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In the context of my school, I have a strong profile. With 4 A+'s out of my 6 classes (3 of which were AP level) during my eleventh grade year, after this year I will have taken 7 AP classes, an overall GPA of 4.4 on a 4.6 scale, President of Habitat for Humanity, Secretary of Key Club, on the student government, co-president of the multi-cultural club, tutor, initiator of my own program that has recieved news paper recognition, varsity soccer 2 years, selective instrumental and vocal ensemble, director of an annual summer camp hosted by my school for children, outdoors club and held the treasurer position, and spanish club. On the dark side, my SAT's are low: my highest math schore being a 670, and my highest verbal: 590. As far as my SAT 2's: Math 1C: 600, Physics: 660, and Writing: 560. Likewise, my AP's are fairly low: AP lang:2, AP lit:2, AP euro hist: 4 (actually not that bad), AP american hist: 3. In general i am not a good standarized test taker i guess. What are my chances of being accepted?

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 04:56 pm: Edit

I guess they will evaluate you on the basis of your background (i.e. do you come from an underpriveledged family, in which case they might give you the benefit of a doubt) but I think the question most officers would ask is why do you do so many extracurriculars when your standardized test scores are low. But since you have a strong transcript and ECs, and if your essays are interesting/moving/unique, then you would have a chance.

By Mrpool420 (Mrpool420) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit

What do you mean when you say "why do you do so many extracurriculars when your standardized test scores are low." The two are totally exclusive. I generally do not test well, not on SAT's, SAT 2's, AP's, even those achievment tests we took during our middle school years. I dont understand how "not testing well" as any impact on why i would participate in so many EC's. No matter how much i prepare for the SAT, (and trust me, i prepared a lot) I come out with a low score.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

You have a very, very small chance at Princeton with scores that low. Sorry, but I'm trying to tell you the truth here. Unless you are a recruit, which you aren't, those scores are not gonna pass with any admissions officer. Princeton has accepted lots of people with scores in the 1300's, but 1200's are really iffy.

In the context of your school, your grades may be very good, but with AP's of 2, 2, 4, and 3, it shows that the courses you take are either not very hard and therefore prepare you insufficiently for the AP. You have A+'s in your AP classes, yet you do quite poorly on the AP's with the exception of Euro.

It is true that you have a fair amount of EC's and that you are a strong student at your school. However, placed in the pool of other applicants, there is very little that would make you stand out. Princeton is an academic institution, so they want good students first.

If indeed, you are simply a poor standardized test taker, then perhaps your essays are those of a well-written student. If you show Princeton that, they will take that into consideration. That is why you still have a shot, albeit a very small shot.

By Mrpool420 (Mrpool420) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Will it help that my sister, my father, my 2 uncles, my grandfather, and my great grandfather attended Princeton?

By Tunan_Fish (Tunan_Fish) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Yeah, Mzhang nailed it. It comes down to the context of your school. If I have to look at one student who gets an A+ in English @ school A but gets a 600 on Writing and a 3 on English Language, and another student who gets a B in English but an 800 Writing and a 5 on English Language, I have to make certain assumptions, one of which is that the first's student's school is simply not that great and that an A there is equivalent to a C at another school . . .

By Tunan_Fish (Tunan_Fish) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Also, it will certainly help that you have a large # of relatives who go/went to Princeton. But how much do they donate? A lot of times it seems that admissions officers, looking at a file such as yours might think that you're thinking, "Well, they let my sister in, so they have to let me in."

Having strong legacy ties will help a lot, but I still think that your academics are not impressive + think that you have a slim shot at Princeton.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 06:09 pm: Edit

>>Will it help that my sister, my father, my 2 uncles, my grandfather, and my great grandfather attended Princeton?

If you're not joking, that may help you. But it will certainly not get you in, unless your family is willing to build the new residential college.

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

What I mean, is the Admissions Officers will think "Why are you spending all this time on Extracurriculars, when you could be using that time to boost your standardized test scores, and studying for those AP tests and getting 4s and 5s on them." Colleges look for extracurricular, that is true, but they don't want you to sacrifice your academics to do extracurriculars.

Your legacy does give you advantage at Princeton, though. In 1997, legacy admits at Princeton were at 40%. But I'm not sure what the statistics are for the class of 2007; they probably have dropped, along with all other statistics, as college admissions have become astronomically competitive.

In fact, you might even write an essay explaining how you are not a good standardized test taker, but it better be a good one.

By Warriorlax22 (Warriorlax22) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 07:14 pm: Edit

"Princeton has accepted lots of people with scores in the 1300's, but 1200's are really iffy."

whoo-hoo! princeton here i come. yeah, right.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit

The 1300's that are usually accepted have amazing talents that more than make up for their low standardized testing.

By Mrpool420 (Mrpool420) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 09:33 pm: Edit

well, i dont care what you guys think, b/c my grandfather is on the board of collectors and he says that i am already in. I just had to fill out the application as a formality thing. so see you guys in the fall.

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 09:39 pm: Edit

then why did you even post this question?

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Hey, you asked us in the first place.

And I'm sorry, but this board has no room for your cockiness. Your writing and verbal skills will carry you far at Princeton; I hope your grandfather can buy you a 4.0 gpa there too.

HTH

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

What a load of crap. You know, people complain about AA and recruited athletes, but people like you, Mrpool420, are the worst of all. No one with such dismal stats should feel anything but bad about getting into a school like Princeton just because his grandpa is an alumni big-shot. If you get in, you'll be taking the place of someone who deserves it much more than you.

My 2 cents.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Personally, I would take ElGreco - a rather conceited but nevertheless extremely talented fellow - over you as my roommate anyday. Hell, even warriorlax22, with his constant asian moaning, would be better than you.

This sort of attitude is what still makes people think Princeton is full of snobs. One is enough to ruin a whole campus tour for many people. I hope you know recruited football players tend to have higher stats than you.

Foreignboy is right - you should feel privileged to still be admitted to Princeton. You act like it's you right or something to be admitted there - and guess what: it's not.

Reading your other posts, Mrpool, I guess you digitally edited your transcript too.

By Mrpool420 (Mrpool420) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Maybe so, but when push comes to shove, I will always be the one on top, I will always be the more successful one, I will always be the one driving fancier cars, drinking nicer champagne, sleeping with hotter women.....why? because I have about 50 million dollars in my name because my family owns a 200 year old steel industry. No matter how much you may THINK i dont deserve it, it all doesn't matter, because i will always be just, plain and simple, BETTER

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:29 pm: Edit

hahaha.

You're a funny and petty man. Remind me to give you an internship at least when I buy your company.

Thanks for inspiring me to be successful so I can rid the world of snobs like you. :-)

On the other hand, you could stop spouting bs. Lying will get you nowhere. Go ahead and admit it, you're not rich, and as arrogant as you pretend to be, the Princeton Admissions won't count that as a hook.

Board of collectors? You don't say! What board is that? Sorry, but my good friend the Princeton trustee tells me that doesn't exist.

Hope that helps!

By Tunan_Fish (Tunan_Fish) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Pathetic.

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 11:50 pm: Edit

After careful...err, not careful, after consideration my BS detector went off big time. People who can't handle constructive criticism are some of the worst...there's no need to get defensive about anything. You wanted the straight dope, we gave it to ya, so why do you feel the need to lie and make up for it? You still have a shot, go for it (although I won't be rooting for you), that's what you wanted to hear, right?



Mrpool has been banned.
Sheeprun
<moderator>

By Macbeth04 (Macbeth04) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Daggerlee.

What you said about the Princeton admissions committee wondering why that guy didn't spend more time studying for a test than affecting the world bothers me. I had hoped the Princeton officers would be looking for someone who wouldn't sacrifice a passion for learning testing strategies.

I don't like what Mrpool said, but his original stats are the stats of a person I hope to go to college with. I don't think you can judge a person based on standardized test scores. If that's what Princeton does, then I am glad they didn't accept me ED.

By Iflyjets (Iflyjets) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 07:23 pm: Edit

As an aside: rich does not equal smart; rich does not equal better; rich does not equal happiness. Moreover, when the money is inherited, rich does not even equal personal success. Just a thought.

By Bigtmushett (Bigtmushett) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

Well Mabeth, if someone got a 2 on two AP Tests, it suggests that they are unqualified and did not learn the content of the course. It is possible that they could be "bad test takers," but once they get to Princeton, they will be taking lots of tests.

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Macbeth, getting a 2 on an AP test means you were rather...unprepared. The APs are graded so that anything above a certain percentage right is a 5...if I recall correctly, it is usually between 66 and 75% right. So, a 2 means he got somewhere from 20-40% right...in the context of his high school trancsript, makes it seem like his school is not very challenging at all. The SATs and AP tests and high school transcript provide the adcom with the answer to the most important question they ask: can this applicant handle the academics here at our college?

That being said, I know people with less than stellar academics who instead have devoted a large portion of their time to extracurriculars that they believed in, not because they thought it would look good on the resume, and they've gotten in to prestigious Ivy League schools. What I mean is, that through their work they've actually effected change, and have had newspaper and magazines stories about them, etc. However, their SAT and SAT-II scores were higher than the hypothetical candidate that MrPool claimed he was, so they showed they were still able to keep up with their studies. I agree that SATs are just a matter of learning testing strategies, but SAT-IIs and AP tests are effective ways of gauging how well a person knows the material....not how well one knows the testing strategy.

All in all, Princeton is an academic institution of knowledge and learning first, with a strong emphasis on social change (Princeton, in every nation's service, etc.). There are institutions that put a higher focus on social change than academics (Warren Wilson for example), and you have to decide in the end which one you want more. I'm not saying the hypothetical candidate that MrPool represents wouldn't gain admission into Princeton, since there are many other factors that come into play. But you're right, I don't think they would ask out right "why do you spend so much time on extracurriculars when your SAT-II/AP scores are low", more like, "why doesn't this person's AP/SAT-II scores reflect his transcript." And honestly, being the president of a few organizations in and of itself is not impressive, considering the talented people Princeton has to choose from. It's the truly accomplished EC activities that can make a candidate stand out, even if his test scores are on the low side of the average at Princeton.

And remember, Princeton is a large enough institution that there will bound to be people like the hypothetical candidate MrPool represented attending, and there will be plenty of people at Princeton who are truly passionate about their ECs (because it will show through in their essays, and the type of person they are.)

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Also Macbeth, I've reproduced for you the way Princeton's former Dean of Admissions Fred Hargadon ranked EC's, from Michele A. Hernandez's book, paraphrased from an original article in the Princeton Alumni Magazine.

"...The highest score of 1 is reserved for truly exceptional accomplishments, such as swimming at the Olympics, playing the violin at Carnegie Hall, patenting a product, writing a book, and so on. A 2 would usually reflect state or regional levels of accomplishment in a field such as music or sports. A 3 would be the norm of the Princeton pool, captain of a team or two, concert mistress of an orchestra, president of the senior class, etc. In the 4 category would be active students who are involved in many different areas but show no leadership or particular distinction, while 5s show little or no achievement."

In light of that, the hypothetical candidate of MrPool would be a 3, maybe a 2 for his summer club for little kids that achieved newspaper recognition. A person who has a 1 or 2 in ECs and a 3 in academics would have a good chance of being an admit. However, SAT and SAT-II scores make up 2/3rds of the final academic rating, and MrPool would probably be an academic 4...all in all, not exemplary compared to the rest of the Princeton pool.

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

"SAT and SAT-II scores make up 2/3rds of the final academic rating"

Do you think so?

By Daggerlee (Daggerlee) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit

That's what I've been led to believe, it's what Michele A. Hernandez wrote in her book (she was the assistant director of admissions at Dartmouth.) However, the book was published in 1997 and it may have changed since then. As I understand it, back then all the Ivies used similar academic rating indexes, in which SATs constituted a 3rd, class rank (or GPA in rankless schools) a 3rd, and SAT-IIs a 3rd. But then again, schools like Brown take the ACT instead of the SAT-IIs, and as anyone can attest all 8 Ivies are vastly different in every aspect, so it's not like each school is bound by this unholy pact.