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Hey guys! How are you all doing? Anyway I was hoping that someone would be kind enough to evaluate my chances or tell me where I can get in/should apply for the combined programs (and ivy league if you feel like it too :D )

SAT
780 M 740 V
780 Chem
730 Math IIC
690 Writing HAHA oh well

GPA: 4.7 (out of 4.7)
Rank 1 out of 560
I attend a large public school in Las Vegas, NV

I am confident on my essays/teacher rec's
EC's:
nationally ranked swimmer
poems published
student government
volunteer at hospital
volunteer at opportunity village
chem olympiad
medical explorers
foreign language stuff
nevada state scholars
singing superior ratings

there is a lot more but blah blah, im probably boring you, I think you get the idea.
Anyway thanks very very much!!

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

With the nationally ranked swimming, you stand an excellent chance for the Ivy league. That being said however, you may need more medical experience for a combined program. Good Luck.

By Wobudong (Wobudong) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 05:54 pm: Edit

The top programs: Rice/Baylor, Northwestern, Brown, don't get as hung up on "medical experience" as some others, although you will have to demonstrate a clear commitment to medicine. A leadership role in medically-related volunteer work might be more important than laboratory experience, particularly at Rice/Baylor and Brown, which seem to be looking for a combination of scientific competence and a broad perspective.

By Haan (Haan) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 10:20 am: Edit

Wobudong, can u go into a bit more detail about showing a clear commitment to medicine?

By Curiousstudent (Curiousstudent) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Does anyone know if NYU has a BS/MD program? If so, could you post the link. I'm having trouble finding it. Thanks

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:34 pm: Edit

http://www.nyu.edu/cas/Academic/Programs/bamd/faqs/

By Mahras (Mahras) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Does only Brown have a bs/md program in the ivies or are there others?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 01:47 am: Edit

People really should use the archives to find out such information. Otherwise the forum just becomes a cycle of the same type of questions. If one is really serious about applying to medical programs one should purchase the MSAR, Medical School Admissions Requirements which can be purchased by the AAMC, however there are many hidden programs such as the two other baylor ones besides rice/baylor I posted in the archive from sep-oct.

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Amen!

By Adnanm3 (Adnanm3) on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 07:53 pm: Edit

took sat's 4 times...

1: 520v 670m
2: 600v 690m
3. 590v 700m

4. i think i got 650ish V and 750ish M
so if i pulled a 1400 and i took it 3 times will it still look bad?

1190, 1290, 1290, 1400!

i heard if u take the sat more than 3 times they average your score or somehting??
is that tru?

----------------
rank: 45/380 (it is top 10th percentile, because the lower portion of my school didnt get ranked)
unweighted GPA: 3.726(93.1563)
weighted GPA: 4.0725(101.8128)
SAT II's: chem:690 writing:690 math I:690
ACT: didnt get scores yet guessing 28-30
My resume is great, i volunteered at hospitals, doctors offices, labs, and many ohter places. I also have good recomendations.


are my stats good for any bs/md program?
i need to know some that are a little less competitve because i didnt do that great
also please adress the sat question(took em 4x)

is sophie a little less competitive?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Usually if a med program is less competitive I believe it is more lenient in terms of SAT, but they usually expect very high grades. I think your best bet is NEUCOM or University of Missouri Kansas City.

By Tro348a (Tro348a) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 07:29 am: Edit

This really hasn't been brought up, but I see that most here are going for the MD only. What of those wanting to do the MD/PhD? I've researched MSTP programs and am actually currently in a Bac/MD program, but I wanted to ask: how many MD/PhD programs do people typically apply to? I already know there's no point in asking how well I need to do GPA- and MCAT-wise; excellent is good; perfect is better...

By Adnanm3 (Adnanm3) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 03:27 pm: Edit

if i live in ny would neucom accept me?

or are they very partial to people from ohio

and with the neucom app...i have an application for neucom but do i have to apply to the colleges too like ohio state or kent or whatever

or just fill out the neucome app?

By Dr_Slc (Dr_Slc) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 07:46 pm: Edit

MY chances at B/MD programs?
I am applying the USC Bac/MD, NOrthwestern HPME, Boston University 7-year program, u. rochester REMS, Case Western PPSP, George Washington bs/md, Rice/Baylor.

GPA: 3.97 uw
4.51 (weighted the UC-way)
SAT 1: 720v 780m, 1500t
SAT IIs:
Math IIC: 800
Writing: 800
Bio: 740
Chem: 760

Briefly ECs
biomedical research (4 years)
medical center volunteer (4 years)
church services
piano performance (performed in concert locally and in europe)
christian fellowship club (club pres)
biomedical sciences club (founder, pres)
science olympiad (founder, pres)
national honor society (inductee, just member)
california scholarship fed (just member)
peer tutor

awards:
science fair : 1st at school, 1st at county, 1st at state

piano- small competitions, concerto competition

siemens westinghouse semifinalist (www.siemens-foundation.org) (top <300)

bausch and lomb honorary science award
CA governor's scholar

that's mainly it...
applied harvard EA and now am concentrating on b/md programs
comments?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 09:31 pm: Edit

You have a chance, I have seen people with better stats not get an interview at my program as well as people with lower stats get in. How many AP's have you taken, any college courses? Are you asian? If so you are at a disadvantage but of course you cannot change that, however just a heads up. You will most likely get some interviews. Good Luck

By Dr_Slc (Dr_Slc) on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 11:21 pm: Edit

I go to a public, yet sometimes called "magnet" school in California, I'm chinese, only offers AP English and AP Spanish on a regular basis...last year...had special class (3 kids) in Chem AP (got a 4)...I'm doing AP English and AP Spanish this year

I've actually had 33 courses at local colleges (only 3.86 GPA, though)

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:20 am: Edit

Nice, with the courses at local colleges! For HPME I believe having AP bio,chem,physics and english are really important. If you have the equivalent thats fine too I believe. However, on the card for HPME they ask you specifically if you had AP bio,physics, and chem so I do not know if you would be at a disadvantage by leaving two of them unchecked. It is so damn hard to predict chances for these programs becuase for example NYU last year took 4 kids out of 800. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES. Rice takes 10, Case takes 15, etc. Northwestern or Brown take more, but more apply to those also. There are two other programs in texas that feed into Baylor medical school, which I'm sure are less competitive, one of them even offers free tuition to Baylor. I has posted on these programs last month. Also Rice/Baylor is a program that has a political agenda, it wants to southern texas to have more doctors. 7 out of the 10 or so are going to be from in state, so I think it is really unlikely. However, you never know unless you apply. I think an outstanding essay is absolutely critical to get an interview. Becuase that maybe one of the few things to distinguish between the kids at this level. I like your strategy though, only applying to the good med programs. If you work hard at a good ugrad, most likely you will get into a top50 med school. Programs like NEOUCOM, stonybrook, siena etc. are wastes of time in my opinion.

By Dr_Slc (Dr_Slc) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:48 am: Edit

cool...thanks...also..which programs did you apply to? where'd you interview? and where'd you get in? (both combined programs and then universities in general)

+ if possible...brief overview of stats?

thanks so much

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:24 am: Edit

I applied to Brown, HPME, Rice/Baylor, Case Western, NEOUCOM (last minute, actually day after deadline), PSU/Jefferson. I had interviews at Case and PSU/Jefferson and got into Case only. I got into Northwestern ugrad but not Brown or Rice. As for regular universities I did not get into my first choice Yale, or HPS, so I enrolled @ Duke, but then got into Case so I chose it. Overview of stats. 1500+ SAT, top 6%, toyota community scholar, played violin at carnegie hall, shadowed 2 doctors. No Research.

By Gangsta (Gangsta) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Other top programs that fit your credentials include Brown PLME, RPI Physician-Scientist 7-yr program, and PSU/Jeffreson. Apply to these three also.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 05:11 pm: Edit

PSU/Jefferson and RPI are not good. I feel I made a huge mistake applying to PSU and an even bigger mistake going to the interview. Jefferson is an unbelievably •••••• school/program. You have to go to school during the summers, you have to take the MCAT, Jefferson is barely in the top 50. Albany medical school is barely top 50, also who wants to go to Renselear polytechnic instititue, where and who is that? I heard you have to do extensive research? That doesn's sounds like a stress reliever.

By Biomed (Biomed) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Does the kind of volunteering work in the hospital matter? If so, what kind is most impressive, or most positively viewed by the admission officers?
Also where do I have a good chance of getting in?
SAT I 720/760
SAT II 2c/chem/bio/writing- 790/790/770/660
Top 5% at a competitive high school
I am an international student who have lived in the U.S for 5 years. English is my second language(I have only started to learn English about 5 years ago)...do u think this will affect my chance?

By Momof3boys (Momof3boys) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Tell me more about PSU-Jefferson. S is applying to a few bs/md programs, including Brown, Rice/Baylor, Case, & Northwestern and then one more---maybe either PSU, U Miami or GWU. U Rochester and Boston U were on his list but he dropped them off for various reasons. He wants to add a "safety" bs/md (is there such a thing?) and was thinking of PSU, UM or GW. Thoughts or advice? His stats are strong, some research, and okay ECs.

Thanks!

By Cutie911 (Cutie911) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:03 am: Edit

hey i was wondering if you guys would please evaluate my chances at a combined/accelerated program? i'm a sophomore, so i don't have my SAT's scores yet, but im aiming for a 2300 (new SAT) and at least a 700 on SAT II's. well, here it goes;

UW GPA: 4.0
W GPA: 4.9
Class Rank: 7/420
VERY competitive high school (one of best in NJ)

have taken all honors/AP classess except gym/band

EC's
Amnesty International (member)
Class Treasurer
S.A.D.D. (member)
Reporter for School newspaper
Political Science Club (no officers, but VERY active in club)
Junior Statesmen of America (Founder, president)
Cazeo t-shirt buisness (co- founder, co- president)
Karate- 10 years black belt, have won several district awards (will this help a lot because i'm a girl?)
Student Citizen Coalition
Track and Field
Mentor to Kids w/ special eudcation classfication
Teacher's Aide in Spanish

thanks, all info appreciated!

By Cutie911 (Cutie911) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:07 am: Edit

biomed= what are your EC's, all the scores except the writing look good though

mom- PSU is a very good program, but i think you have to have an extremely high score on the MCAT's to get into their med school from the program, i don't know if there is a safety program, b/c all the programs are very tough, but NEOCOM, or something like that, is one ofthe easier ones, you might also want to try SUNY

By Biomed (Biomed) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit

Medical Related Ec's:
Volunteering in Hospital (just started though)
Red Cross Blood Drive (for only a short period)
I was in a Medical Focus Summer program and took college credit courses in Hopkins past summer, does this count?
Others:
Pres of science league and art honor society. Active member in science/fine arts related clubs and activities
Won awards for math, science competitions, latin competions, and art competitions

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 03:02 am: Edit

The PSU/Jefferson is a 6 year program, 2 years at Penn State w/extended school year and required MCAT. You must have a 1450 and top 10% to even apply. Out of those they select the top 10% of applicants which is around 200. From there the interviews select the top 20. It is not a safety program at all, and infact is one of the hardest. However it is based more on numbers then anything else so this may be better for some. There are no safety med programs. However there are ones that are indeed less competitive, but their low acceptance rates cannot be labeled as safeties.

Edited: This board is meant to be informational, not judgmental. If you have nothing nice or helpful to say, say nothing. P. Sedrish, M.D.

By Doctordoctor (Doctordoctor) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

I was wondering whether anyone knew the link to obtain information about the Case Western accelerated med program. Thanks

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 07:41 am: Edit

http://www.cwru.edu/provost/ugadmiss/ppsp.html

By Iamthewalrus (Iamthewalrus) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit

Do I have a chance at the 7 year Rutgers program, the 7 year Drexel program or the NEOCUM program?

Sat: 1530

SatII: 770 Writing
720 Math
690 Physics

Gpa: 3.83 UW

rank: 20/550

EC: over 300 hours of volunteer
UPENN BioTechnician

various awards

i don't live in PA and im an indian male and i like the beatles

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Evaluating someone's chances is inherently judegemental and that goes on all the time, so I feel that I have not crossed any boundaries. In addition, parents putting too much pressure on kids is a significant problem and has been addressed not only in books about Ivy league admissions such as "A is for Admission" but in others focused on medical programs. Being critical is being helpful, being nice and sugar coating situations and chances is doing a disservice to everyone. My 2 cents.

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 05:46 pm: Edit

My 2 cents: keep it nice or it's gone, and I don't think you're in any position to judge.
P Sedrish, M.D.
Moderator

By Kvm (Kvm) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Where can I find a list of public and private universities in California offering BA/MD programs?

By Iamthewalrus (Iamthewalrus) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

can anyone give me info on the VCU 8-year program?

By Cutie911 (Cutie911) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 07:29 pm: Edit

hey;
i'm just re-posting this b/c no one really responded when i posted my stats- i'm a sophomore, no SAT's yet

UW GPA: 4.0
W GPA: 4.9
Class Rank: 7/420
VERY competitive high school (one of best in NJ)

have taken all honors/AP classess except gym/band

EC's
Amnesty International (member)
Class Treasurer
S.A.D.D. (member)
Reporter for School newspaper
Political Science Club (no officers, but VERY active in club)
Junior Statesmen of America (Founder, president)
Cazeo t-shirt buisness (co- founder, co- president)
Karate- 10 years black belt, have won several district awards
Student Citizen Coalition
Track and Field
Mentor to Kids w/ special eudcation classfication
Teacher's Aide in Spanish

thanks, all info appreciated!

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Sorry you are right, I am in no position to judge, especially since moms commonly express more interest in med programs than the kids applying. Anyways off the top of my head there is USC, UCSD, and UCriverside

By Nobel (Nobel) on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 07:56 pm: Edit

UCLA is also there.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 01:23 am: Edit

well UCLA is there, but the undergrad is UC riverside, and it is not really a program. The way that one works is out of the "scholars" who get into the program they must compete among each other for spots at UCLA, it is not guaranteed, it just sets out requirements and then you must compete in an interview for the spots. If you are ok with UC riverside then you will have dramatically improved chances for UCLA med school.

By Nobel (Nobel) on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 06:52 pm: Edit

ah, i see...
thanx for the keeping me upto date, Bharath.

By Nobel (Nobel) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 09:40 pm: Edit

It is quite in this thread....no voice in over a long time of 3 days....so, to break the vow of silence.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

yeah fo real

By Nobel (Nobel) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Bharath:

It seems u and I are the only ones visiting this webpage. Tell me, how life is in Case Western. From what you have told us, it seems to be one of the best in the nation. Last year, I was certain that I wanted to enroll in a BS/MD program. Currently, actively taking part in research on cancer is attracting me more and more to go to an ivy league undergrad school and apply for MD/Ph.D program. What do you think is best for me? Will you advise me on a certain path that may be better?

I greatly appreciate your advises and help.

Later Man.

By Luda (Luda) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Hi, I'm also currently enrolled in a BS/MD program. I was accepted to top undergrads including some ivies, but I chose a BS/MD program for a number of reasons. First of all, many doctors I talked with told me that when given the opportunity for this BS/MD route, I should take it. My program is 7-years so I save one year of tuition. Residency placement for the 7-yr program students is extremely good since everyone in the program is at the top in medical school. Many people in the 7-yr program have gone to top medical centers in various departments. By going through the combined program, I don't have to endure the stress that pre-meds go through. When you're a hs senior, you won't understand the amount of work and stress that pre-med at top undergrads require. You may be telling yourself that you'll work really hard and do well. But, when you're going through with it, it's extremely difficult and your hardwork may not suffice. And, in 10 years, when you have earned your MD and are doing residency or practicing, the undergrad and med. school that you went to irrelevant. No one will care if you went to an ivy undergrad or a top medical school. What matters is your achievements wherever. You'll be working side by side people who came from all over the place. So my advice to you Nobel is to apply to all these places and see where you get in. Many people get into ivies and rejected from the bs/md programs and the other way around so you don't know your options at this stage of the game.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Yeah I agree with Luda completely. Also research opportunities at medical programs are equal if not greater than those at ivies. Life at Case Western is overall great. The parties are not the best but there are many fun, intelligent, and interesting people. The campus is gorgeous and the city is really fun. If you get into HYP, or stanford MIT and Caltech, and you have your eyes set on going there then I think you should. However, lower ivies are not worth it. Also, there are many kids who turn down Harvard etc. for programs just as there are many kids who turn down programs for Harvard.

By Arby (Arby) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 05:11 pm: Edit

How is the penn state/jefferson program? How does it compare with the others?

By Biomed (Biomed) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

If you want to go into one of the most competitive medical field, is it more helpful to do well in a prestigious medical school such as HMS, JHU, UCSF or in a mediocre med school that most of the acclerated/combined program offers?

By Nobel (Nobel) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Thanx Luda and Bharath:

I will apply to the BS/MD programs and the IVY league schools. Only 4 years ago, I moved to U.S. from India. When I was a child, I remember my uncle telling me about electricity (since, he was an electrical engineer) and how it was discovered and currently used. During these sessions, i rember him mentioning about nulear reactors and how man currently possess the ability to harness energy from the fission of atoms. I came from a small village in India, only with 100,000 people. Most of us were small farmers. When I came to U.S., I did extensive reading on how they produced electricity from the fission process. Reading had led me to University of Chicago. From the moment I went into its website, I completely fell in love with it. And now, i am some what afraid to say NO to my father, since it was his and my grandfathers dream for me to be doctor. Because of this, I want to achieve a Ph.D in chemistry or Bio Chemistry (to please them) along with MD. But, enough of my stories....i greatly thank you Bharath and Luda for your constructive advises. I will try my best to excell, and reach these schools.

Thanx.

By Hms (Hms) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 08:40 pm: Edit

biomed,

many things are taken into consideration when residency program directors choose among a wealth of qualified applicants.

for US applicants, these are generally what they look for:

-med school attended
-USMLE board scores
-AOA (med school honors)
-recommendations
-good cv
-grades (to lesser extent)
-research, if any
-rotation at the facility of choice

thus, there are several factors that influence who is chosen. let me illustrate with 2 fictitious candidates:

lets say 2 applicants are applying for a lone spot at a very competitive otolaryngology residency in california. here are the 2 applicants:
#1
Name: Joe
School: Yale Med
USMLE: 220 Step I, 225 Step II
no AOA (since its very difficult to graduate with honors in competition with others at Yale)
decent recommendations from worldclass a faculty
no rotations at facility

#2
Name: Bob
School: Jefferson Med
USMLE: 240 Step I, 250 Step II
AOA
decent recommendations from Jefferson faculty
one 6 week rotation at facility


given these 2 applicants...there is no doubt in my mind that the PD would choose Bob. Bob may have gone to a "lesser" school but he made better board scores and rotated through.


i realize many of you are still in high school so let me give you a similar example...answering the question of whether it is better to goto a great private school or a local high school.

lets pretend that both applicants are applying to Stanford University.

#1
Name: Sally
School: Philips Andover Academy
GPA: 3.7
SAT: 1400
good recs
good ecs


#2
Name: Julie
School: Bayside High School
GPA: 4.0
SAT: 1550
good recs
good ecs


in this case, with interviewing skills equal...i think i'd give the nod to julie.

just like the SAT is supposed to be the great equilizer (debatable or in question by some critics) for college entrance for applicants from varying schools, likewise, the USMLE board scores are supposed to be the great equilizer for residency applicants.

so bottom line...even if you goto the worst US medical school, you can beat out a harvard grad for a spot by having better board scores and rotating through.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Nobel, to be honest if you love the University of Chicago that much go there! Actually the University of Chicago has a program that will give you acceptance to its medical school given that you met certain requirements. It is by no means a guarantee, however if you are there anyways, it is a great benefit. Please look into this too. As a fellow indian I understand the intense pressure to become a doctor. However, if you love electricity you owe it to yourself to pursue your intellectual fantasies. Besides we need more Indians in business and in government than in medicine and engineering. Best of Luck.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 09:08 pm: Edit

The PSU/Jefferson is an excellent 6 year medical program. However at my interview there I was wholly underimpressed with both the facilities and the program itself. First of all you have to take the MCAT, you must attend school during the summers, and maintain a high GPA, next Jefferson Medical School is good but certainly not great. This program is very competitive, to even apply you need a 1440 in one sitting plus being in the top ten % at your school. Out of these people 10% or about 200 get interviews, and out of these 20 or 10% get spots. I personally think the program is a waste of time due to the lack of prestige in the medical school, however if one cares about length the most this is a great program.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 09:14 pm: Edit

If you want a high powered career in academic medicine then doing well at HMS, JHU, or UCSF is most important. However, if you just want to practice dermatology or neurosurgery there is no need at all to go to HMS. Some medical schools are sooo research oriented that you may receive a subpar primary care experience. My goal is to practice Orthopedic Surgery in a Suburban/Urban town, I don't want to be director of the CDC, or Surgeon General. Therefore I am content to go to CWRU medical school.

By Biomed (Biomed) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 10:53 pm: Edit

Wow, thanks, HMS and Bharath2007.
HMS- I understand the examples. However, in a situation where everything else look the same except for the reputation of the school, will Joe triumph?
I personally want to go into the field of dermatology in big cities such as NYC, Boston, LA or, San Francisco, and develop my own line of cosmetics/skincare. If I work my ass off either way, will it be better for me to wait for four years to get into a prestigious medcial school or attend a somewhat reputable combined medical program, such as Albany, UMDNJ, or other non-ranked med school.

By Nobel (Nobel) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Thanks for the help, Bharath:

I will look into the program in University of Chicago.

By Luda (Luda) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

Bharath2007, I don't agree with a couple points you make about BS/MD programs. You are overly stressing the importance of the medical school. EVEN IF you wanted to do research at a top place, you can still do it coming out of any medical school. You are correct that you can go into any field (ie, neurosurgery, derm, orthopedic surgery, etc) coming out of any medical school. But this is also true for research. You can get the exposure although you may have to work a little harder at the lesser well known med. schools. Nevertheless, you're not limited to only practice by going to med. schools beside Harvard, UCSF, etc. That's completely FALSE.

By Hms (Hms) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 02:25 am: Edit

bharath - i wouldnt be so quick to judge the quality of jefferson med's "prestige"...especially for someone who wants to do orthopedic surgery! jefferson ALWAYS matches well in that field, in fact, they had 12 ortho matches this year...3 times the amount case western had. jefferson traditionally matches extremely well, even in the most competitive fields. a quick look at their match list will show lots of competitive matches, including optho, derm and urology. the reason i speak highly of jefferson med is because of all the excellent alumni that i have met from that school. in fact, possibly the hardest match to get at harvard this year (plastic surgery), was earned by a jefferson med grad.

biomed - yes, all things being equal, joe has the better shot. also, derm is an extremely competitive residency to get simply due to the limited number of spots available out there. inevitably, the most prestigious medical schools take the lions-share of the spots...especially in the major metropolitan cities you mentioned. the chances of anyone matching into derm in boston or san fran while coming from a "lesser" med school this year was slim to none. i'm not saying that its impossible for anyone at a 3rd tier med school to get derm...just dont expect it to be at the locations you mentioned. for example, jefferson med matched very well in derm this year. they had 4 matches while the national average for US medical schools was 2. where did these grads match? one each in new jersey, pennsylvania, ohio and minnesota. on the other hand, harvard matched 14 into derm...in cities such as boston, nyc and la.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Luda, You are not completely limited, but a greater proportion of those who go on to big careers in academic medicine will be from top 10 schools. You are not forced to practice if you go to a non top ten school. Also some schools emphasize primary care and some emphasize research, if you told Michigan State University medical school that you wanted to research during your interview you would probably be rejected. This school along with many others has a goal of producing and recruiting primary care physicians. At schools like these it is possible to do high level research, but it is not likely. Almost 95% of these kids WILL PRACTICE. Of course there are always exceptions but some schools focus on certain things, and they also have strengths and weaknessess in certain areas.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

First of all the match is a function of the students performance in med school, with little or no bearing on the name of the school. Perhaps Jefferson had a great match...great. However, I think prestige is based on the quality of the medical school overall and its approach to learning. For example Case Western, Wake Forest, and University of Rochester got perfect scores by the LCME for their outstanding medical school curriculums and facilities. Harvard, JHU,UCSF and Jefferson did not receive these distinctions. Second Jefferson is not pass/fail it is graded. So of course the top kids at Jefferson will get great matches, but what happens to the rest, will the name of "Jefferson" carry that much weight...no. You look at the prestige of medical schools in terms of just the match, whereas I look at them more holistically. The match is simply one aspect that comprises a medical schools prestige. Quality of education, name recognition, affiliated hospitals, alumni, etc. are more indicative than just the match alone.

By Hms (Hms) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 06:52 pm: Edit

i see what you are saying about prestige...using quality of education, name recognition, affiliated hospitals...okay.

you pose an interesting point though, the average jefferson med student, according to you, has relatively no prestige. well, then, the same could be said about the average case student.

lets face it, the true top tier med schools are few and far between. there isnt much wiggle room in the top 10-15 schools. harvard, hopkins, ucsf, penn, duke, columbia, stanford, michigan, cornell and yale are examples.

then comes the next tier consisting of nearly 30-40 schools with relatively similar presige levels depending on what part of the country you are in. case western is much closer to jefferson than to any of the above. ask most people if case is closer to harvard or closer to jefferson. case western, nyu, bu, tufts, georgetown, jefferson are more likely lumped together. yes, jefferson is a top 50 medical school. so plese dont dismiss jefferson as being a "waste of time due to the lack of prestige."

i've acknowledged that jefferson is a great choice and a quality medical institution. its not right to "poo-poo" them because you think you go to a better school. any prospective considering med school should realize that schools like jefferson, albany, downstate and neoucom are not a waste of time...they are fabulous institutions.

see how subjective everything is? my take on medical school is such that med school means virtually nothing in terms of practicing the art. for all intents and purposes, med school allows you to be properly certified to sit for the USMLE examination. thats basically it. most of the practical medicine you will use and practice will be taught to you during residency. that is why i value the match above all things when ranking med schools.

that is also the reason i stress that getting a medical degree from the US is very important. that is not to say that foreign medical schools stink...rather, it is no secret that getting competitive residencies for foreign grads is much harder than for US grads. but when some one those foreign grads break through and get top spots...watch out! they are amazing. in fact, the best physician i've met in my life happens to be a cardiologist from poland.

so, bottom line...dont underestimate schools, people and their abilities.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 07:28 pm: Edit

People do not have prestige, I dont know where you got that from becuase I never said anything about student having or lacking prestige. Also your definition of the top 15 medical schools is based on USNEWS which is flawed beyond belief. I am criticizing Jefferson in the context of its combined medical program. As I have said before, if one wants to obtain an M.D in the shortest time possible then the PSU/Jefferson program is a good choice since Jefferson is in the "top 50" if that is a standard that can be used to evaluate quality. I feel it is not. When I interviewed there I was unimpressed by the lackluster facilities. For example there was a ratty old lazy-boy sitting in the middle of the lecture hall, and the current student was explaining how it had sentimental value...no. I want to learn in a serious and sophisticated learning environment. Case Western was given the highest score by the LCME, along with Wake Forest and University of Rochester. This is more indicative of a quality med school than any thing you have put forth so far. Neoucom for example is waste of time for a highly motivated ivy-caliber student who is choosing a medical program. Most kids would never attend such a school even after attending undergrad at ______ university. I can understand applying there as a safety or for someone with lower stats, but most here would generally agree that it is not the most desirable place to be. Case Western is not the best medical school by any means and if it seems if I am trolling, I completely acknowledge the superiority of other schools. In fact I believe Duke is the best, for many reasons. However, if one must use the USNEWS rankings, Case last year had no formal affiliations at time of ranking, now it has University Hospitals as well as the world renowned Cleveland Clinic, which should give the highest number of NIH grants in the nation. Second it has received the HIGHEST score by the LCME which accredits medical schools. Third, most kids who are eligible for the program will get 21,500 a year in merit scholarship. Fourth, the program is flexible and the medical school is pass/fail. These are the reasons why I feel that the PPSP Medicine program is excellent. Thank you for letting us know that the best cardiologist you know is from Poland, as if someone from another country is expected to be less competent.

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 08:17 pm: Edit

The concept of a best medical school is itself flawed. Virtually all med schools will offer more opportunities to learn than almost any student could take advantage of in four years.
Great schools will have some unmotivated professors & some with overriding personal issues that preclude good teaching, while many so-called mediocre schools will have some teachers with a gift for explaining things.
In any case, the materia prima of any clinical rotation is the patient base, and a lot of inner city med schools that may lack prestige in this or that ranking or poll will offer the student more pathology per day than many lofty institutions can offer in a year.
In addition, the presence of an over-abundance of highly touted faculty and fellows may in fact work against a student, as their role in that setting tends to be more that of an observer than that of a doer. As we love to say in medicine, "see one, do one, teach one"; real hands on medicine involves a lot of "OJT".
The bottom line is the cream rises to the top, and a very good student from any U.S. or Canadian med school (and for that matter from any number of foreign schools) will make an excellent physician, while the unmotivated student at the best school will be an uninspired practitioner.
Lastly, a note on Case Western: I did my residency at one of Case's University Circle hospitals, and served there as Chief Resident of Medicine. I've also had the chance to hold faculty rank at 4 other U.S. schools, and while I think fondly of Case, I cannot say a better quality of Medicine was taught or practiced there than at any of the others.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Well the LCME seems to differ from you opinion awarding it the highest score ever. Enough Said.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 03:48 pm: Edit

How many DO programs are available in the U.S? I know there is one at Michigan State University, one of the best D.O schools, but are there more? These are a viable option for many students who would like to become doctors but have lower stats and what not.

By Hms (Hms) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 04:29 pm: Edit

the lcme accreditation scoring is not unlike a superficial fluff award. on what basis and methodology is the score reached? by SURVEY and by a site visit. in my school, a survey was given concerning best old-school candy and now&laters won. they received the highest possible score in our "candy accrediting process."

i dont find it particularly impressive when a school releases a survey to itself resulting in an artificially high rating. i also find it peculiar that one of the officers that does site visits happens to be a case alumni. conflict of interest? lol.

in any case, regardless of scoring a perfect score, a high score or even an adequate score....the only concern necessary is that the LCME accredits the school. thats the bottom line. why is that important? because, according to the by-laws of the USMLE, only students of accreditated schools can sit for the board exams. as far as i know, nearly every school on american and canadian soil gets accreditation.

getting back to the original point at hand...ALL US medical schools are fabulous. one school should not demean another, regardless of the choice of furniture the schools choose to have. lol. as long as the school can produce caring and compassionate physicians willing to carry on a lifelong educational journey, then i say that school is great.

By Spydersport824 (Spydersport824) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Does anyone know much about combined graduate/doctoral degree programs, specifically MD/MBA. I know some good schools that have it are Northwestern, Dartmouth, UPenn, Yale, etc. What are some other good ones and what is the benefit of it if you want to do something like invasive cardiology (not ending up owning a clinic but working in a hospital only.)? I have seen that it only takes around 5 years after undergrad to complete it also, including residency/internships. Can you be that great of a doctor in that short of a time?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 05:20 pm: Edit

hms- survey's are also used by USNews, which you use to categorize schools, and whose survey's are even more flawed and skewed. Since the LCME isn't exactly mainsteam and in the business of selling magazines their methodologies have more credence.

Harvard and Stanford have well regarded programs. I don't see what the benefit is of having an MBA unless one becomes administrator of a hospital or just wants knowledge on business management. If you are working in a hospital only then this becomes even less of an issue. If you can get into an MD/MBA program you should do it, becuase it will not hurt, and having an MBA from such schools as you mentioned may help you get a good job in business if you do not like medicine. What really would be useful is an MD/JD but that would be impossible to finish in four years...

By Spydersport824 (Spydersport824) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 06:50 pm: Edit

thanks for the info. But I am only a junior in high school and was just wondering about it. Do you know the websites to the Harvard and Stanford programs? Also, please respond to my post on "Questions from High School Students" under the "Pre-med and medical school." Thanks again.

By Hms (Hms) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

bharath - dont put words in my mouth. i never mentioned USNEWS...you did. check my last 4 or 5 messages on this thread. it is no secret that harvard, hopkins, ucsf et al are considered top-tier programs. i dont need USNEWS to make that statement.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 09:05 pm: Edit

OK if all med schools are "fabulous", then what makes a top-tier program, just becuase you say it is where is the evidence or the objective measures that demarcate the top from the rest. It is not selectivity or being well known to the public. There must be something that your expertise can let us know about that defines these top programs. What are the best foreign medical schools for U.S citizens?

By Sar (Sar) on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit

What is a MPH degree, what courses/activities does it involve, and is it worth taking a year off from med school and paying to get one?

More specifically, Sophie Davis students can get a MPH from Columbia University, either in the middle of their study or after they get their MD. But... what does the degree mean? What can one *do* with it?

Hms answered this one before, but is there anything else to it? Is it mainly beneficial for research?

Also, a professor has taken heart in my interest in her research. I don't know much about her, but she seems to be... er... suggesting... that I might be able to publish something with her, IF I'm willing to spend one or two days a week in her lab (more than 2 hours each day). She knows that I have never worked in a lab before, and when I asked someone else about her, they said her lab isn't very interesting.

Does anyone know anything about electrodes and activated carbons being able to sense neurotransmitters, or summat like that?

By Spydersport824 (Spydersport824) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 08:54 pm: Edit

How good is SUNY-Stony Brook's Scholars for medicine program? Can you still make it into a good residency and will starting salaries differ much if you do a program like this versus the traditional method?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Absolutely not, you can not only get a good residency but also a well paying job from SUNY's, and for that matter any medical program.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Does anyone have information on good foreign medical schools as well as combined BS or BA/DO programs I only know of two MSU and this other one in Florida?

By Hms (Hms) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

i dont think there are many DO schools that are accredited by the American Osteopathic Association. there is something like 20 of them. of those 20, very few offer combined programs. NYCOM, UNECOM and KCOM are some of these programs. but buyer beware...each program has their own stipulations and regulations...for example, KCOM requires you to have and keep a 3.4 college GPA.

http://www.aoa-net.org/Students/colleges.htm


there are tons of good foreign medical schools. what defines good for one person may not necessarily define good for another. personally, i think that oxford med in the UK is a phenomenal school. australia has some great ones as well.

but these schools are geared for british or aussie clinicians and the british educational system. if the goal is to eventually come back to the US to practice, some schools in the caribbean may suit you better since these schools tend to cater to the US curriculum (hence preparation for the US Boards, the USMLE).

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:45 pm: Edit

What are the best caribbean medical schools, a 3.4! please we have to maintain a 3.6! It's crazy. Yeah I think accelerated DO programs are a good option for those who want to be doctors but whose stats are a lot lower.

By Mrgiggles (Mrgiggles) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 04:36 pm: Edit

<deleted for being pure nonsense. One more, sir, and you will be banned.>

Moderator

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 01:34 pm: Edit

What are the advantages and disadvantages of being a D.O?

By Duperme (Duperme) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 01:05 am: Edit

Question for the MD's:

If I go to a college like the University of Wisconsin-Madison, major in biological sciences, and get a GPA of 3.6, how likely would I be able to get into a top medical school like DUKE?

Would I not have any chance whatsoever, despite my extracurriculars?

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 03:57 am: Edit

no chance unless you get a 35+ MCAT and have excellent reccomendations, you have to understand that people who have 3.8's dont get into duke with 35s....

By Rp22 (Rp22) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 10:09 am: Edit

Hey I am a senior and I am applying to a few combined med programs and a few 4 yr colleges. These are my stats:

SAT: 1510
SAT2's: 750 physics, 710 bio, 710 IC, 710 writing
GPA: 92 unweighted with 12 AP's
EC: Captain of Debate team
- Founder of the Indian club
- research for 4 yrs ( several regional awards)
- Shadowed a gastroenterologist
- spent summers volunteering at hospitals and at research labs
- some other stuff..u get the idea

I am applying to Brown PLME, Rochester, Union, Siena, RPI and Albany, GWU, case Western and several other programs. I'm also applying to few 4 yr colleges: Tufts, Rice, J. hopkins
- What are my chances of getting into these places? I'm asking because I know how competitive these schools are and I don’t wanna end up with no place to go next fall. ..Please help

By Gangsta (Gangsta) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Brown, Rochester, RPI, CWRU are the toughest programs in the list because of the high SAT, GPA averages and the large amount of applicants. These are prolly the reaches. If you get into any one of these, it's def. worth it to take it over any 4 yr college. Brown is well known for it's liberal undergrad education, Rochester-same thing, RPI gives the most research compared to any other med. program in the nation and gives you a MD w/ Distinction in Research DR.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 06:16 pm: Edit

You need to get your SAT 2's up and what is your class rank? Since you are desi, I am assuming, it is critical to write a phenomenal, personal essay that sets you apart from the millions of desis who apply to these programs.

By Duperme (Duperme) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Where and how do I apply for the PennS/Jefferson program??

Can someone give me a link to the application?

By Luda (Luda) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 12:46 am: Edit

Yeah Rp22, alot of desis do apply to these programs so you have to be unique. As gangster said, the harder programs (Brown, Roch, Case, and RPI) get so many applicants so they first cut it down by your sat's and gpa and then they get rid of people using the essay/interview. Your scores are great so you should be able to make the first cut. For you, it's the essay that's really going to matter. Don't worry, you'll def. get in somewhere, at least one med. program with scores like that.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 02:53 am: Edit

I remember this program was really hard to apply to becuase there is not a dedicated website, I think I found out through a FAQ of Penn State or Jefferson, email someone.

By Medicalfanatic (Medicalfanatic) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 02:28 am: Edit

Hey, I have some questions for everyone. I am going to be applying this year to HPME, Case Western, GWU, Drexel, PSU/Jefferson, and Brown BS/MD programs.

Stats:
ACT 32 (1420-1440 SAT equivalent)
SAT IIs: 760 math 2c, 720 writing, 700 chem
Unweighted GPA: 3.75 (class rank 45 out of 620)
VERY good ECs (hospital employee, hospital volunteer previously, awards given to me by medical center, etc.)
I have also taken a ton of community college courses. Took 4 APs last year (4s on Bio, Chem, and Calculus). Also, I have taken 8+ years of science in high school.
Many letters of rec from top doctors.

I sent in request card to HPME and they gave me an application. Drexel is also giving me an app. GWU I am about to send in and PSU/Jefferson I may not make because I didn't know the SAT or ACT had to be "no later than June of your junior year." Applying to Case and Brown very soon.

What are my chances? Is getting the application from HPME a good thing? I am hoping that the quality of classes I took in high school as well as my ECs will carry me.

By Rishi718 (Rishi718) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 06:16 am: Edit

Ok guys i'm new, but ive been reading for awhile, let's get some conversations going about the "why be a doctor essay" that so many of these med programs require. It is clearly one of the major factors and is there anything that can be said that already hasnt been repeated in one way or another. i mean, it is clear that we all want to be doctors, and program or not will become great doctors some day, but putting it into a coherent and interesting essay... within this lies the challenge. it would be best, i believe, to help eachother move forward with this major part of the app

some ideas i had
1) could talk about my grandpa and his many surgeries and his fight with cancer and the doctors he's working with, but this 'grandpa story seems played out'

2) talk about this anatomy book i got when i was a little kid and how i never let go of it and took it everywhere, then lead into how i pursued medical stuff as i got older and maybe add in some opinion about ethics or current medical situations... what ya thnk?

about accelerated BA/DO programs.. there seems to be more than i thought, i knew of two, one in california, one in pennylvania, but i heard of two different ones somewhere else in this discussion. i do think they are slightly less competitive and i believe that we would be able to gain admittance to most of these DO med schools with the traditional route of pre-med, so the main plus would not be so much a guaranteed spot in the med school, but more the saving of time. please, psedrish or hms (hms) correct me if i'm wrong.

another thing, almost all of your guys' questions can be answered or at least helped by gettin some of these books, i got all of them, maybe return the ones i dont use..
1) from high school to med school by ashish raju and jason yanofski- the first book on ba/md programs.

2) med school from high school by ?? i forgot, the book is less freindly than the first one with a similar name, and the info is not what i bought the book for, actually there is a list of 75 ba/md programs in the back of this book which is why most people buy it
3) the high school doctor- pretty good also- more details on the undergrad institutions of ba/md programs
4) the underground guide to foreign medical schools- it's on and off amazon so i havnt got it yet but i hear good things and im gonna buy it

well thanx sooo much guys and please, let's discuss the essay. o ya, ur prolly wnat my stats, i really shootin for the less competitive programs, unfortunately, i live in cali, so the only one i could benefit from is the UCSD one but that one's not very preferential to cali residents anyway b/c they require a 1500, i dont have one but im takin the SAT again in jan, an im gonna call and see if they'll still consider me... it seemed research options were very limited in my area and after about 3 years of begging and pleading, i convinced a professor at WEstern University of health sciences to take me under his wing. im a senior and we are in the process of beginning to organize and work. please be as honest and blunt as u can when u respond or critique me, i promise u wont hurt my feelings. thanx

stats
senior 21/921
4.??
1420
680- writing 790 two c 740 us history
600 chem i really messed up the chem one and im takin bio and writing this dec 6
ec's:
founder and pres of FUTURE md's of america
founder and pres of Ping Pong CLub
key club 4 yrs officer junior yr
jsa 4 yrs officer 10-12
started a small business, sell stuff for people online and take a percentage. 2 yrs
cross country 4 yrs
badminton 4 yrs
just started research
hopital volunteer 2 yrs, since i was old enough
5/5/4 ap tests calc/ us hist/english comp
i am 1 of only 3 ap scholars at my school and have taken all 8 ap courses they offer (we have phys ap, no bio or chem) will med programs care much about what u did with ur oppurtunities like normal college undergrad, or is it more what u have versus what the other person has?

well that's pretty much it, sorry for being so long, hope i helped, please dont worry about making me cry, let's talk about the essay, and i'd highly appreciate some feedback from Psedrish or HMS, thank you

By Rishi718 (Rishi718) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 06:18 am: Edit

u guys can email me at ****************** if u have some feedback and we can exchange aim sn's and phone numbers to get details if you so desire


TOS: No email addresses, phone numbers, etc.

Moderator

By Sar (Sar) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Rishi, I'm no admiss officer, but I think those topics are fine. Just make sure you put your own experiences and lessons into them. Make them your own stories--not just some other sappy medically related essays. The essays become "played out" and meaningless when applicants are too shy to convey their own thoughts through their writing. Some applicants (so I've heard) try to write about a complicated topic they have no grasp of, and would have been better off just explaining what motivated them to decide that medicine is the way of life for them.

about essay 2... what was it about the anatomy book that made you keep it with you for all that time? Do you still have it? What does it mean to you now? If you find medical ethics hard to fit into the essay, don't force it in at the risk of compromising the integrity (focus) of the essay. If you really have strong opinions about current events, write a separate essay and ask if you can send it in, or bring them up during the interview (they'll probably ask you about current events during interviews, anyway).

Depends on the school... i think most of them look for motivation and dedication, and you taking advantage of all your opportunities.

Your writing score may put you at a disadvantage. Try to increase that if it's not too late.

And those books you got... I don't know about them, but skim through them before you return them... you might find some answers to the questions you asked here.

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 02:41 pm: Edit

On essays: keep it real. The folks reading the apps have read every kind of b.s. you can imagine, and one thing they can do in 25 words or less is spot a fake.
Talk about something you really believe in, with words you would really use, and do not offer too many opinions. As always, be humble.
The best topic I can think of is "Why Medicine is the right career for me", though it is a tricky topic. In offering some help I would add this: many physicians complain about this or that, but few could imagine doing anything else.
Good luck.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 05:04 pm: Edit

My essay, which was probably the biggest factor that led to my acceptance at CWRU's PPSP was just a little story about how me and a patient talked while the doctor went out for something. Without giving too much away, it was very personal, somethign no one else could write and it wasnt pretentious or above my level. The best essays are the "slice of life" essays that show and dont tell. You should not tell them why you want to be a doctor... SHOW them, through a personal story.

Medical fanatic- I also received an application to HPME, they just use a formula, index your score and give applications to the top 200 or so.
You still have a ways to go, do a good job on the application, good luck.

Rishi- Where else are you applying? I feel that it is too hard to rate people as far as chances, however, I think the most important things are in descending order Interview, essays, extra curriculars, reccomendations, AP science and english, grades, SAT 2's, SAT.

By Rp22 (Rp22) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Gangsta, luda, Bharath2007 & Dr. Sedrish- Thanks sooo much! Yes I am a desi and i worked pretty hard on my essays so I think that should be ok..and my EC are pretty good..i was an AP scholar with distinction and I also qualified for the AIME in 10th and 11th grade. I have lots of awards and stuff...i just think my SAT2's r a bit low...my school does NOT rank kids so i dont know what my rank is. I have the most AP classes in my grade however (270 kids) so that mite help...keep me posted..and thanks again!!!

By Rishi718 (Rishi718) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 06:26 am: Edit

hey guys, thanx for the essay tips, anybody else got some essay tips (see my last post)

any comments about what i said about the DO programs?

i just came up with an essay idea but i think it might be too risky... and it might go against the being humble ideology but im not sure...

i was going to make it a satire kind of and say i was becoming a doctor solely for the money and the intellectual challanges, releiving human suffering, and making a difference in people's lives had nothing to do with it... kind of tell them the reasons i am becoming a doctor have nothing to do with it and say it's only for the money... i would make the real reasons obvious and clear, i'm just wondering whether the reader would find the essay as cool and funny as i do... is it risky like some would love it and others would hate it? any comments will be greatly appreciated
any comments about what i said about DO programs?

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 10:14 am: Edit

Do not do it. Not.

By Soundasleep (Soundasleep) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 10:56 am: Edit

Bharath2007, did you think your other essay for case western also helped? the one about an experience you're proud of? i think i've gone the general way of just giving examples of how i've helped in the community and how that affects me. is it better to make it one single event like what bharath2007 did?

By Nobel (Nobel) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

Rashi:

I would say you are taking a daring move by doing this "satirical" essay. I do think that the admissions officials know that 90% of the students who apply are there because of the money. If we get real, at the end, it is money that matters. Even though knowing this, I would advise you not to do this because:

1) you are going against the ideals that the medical school has, and these I take from Brown Med. School Weppage.

"We seek students who regard medicine as a noble profession rather than a trade to be learned, as a humanitarian pursuit, as well as a scholarly discipline, and as a unique lifetime experience. Our graduates must be scientifically well-educated, but also capable of approaching problems from a variety of perspectives, drawing upon the methods of analysis of the humanist, the social scientist, and the behavioral scientist. We intend that our students follow in the altruistic tradition of medicine, placing the welfare of their patients and society about self-interest. We teach our students to view the boundaries of medicine to be wide, encompassing all of the factors that lead to human disease, including those of a social, cultural, and economic nature. We exhort our students to act upon these values by engaging themselves actively in the community, exerting leadership by responding to the needs of those they serve."


As we can plainly see, Brown's Med. School rejects the idea of doctors wanting to make money, even though they know the majority acctually comes to make money.

Once again, I would consider Dr. Psedrish's advise: Don't Do it.

By Nobel (Nobel) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

Rashi:

I would say you are taking a daring move by doing this "satirical" essay. I do think that the admissions officials know that 90% of the students who apply are there because of the money. If we get real, at the end, it is money that matters. Even though knowing this, I would advise you not to do this because:

1) you are going against the ideals that the medical school has, and these I take from Brown Med. School Weppage.

"We seek students who regard medicine as a noble profession rather than a trade to be learned, as a humanitarian pursuit, as well as a scholarly discipline, and as a unique lifetime experience. Our graduates must be scientifically well-educated, but also capable of approaching problems from a variety of perspectives, drawing upon the methods of analysis of the humanist, the social scientist, and the behavioral scientist. We intend that our students follow in the altruistic tradition of medicine, placing the welfare of their patients and society about self-interest. We teach our students to view the boundaries of medicine to be wide, encompassing all of the factors that lead to human disease, including those of a social, cultural, and economic nature. We exhort our students to act upon these values by engaging themselves actively in the community, exerting leadership by responding to the needs of those they serve."


As we can plainly see, Brown's Med. School rejects the idea of doctors wanting to make money, even though they know the majority acctually comes to make money.

Once again, I would consider Dr. Psedrish's advise: Don't Do it.

By Nobel (Nobel) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:29 am: Edit

Sorry for the double post

I accidentally clicked the button twise....

By Duperme (Duperme) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:55 am: Edit

When an essay that says something like, "Please tell us of something that impacted you," should I make it medical related so that I can express my interest in the field of medicine? Or should I make it something completely unrelated to med so that I can show my "diverseness" of interests?

I know that many of these programs want students who take a liberal arts approach to med, so does that imply they want their students to be "diverse"?

By Arby (Arby) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 02:06 am: Edit

How is the GW med program? in comparison to other programs? the med school itself?

Thanks.

By Mjd88 (Mjd88) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Hey,
I have some questions regarding some ECs that could be done to increace chances of one getting into a combined BA/MD program. I understand that the grades are imperitive but im sure that there is more that I could be doing after school. Any one who had joined high school Medical programs or won awards in medical reaserch or worked in labs..... or anything along those lines. Anyone just feel free to respond!!

By Hms (Hms) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 05:17 pm: Edit

my suggestion concerning essays:

write vibrantly about the extraordinary things in ordinary events.

you dont want to make anything up or embellish, rather, you want to be able to draw a reader's ear into your writing. i've always found the skill of a great essay-writer to be in finding the extraordinary in the ordinary. no lies, no BS, no fairy tales...simply the truth in vibrant color is all that is necessary.

if you can create a lively essay that describes you in 500 words or less...thats pretty good. the other trap that most students seem to fall into is that they all think that they are "great" writers and can write a "great essay." lol. i've taken a bunch of writing classes while an undergrad and in all my years of reading "harvard caliber" essays, less than 3 were truly great, in my opinion. my point is this..."tricks" and shortcuts can never replace a mediocre essay.

concerning topics:

NEVER talk about money or being able to legally cut someone as reasons to go into medicine.

By Bharath2007 (Bharath2007) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit

I think the best essays are a "slice of life" essay, one that not only show your love for medicine but also explode one particular moment, one that is completely and UNIQUELY personal, that no one else could have. If you comment honestly on a personal event that was meaningful to you, and it shows the enthusiasm, compassion, and vigor of your personality. I feel that you will have a winning essay.