christmas, ect) students do hang out and still manage to study. It keeps them balanced.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Foreigngrad, I never said that a lot of Princeton guys are there because they wanted to go to Harvard. But I am saying that there are some of them. The OP asked for problems, any problems, with Princeton, and that's one of them, although I'd be the first to admit that it's a relatively minor problem. Basically, when you're talking about a place like Princeton, it's tough to find problems, although if you search hard enough, you'll find them.

And the simple fact is, there really are some Princeton guys who really wanted to go to Harvard but couldn't get in, but less of the reverse -there are less Harvard guys actually wanted to go to Princeton but couldn't get in. Note, I didn't say that there weren't any, I just said there were less. It's the same problem that afflicts Berkeley students vis-a-vis Stanford, and UCLA students vis-a-vis Berkeley, but to a lesser degree.

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit

"... although if you search hard enough, you'll find them"

Go ahead, that was indeed what the OP asked for (and nobody in this thread will cry if you find something).

As for (significantly) "more" turned down H aspirants at P than vice versa (and only that would be worth mentioning as a - relatively speaking - "con") I am curious to learn more about your quantitative reasoning (Sakky: "the simple fact is..."). At least I am not aware of those 2 schools publishing how many of their enrolled got hosed by the other one (and even if they did, that would not necessarily allow inferences on the number of those being at the place of their 2nd choice).

What you had in mind possibly is that H represents first choice more often than any other school among the potentially qualified applicant pool (see Hoxby et al.). From there however it is a very long shot to attempt inferences on the percentage of unhappy 2nd choice settlers (at either school, btw.). Please note that other variables factor in here as well, e.g. class size! With H's class being about 40-50% bigger than P's you would actually expect an inverse effect in this respect (why I would be cautious to argue with absolute numbers of students rather than with percentages as for that), given (again relatively speaking) not soooo different yield rates (as proxy for attractiveness) between the 2.

So, if you have substantive facts to back up your claim, please enlighten us.

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

"... although if you search hard enough, you'll find them"

Go ahead, that was indeed what the OP asked for (and nobody in this thread will cry if you find something).

As for (significantly) "more" turned down H aspirants at P than vice versa (and only that would be worth mentioning as a - relatively speaking - "con") I am curious to learn more about your quantitative reasoning (Sakky: "the simple fact is..."). At least I am not aware of those 2 schools publishing how many of their enrolled got hosed by the other one (and even if they did, that would not necessarily allow inferences on the number of those being at the place of their 2nd choice).

What you had in mind possibly is that H represents first choice more often than any other school among the potentially qualified applicant pool (see Hoxby et al.). From there however it is a very long shot to attempt inferences on the percentage of unhappy 2nd choice settlers (at either school, btw.). Please note that other variables factor in here as well, e.g. class size! With H's class being about 40-50% bigger than P's you would actually expect an inverse effect in this respect (why I would be cautious to argue with absolute numbers of students rather than with percentages as for that), given (again relatively speaking) not soooo different yield rates (as proxy for attractiveness) between the 2.

So, if you have substantive facts to back up your claim, please enlighten us.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Come now foreigngrad, seriously. Are you saying that you don't find it entirely reasonable that there are more Princeton students, as a percentage, who are there because it was there 2nd choice school, then there are Harvard students doing the same?

You said it youself, according to Hoxby, H represents first choice more often than any other school among the potentially qualified pool. Well, what do you think happens to those H candidates who don't make it? Some, obviously, wind up at Princeton. This can be further inferred from yield rates: H's yield rate is higher than P's yield rate. Unless you argue that the applicant pools do not overlap to a significant degree (and I think we would both agree that they do), then that must mean that H is probably 'stealing' more P students than vice versa.

Now do I submit this as a statistical proof? I do not. I agree with you, I don't have all the information to do that because the schools won't publish it (and I really like how you covered your bases when you said that even if I did run across that information, it still may not prove my case). But statistical proofs are not the point, are they? We argued about this before on another thread - statistical proofs are too high of a standard of proof for the informal atmosphere of CC. After all, have you statistically proven each and every assertion you've ever made on CC? I doubt it. When you don't have sufficient data to prove something, that doesn't mean that you can't operate on probabilities. So now let me revise my statements - it is probably true that as a percentage of their student bodies, there are more Princeton students who would rather be at Harvard than vice versa.

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 03:00 pm: Edit

"But statistical proofs are not the point, are they? We argued about this before on another thread - statistical proofs are too high of a standard of proof for the informal atmosphere of CC."

In other words, you don't know, thank you. statistical proofs may be "too high of a standard" for some people on this board (as was the Hoxby paper), but their advantage is they are something to be taken as a proof. If anonymous posters state that it is "simple fact" that is mere rhetoric if not backed up. I am repeating something I said earlier: if at HYPS or M you argue like that, you flunk big time.

Btw, somebody else, as I now noticed, provided the link to a Crimson article (which I was not aware of - the Yale chill thing) that EXACTLY mirrored my arguments that rentention (or graduation) rates are NO proper indicator for what you had taken them to be (degree of "happiness") - wrong thread here to take this up. So when you allude to former discussions, let us keep in mind that YOU had a problem there with objective 3rd source evidence (I am talking about the national health poll) as you have it here.

I am not wining, if you take Pton apart for some of its real (relative or absolute) weaknesses, as the "how mean to bash Harvard fraction" in the other thread did, when I provided the URLs of multiple Harvard publications to support my arguments. But I am laughing when people replace gut feeling speculation with factual arguments. I find this quite amusing.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Believe it or not, Sakky, many students apply to Princeton precisely because the ways in which it is different from Harvard. These are both schools that offer enormous opportunities, but they're actually quite different. I'm thinking of the liberal arts college feel at Princeton, the tremendous undergrad emphasis, the smaller class size, the campus culture that frowns on intellectual arrogance, the peaceful campus, the lively social scene, etc. In fact, one complaint I hear from various quarters as Princeton's administration moves to increase class size and make certain changes in campus life is, "We don't want Princeton to turn into Harvard."

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 03:42 pm: Edit

To the matter itself:

"but less of the reverse -there are less Harvard guys actually wanted to go to Princeton but couldn't get in" (Sakky's theory)

"less guys" I understood to mean "less people", not percentages, therefore I cautioned:

"With H's class being about 40-50% bigger than P's you would actually expect an inverse effect in this respect" (foreigngrad's objection)

You seemingly did not get that, stating:
"and I really like how you covered your bases when you said that even if I did run across that information, it still may not prove my case" (Sakky's suspicion)

Therefore let me argue with real '08 numbers (I am referring you to my database - sources are indicated there under the ED policy thread, this forum):

Let us overlook the early admits, because in Pton's case their yield is by definition close to 100%, and in H's case it is presumably > 90%- or at least close to 90%- (81,3% being the average for H). About 900 students at H were regular admits, while 600 at Pton were. This exactly proves my point: EVEN IF (which we lack the data to confirm, I'll return to Hoxby in a second) Princeton percentagewise had 50% more frustrated 2nd choice settlers than H, then this would still be the same absolute number at both colleges. Mark that class size - inter alia - factors in here, as I said.

Seemingly you were smart enough to change your argument to relative levels then:
"So now let me revise my statements - it is probably true that as a percentage of their student bodies, there are more Princeton students who would rather be at Harvard than vice versa." (Sakky's revised argument).

Now here, I am following you, this is simply the emulation of Hoxby's paper, whereby on an attractiveness scale H would have an index of 100 and Pton of 91 (or similar, we wrote it down somewhere here). But in the original context of this discussion, this difference is absolutely minor even on the percentage level: according to your own argumentation, the rate of such unsatisfied students, which you yourself consider only a minor part of half of the class - see my joke (Sakky, answering my joke: "I never said that a lot of Princeton guys are there because they wanted to go to Harvard. But I am saying that there are some of them.")

Ok, so now we established that your inherent argument based on your Hoxby recollection was that while at Pton "not a lot" of (enrolled) students are frustrated Harvard rejects, the corresponding group at Harvard of Pton rejects was PERCENTAGEWISE by the order of 10% smaller. (The class size argument I brought up shows that in ABSOLUTE terms the opposite would have to be inferred) Big deal!

The question of this thread was: What are the cons of Pton? Your assumed percentage difference applied on an (by your own estimate) tiny subpopulation certainly is not even a siginificant RELATIVE "find". Sorry!

By Jarahul106 (Jarahul106) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 01:34 am: Edit

ummmmmm ok, i guess thats enough about harvard applicants who go to princeton as #2......on to OTHER cons? are there any negative social aspects? like maybe eating clubs? and maybe its a wrong label, but from what ive heard princeton has a reputation as like the conservative ivy, like the preppy, not-laid-back ivy of the bunch. can someone assess the validity of this statement? i want an objective analysis, analyzing how the statement is true, and how it isnt true.

thanks

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Jarahul,

somebody here cunningly said that schools are like personalities and that fit has to do with personal preferences. the points you raised have to be looked at from this angle:

1. take eating clubs, of which several Crimson articles (like this one: http://www.thecrimson.com/fmarchives/fm_04_06_2000/article8H.html) said they were in fact less "exclusive" than the Final Clubs at H:

Fact is that ca. 70-75% of all juniors and seniors eat there and fact also is that most (although not all) partying goes on in the clubs, which implies that the clubs are somehow a basic feature of Princeton, even though they are not instituions of the university proper. Anybody having a problem with that - for whatever reason - will have to see it as a "con" ultimately of Pton college life. I am not saying you must have an issue with it (a recent poll among all students, including those not belonging to clubs found that about a third dislikes the fact that about half of the clubs are selective - vs. random draw - at that http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2003/11/10/news/9051.shtml), but if you do, it may be a point.

2. "conservative" might be a real prejudice, if you are thinking of a lack of critical political activism, although in style I would think most Ivies permeate conservative ideals as any richly endowed environments do. So does Pton in a way. Moreover, Princeton as a town would be the wrong place to reunite with trade unions and workers if that is what you had in mind as the opposite of "conservatism".

3. "not-laid-back" is probably true, because people tend to be intense about their work. Possibly Stanford is the most "laid-back" among the top schools and possibly Pton is the least.

Read this US news article to find some more refined aspects:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/articles/brief/04princeton_brief.php

By Newyorker06 (Newyorker06) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:34 am: Edit

I'd say Princeton is definitely the most laid back of the big three, for better or worse. It's got mroe of a southern feel about it than H and Y and, historically, a less intense student body.

By Jarahul106 (Jarahul106) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit

aight thanks foreigngrad. i didnt really mean like politically conservative, i meant like socially, i dunno, i think i meant "not-laid-back" once again. Politically, whatever. Although I lean left a little, its all good. my query of the eating clubs was pretty arbitrary, ive just like heard from hear and there that like people criticize the eating clubs for whatever reason it might be, so i asked to clarify. thanks

By Kayoshin (Kayoshin) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:00 pm: Edit

I'm gonna be a senior this coming year as well. THis question might seem dumb, but i dont want to assume (this is a strange world after all): During the breaks (such as the October one), are you forced to leave school, or can you stay on at the dorms as always?

So far, all the people who posted seemed to have left the school during the breaks, so i was just making sure ^_^;;