TO ALL ASIANS





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Discus: College Admissions: 2002 - 2003 Archive: March 2003 Archive: TO ALL ASIANS
By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:23 am: Edit

Are there any Asians who are majoring (or plan to major) in the humanities and social sciences and NOT the life/physical sciences and engineering?

By Argen (Argen) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

I have always wanted to major in philosophy..But no, I'm going into Engineering/Business instead. :)

By Kamryn75 (Kamryn75) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Yes, I'm going to major in Anthropology with a concentration in Archaeology, and perhaps minor in Philosophy or Photography. I'm pursuing law school afterwards and hoping to work in public interest law. I want to specialize in children's law which is finally starting to become a field in its own right.

In addition: I hate math, I don't know how to set up a VCR, my family is poor, and I grew up in an abusive home (explaining my interest in children's law)...not your typical asian I guess. :)

By Argen (Argen) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 02:30 pm: Edit

Well, if you are female, then it would make sense. :)

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

The only reason why I introduced this thread was that there are relatively few Asians in the humanites and social sciences. There can be reasons for this discrepency. In the fields of law and psychology, I'm sure many companies will LOVE to hire Asians since they are underrepresented in those areas.

By Hildegard (Hildegard) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Just curious,

I'm not Asian, I'm just curious about this:

Are all the "Asians" above from Chinese origin? Are we talking about Chinese and Japanese Asian, or including every country in Asia, such as Pakistan, Iran, Russia, etc?

BTW, to the person who wrote about children law, that is so cool! I am pursuing almost the same degree. My undergrad will be a major in psych with a minor in philosophy, and then will pursue either Law school or Public Health! I think that is such a cool major.

Out of topic: Do Chinese parents hit their children?

By Incognito (Incognito) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

That's like asking if Black parents send their kids off to the military after HS. It's ridiculous. Perhaps some may send their kids off to the military, but many do not. The same is true for Chinese parents. The same goes for every ethnic group. These stereotypes are foolish, and I donít know why some insist on proliferating them...just my 2 cs.

By Kamryn75 (Kamryn75) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

LOL...I'm actually Korean and yes, Korean parents (not sure about other asian parents) are known to be pretty cruel to their children. It's really a a social problem I guess. Many Asian societies view children as property. Boys are supposed to bring acclaim and prosperity to the family and girls are trained to be obedient and submissive. You are simply there to do what your parents tell you and not have thoughts or opinions of your own. You're no more than a slave, and it is very rare for them to show any affection once you have reached your teenage years.

One reason why I waited so long to go to school is because I was 17 when I graduated from high school and I was unable to take on the student loans without a co-signer. My mother thought I did not need college, but that I should simply marry a rich man and have babies instead, and so she wouldn't help me.

By L76 (L76) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Yes...I'm planning to major in the history of art. Most of the Asians at my school are either going pre-med or business or engineering, so I'm a standout here.

By L76 (L76) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 06:08 pm: Edit

And I know a Filipino girl who's going to major in psychology.

By Aznvip (Aznvip) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Better yet, how about an Asian peacekeeper or humanitarian? I'm Vietnamese and I was nominated to go to West Point, until I did extensive research. I didn't really like the Army life (waking up at 5 AM every morning and doing physical training),the campus seemed pretty depressing, everything was grey - like their uniforms, the buildings, the sidewalk, everything. But I reccomend any Asian interested to apply because there aren't many asian cadets at WP. Most of the asians are International, such as South Korea and Taiwan. Now I have my eyes set on a 4-year engineering school...hehe, go figure.

By Chloe (Chloe) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Um... Hildegard, I think your question is innocent, but nonetheless offensive and ignorant.

If you mean hit their children as in abuse, slapping, beating, NO. It's not common as family is pretty important. But, it's present as in most other races.
On the other hand, if you mean a light spank on the butt or something, maybe? Whether spanking is right or not is still pretty controversial in all racial groups.

Kamryn75 I'm sorry to hear about your situation, and I hope it's not as common as your message implies.

I'm Chinese and my parents don't think like that at all. In fact, I think most asian parents want the best for their kids (like everyone else).

And tennisghs, Of course there are! It's like asking, "Are there any Africans who are majoring in engineering and the life sciences?" and of course that answer is yes too!

By Pãezinho (Pãezinho) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 06:47 pm: Edit

I'm Asian, and I'm seriously planning to major in Portuguese. Of course, Harvard's admission decision will decide whether I'll be doing Asian studies, concentrating in Mongolian, Manchu, Tibetan, and/or Vietnamese... I've also been doing lots of independent study in Khmer, Danish, and Icelandic. After a couple of years being fluent in these languages, I'm hoping to be an impoverished translator working for the UN making 30K a year...heh... I might also teach Chinese at a university in Iceland. I'll be starving with my meager salaries, but I'll have PLENTY of fun doing it!

By Hildegard (Hildegard) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 08:20 pm: Edit

To Chloe,

"Um... Hildegard, I think your question is innocent, but nonetheless offensive and ignorant."

Oh, you think? You seem pretty close minded to me. As it happens, I am Latin American and came to the U.S. just a few years ago. I have never interacted with Asians at all, since there are no Asians in my country, and I never heard of rearing techniques in Asia, except for parents being overly strict about studies. I find it funny that you cannot speak freely about other countries and cultures, nevermind your own. As a psych major, I have held great conversations about child-rearing methods in the classroom with other students from other countries and cultures, and people are usually extremely open and free to share their cultures and rearing techniques. I suppose you're still in the dark regarding having interaction in a culturally/racially diverse chatroom, let alone classroom!

On the other hand, I suppose that you, as a Chinese, must know all about child rearing techniques in other countries, whether Asian, South Americans, Europeans, etc.. I mean, you're defintely not "ignorant" (like me), and would never dare "offend" anyone by asking them about their traditions.

By Acoustik (Acoustik) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Hey Kamryn, I am planning to major in Anthropology with emphasis on Archeology as well!! I am good with computers but don't really like the idea of working in an office. I am an outdoor kinda person. My mom, too, didn't expect much of me. When I got rejected from my brother's school, she laughed so hard at me. Well, I proved her wrong by getting into a much more prestigious school than his.

By Incognito (Incognito) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 08:33 pm: Edit

To Hildegard ~

Listen. There's really no need to get so excited. Your question above was, in a sense I gueess, innocent. You may not have had any bad intentions. Yet, nevertheless, it did sound ignorant. I dont think that Chloe was trying to insult you. There was some kind of misunderstanding I think. Just dont turn this into a flame war. It doesnt look like anybody here had any bad intentions. Although I'm not even sure what the purpose of this thread is.

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Although I'm not even sure what the purpose of this thread is.
================================================
According to a recent study by the University of California, 70% of Asians major in life/physical sciences and engineering. That leaves only 30% for the humanites or social work. Asians are SO underrepresented when it comes to law, education/social policy, government, business/management, etc.

Don't you find that somewhat (don't attack me) bad?

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Or don't you find it somewhat weird?

By Incognito (Incognito) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 09:42 pm: Edit

I do. Although I'm much more curious about the reasons as to why this is so...

(BTW, why would I attack you?)

By Sar (Sar) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

From my perspective:
choice of study depends largely on rearing practices and childhood conditioning.

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I could probably study anything I want and do well in it and enjoy it too. But as an Asian (Chinese, to be exact, and yes, parents spank their children but whether or not it is an act of cruelty is debated the same way that spanking is debated in the US among... whites.), I would feel more comfortable in a field where I am surrounded by those with similar cultures, similar family histories and personal beliefs, similar social etiquette, and those who do not look at me in a funny way when I tell them that I'd rather be with my family than with them or "a boy." ;-)

I am choosing to enter the sciences. Probably become a doctor, have some fun fooli--I mean, treating patients... yeah... if I have free time, I will pursue what I enjoy even more: website-building. Meanwhile, I will probably have enough $$$ from my career choice to fund my hobby and maintain a decent family (descendents and/or parents/grandparents).
So I have applied to combined med degree programs (and I've been accepted to one already!)... wait i think i'm getting off topic.

Also, many Asians see the humanities as an "inferior" area; humanities people do not make as much $$$ as do technical and scientific people... if that's the correct way to put it... success, to first, second, or third-generation Chinese immigrants, IS MONEY. Money establishes the comfy family in which the rest of the generations may continue in luxury of their innermost desires and hobbies.
There ARE Artists in China: they are mostly born to families that have lotsa money.

In addition, "humanities" professions are not seen as "necessary" professions. "Can have, can have not," as my father says. A secure profession that will never go out of style, that will encounter very few layoffs in the days to come, is the best way to go.

...the demand for a job in the health sciences in China has been declining due to a disinterest in the curriculum (too narrow) and the relatively low pay for such a serious job. China has another budding problem in its hands...

Back to spanking: in China, it's perfectly fine. I felt fine too when I was still in China, because it was the same with everybody... here, when being hit by parents is somewhat taboo, I have actually felt ashamed of myself for being hit by MY parents. Why did I have to choose socially taboo parents? Why did THEY have to be so different from what I saw on TV? Why did they never want to "talk about it" and "discuss the problem" and "lay it all out in the open" and "see the problem through together" and "figure out what's wrong and come to a compromise" and say "I love you" like everyone else seemed to be doing? Every child on soap operas on TV received ten thousand hugs and kisses a day and was told how much they were loved... was I not loved? But what is love?
American children are embarrassed to have their parents accompany them to school; my parents are embarrassed to accompany me to school and they even seem hesitant to read the school bulletin. Of course, this just may be b/c of their personalities and the foreign language, so whatever, as long as they don't bark at me for not being able to tell them every single thing that occurs at school.

I've only recently come to terms with all that (and more) when I decided that I can't help cultural differences (ingrained into the Chinese mentality through millennia of history, u understand) or what is past.

I feel proud of myself for that. I know I will be strong enough in the future to overcome any putdowns or failures I might encounter. And in such a nice society as that which exists in America, there will be bliss.

:) gee, i'm all sandy-eyed now and I still have to finish my US history homework. I'm just so happy that I've been accepted to that combined med degree program. i might even have the option of living on campus.

By Stupid_Guy (Stupid_Guy) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:28 pm: Edit

I am Asian I'll answer all of ur questions....but don't count on my answers...I'm stupid

first of all... who the heck would wanna gnaw on the past when there's future? History is the past...science is the future.

Secondly, history is for those who are patriotic, those who give a flip about their founding fathers. I really don't give a damn about these stuff, as long as God created me, I use the life I have to do things that actually interests. History Bohrs me to death.

Ok...Social studies. Who would wanna studie something that humans created over things that God created? Deep inside society I find dirty politics, corruption and disgusting maguts. Deep within science and mathematics I find correlations, mysteries and endless beauty and elegance.

and its ok if people are offensive. they'll just get the same attitude in return.

By Chloe (Chloe) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

To Hildegard,

Sorry if you were offended, because that's not what I meant. I thought about putting some disclaimer before posting, but thought it was pretty clear by using "I think" and "most" that I wasn't speaking for all and that I wasn't making huge generalizations.

Perhaps I am ignorant in that I think and hope most asian parents are loving and caring towards their kids.

And since you've just immigrated, no one expects you to know everything/anything about asian culture. That's why I assumed it was innocent and that you were merely asking if a stereotype was true. I thought I would just dispel it.

And if you wanted to discuss child rearing methods, ppl would gladly discuss "freely"... but asking if asian parents hit their children just seemed a little, yes, ignorant. However, I did not mean to insinuate that you yourself was ignorant.

And again, as about a quarter of my county is asian (including all groups) and my school is about 35% asian and well-diversified, I can definitely "speak freely about other countries and cultures" including my own and in my opinion, am not too close-minded.

So, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I do not retract my original statement, because I do think your question was a bit ignorant (though excusable). But please don't take that as a personal attack, because it is not meant in that way.

By Chloe (Chloe) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Tennighs,
I do think it's an interesting question.
Personally, I want to find a career that is stable, thus I'm majoring in biochem.

Because I really like the humanities,I am choosing a school that is good at all levels. Somehow the practical side of me always wonders what you do with a major in slavic studies? or the like. Enlighten me? :)

By L76 (L76) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Well, you could be a professor or researcher of that area (i.e. Slavic studies, Comparative Literature)...

For me, money wasn't a deciding factor in my major/career objective. I want to make enough so I can survive, true, but money is only green paper after all and a line of digits in a checkbook. My own personal satisfaction with my life choices matter more, and no, I wouldn't be happy as a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer, even if that meant I get to live in a million dollar mansion with a servant waiting on me. Not for me. I think a lot of Asians do go into, as the thread beginner says, the scientific disciplines because there's a lot of money waiting at the other end of the B.S./M.S./Ph.D.
I think it's a shame if you do so for that reason because you give up doing something you might have enjoyed immensely for $$$. But many people would disagree with me.

By Hildegard (Hildegard) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:17 am: Edit

To Chloe,

I am not offended at all. I don't think I ever said that, did I? I just felt you were close-minded. I felt that your comment had no apparent purpose. What constructiveness can there be in writing to call someone a name?
For the record, my original question was directed to Kamryn, and I was quite pleased with her *polite* response. She gave a pretty good description of how Asian parents view their children and how it might be a social problem to them. That is exactly what I was looking for.

But anyway, it sounds like you know quite a bit about this. Do you know what Asian countries have already outlawed corporal punishment so far? I know of all the European countries that have done so, just not Asians.

By Kamryn75 (Kamryn75) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 08:44 am: Edit

Hildegard,

Your question didn't offend me at all, I'm pretty used to many people asking me cultural questions and don't expect everyone to be an expert on my culture. I do believe there are vast differences in child rearing when it comes to Korea vs. China vs. Japan. The one thing that does remain prevalent though is that they all put money as their first priority. I believe many Asians, especially the Japanese, are becoming more modernized and want women to be just as educated as males these days. However, this is usually the case for the Asians that live in more urbanized societies. My mother and her friends mostly derive from the poorer, rural areas of Korea and they have all migrated to the U.S. and married interracially. I think something happens to the Korean woman's mentality when they experience such a change in environment and social status. No longer did she feel subservient. Instead, she became very dominating. She also grew up in an abusive home (and when I say 'abusive', I don't mean just spanking - my mother used to be hit on her entire body with an iron pole that was left sitting on burning coals). I guess she just emulated the way she was raised. And this is not as uncommon as many may think. I have had many other friends with Korean mothers grow up in very similar environments. My best friend's mother LITERALLY tried to kill her. Anyway, I'm babbling now way too much so I'll stop, but I just wanted you to know that I wasn't offended. Also, earlier I was speaking of my own experiences within the Korean community and that these instances may be limited to those families that are interracial.

By Hildegard (Hildegard) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Hey Kamryn, thanks a lot for your comment. I found it really informative.
I also come from an abusive home environment, and coincidentally I'm also going for Law after my undergrad in psych. Probably human rights law. I guess I can't and won't extend myself too much on this subject so as to not 'offend' certain individuals here. I don't want to create a new battlefield, lol.

Thanks again,
Hildegard

By Anathemacipher (Anathemacipher) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 04:31 pm: Edit

To SAR

Not to be offensive... but you made quite a few asinine points...

To clarify... im a Poli Sci and Econ major with aspirations in Law (Chinese Male, Immigrant, Dad a Prof, Mom a Librarian)

"I don't want to sound arrogant, but I could probably study anything I want and do well in it and enjoy it too. But as an Asian (Chinese, to be exact, and yes, parents spank their children but whether or not it is an act of cruelty is debated the same way that spanking is debated in the US among... whites.), I would feel more comfortable in a field where I am surrounded by those with similar cultures, similar family histories and personal beliefs, similar social etiquette, and those who do not look at me in a funny way when I tell them that I'd rather be with my family than with them or "a boy." ;-) "

Lets all hold hands and sing...

"Also, many Asians see the humanities as an "inferior" area; humanities people do not make as much $$$ as do technical and scientific people... if that's the correct way to put it... success, to first, second, or third-generation Chinese immigrants, IS MONEY. Money establishes the comfy family in which the rest of the generations may continue in luxury of their innermost desires and hobbies. "

This shows more than anything else how ignorant you are... even about your own race. Chinese people have traditionally considered those who are educated in the humanities as "intellectuals" (Take any course on chinese history... this is very basic info).. in fact all the famous chinese from history are philosophers... not scientists. the trend towards science was started by Chairman Mao to advance China... very akin to toolike status. In addition... your comments about income is also quite untrue. Law, Business, Economists, and Prof all make above average incomes.

"In addition, "humanities" professions are not seen as "necessary" professions. "Can have, can have not," as my father says. A secure profession that will never go out of style, that will encounter very few layoffs in the days to come, is the best way to go."

... Yep... Im sure being a comp programmer is quite "Secure" right? *cough bubble burst *cough* Humanities are just as important if not more so to society than hard sciences. Perhaps that is why 90% of leaders hold degrees in the humanties. Also do realize that qualified individuals are almost always secure in your job. The point is not to hold a degree in a "secure field" but rather to become the best in your chosen field. This is why the people who are unemployed or layed off are usually (note i say usually... there are exceptions) of the same stock. People who are in essence a "dime a dozen."


Next time THINK before you write anything. Your post was filled with generic stereotypes on the humanties. In addition your whole "I feel comfortable with my own people" was a tad elitists and only shows why the asian race is such a "quiet" minority in the united states. While everyone else is fighting for assimilation... you almost want isolation. *sigh*

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Anathemacipher

I agree with your post! I feel good that I created this thread. I plan to major in the humanities, and I find this study very interesting.

By Kamryn75 (Kamryn75) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 05:29 pm: Edit

"In addition your whole "I feel comfortable with my own people" was a tad elitists and only shows why the asian race is such a "quiet" minority in the united states. While everyone else is fighting for assimilation... you almost want isolation. *sigh*"

I agree somewhat with what Anathemacipher says here. If I'm walking through the mall I'll see a group of asian people and they stare at me in disapproval because my boyfriend is white. I get offended because many older Korean people look down on me because 1) I was born in the U.S. and for this they feel I'm unappreciative and disrespectful; and 2) because I'm 'only half' Korean. Asian people actually make me feel MORE like an outsider than any other race! Anyway, I just wish more Asians (as well as every other race for that matter) would just learn to accept interracial friendships, marriages, etc., and be more open and tolerant of other cultures and beliefs.

By Acoustik (Acoustik) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 05:32 pm: Edit

To SAR
Jeez, my teacher the other day just said that Asians are materialistic, and I was about to defend us.
Anyway, I understand the pressure our parents are giving us. They force us to study during our 12 years, then they want us to think practicality when it comes to choosing our careers, basically think money. But ultimately, we are the scholars, we choose to do what makes us happy, not our parents.

By Sar (Sar) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 07:23 pm: Edit

lol sorry everybody, but whatever I typed up there and whatever impression you got from it... that's the same impression I get from my parents. I never said that I knew it all or that I was fair. If you don't like my thoughts, tough. I'll exchange my life for yours and you can help reform my thoughts--just don't make it more than 2 tries...

From what little history I retained from freshman year in HS 4 years ago, China *does* have a history of isolationism. And my parents definitely do NOT want me to become more like any of my friends. My father absolutely refuses to become a naturalized citizen. And frankly, I don't really care about any of that, cuz complaining ain't gonna get me what it is that I really want (mostly cuz I don't know yet what it is I really want, Acoustik, so why not make my parents happy while I continue to choose?). *wg*
hehehe, I agree with the one named Stupid Guy.

Anathemacipher:
Please, next time, don't try to seem polite and then use a derogatory term in the same sentence. Makes you sound uppity and jeering. I might deny it IRL, but won't deny it here: I do feel hurt by your sarcastic post that was dedicated entirely to my post.
Humor me, will ya?
I'm not trying to offend you either, but I honestly think people like you (criticizing others' opinions, using affronting phrases like, "shows how ignorant you are... even about your own race," [actually, I appreciate that one for its honesty] and "*cough bubble burst *cough*," and "next time THINK before you write anything" to respond to another's musings, saying that you don't mean to be offensive so that I might take your words seriously and think even lower of myself--I just got over that, you understand, and I won't let you take me back down... ok, here's where i start rambling...) encourage others to lie about their true thoughts, or to think twice about what they really have to say.
You see all these people who claim to have decided not to speak up about some things for fear of "offending" others? I'm sad about that--that this is happening even under a blanket of relative anonymity. Battlegrounds are fun sometimes when they're virtual.
yeah, i just contradicted myself. no, not really. Go think about it. ;-)

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING LIKE "I feel comfortable with my own people." I don't like how you twisted my words into such a conceited sentence. I worded them very carefully in this case. lol
If someone feels different, it is natural for them to feel uncomfortable; how would it be possible for me to hang around people who insist I need to have more fun? I learned that in 7th grade psychology. :-P Am I supposed to remain in an uncomfortable situation just so I can make friends who are not comfortable with me, either?

"Lets all hold hands and sing..."
Yo. I thought you weren't supposed to be being offensive. :oP

My mother is an "Intellectual." She does not make a lot of money. Therefore, she can be considered "inferior" by some people. That's all. I don't personally look down on them, cuz I look way, way up to my mommy. ^_^

I don't understand the bit about the Computer Programmer. If you were trying to be sarcastic, I believe you failed, as I never said the IT field was one of those "secure" fields. In fact, I WANT to go into computers, but my parents refuse to let me major in anything related to technology because it's such a rapidly changing field *tugs on hair*. Since they're paying for my tuition and I can still minor or double major in anything i want, i didn't argue too hard with them hehe.

I agree, becoming the best in a field is a very nice thing... but if that field or whatever you specialize in goes kaput, then so do you, no matter how good you are.

I don't think you got my point about job necessity. "need or need not," my father says. We don't really need any specialists, but health care workers are more necessary to the well-being of a society than are lawyers or economists. The average person in search of a job should seek the most stable, most long-term, least easy to be laid-off from ones that pay the most... or something like that... eh.

Since China has once been an isolationist, having good health is generally viewed (according to my father) as more important than arguing with the law or trying to figure out how intangible pieces of finance move around the world.

From my experience (just experience, since I haven't taken, nor do I plan to take any, classes about China--might be padded with propaganda, anyway, and I hope I never have to return to it), stereotypes are sometimes very correct. :)

"While everyone else is fighting for assimilation... you almost want isolation. *sigh* "
which is better: a show of self-confidence, or humility? From that remark, it seems like Asians should show neither.
I guess the whole assimilation/isolation thing also depends on personal preferences. I take what you said as a personal criticism and I resent it and think your mind has been curbed by American ideals, but nah, I'll let it go. :)

And "elitist" isn't exactly an incorrect term to describe anybody, so I don't see why you're so unhappy with it.

hmm... i'm quite all right with the "quiet minority" thing. Who needs to see Asian politicians embarrassing themselves on TV and having their pasts scrutinized by scandal-searchers? Maybe we're just biding our time, raising our children to be perfect, so our future politicians will not have trouble with stained pasts. j/k

Kamryn75, I am a quiet person. I do not date. I do not hang out. Therefore, I feel none of your discomfort. Maybe I will, though, in a few more years. Then maybe I'll be saying the same. ^_^

Another American ideal... it's easy to say "be more open and tolerant of other cultures and beliefs," but it's hard to practice if you try to rear a child the best way you can, or want a relationship to go a certain direction, but your spouse disapproves of YOUR ways. It's problematic enough among those of the *same* culture lol


erm... "to clarify:" high school senior, leaning toward medicine and tech, Chinese female, immigrant at 5, senior engineer father (who insists that engineering is not a profession for weak girls), postal worker mother (clerk). We're quite different, aren't we, Anathemacipher? Interesting username, by the way. For the moment, I think it fits you. ;o)

Acoustik and Tenisghs, I don't think we should try to continue to define Asians as a group. It's impossible to do so in a free world without going against somebody's grain. lol
Despite the inviting title of this conversation, I'm sorry I brought my stereotypical views into this conversation that was actually meant for atypical asians who want to major in the humanities. I'll leave you's alone now.

Unless anyone's up for a flame war? I'll play along if anyone else is up for it. *weg*
But I'd like to read your defense, Acoustik. Just cuz I said something asinine... doesn't mean you can't post what YOU wanna say...


PLEASE, people, only the FIRST letter of my alias is Capitalized. What is with you all and "SAR?" Are you trying to insult me? Well if you are, just come out and insult me! Now I'm not even sure you were referring to my post, because I am not SAR. :oP

Wellllll, i think that's it for now. Long enough as it is, eh?
ciao.

By Hildegard (Hildegard) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Anathemacipher,

Quite honestly, I can't understand why you felt the need to ridicule Sar's comments. And I can't understand your need to point out how "ignorant" you think he is. Does that make you feel good, or, better than him?

Sar began his post stating "in my perspective"; Aren't you able to respect someone's perspective?
You know, everyone has their own perspectives and points of view, which have been embedded in their own background and personal experiences. Just because he doesn't have all the answers, (I doubt you have them either,) or because you might know something that he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's ignorant, and it doesn't give YOU the right to call him ignorant without sounding overly offensive and arrogant. You really seem to be enjoying tearing to shreds every single statement he made, ironically, backing yourself up with nothing.

For example, he said:

"Also, many Asians see the humanities as an "inferior" area; humanities people do not make as much $$$ as do technical and scientific people... if that's the correct way to put it... success, to first, second, or third-generation Chinese immigrants, IS MONEY."

You said:
"This shows more than anything else how ignorant you are... even about your own race. Chinese people have traditionally considered those who are educated in the humanities as "intellectuals""


See, Sar is talking about Chinese immigrants who come to the U.S for its opportunities, ( and yes, for the MONEY too) Yet, you are talking about what Chinese people have traditionally considered intellectuals.. Are you on the same line? I don't think so. He's talking about immigrants, you're talking about history, and he is right to some degree, because he is NOT generalizing. He's saying "many" Asians view the humanities (...), and sorry, but that is TRUE. Many DO think that way. AT least according to HIS experience, and after saying "my perspective", his comment is completely valid, while yours isn't. He has a point, which you're attacking with irrelevant information here. If you have the statistics on Chinese immigrants and their priorities and preferred professions and the reasons why they choose those professions, go a head and post your sources for everyone to see. Do you have any results from reliable polls indicating what Chinese immigrants view as success and what are the professions they prefer and why? Or is that your opinion? Back yourself up before you call others ignorants.

"(Take any course on chinese history... this is very basic info).."

Aren't we talking about current trends on first second and third generation Chinese immigrants in the U.S? I don't think he's talking about historical issues of China, but what Chinese immigrants are currently pursuing. I don't see where you're trying to get with that argument, let alone with the sarcasm.


"in fact all the famous chinese from history are philosophers... not scientists."

Here we go again. Are you referring to all the Chinese philosophers who immigrated to the U.S several hundreths of years ago? Yeah right! Which ones?

"In addition... your comments about income is also quite untrue. Law, Business, Economists, and Prof all make above average incomes."

Well, yes, that's true, but that's not his point. EVERYONE with graduate degrees and PhD's make ABOVE-AVERAGE incomes! Did he ever say that humanities make below-average incomes? NOO.
Now, do they make the same amount of money than someone in a scientific field with graduate and doctoral degrees? Please fill us in on salaries, since we all seem to be very ignorant, and you sound quite knowledgeable on anything we dare ask.


My only comment here is that people should have a little RESPECT. People here imply: "your IGNORANCE offends me".. LOL. Aren't YOU offending others by calling them ignorants? Wouldn't it be possible for you to point out what is "untrue" (in your view) about their statements and 'personal opinions and perspectives' without relying on offensive remarks?

Well, I guess I should expect to be flamed after this post, but quite frankly, should I care? (...)At least I'm not calling people names or calling you ignorant for being unable to hold a decent conversation without the need to bash others. I wonder if you can explain your need to offend other posters based on.. nothing.

By Anathemacipher (Anathemacipher) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 10:42 pm: Edit

*Sigh* Im not going to cuddle and caress you with words. That would be a waste of my time. Lets instead cut the chase. Yes I might be a bit "dis-respectful" but I really dont give a ••••. Im here defending a point, and criticing what others have to say against it. Making posts about "this is my opinion" is merely beating around the bush, and quite sophomoric.

WIth that said, I shall begin to address the counter points made by Sar and Hildegard.

SAR

"If you don't like my thoughts, tough."

You begin your post with this. Why? It totally undermines the rest of the post. In fact if you believe so much in this doctrine, then why are you bothering to tell me Im being "disrespectful." I mean if you didnt like my comments... wouldnt that also just be "tough?"

"From what little history I retained from freshman year in HS 4 years ago, China *does* have a history of isolationism."

That doesnt really have any connection with my points about asians being the "quiet" minority... I dont see how this justifies asian people isolating themsevles from mainstream society. In fact your "history example" is quite inconsistant. The US up till its imperialism campains of the early 20th century was very much isolationists too... yet look how much we are involved in world affairs today (even nicknamed the "worlds policeman" by many). Another example would be Germany... a great history of war. Yet... its government today has taken quite a pacifist stance in world politics.

"I'm not trying to offend you either, but I honestly think people like you (criticizing others' opinions, using affronting phrases like, "shows how ignorant you are... even about your own race," [actually, I appreciate that one for its honesty] and "*cough bubble burst *cough*," and "next time THINK before you write anything" to respond to another's musings, saying that you don't mean to be offensive so that I might take your words seriously and think even lower of myself--I just got over that, you understand, and I won't let you take me back down... ok, here's where i start rambling...) encourage others to lie about their true thoughts, or to think twice about what they really have to say."

Im glad you arent hurt by my words. You deserve a cookie. I express my opinions in a very honest way. While this might appear a bit big-headed to some, I really could careless. If you find my words wrong, then please refute my arguments. If not, then they stand.

"I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING LIKE "I feel comfortable with my own people." I don't like how you twisted my words into such a conceited sentence. I worded them very carefully in this case. lol"

On the contary. You mentioned how you liked being in a field with people of the same background, culture, etc and how it made you feel more comfortable. This really does imply that you feel more comfortable with asians than other races. (sidenote... yes you also mentioned "interests" but... I believe my interpertation of your words is not too off)

"If someone feels different, it is natural for them to feel uncomfortable; how would it be possible for me to hang around people who insist I need to have more fun? I learned that in 7th grade psychology. :-P Am I supposed to remain in an uncomfortable situation just so I can make friends who are not comfortable with me, either? "

Perhaps I should clarify. I never said you should feel associate yourself with people who make you uncomfortable. I merely criticed how I felt it was wrong for you to isolate yourself with asians... thus not even giving a chance to people outside our race.

"Yo. I thought you weren't supposed to be being offensive. :oP "

In your own words: if you dont like it, tough.

"I don't understand the bit about the Computer Programmer. If you were trying to be sarcastic, I believe you failed, as I never said the IT field was one of those "secure" fields."

...... where shall I begin. I mentioned computer programming for many reasons.

1. You made the argument that science type jobs are more secure. (while not explicitly... you do refer to this point)

2. Comp Programming is a hard science

3. Comp Programming is not secure

5. Thus I bring up comp programming

"I agree, becoming the best in a field is a very nice thing... but if that field or whatever you specialize in goes kaput, then so do you, no matter how good you are. "

A degree in the humanties is extremely flexible. For example a person with a BA in Asian Studies can peform many jobs. And teaching jobs... never go "kaput."

"I don't think you got my point about job necessity. "need or need not," my father says. We don't really need any specialists, but health care workers are more necessary to the well-being of a society than are lawyers or economists."

.... go do some research on the roles that lawyers and economists play, please. Economists and lawyers are just as critical to the functioning of a society as a health care workers. In fact lawyers and economists build the foundations for which a health care system can be built upon. A health care worker would sure be pointless if we didnt have the the economists to stimulate the economy and provide the capital to build hosptials etc etc. In parrallel, a lawyer builds the organizational framework (laws etc) for which an efficient health care system can function under.

"Since China has once been an isolationist, having good health is generally viewed (according to my father) as more important than arguing with the law or trying to figure out how intangible pieces of finance move around the world."

China was mainly isolated because it was so big. Why bother with the outside world when you have fueding districts within your own land? Your health point is very illogical here. While a piority is it really above the importance of business and government? Sure... you might argue that if one is unhealthy then nothing is possible... granted that might be true. However, how does this jusitify your point that science is better than the humanities? The fact is... science depends just as much on the humanities and vice versa. When a person is healthy... staying healthy is not their concern. Rather they want to address their "comforability" factor. I.e. building favorable laws... and making money. Money making... let me remind you.. is so favored upon by your father. Thus, in compliance with your "my father says this... so it legitimizes it" paradigm, economic matters are quite important.

"From my experience (just experience, since I haven't taken, nor do I plan to take any, classes about China--might be padded with propaganda, anyway, and I hope I never have to return to it), stereotypes are sometimes very correct."

Perhaps this is why you make a stereotype about classes about china. How are they padded with propangda... I cant even see the logic behind that statement. Of all the classes Ive had about asian history... the profs were caucasian. The books were even on the most part written by caucasians. I dont see why the United States would fill a class about china with propaganda supporting it. You complain to me about how I shouldnt make insulting comments... How can I resist when you make blatant arguments about things you have no knowledge in. OF COURSE I would call you ignorant... stuff like this deserves that title.

Also stereotypes are not hardly every that correct. After all... stereotypes are preconcieved notions about something based on biased experiances or information. While they might resemble the truth... it is worth noting that is 99% of the time biased. But maybe you are correct in that stereotypes can be very correct. After all arent all black people stupid? Hispanic people criminals? and Jews cheap? (note the sarcasm)

"which is better: a show of self-confidence, or humility? From that remark, it seems like Asians should show neither.
I guess the whole assimilation/isolation thing also depends on personal preferences. I take what you said as a personal criticism and I resent it and think your mind has been curbed by American ideals, but nah, I'll let it go."

Why let it go? You already made the point didnt you? Im not curbed by "american ideals" im curbed by the experiances Ive had in life. If they can be construed by you as "american" then so be it. So what if I want the asian race treated with the same political respect as african-americans and latino-americans? While you might resent my comments... they are on the large part quite true. Many posters here have even concurred with me on this matter. Isolating yourself is not a good thing in America. It you dont make any noise... you wont be heard. Perhaps this is not a very "asian" mentality to have. But thats too bad. We live in the united states... and to some degree we must assimilate... if we dont... its only to our disadvantage. This is an issue I am extremely passionate about, asian americans while a large minority group hold no where close to the amount of political capital that other groups have. I find this most ironic, since the average asian is quite middle-class... and traditionally the middle class wields the bulk of the influence. (although one can argue that the rich holds more) It shouldnt matter what your personal peferences are on this matter. Being quiet brings negative consenquences.

Also... I would like to address your implied argument that I am "curbed... i.e. a ABC." Whats wrong with this? I assure you I am just as chinese as you are. My family is that of a typical immigrant chinese family. I am fluent in both chinese and english. I am a member of my college's asian american program. Furthermore I am pursuing a minor in asian studies. However, this really doesnt matter. Because while I might be Chinese, I associate myself first and foremost as a human being. If I come across something or someone I like, wether it be "american" or not, I will choose to pursue it. I resent you implying that Im some sort of a traitor. But then again... tough cookies.

"hmm... i'm quite all right with the "quiet minority" thing. Who needs to see Asian politicians embarrassing themselves on TV and having their pasts scrutinized by scandal-searchers? Maybe we're just biding our time, raising our children to be perfect, so our future politicians will not have trouble with stained pasts. j/k "

When I garner the political capital to buy laws and policies which benifit the asian people, you'll be thanking me. Your apathy to government and the things that have a huge affect on your life is appalling. This isnt a matter of being humiliated. Nor is it a matter between americcan and chinese thought. Its simply a matter taking action and insuring that you dont get pushed around. Please if anyone else feels this way, post a message. I want SAR to see how many asians are "curbed" by american thoughts.

"erm... "to clarify:" high school senior, leaning toward medicine and tech, Chinese female, immigrant at 5, senior engineer father (who insists that engineering is not a profession for weak girls), postal worker mother (clerk). We're quite different, aren't we, Anathemacipher? Interesting username, by the way. For the moment, I think it fits you. ;o)"

Not really. Chinese Male, I immigrated when I was three. My father is a prof of poli sci. My mother works at the unveristy library (staff).

Our backgrounds really dont differ that much. Its out mentalities that do.

"PLEASE, people, only the FIRST letter of my alias is Capitalized. What is with you all and "SAR?" Are you trying to insult me? Well if you are, just come out and insult me! Now I'm not even sure you were referring to my post, because I am not SAR. :oP "

It says SAR on my screen. I dont feel obligated to refer to you as anything else.


HILDEGARD

I found your post a bit PC. Do you relish playing the moderate good guy, who voices opinions about everything, but really stands for nothing. Dont give me this •••••••• about "perspective" etc etc. She made very finate arguments. I disagree, so I stated my opinions. While the way I approached it might not have been "nice" I really dont see thats really relevant.

"Aren't you able to respect someone's perspective?
You know, everyone has their own perspectives and points of view, which have been embedded in their own background and personal experiences."

Voicing dissent does not equate to not respecing someones perspective.

"Just because he doesn't have all the answers, (I doubt you have them either,) or because you might know something that he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's ignorant, and it doesn't give YOU the right to call him ignorant without sounding overly offensive and arrogant."

I never stated that I had all the answers. Notice how i dont make bizzaro comments about something I dont know about. On the contary... notice the things that SAR said. Also it is my perogative to call someone whatever I want. My comments come from the heart and are based upon what I feel, unihibited by social conventions (after all, this is the internet).

"You really seem to be enjoying tearing to shreds every single statement he made "

You seem to be enjoying playing mr nice guy. Go cry me a river. Not everyone is going to hold your hand through life. Also on a sidenote, I think SAR can defend my attacks by herself. Perhaps playing "hero" is gratifying to you.

"See, Sar is talking about Chinese immigrants who come to the U.S for its opportunities, ( and yes, for the MONEY too) Yet, you are talking about what Chinese people have traditionally considered intellectuals.. "

I was offering a contrast to her point. Being an immigrant doesnt change traditional mentalities. Furthermore, my application of historical context is valid. Asian people after all are very traditional. More importantly you are reading my I stated without contemplating the entire purpose. While it might seem "off-subject" in replying to her 3 lines regarding immigrants, when you apply it to the overall message of her post (i.e. Chinese people study the sciences because it is valued more than the humanties) you see how my comments about philosophers etc stand.

"Well, yes, that's true, but that's not his point. EVERYONE with graduate degrees and PhD's make ABOVE-AVERAGE incomes! Did he ever say that humanities make below-average incomes? NOO."

I misread her statemens. I do apologize.

"Well, I guess I should expect to be flamed after this post, but quite frankly, should I care? (...)At least I'm not calling people names or calling you ignorant for being unable to hold a decent conversation without the need to bash others. I wonder if you can explain your need to offend other posters based on.. nothing. "

LOL, why would I flame you? I dont take offense by words found on a messageboard on the internet. I post only when I find the topic interesting. I wont waste my time posting "flames."

If you dont care so much about me flaming ... why did you reply and critic me for being "disrespectful (flaming)" towards SAR. It seems pretty obvious that you do care. However, go ahead and critic. Thats your right. When I feel that I am wrong, then I apologize. Otherwise, I dont take anything back. I have a right to bash anyone I want. Just as you have a right to critic me for bashing them. This is something you have to understand. Furthermore my critic on her post was obviously not based on "nothing" the mere fact that a few posters concur with my points affirms this.

Finally, while I might be crude in my communication style, at least Im honest. If my words *gasp* hurt your feelings *gasp* then thats your problem not mine.

HTH

*edit please ignore the grammatical or spelling errors. I typed this quite briskly, and didnt bother to proofread.

By Congresssenator (Congresssenator) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 06:00 pm: Edit

I'm Chinese, but I'll likely do Economics/Philosophy on my way to a law degree.

By Ibd (Ibd) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Oh dear, let's not argue and waste time! Surely, there must be something sadder than collegeconfidential discussion board drama.

And to answer the original question, I will be majoring in poli sci and minoring in archaeology. Although I might double major if it's possible.


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