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Any of you super lucky admits going to attend another school? for what reasons?

By Ilovethe80s (Ilovethe80s) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 06:50 pm: Edit

trying to decide between pton and harvard

By Mitwannabe (Mitwannabe) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 07:01 pm: Edit

pton vs hvd vs mit

By Papalemming (Papalemming) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Considering your nickname, I think you should attend MIT. Hehe.

By Bmilder (Bmilder) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit

My choices are Princeton, Yale, and Harvard. I'll visit all 3.

By Blueberrypie (Blueberrypie) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Princeton or Yale = impossible choice

By Raspberries (Raspberries) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit

dartmouth v. uva (scholarship) v. yale v. princeton v. duke
preferance in that order, so proabably not princeton

By Qwert271 (Qwert271) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

I like your name raspberries.

By Spacecadet (Spacecadet) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Hey, I was accepted on Friday...I couldn't believe it. However, I've also been accepted at NYU, McGill University and Oberlin(with a scholarship money offer). I know the choice seems obvious, but I'm worried as how attending Princeton will shape my ultimate personal goal of becoming a jazz musician/educator. This is why it is so incredibly difficult for me to choose. Additionally, I've lived in Princeton for half my life, and to answer the question of the poster, there isn't too much to do and it can be repetitive (however, consider the fact that Princeton is an hour between New York and Philly) I was wondering if anyone who sees this post and is familiar with Princeton's music program as a whole could give me any advice...I know Princeton doesn't have the most developed jazz program but it was an incredible honor for me to be accepted. Thanks for any help.

By Piglette (Piglette) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:16 am: Edit

Spacecadet :

For music: Oberlin, HANDS DOWN !

With a scholarship -- WOW !!!! -- tant mieux!!!

You lucky ducky!

-- Piglette

By Xtrition (Xtrition) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:28 am: Edit

does anyone have any concrete reason to accept princeton over harvard or the other way around?
i'm probably an engineering major so i don't know what to do

By Rogerevans (Rogerevans) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit

If strength of department in your major is a "concrete reason," Princeton engineering second only to Cornell's in Ivies, so I'd go to Princeton over Harvard.

By Xtrition (Xtrition) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:36 am: Edit

apart from the 'major' factor, what would be a reason to accept one over the other. I am not able to make a campus visit so any thing would be great

By Vecter (Vecter) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:44 am: Edit

what mitwannabe said

By Flashbackfl (Flashbackfl) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Yes, please, anyone, Princeton vs. Harvard???

By Piglette (Piglette) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Harvard.

By Wickedsmaht (Wickedsmaht) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Harvard

By Newyorker06 (Newyorker06) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Harvard

By Spacechic20 (Spacechic20) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Princeton

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 08:14 pm: Edit

For undergrad, Princeton EASILY.

By Jrc007 (Jrc007) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Princeton

By Didiosyncracy (Didiosyncracy) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Does anyone know if either Princeton or Harvard is better for government/politics/international relations? I've gotten into Princeton and am on the waiting list at Harvard. I can't decide whether or not to stay on the waitlist, however, since I've already gotten into the (tied) best college in the country, and I might be affording someone else a spot...

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:07 pm: Edit

You can major in the Woodrow Wilson school of Int Relations. It's quite a good school and many sophomores apply there.

By Bluestardust (Bluestardust) on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 04:32 pm: Edit

MIT vs. Princeton

i think i want to do engineering but i'm not sure. i might do physics or astronomy. i know princeton has a good astrophysics dept but i dont know much about astronomy at mit. any thoughts or suggestions?

By Johnmayerfan (Johnmayerfan) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit

2 weeks left, anyone wanna go somewhere else?

By Deferreddude (Deferreddude) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 02:31 pm: Edit

After much debate, Stanford.

By Vecter (Vecter) on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

i'm w/mitwannabe

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Harvard

By Ticklemepink (Ticklemepink) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Spacecadet-

I get your point. Brooke Shields went to Princeton even though she went on this Hollywood career *sighs* But you know what? Try Princeton!

I don't know if that's the way I'm feeling. I've lived around the area for abou 13 years too (Born and raised ). After spending 5 years in Rochester, I miss Princeton already! My brother has it worse- he WANTS to go Princeton (My parents and I believe that it's only because his friends are there, but apparently my brother hasn't really figured out that his friends might want to go somewhere else!). Palmer Square's such a cute place I think that after you've spent some time away from suuarban/rural area into an urban/suburbs, then you realize how much you miss that little country/town feel. That is why I chose Smith and Northampton- to bring that feeling back.

I'd apply to Princeton but don't have the numbers. Maybe in 2006 for my junior year... depends on my grades and attachment to Smith! haha.

Good luck. Maybe I'm just more a country girl!

By Blueberrypie (Blueberrypie) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Yale vs. Princeton, for an electrical engineering major who doesn't want to be an engineer, but instead go to business or law school.

By Filmnerd1986 (Filmnerd1986) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 07:33 pm: Edit

I'm torn between the following schools:

Princeton
Harvard
Yale
Penn
Brown
Dartmouth
Columbia

i got rejected from Cornell though, those bastards. Help me choose!

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Filmnerd, if you are in fact interested in film as your sn indicates, I suggest Yale. It has a renowned film-studies department and a strong student film-making culture. Harvard also has a good film-studies/film-making program. Prin, on the other hand, has only a handful of film-related classes within the visual arts department and has by no means a solid core of student film-makers. I'm interested in film as well and applied to Yale early for its strength in this field as well as for it's ungraduate environment of intimacy and intellectuallism. Harvard's environment lacks the intimacy while Prin's, with its frat-like eating clubs, lacks the intellectualism (for all those princeton defenders out there, prin's anti-intellectualism is not an off-base and unfounded reputation but an undisputed fact that the administration acknowledges as a pressing problem). Unfortuneately, Yale, unlike Prin and Harv, did not see it fit to accept me. Oh well, Harvard '08!

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

"lacks the intellectualism (for all those princeton defenders out there, prin's anti-intellectualism is not an off-base and unfounded reputation but an undisputed fact that the administration acknowledges as a pressing problem)."

I hope you visited. Princeton's students are anything but anti-intellectuals. Thank goodness no current students actually visit this place.

Anyways, go H or Y for film studies. I recommend Y. If you like NYC, Columbia wouldn't be bad too. Just makes sure you overnight at all these schools with a student host.

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit

mzhang, you can't argue with the prince; there have been numerous articles and op-eds about the prevailing spirit of anti-intellectualism...and yes i have visited, and yes the eating club's, which are nothing more than glorified fraternities, make its undergrad environment less intellectual than harv and yale - the prin administration admits this is a problem; so this is not really up for dispute.

By Blueberrypie (Blueberrypie) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Can you post any of the links to those articles here?

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Mzhang, I'm really not making this stuff up, nor is it an example of an undeserved reputation. Here's an except from an article:
He said Princeton has a more prominent "jock culture." At Yale University — where he taught before coming to Princeton 12 years ago — academically-minded students set the tone of the student body, he said.

There are also significant differences between the predominant social outlets at Princeton and at Yale, where students generally favor intimate room parties to the anonymity of the 'Street' scene.

Yali Lewis '05, who transferred to Yale from Princeton last year, said Yale's calmer and more personal social scene fosters casual conversations that are generally more "intellectual" in nature.

History professor Anthony Grafton, who participated in the initial intellectualism forum in the Frist Campus Center with professors John Fleming GS '63 and Patrick Deneen, is among the many who believe the academic climate on campus needs improvement.

"Princeton is a less intellectual place than it ought to be," he said.

Fleming agreed, summarizing his view of the problem: "A lot of . . . students [are] living intellectual lives that are unadventurous and confined and constrained."

At Princeton, the precept system has borne the brunt of recent criticisms. Almost everyone has encountered a classroom filled with "bright" students who remain silent, reluctant to participate in class discussion. Deneen said he had observed an "absence of a robust willingness to talk during preceptorials."

Many students and faculty have also questioned the effectiveness of graduate student preceptors, frustrated that some do not speak English well enough to communicate their subject matter clearly. Grafton also questioned their "moral authority" to command undergraduate respect, recalling the original system of professor-run precepts.

Although some problems with the intellectual environment may be structural in origin, national trends also influence the student body.

President Tilghman said that while she thinks many students live deeply intellectual lives, their tendency to overschedule often leaves them with little to no free time.

"Over the last 25 years . . . there's been an intensification of this, the level of competitiveness, the sense that to succeed, one has to be focused in on building the resume every moment of the day," she said. She also noted the rise in stress-related visits to the McCosh Health Center.

Fleming noticed a similar trend. "Students do work very hard," he said, "in many cases too hard, in many cases with the wrong ethic, which is an achievement ethic rather than a self-development or learning ethic."


when I typed "anti-intellectualism" in the last two years of prince archives, I got 254 hits. Clearly this is not a problem that the university is letting go unaddressed. But it is, nonetheless, a problem.
here are the links to a few of them:
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2002/11/26/news/6480.shtml
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2002/10/14/news/5718.shtml
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2002/10/02/news/5535.shtml

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

There appears to be EXTENSIVE debate over the validity of "anti-intellectualism" at Princeton.

However, I do not understand one of the problems. Apparently precepts, small sections led by grad students, are not as effective as professor precepts. How does this differ at other schools that make use of TA's for their sections?

Furthermore, few comparisons are drawn between Princeton and other schools. If princeton takes applicants from the standard HYPS pool, is it that the students who matriculate to Princeton are anti-intellectual by nature, or is it a problem that is present at other schools but remains unaddressed? The word "anti-intellectualism" comes up numerous times through a search because it was used first in a report and caused extensive debate over the validity of the report's comment.

But most of all, I remain interested in how other schools compare. Besides the person who says that Yale parties were *somewhat* more "intellectual(?)" I can't find any other comparisons. The Atlantic Monthly article citing the "organization student" is citing a student that exists at all the top colleges.

Anyways, this is an interesting problem, but it is not proven to be Princeton-specific. I wonder why the other schools have not even addressed this at all.

EDIT: after reading all the articles, this debate is EXTENSIVE. No point has been reached - many students have raised protest at the report calling them "anti-intellectual." Column writers initially bashing Princeton for its faults have retracted some statements, others have relented, and some continue to argue that it is a problem. Anyways, if you're using this as the reason to go to Harvard, keep in mind that there are these sorts of problems at Harvard too. Princeton has done much to address this - the street's influence has been steadily waning as various eating clubs are on the verge of shutting down due to low membership, the university sponsors a host of "intellectual" events, and more and more precepts are now being professor taught - that means grad students are being used much less compared to other universities. Anyways, citing film studies is a valid advantage that Harvard has over Princeton. Citing this "anti-intellectualism" thing is not - it certainly does not appear to be a Princeton-specific problem, and the debate it inspired in 2002 showed that the student body was anything but anti-intellectual.

Princeton has been quite forward looking in the past five years. The administration under Tilghman and the Prince have not shied away from speaking openly on potential problems at Princeton. With a new admissions dean and a good plan for change, I actually look forward to what the coming years may bring.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Julie, if you had gone Yale you would have discovered that the University subsidizes the kegs for parties in the residential college quads. There is no shortage of partying at Yale. (Have you read Joe College?) And students at H and Y are surely just as enthusiastic about resume-building as are their peers at Princeton. That's why graduates of all three schools are so successful.

If a student is intellectually inclined, he or she will not lack for kindred spirits at Princeton. I have seen this with my own eyes. I have read many articles in the Prince along the lines of the ones you cite, as well as many others in the Prince where students had the same response to those anti-intellectual allegations as they do to the current alarmist pronouncements over grade inflation -- that they're overblown. I will say that I see a lack of intellectual arrogance or showboating on the Princeton campus, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

It's too bad that President Tilghman sees Princetonians' enthusiasm for putting their interests into action as anti-intellectual. This busyness seems to characterize overachievers of your generation. On the Harvard admissions website there is a well-publicized essay from the admissions office called "Time Out or Burn Out: http://adm-is.fas.harvard.edu/timeoff.htm. First-year students at Harvard a couple of years back received a letter from the freshman dean imploring them not too join too many organizations or feel the need to start new clubs all the time. It's not just Princeton.

And the eating clubs, though far from perfect, are not glorified fraternities; they are coed. In fact, for that reason earlier this year The Crimson described them as "progressive" compared to Harvard's finals clubs.

Best of luck at Harvard. It's great you've made the right choice for you, and I'm sure you will have all sorts of wonderful experiences there. No need to bash Princeton on your way to Cambridge.

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

mzhang - I never said that the prob was Princeton-specific, only that the problem is inarguably more prevalent at princeton than at yale and arguably so in comparison to harvard. Also, ur claim that princeton’s undergrad culture is identical to that of HYS simply because it takes from the same applicant pool as those three schools ignores two things. First of all, anti-intellectualism may not be a problem inherent in the students themselves but in the structures of the university (i.e., eating clubs, which lend themselves to bigger parties as opposed to the more intimate room gatherings that are more conducive to intellectual exchange). Secondly, Princeton’s choosing from the same applicant pool as HYS is different than its enrolling the same applicant pool. While I agree that prin’s reputation as preppy, elitist, conservative, jocky (adj. form jock?) bears closer resemblance to the prin student body of thirty years ago than that of today, the fact of the matter is that reputations perpetuate themselves through the type of students they attract. Hence, prin's conservative/preppy reputation tends to attract the people in the HYPS applicant pool that best fit this image, whereas Yale’s liberal, more quirky/individualistic image attracts those types of people.

And I wasn't trying to bash princeton only to offer advice to somebody choosing between prin and yale on why yale, in my opinion and in the opinion of princeton teachers who have previously taught there, provides a richer intellectual experience.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:50 am: Edit

Julie, I am a big fan of Y, but my own d chose to apply to P over Y precisely because, surprising though it sounds, Y offered virtually nothing in her particular area of the arts while P offers many rich opportunities in it. This was hard for us to believe at first, because of Y's artsy reputation and P's preppy one. Nonetheless, it's resoundingly true.

In the course of her travels, we became aware of (as Mzhang says) the number of common admits between the two schools and the many similarities between them in terms of small classes, etc (although P does have the freshman seminars and several other things that are very appealing). I am not sure about the idea of any college "provid[ing] a richer intellectual experience." I think it's up to students to find and/or create those, and the opportunities are definitely there at P for any student who seeks them.

I'd hope students on these boards would look beyond the stereotypes (and even teachers can stereotype). I know for a fact that some of those preppy-looking kids at P are liberals, and many of the members of Ivy are performing artists. When my s was applying to college, we visited Y and sat in on a class that had been very highly rated by students in their course guide. Expecting the place to be a little Athens, were we surprised to see that most of the students in the lecture were either yawning or literally fast asleep! But I'm sure that was just an off day...

By Eze (Eze) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 03:00 am: Edit

Everyone should acknowledge the fact that Julie66 is an expert on Princeton because she quotes the very trustworthy "Prince" and has spent several years observing student life here. She can also make the bold statement that "princeton's anti-intellectualism is not an off-base and unfounded reputation but an undisputed fact that the administration acknowledges as a pressing problem". Everyone knows that we can trust administrations to provide an objective POV. She also has solid evidence for the claim that intellectual conversation somehow occurs at parties. Last I checked, college parties involve alcohol and not debates on the merits of Kantian ethics. I LOVE how ignorant high school seniors think they know so much. I can't wait until Harvard humbles this pathetic and toolish person.

For the record, let's try to keep it civil folks.

Moderator

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 07:41 pm: Edit

"she quotes the very trustworthy 'Prince'" -
I guess princeton's newspaper is not trustworthy after all, I'm sorry for assuming that princeton's primary newspaper would provide an objective point of view on issues the university is dealing with. And, FYI, whether students discuss kantian ethics or the mere intrigues of their imagination, there is a major difference in intimacy and discussion-value at small room gatherings (such as those that dominate the social scene at Yale and Brown), whether or not these discussions take place in the context of alcohol consumption (though not binging) or marijuanna inhalation, and the large frat or eating club parties that dominate the social scene at schools such as Dartmouth, Penn, and Princeton. And if what I've said about princeton's anti-intellectualism makes me guilty of ignorance, than princeton's administration, faculty, and some of its student body (who have voiced the same concerns in op-ed pieces) are guilty of the same crime. In fact, they are the only ones guilty of ignorance; my only crime is reporting what they said.

By Hooah (Hooah) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

During April Hosting Weekend, I found Princeton to be a little too pretentious for my tastes. The majority of the social scene revolved around the concept of eating clubs, many of the exclusive and perpetuating an elitist atmosphere. I'm goin to MIT.

By Mitwannabe (Mitwannabe) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 12:43 am: Edit

Amen to that Hooah. Princeton was too elitist for my taste. Too many polo-wearing bastards, daughter-gripping snobbish fathers, the social scene was so fake, and when it was real, people were lost with their identity (fine, not all, but a lot that I saw). The people at MIT were a million miles more down to earth than ppl at Princeton were. Granted Princeton's campus is gorgeous, I wanna engineer, and MIT's engineering department puts Princeton's to shame. I'm still a little hesitant because I loved the architecture and beauty of Princeton, and I also loved the quiet and peaceful atmosphere, but when it comes down to it, I want a better engineering education. I think I'm going to MIT.

By Chemy (Chemy) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 05:04 am: Edit

i fnd this intresting quote on intellectualism at yale and others....:


When compared with every other university in the country, world-renowned columnist David Brooks says that "Yale seems to have the best combination of small classes, a curious intellectual atmosphere, and a fun social scene."

"I've long regarded Yale as the best school in America.... but even I was blown away by the richness of student life at Yale."

-Renowned New York Times columnist David Brooks (an alum of UChicago), "Making It: Love and Success in America's Finest
Universities", Dec. 23, 2002, The Weekly Standard.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 09:00 am: Edit

"Too many polo-wearing bastards, daughter-gripping snobbish fathers"

Wow, Mitwannabe, are you stereotyping, or what? Just because people wear different clothes than you do doesn't make it right to use foul language about them, does it? Isn't that...elitism?

Julie, there are room parties at Princeton as well. But many students enjoy the "scene" at the eating clubs, where there are rooms for dancing, talking, and drinking weak beer. Most of them prefer to go there with friends, with whom they have long conversations elsewhere at other times. They also just take meals there. As for no bingeing at Yale, well...http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=24104

And as for David Brooks, well, he taught at Yale and not at the other schools in that article. He says: "At Dartmouth and Princeton, too, every other student you meet has just come back from some service adventure in remotest China or Brazil. During my conversations with them, I would sometimes realize with a start that they were two decades younger than me. With their worldliness, their sophisticated senses of humor, their ability to at least fake knowledge of a wide variety of fields, they socialize just like any group of fortysomethings." Quite a different take than some here seem to have about Dartmouth and Princeton students. In fact, the whole thrust of the article makes it clear that Brooks sees the similarities among students at all these schools as far greater than their differences: http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Misc/Brooks-article.htm

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

>>Too many polo-wearing bastards, daughter-gripping snobbish fathers, the social scene was so fake, and when it was real, people were lost with their identity (fine, not all, but a lot that I saw).

Erm, did you visit during prefrosh weekend. From other friend's accounts and from my own experience, this is definitely not the Princeton I've overnighted at three times.

And to the people who say that the social scene absolutely revolves around the eating clubs: it's not true. I have several friends there who could care less about the eating clubs. One is heavily involved in publications and the other spends his time with his close-knit group of friends from his a capppella group. Anyways, room parties do happen, and in the three times I've overnighted I've attended quite a few. In fact, they could be possibly even more intimate than Yale's advertised room parties, since you have to know where to go instead of just hopping from residential college to residential college basement/party quad at Yale. I'm not ragging on Yale here, but I'd just like to point out that the differences are far less than the similiarities, unlike what some people make that out to be.

By Mitwannabe (Mitwannabe) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:55 pm: Edit

"Wow, Mitwannabe, are you stereotyping, or what? Just because people wear different clothes than you do doesn't make it right to use foul language about them, does it? Isn't that...elitism? "

How do you think i stereotyped? I'm describing what I saw exactly as it was, I'm not trying to twist things here. I witnessed 3 separate cases in which the kind of people I described acted with a superior air towards some of the people there that weekend, and one of the cases was with a group of "polo-wearing bastards" making a prefrosh feel worthless (they were picking on him) - lol, not me tho, but a guy living in the same college quad i was in . I wouldn't try to force elitism on my opinion either. If I do feel better than these people it's because I don't treat people that way and I do know what matters in life.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

"Too many polo-wearing bastards, daughter-gripping snobbish fathers"

You're just describing what you saw "exactly as it was"? Please don't ever become a journalist. This is the Jayson Blair school of factual reporting.

I'm not sure what to make of the "daughter-gripping." I may be seen hugging my own daughter on campus now and then, but I'm a mom. I am very sorry to hear that students were picking on a prefrosh. That is definitely wrong, and a poor reflection on Princeton students as a whole, unfortunately. I don't defend those students. Otoh, this year Princeton had 50 percent more prefrosh visits than ever before, and all of those students were hosted by Princeton student volunteers.

By Mitwannabe (Mitwannabe) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:46 pm: Edit

did you go to princeton? u seem pretty defensive of the school. by daughter-gripping i mean like how some daughters clung to their fathers as if they never had a sense for independence ... picture them saying in their freshman year "daddy can you forward me some money for this and that". funny i actually starting considering pton again b/c i had a sudden change in future career path choices, so i may go and it might just be a matter of not associating with the arrogant snobby types, but i still hold by my earlier contention that mit has a warmer student body.

By Unity91 (Unity91) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 12:24 am: Edit

"Anyways, room parties do happen, and in the three times I've overnighted I've attended quite a few. In fact, they could be possibly even more intimate than Yale's advertised room parties, since you have to know where to go instead of just hopping from residential college to residential college basement/party quad at Yale. "

Mzhang are you paid by the admissions office to spew all this crap abotu princeton?

Princeton is the epitome of conservative elitism and thats the end of it. Yes there is diversity and yes there are other things but in the end, princeton is not only intellectually but also fiscally conservative (and a few meat heads here and there)

P.S. Mzhang23, if you're busy at these room parties, why the hell are you posting when you're actually at Princeton?

Maybe somebody doesn't want to admit how exclusive the college is. And from all you've said, you seem to just be an arrogant little kid who is going to princeton for the name.

By Unity91 (Unity91) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 12:27 am: Edit

Yeah the university does subsidize the kegs at yale but the parties are restricted to individual colleges and like my friend once said, no matter how much beer you have at yale, the girls still don't get any prettier

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 12:47 am: Edit

"Maybe somebody doesn't want to admit how exclusive the college is. And from all you've said, you seem to just be an arrogant little kid who is going to princeton for the name."

Hi, Eric! Nice attempt at calling me names and bashing Princeton. Too bad your e-mail address isn't hidden. Lol.

"you seem to just be an arrogant little kid who is going to princeton for the name."

Hahaha. I'll see you in school tomorrow.

"Princeton is the epitome of conservative elitism and thats the end of it. Yes there is diversity and yes there are other things but in the end, princeton is not only intellectually but also fiscally conservative."

yep yep yep whatever... go enjoy yourself dartmouth or williams.

By Monekit (Monekit) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Unity91, some people are just going to defend their alma mater or the school they are going to, regardless of the criticism, and pretend like the school has no problems. Let us just ignore their biased opinions.

By Tunan_Fish (Tunan_Fish) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Instead of spending your time assasinating Mzhang's character, perhaps you should address his points. He, unlike several of those who criticizes him, posts using both statistical and anecdotal evidence. Saying something like "Princeton is the last bastion of conservative elitism" without evidence and then bashing Mzhang isn't only bad manners, it's bad debating.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Don't mind Unity. He's a classmate who's doing this as a joke. If not, he's pretty stupid for not hiding his email before he lambasted me.

It's pretty stupid to call Princeton a bastion of elitism, considering nearly all the professors are quite liberal (in fact, Steve Jobs and other alumni withold their donations because of a certain liberal professor of Bioethics at Princeton), as is the student body (only 20% supported the war in Iraq). Anyways, he was most likely joking or being ignorant. Just ignore him.

Monekit, how am I pretending that the school has no problems? I'm perfectly willing to talk about and list the weaknesses of the school, as you can see in some of my other posts (Yes, Harvard is more prestigious than Princeton. That's not up for debate with me). Know who you're talking about before you try to attack me.

By Monekit (Monekit) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 08:14 pm: Edit

"Monekit, how am I pretending that the school has no problems? I'm perfectly willing to talk about and list the weaknesses of the school, as you can see in some of my other posts (Yes, Harvard is more prestigious than Princeton. That's not up for debate with me). Know who you're talking about before you try to attack me."

I'll be more than glad to have a link pointing to a conversation of where you've outright stated a weakness of Princeton, so I won't know like you come off to be.

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Mzhang admitted that Harvard and Yale are more prestigous than Princeton in the "HYP net mentions thread." Other than that, I have only seen him defend his future alma mater.

One thing I find interesting about the princeton threads is that while princeton criticism about its elitism, concervatism, anti-intellectualism, new grade deflation measures, eating clubs, and dead town has come from a wide a array of people, for the most part the only people defending princeton against these claims have been Mzhang (who applied early and got into princeton) and Aparent (whose daughter is currently a sophmore at princeton). Ocasionally tunan fish (who will also be attending princeton next year) will come to its defense. Is it a coincidence that so many people who have no bias toward or against princeton but merely got into both princeton and other schools and dislike princeton for reasons they've discovered by researching (though some have criticized my use of the school newspaper for information about issues the school is dealing with) and by visiting (such as mitwannabe, Hoohah, and myself) voice criticism about the school while the only ones defending it are a small group of people who either applied early to princeton and got in, got into princeton but not HYS, or who are shelling out an absorbitant fee for their children to attend. Again, I am not trying to attack princeton, only to point out that there is a considerable imbalance between the people who defend princeton and those who criticize it. Also, on the post boards for Yale and Harvard the threads do not contain nearly as much negativity about the schools but most often pertain to questions about student life, the admissions process, or excitement about going there (yes, there is ocassional criticism abt these two schools, but it is drowned out by the waves of princeton criticism). Is it that College Confidential, a forum open to everyone with internet access, is conspiring to spread slanderous remarks about princeton in a internet-wide plot to bring the school "down the toilet bowl" or is it that there is more criticism about princeton than there is about other schools simply because there are more reasons to be critical?

By Wickedsmaht (Wickedsmaht) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

You build too much drama over such trivialities.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:02 pm: Edit

How about applying Occam's razor here? I defend Princeton simply because I know it first-hand, and the rumor mill just doesn't describe what I have seen with my own eyes.

One thing I find interesting is that the Princeton defenders have not, for the most part, made nasty remarks about H or Y. That can't be said for the H or Y defenders. Why does this have to be a zero-sum game?

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

i find it interesting that you considered what mitwannabe and hoohah posted abt wht they observed during the princeton admit weekend to be "nasty" and "stereotying." People are simply stating their valid and soundly-based criticism and voicing why they'd rather attend another school.

u shouldnt assume people who voice criticism about P to be H and Y defenders; most are simply explaining the reasons why they made the choice against princeton and for H or Y or S or, in mitwannabe's case, MIT. It is you and mzhang who feel the need to constantly defend princeton against the reasons these people are stating.

H and Y doesn't have staunch "defenders" like princeton has you and mzhang, they have people who talk on their boards abt questions abt getting in or going. I'm sure there are people out there whose daughters go to the H or Y or who feel the need to constantly justify to themselves their decision to apply to H or Y early who would jump to H or Y's defence as you and mzhang do princeton, but they don't have the opportunity to defend H or Y simply because there isn't anybody voicing the reasons why they made the choice against H or Y and for P. Obviously I cant say this for sure, but the reason why no one is voicing why they chose P over H or Y is probably because, in this year where princeton is less selective and where they are instituting an un-student-friendly grade quota policy, hardly anybody is is choosing P over H or Y. This may be wrong, but I believe Princeton's yield this year will show this to be true.

By Julie66 (Julie66) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit

I simply defend Princeton against overdramatizations of its elitism, conservatism, and snobbiness. While these characteristics certainly held as recently as 15 years ago (not that they didn't hold at other schools back then), they are very much not true now. Julie66 presents some valid criticisms of Princeton that are unfortunately overdramatized.

Also, his theory that "hardly anybody is is choosing P over H or Y" holds not water. I wouldn't be surprised if Princeton still maintained its traditionally high yield - more prefrosh than ever showed interest in visiting despite a drop in applications.

Anyways, some people on collegeconfidential aren't who you think. People can easily claim that they got into x and y college. I called Julie66 a he for a reason; that was no typo. I'll leave it at that.

My advice: believe only those who are credible and have a history of posting non-trollish posts. Search my posts: you'll find that I'm a Yale lover as well as a enthusiastic Princetonian. Good night all.

By Eliyale (Eliyale) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:20 am: Edit

I find it hard to believe that some posters, probably HS seniors, are trashing Princeton, one of the greatest universities in the world, because they have had a few bad encounters with students there. From my limited experience with Princetonians (I am not one), they are as intelligent, funny, and down-to-earth as alumni from other reputable institutions. It is probably just bad luck that you met only people at P who are snobbish/elitist. I am sure that if you visit again, the P students that you next encounter will probably be as friendly as students at other places.

On the other hand, maybe P is not the right fit for you. In that case, matriculate at another fine school.

When I am surrounded by Princetonians, we often tease each other mercilessly about the shortcomings of the others' alma maters. But we only do it in private, knowing full well that we are joking. Truth is, the more Princetonians that I meet, the more respect I have for the university. I hope that you will be saying the same thing about your own school as you meet more of its alumni.

By Hooah (Hooah) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:59 am: Edit

I am in no way demeaning the institution of Princeton, just explaining my (limited) experience during their April Hosting Weekend. The people that I met had a general air of pretention around them. It may have been pure chance that my experience was like that, and I'm sure they are in no way a representative sample of the institution's student population as a whole, but it impacted my own experience such that I don't think I will be attending Princeton. I spent three days at Princeton. I did have some fun, but overall I felt like the general atmosphere was a bit elitist. I didn't feel anything of the sort at MIT, quite the opposite. I'm sure Princeton has many fun, down-to-earth people and MIT has some snobs as well. Princeton certainly seemed to have a higher percentage of the snob population. I may be wrong about both universities, but all I have to go on are my own personal visits to the university.

Princeton just wasn't the right atmosphere for me.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 08:13 am: Edit

Julie, I didn't come on here to "jump to P's defense." I came on here to offer helpful information about admissions and campus life, where possible.

I am open to the possibility that some of the students here, like Hooah, will visit campus and decide it's not for them. Fine. There are quite a few fine schools neither of my kids wanted to attend. One of the great things about our college admissions process is that it offers students the opportunity to make choices based on their own preferences and personal style.

Those thoughtful comments are quite different from those that are vitriolic or that generalize from the particular, which I believe it is quite appropriate (and helpful to readers of this board) to refute.

By Asterix (Asterix) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I can't help wondering if Princeton's reputation as preppy and elitist affected how all the visiting pre-frosh view the school. If you go there expecting to see that sort of thing, you are more likely to, and you're more likely to make quick judgements after only seeing a few people. "Oh yeah, I was told it's like that!" I did think the Princetonians are the best dressed out of all the Ivys however.

By Blackivyleaguer (Blackivyleaguer) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:21 am: Edit

Wow. Thank God I'm going to Columbia.

By Rampagingk1tty (Rampagingk1tty) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Hey I heart Pton anyway even though I'm a HS senior who won't be going there next year. I was accepted but I'm going for Penn's Huntsman program.

"Intellectual" is one of the first words I'd use to describe the Princeton student body. I feel a lot of people there swing heavily toward the academic side. As a closet nerd at heart, I had no trouble having dorky intellectual conversations about dorky intellectual topics. But this is just my opinon. DUring April Hosting I saw lots of students in polos and khakis, and as many in jean and hoodies.

By Onlyindreams (Onlyindreams) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit

hahahahhahahahhahhahahahahah Blackivyleaguer. I was just about to say the same except "Wow. Thank God I'm going to MIT."

By Hooah (Hooah) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Asterix,

Not at all. I went into MIT with a HUGE bias against the school. I was absolutely convinced that there was no way I was going to like it. I expected huge groups of antisocial nerds. I was surprised.

I went into Princeton really wanting to like it (#1 university for years). Princeton was giving me more money, they certainly seemed to care more about me, and it definately has the prestige factor over MIT/other schools I was considering. Coming from the west coast, I basically had no knowledge about anything in th east, so I went in with an open mind. My experience may have been an isolated one, but I just didn't feel comfortable at Princeton despite the gorgeous architecture and academics. Sorry.

By Asterix (Asterix) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

OK, good point. I wasn't saying Princeton isn't preppy, and maybe what I said was a generalization. I guess just in the case of Princeton I wouldn't have paid attention to what people were wearing and wouldn't have noticed so much "elitism" if I wasn't on the lookout for it. Thing is though, I did see it. I was just wondering what I would have noticed if I hadn't gone in with certain expectations.

The same was true for you in a way - you had certain expectations, but upon finding them untrue, you reacted strongly as well. If you had gone in without thinking MIT students were antisocial, would you have been as impressed with the students? I'm not knocking MIT, it's great, but would you have sat there thinking "wow they ARE social" if you hadn't been expecting otherwise?

I'm not trying to support any particular school, they're all great and I don't even know where I'm going.

By Spacecadet (Spacecadet) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Oh, come on. I think the preppiness is kind of endearing. I can't get enough of those polo shirts with the flipped-up collars...mmm, Lacoste.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

For those who believe all Princeton students look one particular way, here's an item from the popular "Verbatim" column in the Nassau Weekly:

"Overheard at Frist:
Mrs. Gilliespie's 5th Grade Class, PS. 174.

Mrs. Gilliespie: Now, class, here is the student center of Princeton. Look at all the interesting quotes on the wall!
Kid 1: What the •••• are we doing here?
Kid 2: Hey, look, that one has a pocket protector!
Kid 1: If our teacher wasn't here I would kick the •••• out of that kid over there.
Kid 2: That kid actually has a rolling backpack.
Kid 3: Wow, it's like a nerd safari."

By Chemy (Chemy) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

hehe, i luv lacoste 2

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:48 am: Edit

"hardly anybody is is choosing P over H or Y. This may be wrong, but I believe Princeton's yield this year will show this to be true. " (Julie 66)


Julie66,

if you happen to have some insider data on HYP cross-offer preferences, please share them with us! While I have none to refute your hypothesis with regard to THIS YEAR, I am in doubt whether your statement generally stands.

Princeton accepted some 580 early decision candidates a couple of years ago – and although we by definition have no documented indication where else these applicants may have been accepted (i.e. had they applied), I would not bet against a significant part of them also being qualified to obtain HY admissions in RD procedures (which they were neither allowed nor interested in trying under ED conditions).

At least the publicly available data I found, do not necessarily support your claim, though:

First, let’s take a look at recent yields:
For the class of 2007 Harvard received 20,987 applications (undergrad), admitted 2,094 and 1,639 eventually enrolled (source: www.harvard.edu)
Average yield: 78%

Princeton, according to "The Princeton review" (an independent company not related to the school, afaik) had an acceptance rate of 10% (this year supposedly 11,9% incl. ED) and an average yield of 73%.

According to the same source, Yale last year had an acceptance rate of 14% (this year 9,8% seemingly) and an average yield of 64%.

And Stanford 70% average yield btw (>Y that is)

There may have been marginal shifts this year, although note that they are mainly taking place in the area of acceptance rates (esp. Yale) which has to do with early action policies primarily.

Generally speaking, average HYP cross-preferences CANNOT be inferred from average yields per se, but if one wanted to assume a comparable overlap in the applicant pool, then Harvard would trendwise take the lead by traditional data, while Pton would not be far away. Certainly there is no indication in the YIELD data that cross-offer applicants would systematically turn down P over Y.

It appears though, that frequently applicants to one school of HYP, also tend to apply to at least one other of those schools (if not to all three). This can be surmised from the Laissez-Faire Ranking (accessible through this website), which indicates in no arbitrary order (mind the changes in order when looking at various schools!)other schools frequently applied to by students ultimately enrolled in one of the 3 colleges. To no real surprise we read there that:

Harvard students also (frequently) applied to: Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Brown (in that order)
Princeton students also applied to: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT (in that order)
Yale students also applied to: Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Brown, Penn

In other words: the overlap in HYP cross-offers cannot be that small a sample, as the conditions for getting into any of the 3 are rather similar (which of course does not mean that students enrolling in one of these colleges did not get rejected by at least one other out of the 3, when applying to any other out of the 3).

Now let us take a look at a sub-sample, where the potential overlap can be assumed to be high: namely, early applicants. There is widespread consent among HYPSM admission offices that the ‘early’ applicant pool (s)( i.e. regardless of ED vs. EA) is ‘more qualified’ than the RD pool. A Harvard admissions officer coined the phrase of the ‘better self selection’ in this respect. In other words, a student accepted EA somewhere is likely to get accepted RD at the other places. In other words: this subsample s likely to have the highest HYP cross-offer rates (in a time lag sense: fist get EA at one place, then RD at the other ones).

Interesting indirect data on cross-offer decisions I found in this (critical about Pton’s ED practice) letter of a Pton alumnus (published in the “Princeton alumni Weekly” March 2002) with regard to early applicants. http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/web_exclusives/more/more_letters/letters_earlyadmit.html

Under early decision conditions (which Pton reverted to recently -1996?), by definition, there are no cross-offers to decide about. 35% of ED applicants were admitted by Pton in 2001 (see letter). Now, earlier in the 1990s , Pton had practiced early ACTION (like Harvard) and the alumnus letter indicates that under EA conditions Pton’s acceptance rate (for the early applicant pool) was on an average over time around 44% - not outrageously far away from the 35% under ED! If we assume, and I concede that this is hypothetical, although highly plausible (!) that the number of students expected to enroll from the early admittee pool (REGARDLESS of the fact whether they were admitted under EA or ED conditions!) was kept more or less constant by Pton admissions over the years (say as a rule of thumb: no more than half of the class), then the (still minor) divergence of the percentages 35% vs. 44% tells us, that few of the early applicants (under the EA regime) changed their mind when they technically could. In numbers: expect a couple of hundreds in those years to have received at least one H or Y admission via RD some months later without considering it.

One caveat: I am NOT suggesting that admittees with cross-offers from HYP consistently pick P over HY, I am just under the impression that the data indirectly refute the notion that the reverse were true. quod erat demonstrandum

What the contrast of ED (former EA) acceptance percentages at Pton tells us is primarily this: there seems to be a not really tiny crowd that is primarily interested in Pton and does not consider it their second best.

I am always open to learn things from authentic data, but I am reluctant to gullibly buy into prejudices.


Regards, Foreigngrad


PS: I tend to agree with you though that Pton, more than H or Y, tends to polarize opinions: some really love it and prefer it over the other big names for a variety of reasons that are only poorly captured by phrases like “elitism” (let’s be honest: which of these places aren’t elitist, let’s not fool ourselves) others however feel that while it may be a good school academically it simply is not compatible with their lifestyle or social preferences or whatever. Which is perfectly ok.

By Yep (Yep) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 12:57 pm: Edit

i chose princeton over harvard, yale, stanford, and mit

By Newyorker06 (Newyorker06) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:16 pm: Edit

i can find the link for this later but the stats show that:

84% of joint H and Y admits choose H
75% of joint H and P admits choose H

By Dadx (Dadx) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

That would make sense to me. Yale and Harvard are more like each other, and there is a general view that Harvard is preferred. Between H and P theres more of a difference in the choice.

I have a sense that Princeton attracts more applicants who are not interested in applying to either of the other two, than do H and Y. Never seen a stat....just an unsubstantiatable feeling.

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 03:20 am: Edit

Newyorker06,

do you happen to know the percentage of joint P and Y?

To come back to Julie66's question, it would be interesting to know, how large those samples are (I mean do 75% of double H and P admits correspond to some 200, or 100 or 50?

To judge the proportions in this context, also let me repeat one of the arguments I proposed earlier: There is a hidden - supposedly significant(!) - 'sub-population' of people obviously preferring P over anything else ( including H) that does not show in your statistic: namely, the portion of those ca. 580 early P admits (ED that is), that at least in part would have had a good chance of getting into H (or Y), IF they had had the occasion to apply there simultaneously (EA) or later (RD), which they were banned from however by the regime of ED. By the very defintion, this sub-population chose P over H (although we cannot quantify it, but it would be definitely more than "hardly anybody" (Julie66).

and...please give us your source occasionally, please!

By Mitwannabe (Mitwannabe) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 04:56 am: Edit

i posted originally about 1.5 months ago when i had all of my decisions about which schools i was mainly choosing between, and *drumroll* I chose mit over princeton, harvard, blah blah blah and others. mit has a better engineering program by far, and to be a little mean yet blunt, princeton's aerospace/mechanical engineering department was pathetic. i cant say the same about physics and math tho. i loved the princeton campus, the buildings, the greenery, but couldnt stand some of the incoming students and parents (as i earlier so eloquently stated -- that post came out more hostile than i intended, haha!). but for some reason princeton didn't wholeheartedly click with me. i didnt like the whole notion of eating clubs. i thought they were neat, but i dont wanna have to try to make friends and get into this and that club. try to make friends? pff, gimme a break, i wouldnt lift a finger. mit's campus isnt as nice as princeton's, and the diversity of princeton students in terms of major only is lacking at mit (diversity in general at mit is huge, but for major, not really). i also liked princeton because it was a more formal diplomatic approach to college, being an ivy league, prestigious and all, and im a sucker for that kinda stuff. i wish mit had more of that, but it's an engineering/science/math school, not a broad-based liberal arts haven. i'm a whore for brandnames too, which is why it was hell checking the "I do not plan to enroll at Harvard/Princeton" box. If I got rejected from MIT and had to choose between Harvard and Princeton, wow, could there be a decision any more difficult (I'd do physics)?. Bottom line, go where you're happy. Go where there are the best resources and opportunities for your major (<--- big factor for me right there). I got passed the "name" issue, even though MIT is a huge brand name. I'm still looking to include an ivy league on my resume.........

By Foreigngrad (Foreigngrad) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 02:13 pm: Edit

"Bottom line, go where you're happy. Go where there are the best resources and opportunities for your major"

Mitwannabe,

I subscribe to that, you neatly summed up what really counts in the end and I think it can't be said often enough.

Good luck to you!