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Any one can tell me the details about
the elite 7 law schools ?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Um, why 7???

Personally, I would divide up the law schools as follows:

*Harvard, Yale, Stanford - the top three
*Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Georgetown, Duke, UCal Berkeley, Penn, UVA, Chicago, and maybe one or two more that I missed - the other greats.

Go to any of the above and you are in great shape. I'm not entirely sure what you are asking with this post.

By Tro348a (Tro348a) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Michigan and Northwestern round out the list.

By I1lmatics (I1lmatics) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

here are the 2004 rankings for the top 10 law schools ...cornell, gtown and berkely are not in it as previously stated (they are however right outside it)

1. Yale University (CT) %
2. Harvard University (MA)
3. Stanford University (CA)
4. Columbia University (NY)
5. New York University
6. University of Chicago
7. University of Michigan–Ann Arbor
University of Pennsylvania
9. University of Virginia
10. Duke University (NC)
Northwestern University (IL


and the rest of the top 25:
12. Cornell University (NY)
13. University of California–Berkeley
14. Georgetown University (DC)
15. University of Texas–Austin
16. University of California–Los Angeles
17. Vanderbilt University (TN)
18. University of Southern California
19. University of Minnesota–Twin Cities
20. George Washington University (DC)
University of Notre Dame (IN)
Washington University in St. Louis
23. Boston University
Emory University (GA)
University of Iowa
Washington and Lee University (VA)

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Thanks to Tro for supplying Northwestern and Michigan.

Honestly, I do believe that there is a bit of a drop-off in prestige immediately after Georgetown on that list. I'll stick by the top group being (in no particular order) Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Chicago, Michigan, UVA, UCal Berkeley, Penn, Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Duke, and Georgetown. The cutoff is really not at 7 or 10.

The next group would have Vanderbilt, W&L, UCLA, BC, and some of the others on it. Even Minnesota, which is undoubtably excellent, has very low placement rates outside of Minnesota.

As US News is, well, US News, Emory made a jump from 27 to 23; W&L dropped from 19 to 23. GW had been somewhere around 25 last year. Beware of the straight rankings, as the fluctuations are arbitrary and meaningless.

By I1lmatics (I1lmatics) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

columbia swapped places with nyu this year

By Burningsands (Burningsands) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 12:26 pm: Edit

HOWARD - I think somebody told your wrong somewhere down the line about their being a top 7. As I1LMATICS broke it down, any of those top 25 schools are considered presigious in the Law community.

Actually, Law Schools are broken up into Tiers, the top 50 are Tier 1, the next 50 are Tier 2, 100 thru 150 are Tier 3, and the bottom of the barrel is Tier 4.

If you can get into a Tier 1 or Tier 2 law school then you are doing good. If you can get into a top 25 school within that Tier 1 then pretty much your ticket is written upon graduation.

Burning Sands

By Tro348a (Tro348a) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Not necessarily. There are only 14 Law Schools in the country that can claim a truly natonal reputation; those 14 typically never move out of the Top 14 in US News (although they may awitch places within the group). There really is a notable drop in prestige once you get outside of the Top 14, as most of the below 14 are more regional than anything (although the Top 10% in a ny class at a 15-20 will place well). Firms will dig a lot deeper into the pool those schools than with others. THat said, if you want to go into academia, a typically prequisite is attendance at HYS or CCN (the top 6 law schools). Michigan could also be included in this group, but there is drop in prestige between CCN and Mich.

By Burningsands (Burningsands) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 06:04 pm: Edit

What are you kidding?

If you graduate from a Tier 1 law school, you are recognized. IF you graduate from a top 25 you're in like flin.

Those top 14 that you refer to are just the ones that you hear the most about. Trust, in the law profession, a top Tier school is highly recognized, not just the top 14. Let's look at the employment rates for 15 through 25 only.

15. University of Texas–Austin 99.3%
16. University of California–Los Angeles 96.9%
17. Vanderbilt University (TN) 95.7%
18. University of Southern California 100%
19. University of Minnesota–Twin Cities 97.5%
20. George Washington University (DC) 98.6%
University of Notre Dame (IN) 96.6%
Washington University in St. Louis 98.7%
23. Boston University 97.6%
Emory University (GA) 98%
University of Iowa 99%
Washington and Lee University (VA) 95.3%

As you can see, these schools have little difficulty placing their graduates, and they're not in the top 14. Not only that, but if you look at the geographical breakdown of these schools' grads, more than 60% of them are are not being recuited locally. That means these schools are recognized all over the country.


Furthermore, on a side note, U.S. News and World report is a commercial magazine that does not nececarilly display the true life "top 100" law schools. These are the schools that may scratch the backs the most of the top law firms in the nation. In fact, one of the criteria on the ranking list is "prestige". How can you asign a quantitative value to an opinion like prestige?

The study of law does not somehow magically sink into the minds of Harvard or Yale law students any faster than it does for students at Texas or USC. The tests are no harder or easier, the material is no different, and the methods are for all intensive purposes the exact same thing. The only difference is that one has designer label on it and the other does not, and unfortunately in the American law profession, that is what sells.

Burning Sands

By Tro348a (Tro348a) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Exactly. What sells is the name on your degree. That said, the graduates of those Top 14 law schools fare far better in getting the most competitive jobs across the country than others. I am not denigrating the education received at USC or Texas or GWU. Let's face fact however: prestige matters, particularly in law. Firms want to be able to say that this associate handling your case graduated from Harvard u-grad or Columbia law.

I think it would be foolish to "trust" your claim that any of the top 100 law schools are highly recognized. The high-paying competitive firms in large markets simply do not dig deep into the pool at non-Top 14s, let alone at schools in 50s and 60s. As much as it might displease you, the GULC name will carry you much farther than that of USC. This is fact, not opinion. If you are in the top 10% at USC, or you want to work in the SoCal market, this of course, is a moot point, as you'll do fine in getting a competitive position. But for the student in the middle of the class, the name matters.

No kidding.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Tro: I will disagree with you as well. The top 14 are truly excellent, but the top 25 or so still will be great. Fordham Law, for example, has very similar placement rates to Columbia and NYU. Those grads are getting pretty much the same NYC jobs. In Massachusetts, a BC Law grad is amazing.

USNews also does a pretty mediocre job of ranking the law schools. I will agree with their top 14 placement, but not entirely. There is a joke that you shouldn't go to Yale Law if you want to be a lawyer.

Suffolk Law was, for many years, considered a third-tier school, which was probably entirely accurate. Most Massachusetts employers have a lot of respect for the degree and the graduates. Yet, it slipped to fourth tier in the latest rankings - alongside New England School of Law and Western NE School of Law. The latter two are quite poor in terms of quality - Suffolk is certainly better. Regardless, some completely arbitrary formula determined that they are similar.

The top 10% of most law schools (exluding the tier 4s) will get jobs comprable to those of the national schools. However, for the top bunch of schools (I'm thinking the top 30 or 40), you don't need to be in the top 10% to get the great jobs - they are there for you. Take a look IN THE BACK of USNews and see the straight information on each school. For most of the top 25s, 25% of graduates are making over $110k/year in private practice. Most of them have geographic distributions which are similar to the top 14.

Even Tulane, at #45 or so, has a very high placement rate in NYC. I believe that they list New York as one of the most common states for students to take the bar exam.

By Masterchris (Masterchris) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 01:14 am: Edit

Harvard Stanford Yale are the most famous.

By Tro348a (Tro348a) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

I apologize if the perception is that I'm arguing that schools and and students below the top 14 are somehow subpar. And I completely agree that there is no placement difference betwen T14 and other Tier 1 schools, in their home markets. For the vast majority of students who aren't on the career track to make partner at some huge SF or NYC firm, or for those that go to Tier 1 law schools in the region they plan to practice, this is irrelevant. However, a Fordham student trying to get an associate position in SF or LA is not going to be as competitive as a Boalt or UCLA grad, ceteris paribus.

By Burningsands (Burningsands) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Tro, no doubt. You are right about the prestige factor among law firms. I know that it is common practice for some firms to not even look at 3rd or 4th tier law grads REGARDLESS of your class placement. So I'm not arguing you there. I've talked to enough lawyers to have heard that story time and time and time again to know it is a fact.

I'm just pointing out that the U.S.News and World report is not all its cracked up to be. Its like a bad rumor that is further perpetuated by its constituents. And who are we to question it right?


Burning Sands

By Ans298 (Ans298) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

Question for Tro or anyone who can answer - this is a serious question and total honesty would be appreciated. Can you be Asian and make partner at a huge firm in SF, LA or NYC or anywhere? Is law really a possibility for Asians who don't want to be engineers or will law firms just not have Asians? I'm not looking for politically correct answers, just honest answers. If the case is that some will have Asians, but the majority won't and if you know this, say so. Thanks.

By Kazz (Kazz) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Alright, yes, forget USNews

Before USNews even did college rankings, there was still an 'elite 7' that every future law student aspired to go to. All the best law firms recruit from these.

After the 7, prestige falls to the next tier.

USNews does still hold them in the top 7, with Penn making it in somehow but the elite 7 are in no particular order

Columbia, NYU, Yale, Harvard, Michigan, Stanford, Chicago

If you graduate from one of the above, congratulations because you'll be able to find yourself in one of the best law firms in the nation.

By Burningsands (Burningsands) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Ans298 - Interesting question. Unfortunately for you and I, minority representation at large law firms & law firms in general still leaves a little something to be desired. Being a minority, its something that I look into because the ultimate goal here is to get a JOB after you get done with the 3 years of torture right?

I have researched intellectual property or patent law firms in the cities you mentioned and here's typically what I have found:

San Fran:
Firm size = 40 Partners, 60 Associates, 100 total
Asian Partners = 2
Black Partners = 0
Hisp. Partners = 2
Asian Assoc. = 12
Black Assoc. = 2
Hisp. Assoc. = 1

Los Angeles:
Firm size = 45 Partners, 62 Associates, 107 total
Asian Partners = 0
Black Partners = 0
Hisp. Partners = 1
Asian Assoc. = 17
Black Assoc. = 6
Hisp. Assoc. = 2

New York:
Firm size = 41 Partners, 102 Associates, 143 total
Asian Partners = 1
Black Partners = 1
Hisp. Partners = 1
Asian Assoc. = 5
Black Assoc. = 6
Hisp. Assoc. = 4

Washington, D.C.:
Firm size = 74 Partners, 108 Associates, 182 total
Asian Partners = 2
Black Partners = 1
Hisp. Partners = 0
Asian Assoc. = 14
Black Assoc. = 6
Hisp. Assoc. = 3

So yes, while not probable it is possible that you will make partner at whatever firm you choose or rather, whatever firm chooses you.

You don't even wanna know what the numbers look like for Men Vs. Women.


Burning Sands

By Ans298 (Ans298) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

hmm...thanks for the response...i mean, we've got to be honest about the situation...i still have a lot of questions about law...would you happen to have aim burningsands?

By Burningsands (Burningsands) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 03:49 pm: Edit

I think so. Have aim at what exactly?


Burning Sands

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:28 am: Edit

Ans - I think that only about 4% of lawyers are non-white. I suspect that many of them practice in areas like employment law, immigration law, etc.

While the situation of the legal field is depressing for non-white men, the younger group is definitely more diverse. I do think that it will be these next few years which will really push a diverse group through law school and therefore on to associates. Could be wishful thinking...

Ans and burningsands - feel free to drop me an email.