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hi, ive posted on the combined degree program forums and I am a high school senior.

My parents want me to go to a combined Foreign Medical program if i do not get into a combined BA/MD program in U.S. As the combined BA/MD programs are extremely competitive (and because i idiotically applied to many of them late) i want to start researching Forign Programs.

No doubt some of you believe that I should continue at as an Undergraduate at a University in the US before i think of applyin to a Foreign Medical School, but I jus wanna make sure i have the latter option.
DeVry presented at my school and said they BOUGHT Ross MED and were building campuses in CA and NY. and that if i attended their BIOTECH degree program, i'd have a good chance of gettin into Ross and that the construction would be done by three years (DEVRY degrees take 3 yrs)

BC DeVry is well Devry, I wanted some more opinions on wut ive been hearing--and--if Ross does in fact build here--then i would no longer be considered a FMG right? --and--- Puerto Rico med schools, how do they work?---as a high school senior, wut combined 5,6,7 yr foreign programs should i be considering- like which ones are the most prestigious and have most grads gettin residency-- i heard if u were a US student since birth-went to foreign med school- its easier to get US residency than totally foreign student--how true is that---and-- ive also heard on many occasions that if i "know" somebody(s) that can get me residency FOR SURE, that i should go Foreign, right after HS without hesitation for the amount saved in time and money and the "getting residency problem" has been taken care of. how true?
jeez, sorry for the mass of questions guys, i'd appreciate any responses at all, thanks

By Rishi718 (Rishi718) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 05:42 am: Edit

o ya, sorry, i was also wonderin about wut exact extra hurdles FMG go thru
i know gettin residency is harder
i heard they have to take tests, but some have said that they take same tests as US Grads, and others have said that FMG's actually take more tests,
r these tests the same as the ones i hear all current doctors must take every 2-3 yrs to re new their license?
thnx once again

By Rishi718 (Rishi718) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 06:51 am: Edit

jeez, im real sorry again, i jus remembered another question thas been buggin me

Combined BA/MD programs in US are cool cus of reduced stress and sometimes no MCAT's. some programs require minimum MCAT scores and when i read these numbers i dont have much of a context to place them in. i would be nice to relate these to SAT scores if possible. i want to know bc knowing how high these required MCAT scores are is part of knowing how "stress-free" the undergrad yrs are. most common ive heard so far is "students must meet national average" and "must score at least 9 in each subset"
thnx once again, again

By Hms (Hms) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 01:41 pm: Edit

rishi,

okay, i will attempt to answer your questions as best as i can:

1) yes, devry bought out ross universiy but ross still maintains its name and operating rights. they are separate entities. this is much like a major cookie company being owned by a tobacco company. nabisco shortbread cookies do not answer to what marlboro lights says (mostly..but other politics are involved).

2) ross university is an excellent foreign medical school that churns out more US residents than any other school worldwide.

3) ross university attempted to open up shop in the US not too long ago but was stopped via protests from the LCME.

4) therefore ross university is still considered a foreign medical school. dont expect that taking courses at devry in the US or because ross may have a satellite campus somewhere in the states that you will not be an FMG.

5) FMG's take the same exams as USMGs. currently, FMGs are required to take the CSA and TOEFL exams (no FMGs are exempt from these, even US citizens) on top of the USMLEs. but, the TOEFL is being phased out and the CSA is being incorporated into the USMLE step 2...therefore, by 2004/5, all FMGs and USMGs will be taking the same exams. the only difference is that FMGs need to pay more to take the same exams.

6) the road for FMGs is more wary. i would be cautious about foreign combined programs. many are a pyramid scam. that is, they accept everyone but as the years pass, the attrition rate is horrendous. most notorious is the french medical programs, something like 10% make it to the end.

7) i believe that the rumors are correct in that US FMGs will have a better chance at residency spots than true FMGs. there are many reasons for this, including but not limited to, language issues, family ties, the fact that US citizens pay taxes which fund residents, etc. also, most FMGs will serve as primary care physicians. with the current system, dont expect to get cushy spots in ortho or derm...wont happen unless your uncle runs the show at a hospital somewhere. those prized spots usually all go to USMGs.

8) my advice is still the same...do undergrad in the US and if need be, apply to foreign programs later. the ONLY exception would be if you are a foreign national. if you plan to practice in the UK...by all means, goto a UK combined program. If you plan to practice medicine in hong kong, it is actually better to goto hong kong med over harvard med as they are fiercely loyal to their own nationals. otherwise, if you plan to practice in the US, goto a US school.

9) the people who take MCATs are self selecting. you have to remember that most premeds are weeded out by the introductory science classes...and only those with decent grades with still a flicker of hope of getting into medical school take the MCATs. there are no hard and fast rules. there really is no correlational data as well. but in my opinion (take it or leave it), a MCAT score that you need to be competitive would be a 31. some people think its less but, honestly, a 27 (9 per subset) is only the bare minimum...you need higher than the bare minimum to realistically stand a chance. a 31 MCAT score is not an easy thing to get (national average hovers around a 24....remember that it is a self selecting group that even TAKES THE EXAM). i believe that those individuals who scored a 31+...if they put in the time to study for the SATs as hard as they studied for the MCATs...those individuals would score very close to a 1600 SATs. after all, the SATs test only the most basic math and verbal.

10) much of the application process depends on what state you come from. some medical schools say they have a lower MCAT average but that is highly misleading. to my knowledge, california and new york residents have it tough.

11) after all that, the best bet is a good undergrad education at a good US school. work hard, enjoy life and maintain good grades. if in the end, your MCAT scores dont pan out, good foreign schools will still be there for you. their MCAT scores are closer to the 24 category.

i wish you the best of luck!

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

I agree with everything HMS said.
As an FMG myself, I can tell you it's an option to consider only if you cannot get a spot at any U.S. or Canadian school.

By Rishi718 (Rishi718) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit

thanx guys, u rule

By Wizzard (Wizzard) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 04:27 pm: Edit

To Psedrish MD

You said on an earlier post that:
"You will be recognized in the Residency selection process as an FMG and be at a distinct disadvantage for high power specialties (eg., derm, ortho, neurosurg) and in highly desired locales."
What does this specifically mean. Im planning on going to a Foerign Med. school and want to come back to the US to do a specialty in neurosurgery. Is it posible?

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Neurosurgery is unlikely. Not impossible, but very, very unlikely. Were you to find a spot in a neurosurgery pgm, it would probably be in a place like North Dakota.

By Happylibu (Happylibu) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 06:15 pm: Edit

any one who is indian in nationality then, i advice that you go to india to earn your medical degree. every one has to write the same usmle exam, even if you are from US or from a foreign country. usmle exam is needed to get license. if i am wrong please correct me. because i am plannig to go to india.

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Get your degree in the country where you expect to practice, if at all possible. Anything else creates obstacles that while not impossible to overcome, certainly make your path that much harder.

By Happylibu (Happylibu) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 01:26 am: Edit

i guess you are right in saying that. it can surely make your path harder. Thank You.

By Wizzard (Wizzard) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

To Happylibu:

I am also Indian nationality and am thinking about going to an Indian Medical school. I know that I have to take my usmle in the US. Can you explain the process. How many years do you spend? When do you come to the US to take you USMLE's. And other requirements. By the way, what Medical School do you have in mind in India. Do Medical schools in India require you take take an enterance test if you pay the fee?

By Wizzard (Wizzard) on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

Can someone tell what is the passing rate for the USMLE 1 for foreign students.

By Suggachillie (Suggachillie) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 01:54 am: Edit

CAN ANYONE PLEASE TELL ME SITE FOR A DISCUSSION BORAD FOR THOSE PREPARING FOR THE USMLE?......this site has a great d.board for the SATs but the usmle discussion here is a big fat zilch......ANY HELP PLZ??

By Astartfwd (Astartfwd) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Valuemd.com is a good place...

Ok can anyone weigh me in for AUC or St. George's....what would you choose and why please?

By Luda (Luda) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 04:26 pm: Edit

It seems that any US med. school is a much better option than any of the foreign medical schools. Thus is there such a big difference between say Harvard Medical School and University of Cincinatti. Both are US med. schools giving M.D. degrees. It's possible to get a neurosurgery residency coming from U Cincinatti right? Is it true that all US medical schools have basically the same curriculum and give about equal training in becoming a better doctor? And, will a HMS degree be worth more than a Cincinatti M.D. degree for example in terms of money/prestige? Thank you very much

By Astartfwd (Astartfwd) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Allright Luda, if all of us had the choice of opting for a US medical school like Harvard or even Cincinatti there is no doubt what we would choose. But, seeing as those options are available for only the worthy few, others opt for foreign medical schools. No one is arguing the advantage of a Harvard degree here, so Im having a hard time understanding why you even felt that it was necessary to make that point. Yet, in the world of daily medical practice, I feel that there would hardly be any discrimination on the basis of where you got your medical degree...what matters is what kind of doctor you turn out to be, not where you got your degree from. None of the doctors Ive been to have ever announced what medical school they graduated from.

By Astartfwd (Astartfwd) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:19 am: Edit

Umm...my question still stands...about the AUC (American University of the Carribbeans) or St. George's thing, I would just like to get this board's opinions on both schools. I think St. George's might have higher prestige, but AUC has everything St. George's has to offer (even rotations in NY which are hard to come by) and is accepted in all 50 states, a comparable USMLE Step 1 pass rate and a heck of a lot more to offer in island life! Ive heard that the Grenadians have nothing to do literally, except for the beach while AUC is more of a party island. Is the higher name recognition/prestige of St George's worth all the extra money paid over AUC?

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 09:33 am: Edit

Asta: I think it makes little difference. Go where you feel more comfortable. In truth, what matters is how you fare academically. In that regard, the atmosphere is important, as students who are depressed while in these foreign schools seem to have a high drop-out and failure rate.
The best and brightest and hardest working at these schools, regardless of their nationality of course, are going to be fine docs and will, if they choose, find a residency spot in their chosen specialty somewhere stateside.

My own group from the University of Monterrey in Mexico was made up of just over 200 students on day one. There were about 6 Americans and a lot of very rich kids from Venezuela. Mexicans made up about 1/3 of the class.
On graduation day, there were 37 of us left, just 2 being Americans.

By Medkid (Medkid) on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Hey,

I just sent my application for this 5 year medical program in Karachi, Pakistan. Anyone else apply? Anyone know anything about the program?

By Peekaboo59 (Peekaboo59) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Hi. Im new. I am a senior in High School. My parents want me to go to the combined Carribean medical program and I dont really want to go over there. Can anyone tell what it is like? I heard its only 4 years, but im not really sure. I want to go to school some where in New York and just do undergraduate here, take my MCATS, and go to med school but some people are telling me that pre-med is not worth it unless i get into a combined program. Im so confused!

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 07:59 pm: Edit

You do not want to go to the Caribbean unless you cannot get into a school in the States or Canada. Going offshore makes you a second class citizen in the world of American medicine.

By Peekaboo59 (Peekaboo59) on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 09:26 pm: Edit

What would be my next step if i dont get into a program? If i get regular admission to a suny or a private school should i just major as a pre-med or biology?

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 09:02 am: Edit

For this, please read the archives. We've covered the question many times.

By Faizzan (Faizzan) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:26 pm: Edit

What are your thoughts of St. James School of Medicine it is located in the carribeans in Bonaire antiquilles. Is it worth going to??? Just want to hear the boards thought. Thank You

By M4ttjabz (M4ttjabz) on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit

sjsm is very new, they have yet to have a class that started as freshmen graduate. the only graduates they have are those that transfered during clinical years. they have a combined 5 year premed/med program that would most likely not be accpeted for licensure in any state.

they are not accepted for licensure in TX, CA, or other states that use the CA list (ie. CO, NM,etc.). they do not even use cadavers due to a local ordinance on Bonaire. I would be very leary about attending such a new school. Stick to the big three (SGU, AUC, ROSS), and maybe SABA.

-Matt

By Faizzan (Faizzan) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

Matt: Thank You for your input. I was wondering if you would know if i happen to enter the premed/med program will i be able to get licensure in states such like NY, NJ, Conn, MD, Virginia, NC,SC, Fl?

If you can post the link to where this information can be found. It would be helpful. Thank You

Faizzan

By M4ttjabz (M4ttjabz) on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 06:54 pm: Edit

As I stated, their premed program would be considered questionable by most if not all of the state medical boards. Regarding individual states, you'd have to contact each state to determine their minimum requirements. As ground rules, most states requie at the very minimum:

1.60-90 Undergraduate Premed Credit Hours
2.USMLE Steps 1-3
3.ECFMG Certification
-for this, your school must be listed by the WHO.
4.1-5 years of Post Graduate Medical Training (ie. Residency)

Some states also require that your clinical rotations be done in ACGME listed schools or on the campus of your own medical school, and since most caribbean medical schools do not have on campus hospitals with clinical rotations, the ACGME rule would apply.

Studying medicine abroad should be a last resort, If you don't matriculate into an American MD/DO school, then apply to GRADUATE programs at schools such as AUC, SGU, ROSS, a handful of Mexican schools that were set up to train Mexican doctors, Austrailian Schools, or Irish Schools.

-Matt

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 08:52 am: Edit

Matt's advice is sound. I would add that European schools are also an option (or were), especially those in Belgium, France & Spain.
The Mexican schools worth looking into are those in Monterrey, Mexico City & Guadalajara, with the one in Guad being the most American-friendly.
Overall Matt thanks for a good summary!

By Faizzan (Faizzan) on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Thank you Matt and Psedrish

I would like to bring to attention that these questions about foriegn medical schools are for my brother. who has had a rigid travel in terms of academic experience. In high school he was superb....but when family problems emerged he was affected severly. and thus was unable to concentrate in college...however lately he is doing better and better.

but in my humble opinion....med school admissions in the U.S./Canada should be dismissed.

your thoughts have been helpful. iw as wondering if irish med schools were good?

thank you once again for your suggestions and inputs

Faizzan

By Sk6488 (Sk6488) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 12:02 am: Edit

where can i get some advice on immigration regarding doctors?

By Happeepanda (Happeepanda) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 02:28 am: Edit

this may be slightly off topic, but would it affect my chances at a US medical school if I went for undergraduate school in Hong Kong??

Will I be considered an FMG if I do undergraduate schooling in Hong Kong, but Medical School in the US?

By Happeepanda (Happeepanda) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 02:56 am: Edit

wait...what exactly is an FMG?

By Sk6488 (Sk6488) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

it means you did med school outside the US.

By Happeepanda (Happeepanda) on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 03:07 am: Edit

Could anybody help me please!? Does anybody know the answer to my question? Will I become a "second-class citizen" if I attend school out of the country for my undergraduate education? Will NYU, UCSF, Columbia, Harvard and other medical schools consider my foreign education a liability? Will I meet requirements for entry into medical school?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit

AMCAS does not take foreign transcripts unless they are from study abroad or a school in Canada. So the answer is yes.

By Stluciang17 (Stluciang17) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Hi,

I'm an international student and I was told that it was near impossible for me to get into a med school since they don't accept many. Is this true? and if so what can I do to increase my chances. Also, could you tell me what are the best schools to apply to. Thanks so much

By Indianguy18 (Indianguy18) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Yes it is almost impossible unless you are one of the top most student in the country with exceptional stats. My cousin applied from India with a top national rankings and he didn't make it.
One other problem is that there are very less number of visas been given out to foreign students so your chances might be even lower.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

could u get an orthopedic surgery residency from a foreign medical school?

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:22 am: Edit

Bharath: The answer is yes. FMGs have a harder go of it, but it's certainly possible. While an FMG may not get ortho at Mass General, a pretty competent ortho program in a much less desirable part of the country is do-able.

By Pliang (Pliang) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 01:33 am: Edit

Hi,

I'm a high school senior and I'm considering going to a foreign country to study medicine because I heard it takes less time to graduate. I'm a citizen of the People's Republic of China but I hold a U.S. permanent residence card. Do you think it is wise to study in Europe, which I heard doesn't require undergraduate study? Or do you suggest that I stay in the U.S. and study the full eight years? How is a foreign degree percieved in the U.S. medical field today?

Also, how would this affect me exactly in terms of residency? What kind of extra tests do I have to take other than the MCAT? Thank you.

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 09:02 am: Edit

Foreign medical schools remain a viable option for Americans who are unable to secure a place in a U.S. school. Certainly, the academic competition for a spot in a U.S. school is intense now, just as it was years ago.
A significant number of people who truly want to become physicians, if denied a place in the States or in Canada, will seek out an alternative pathway.
Schools in Mexico, the Caribbean and Europe are often open to Americans who meet their requirements for admission. As many of these schools are 6 or 7 year programs that combine both pre-med and med school courses in their curricula, North American students generally are accepted with little trouble.
However, this "open door policy" does not guarantee the student a degree. In general, foreign schools are less supportive of the student who is having difficulty mastering the material; "sink or swim" might be an appropriate motto for many of these schools.
Students who do well, assuming they pass the USMLE steps 1 & 2 and then obtain an ECFMG certificate (for more detailed info, see: http://www.ecfmg.org), will usually be able to get a spot in an ACGME-accredited Internship or Residency program somewhere in North America. It will not likely be the best residency or the best place.
At that point, the alternative pathway converges with the traditional pathway, and with successful completion of the training program the foreign educated physician is able to practice with the same rights and privileges as his or her North American educated colleague.