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So I was looking through my mail today and saw a letter from Harvard. "Ooh," I thought to myself. I've been receiving college mail for some time now and I even got a little card from Yale. Anyway, I opened up the letter and began reading. It was addressed from one "Francisco Perez." This didn't strike me as odd--I assume they employ all types of people at Harvard. But, as I continued reading the truth became painfully clear. Our friend Francisco is a student working with the recruiting department. Now, whom might he be recruiting?

You guessed it, minorities. Pretty swell, eh? Well, not really. I'm not much of a minority. 100% Italian, evenly divided between Sicily and South-Central Italy. But, there is some light at the end of this tunnel. My paternal grandfather, provident man that he was, had the sense to be born in Brazil. So I think I qualify as hispanic.

I talked to my school's college counselor and she said that I should be able to mark myself as such. I don't think I'm above using this approach--if it will be to my advantage. Will being a minority help me much? Am I legally able to call myself as a hispanic (or whatever label they're using these days)?

All opinions are welcome.

BTW, I've got a 4.0 (~95) GPA, 1440 PSAT (with a 760 on the writing, I think) and so-so ECs, just to give you some reference.

By Crnchycereal (Crnchycereal) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Wow, this could be a tricky one....While I don't condemn your choice to use this status to your advantage (and yes, being a URM will help you greatly), I must question the logistics. What would an interviewer say once it became clear that you're not Hispanic? Do you have a Hispanic surname?

By Serdu (Serdu) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:27 pm: Edit

I got one of those too but it was made pretty clear that I wasn't being recruited. I had the same writing score funnily enough.

By Culovv (Culovv) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:34 pm: Edit

That is the dumbest thing ive ever heard... why dont you just mark what damn race you REALLY are?

By Serdu (Serdu) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

*Ouch feisty*

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:42 pm: Edit

No you are not allowed to call yourself hispanic because that has to do with your ethnic background. A white person born in Mexico who then moves to the US can call themselves a Mexican-American but not a hispanic. Anyways I don't think Brazilian counts as hispanic.

The only way you can get away with something like this is if you were a non-black person born in Africa and the application checkbox says African-American not black. That way you could check the box and you wouldn't be lying.

By Culovv (Culovv) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

You know you feel the same way Serdu. If you arent raised in a hispanic home, you have no reason to mark the hispanic check. its bs... you cant just pick and choose with your race.

By Serdu (Serdu) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:01 pm: Edit

*Applauds Culovv*...

The concept of "choosing" your race is really a moral battle. I wholeheartedly agree that when it comes to admissions applicants really have to be honest.

By Riz (Riz) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Does anyone know the exact definition? With a link, if possible. I searched the college board and Google but couldn't find anything.

My school's last dean applied as hispanic because his grandmother (or maybe even further back) was Cuban. He's Irish as the blarney stone, however.

Chas, point taken. What's URM, by the way?

By Serdu (Serdu) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Under Represented Minority.

By Quollock (Quollock) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:14 pm: Edit

BTW

If your parents are south african (white) can you put yourself down as African American?

Might as well use political correctness to your advantage.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit

It depends, IMO, on which race you identify with. Do you really see yourself as Hispanic/African-American (the key is being honest)? Probably not.

And, if you're a critic of AA, it is the height of hypocrisy to use it when it suits your needs. It shows a definite lack of conviction/morality.

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Quollock, I say yes. Especially if you are a critic of political correctness. Imagine, you apply as an African-American (which by that color-blind definition you are) and the college accepts you and when they find out you are white they try to reject you, but simply end up with egg on their faces.

By Gangstar (Gangstar) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:26 pm: Edit

hey..say my frend is asian and he checks african as his race(because face it, its easier to get in wit african)...will any colleges find out his real race?

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Oh, geez, now the floodgate opens...

By Quollock (Quollock) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Honestly, I would rather lie about my ECs than my race. But I'm not a liar. Its sad your friend denies his heritage in order to get into college. But I'm no ethicist. The college may or may not find out depending on how much impact the student has and stuff like size of school and amount of personal attention. Even with this, it may be hard to find out. Anyhow I'd rather get in on my own merits than lying, and please don't make this another polarized AA thread.

haha i used honestly and lie in the same sentence

By Mkhman (Mkhman) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:59 pm: Edit

HELLO, you are not hispanic, your grandpa is born in Brazil, that does not mean he is Brazilian! WHen he or your parents came to America, they are not Brazilian, they become Italian-American, not Italian Brazilian American, So your white, do not try. Being Hispanic means that you were faced with hardships URM's face, if you were not than you are not a URM!

By Gumbino (Gumbino) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Not all URMs have faced hardships, but they often get special consideration based on their race or last names. I know a girl with a Hispanic surname who got a great National Hispanic Scholar award. She comes from an upper middle class family in a well-to-do neighborhood. And she speaks NO Spanish.

By Sharshar (Sharshar) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 08:35 pm: Edit

I have NOTHING against the underrepersented minorities in colleges, but I think I should tell you guys about my friends' story.

She is hispanic (Her family is from South America) But she is very American. (She doesnt hang out w/ hispanic people, and I have never heard her speak spanish) She has decent SAT scores, (when I say decent, it means about the national average) and she said that Harvard and other top colleges send her mail ALL the time...now I don't know if she is telling the truth or not (but I trust her cause why would she lie about that & why would she lie to ME). But that has made me think. Well, she make Bs and Cs and occasionally a couple F. She jokes about it cause the colleges dont know that. They only know that she is hispanic and have decent SAT score, so they send her information and are being all friendly to her. But us, the other "overrepesented" races (asian, white,etc)....well, let's put it this way, even if we make a 1600, 4.5 (I certainly didnt) I still doubt Harvard will take a look at us.

I mean, I know the colleges have their reasons and they are doing it for the better (of all humans) and all that and I give them props for that...but sometimes it's just not fun to compare....anyway, just my 2cents.

=)
I luv you all and good luck on your admissions!

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Face it, if she has some C's and occasionally an F, she's not going to Harvard, even if she were a Native-American recuited lacrosse player.

By Sharshar (Sharshar) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit

"Face it, if she has some C's and occasionally an F, she's not going to Harvard, even if she were a Native-American recuited lacrosse player."

lol, I know, that's why I was saying that Harvard rather send my friend letters of information than to some of the best students in our school just because their race.

And, yes, she is not going to Harvard. She said she doesnt want to go there, It's not for her.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

I know exactly what you meant...but it is news to no one that colleges target high scoring URM's. I'm just trying to keep this from degenerating into the typical AA thread.

By Sharshar (Sharshar) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Yeah, I understand. There's a lot of AA discussions these days...

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

By Got2go (Got2go) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Riz-I don't think you should mark Hispanic, but definately put "Latino" as your race/ethnicity, since your family is of latin background, being from Italy.

By Riz (Riz) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:35 pm: Edit

Got2, the Latino option is included with the hispanic, I think.

Mikh, you're assuming all minorities endure hardships. This is simply not true. I know plenty of well-off hispanics and blacks, as well as many who could use help from AA. Saying they deserve special treatment because of "hardship" is bull, most of the ones who make the great colleges aren't the ones who truly need the system's aid.

I might just choose "other" and specify. I'll have to think about this some more.

By Neo (Neo) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:40 pm: Edit

I love how everyone against AA has these mythical "well-to-do" minority friends who somehow speak for an entire population of URMs.

It's sort of like:

Person A: Well, I know this rich hispanic girl.
Person B: Umm...so?
Person A: Well, she's hispanic, and rich, so she's going to go to harvard even though she's rich.
Person B: That's not how it works.
Person A: Yes it is! She's just like all URMs!

That's what I'm seeing here. It's kind of ridiculous.

By Sharshar (Sharshar) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Neo---LOL....that was NOT my intention AT ALL. As I said, I'm not saying the AA or URM is unfair, and I never thought "all URM" are "rich" or "well-to-do". In fact, I kinda support the AA (just recently). Because as you all know, we need every race to be equal and repersented (educationaly, economically, ...etc) in the world.

So, chill. It was just a story from a different angle.

By Nan817 (Nan817) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Brazilians are not considered Hispanic/Latino. They speak Portugese in Brazil. I guess that proves how out of touch you really are with your so-called Hispanic side. Also, if you want some more proof, the College Board (who gives out the National Hispanic Scholarships) stipulates that:

To qualify for this program, the student must be at least one-quarter Hispanic, according to the following definition: A person of Mexican-American, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Spanish cultures or origins. For purposes of this program, this does not include persons from Brazil or Portuguese culture/origin, nor persons from the Philippines.

Sorry to burst your bubble (actually, I'm not), but for all intents and purposes you are not Hispanic. I am sure that most schools use the same criteria as the College Board.

Thanks for playing!

By Fakeplasticlove (Fakeplasticlove) on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 11:06 pm: Edit

"Being Hispanic means that you were faced with hardships URM's face."

I'm half-mexican, and I have to disagree with you there. I also have to disagree with the statements that imply not speaking spanish somehow negates one's hispanic heritage. There is much more to being hispanic than economic status and speaking spanish.

My mother is American and my father is Mexican, born in in Mexico. Both are bilingual, but growing up I learned english, with a little Spanish thrown in. This isn't unusual. Typically, one learn's the native language of their mother. I speak spanish now thanks mostly to school. I'm not completely fluent, but close. And I hear spanish quite often. Half of my relatives live in Mexico. I'm going to hear it. And conversations in my home will often alternate languages. But this doesn't mean when I didn't speak spanish, I wasn't Mexican. I learned to speak spanish because I am and was always Mexican.

As for economic status. My family is pretty well off financially. It wasn't always that way, but that's how it is now. Does that mean I'm not a URM? In terms of being a minority, being from a wealthy hispanic family is less common than being from a poor one. And in terms of representation, how many well off hispanic American kids are there in U.S. schools? I don't really know. Either way, the financial status of my family does not change the fact that I am Mexican. I spend a considerable amount of time in Mexico. I have seen and experienced Mexican life. And economically, I appreciate eveything I have more because of the experiences I have had in Mexico. But economic hardships are not what define the Mexican people or hispanic people in general. Culture is more than economy. It's more than language. There is music. There is art. There is literature. There is cuisine. There is history.

I'd hate to think that affirmative action is just about pity. Giving economically underpriviledged kids is definitely a part of it, but I don't think that's all it's about. Sure one of the reasons we need affirmative action is about that, but that's not the goal of affirmative action. It's the cause. The goal is diversity, and not just economic diversity, but also cultural diversity. I'm sure there are people who are racially hispanic, but culturally are not. Do I think they should check off the hispanic box? No. Racially, I'm part German. Culturally do I consider myself German? No. If asked about my ethnic background, would I check off German? No. When I applied, and they asked me my ethnic background, I checked both Mexican-American and Caucasian because I am both. Luckily they allow you to check more than one. If they didn't, I really don't know which I would have checked. Maybe I would have checked Other and specified.

I'm not saying every person who is racially the least bit hispanic should check the hispanic box, but if it's part of who you are, if the stories you tell and the outlook you have on life are a result of your being hispanic, then you should check it. Being Mexican is at least half of who I am, regardless of the fact that spanish was not my first language and my family is wealthy. I will bring that part of my identity to whatever college I go to. Do I think colleges should admit me because of it? I know I'd rather go to a culturally diverse college than a homogeneous one. Diversity's one of the first things I look at in a college. So I guess the answer is yes, it should play some role. If a college is admitting me as not just a student but also a person, then as a person, I am hispanic.

By Serdu (Serdu) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 12:07 am: Edit

I guess by terms of College Admissions I cannot be much more "Hispanic". I've catered to my demgraphic. I speak Spanish fluently and it is my native language. I've had some hardships, I don't live in a "well-to-do" neighborhood, etc. I don't think the term "Hispanic" should exclusively apply to cases like mine.

However it pains me to hear about these uber-conservative, upper crust, not Spanish speaking and yes many times RICH kids who use the tactic of ethnicity to their advantage and yet want absolutely no connection to their heritage. They participate in no EC's relating to and DO NOT write about their ethnicities. Why? Mostly because 1) They've never had much cultural exposure to it. 2) They wouldn't know what to write about!
I hate to generalize, but *I have* seen these people before. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I used my surname to my advantage without speaking the language in which it originated.

HTH

By Xranger (Xranger) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 12:17 am: Edit

Who's considered minority?
like if I'm from indonesia, it's in asia, so would I be considered minority or not?

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 01:34 am: Edit

This is one of the main problems with A.A. It labels people as victims by the color of their skins or their ethnic orgin.

By Azteca199 (Azteca199) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 08:06 am: Edit

To the OP, lying on your application is illegal and a prosecutable offense! So be careful and call the school and ask for their specific definition. Also many letters are sent to minority students with high sat scores as a matter of outreach. This does not primarily mean they are recruiting, it means the outreach department wants to help you fill out the application or complete the process. Many students who are URM and poor have parents who are unable to help them with essays and applications, and application fees.
Early academic outreach programs seek qualified students who may not apply otherwise if they were not contacted. Also to aid in any way they can to provide the resources that many of their parents cannot. So before anyone goes on a tirade about AA, just step back and understand what kind of letter you are receiving. My boyfriend, was such a student, his parents immigrated to the U.S. when he was young and speak conversational english. He did not plan on applying to a large university, since he had never been exposed, but because of outreach he applied. Yes he was qualified (no AA in CA, I know people will argue this point, but he was very qualified none the less),but did not have the exposure and his h.s counselor took no interest. He has succeeded at the university, even tutoring many of his peers, and will be attending graduate school.

Gangstar,
If the school discovers that your friend lied on his application he will be dismissed from the university, made liable for any financial aid received, and possibly prosecuted. READ WHAT YOU ARE SIGNING! Also, it is likely he will be discovered since your ethnicity is on almost every single piece of paper you recieve from the University. When you registar for classes, when you visit with your department counselor (which is even required at larger schools) they will all see ethnicity maked as African-American. Another thing for the OP to consider, since everyone at the University will know you as Hispanic. Then when you apply to graduate school, and some jobs require transcripts that have all your personal information on them. A lot of things to consider, and ganstar your friend is super dumb and ethically bankrupt.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

It is a mistake to assume that just because a person self identifies as being a URM and gets solicitations from colleges that the person will have an automatic nod from colleges if they apply.

First, for Hispanics, the URM tip tends to go to Hispanics who truly are underrepesented in colleges. These tend to be people from Spanish speaking households, and people who have a parent who is Mexican or Puerto Rican, particularly those who have recently come to the US. Such people get the tip because when it comes to students like themselves, on the average, board scores are low, high school drop out rates are high, and few are headed to college, and even fewer have the backgrounds that would allow them to succeed at the top colleges in the country.

Someone who comes from a professional family from South America who are native English speakers and who has absolutely nothing in their background indicating a strong connection with Hispanics (such as doesn't take Spanish, isn't in any Spanish or Hispanic-related clubs, doesn't write an essay focusing on any aspect of their ethnicity) isn't likely to get a tip. Someone similar whose Hispanic connection is only having had a grandparent or great grandparent from South or Central America or the Spanish-speaking Caribbean isn't going to probably get any tip.

Someone who clearly has very little emotional connection to being Hispanic but who tries to get in by suddenly acting like they identify with Hispanics is likely to turn off admission officers. Remember, there's a good chance that someone who is Hispanic and who also identifies with a Hispanic culture will be one of the application readers. This is typical. Such a person is likely to have great radar for spotting the fakes and is also likely to have a very strong negative reaction to admitting such students.

Oh, and when students who self-identify as URMs are accepted, their names are passed on to the campus multicultural coordinator and the clubs serving URMs, and possibly even to URM alums. Such people then attempt to mentor and otherwise befriend the students.

If a student has lied about their race or ethnicity, this could have very serious repercussions. Should such people realize that the students lied about their ethnicity, they also will let the admissions office know, and admission may be cancelled because the student lied. This can happen even after a student registers, and heck, even after the student graduates. A degree can be revoked if a student entered under false pretences. It's a very stupid risk to take.

By Dday2004 (Dday2004) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 01:43 pm: Edit

"And, if you're a critic of AA, it is the height of hypocrisy to use it when it suits your needs. It shows a definite lack of conviction/morality. "
-Candi1657

I really don't know about that one. The thing is, I think most people are against it, but most people, given the chance, would use it as well. If there is an advantage that is open to you, use it. Life is just not fair. You just gotta use the opportunities you get.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 01:53 pm: Edit

"I really don't know about that one. The thing is, I think most people are against it, but most people, given the chance, would use it as well."

This only shows that the majority of people lack conviction/morality. That they would have no problem supporting an opposing system that they knew unfairly benefited them to the disadvantage of others, purely because they were the beneficiary. However, shoes being switched, they would suddenly become self-righteous and cry out "equal-rights". This shows only that the majority of people are mired in hypocrisy and self-interest.

By Tri_N (Tri_N) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Candi, you need to lay off your sense of righteousness because you yourself is a benefactor of AA.

If you want to be self-righteous, why don't you call all your colleges right now and beg them to judge you on a fair scale along with the rest of the applicants. All of us are human. If an opportunity is being presented, all of us will take advantage of it. If I'm an URM, would I take advantage of the system? Yes. However, would I lie to receive the benefit? No.

I think this is the line where all of us are trying to draw in this thread.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Tri N, the point is that I don't lay a claim to self-righteousness like those who condemn AA and then would use it if it would benefit them.

Simply stated.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:06 pm: Edit

I only have a problem with people who say that AA is an assault on "equal rights" and then demonstrate that "equal rights" are only important if they are not the one who feels their rights are being infringed.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:13 pm: Edit

And I'm not arguing whether AA is right or not, because it would be impossible, obviously, for me to be impartial.

By Tri_N (Tri_N) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

You don't think that handicapping a racial group for another group is an infringement upon their rights. Equal rights mean that everyone should be judged on the same merit.

Finally, what makes you think that the people condemning AA would the same people who would use AA to benefit themselves? Your view is limited to yourself. You shouldn't categorize others when you haven't stepped into our shoes.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Read post just above you and read earlier posts.

By Gumbino (Gumbino) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Candi, my rights aren't being infringed, but I do care about students like my son's classmate, the son of Asian immigrant parents. He took much harder classes, yet has a better gpa and far better test scores (and comes from a poorer household) than a girl who went to the same school, and is a native speaker of English, but has a Hispanic surname.

She got a National Hispanic Scholarship --and a free ride at a state school. He got --nothing.

I think the kind of cynicism expressed by poster #1 is inevitable when AA programs are structured the way they are.

Maybe some private institutions scrutinize their URM applicants carefully, so that only those who come from underprivileged backgrounds reap the benefits at those particular schools. But I think we have all seen cases where the benefits are almost automatic, raining like manna upon some good-but-not-great students because of their skin color or ethnicity, and not because they have suffered adversity or made extraordinary achievements.

If the AA system were changed to embrace students based on underprivileged economic background, rather than race or ethnicity, I think you would find that that cynicism would disappear.

Btw, I know from your other posts that you went to a poor high school in NYC. You are obviously well-qualified to compete wherever you go.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Gumbino, I understand what you're saying completely.

By Valducky (Valducky) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Fakeplasticglove made a really good point. It looks good for a college to have diversity. Many people want the schools they go to, to have diversity. It makes their college a lot more interesting. This diversity applies to many different areas and not just race. Colleges don't admit the top qualified applicants for a reason (and thank god for anyone NOT in the 90% of stats). A college that did would be flooded with over-achievers whose only goal in life is to study and eventually graduate from a top university. These kids will probably add little to nothing to the school and spend every single night studying in their dorm room or library.

Racial diversity is the easiest to catalogue. People who get the bad end of the stick in this area are often the biggest critics. Other areas of diversity is a lot harder to catalogue. Since people can't often see actual statistics in this area, then no complains about that. Affirmative Action is merely the scapegoat for a lot more reasons for rejection.

By Azteca199 (Azteca199) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:09 pm: Edit

okay this is my last post because I am so fed up with this site. Really, I am a Mexican-American and there are so many students and parents here who totally dominate all postings with their ranting and ravings about AA, and their kid didn't get into Yale or Harvard. I thought I could impart some of the knowledge I gained from college and working on campus for several years but my time is squandered on people who want to blame everyone else and are devoid of morals if it gets their kid in. What kind of lesson is this to teach our children. I hope my sister does not attend school with any of you. She is a sweet wonderful and well rounded teenager and I stupidly, thought I could gain more insight into schools for her if I went on some of these boards and heard from students but this is not the case. I simply feel sorry for these students who blame others for their failures, and see a problem with a miniscule number of students acquiring help with their applications from outreach services, really really sad.

By Azteca199 (Azteca199) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:10 pm: Edit

P.S. Riz do whatever you want, if that's how you want to get ahead in life, go for it! Obviously, no one taught you any better.

By Tri_N (Tri_N) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Nobody is blaming anyone.

I think AA has a noble purpose but I think it would be better suited if it categorizes people with accordance to the difficulties faced instead of race.

If AA stresses economic status over race, I will support it 100%. Most politicians claim that AA will grant opportunities to impoverish children. If that's the case, shouldn't we target impoverish children?

By Nsmith1 (Nsmith1) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit

I'm going to open myself up to attack again, I'm sure, as happened to me on an earlier thread on this same topic. I am a Caucasian parent, born and raised in a state where we have a very heavy population of Native Americans. My spouse has an Indian roll number, but is only 1/16 Indian (documented) and 1/???? undocumented. Consequently, my two boys also have Indian roll numbers. As long as my husband can remember, he was told to ALWAYS put his roll number on anything asking for race or ethnicity, even though he doesn't look Native American. All the Native American roll members we know do the same thing. This is because, in our state anyway, a huge amount of funding for schools, hospitals, institutions, etc. is based on the number of Indians (or part Indians) using the service. Many of the tribes contribute part of their budgets to the public schools based on whether the schools serve a certain number of children of that tribe. So, we don't give it a second thought. But you should have read some of the things that were said about me on another thread, when I stated that my son had put his Native American roll # on his college apps!

So, yesterday my son and I were privileged to attend a Diversity Day at a large university in a bordering state. While my son was in one of the sessions, I sneaked out to speak to an admissions counselor. I asked her whether we had "cheated" or done something wrong in any way, by using my son's Indian Roll number, even though he is definitely far less than 1/4 Indian. She wanted to know where I had gotten the idea that he had to be 1/4 Indian. She said that is a battle they constantly fight. She indicated that what they (this particular university) are attempting to do by focusing on URM's is to gain sufficient diversity so that minority students are no longer uncomfortable applying to their university. She was thrilled to have my son apply - regardless of his cultural background and minimal Native American blood. They had 397 students in attendance at the Diversity Day. Of the 397, 289 were African American, 6 were Asian, and 2 were Native American - including my son. I asked her why so few Native Americans, and she indicated that when they do recruiting trips to Native American areas, students indicate that they don't want to be "the only ones", so the universities are trying desperately to get their numbers up. In her view, a good way to do this is to encourage the mixed-race applicants to apply, and gradually over time, as the university's numbers improve, hopes are that additional full-blood Native Americans will apply, and won't be as concerned that they will be unable to fit in. She added that they don't care whether the applicants are rich or poor - this particular college has minority scholarships that HAVE NOT YET BEEN GIVEN OUT THIS YEAR because of a lack of applicants.

So, perhaps that gives you another perspective. And please, I don't need any more bashing. I'm just repeating the gist of the conversation - not trying to sway anyone to my particular point of view. I've learned my lesson where this particular topic is concerned.

By Nsmith1 (Nsmith1) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Oops! Scuze the typo - I do know how to add a little better than that. Should be 397 students attended, with 389 African American, 6 Asian, and 2 Native American. Sorry about that! Shows how nervous I was about even posting on here again...

By Midwestmother (Midwestmother) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Throw in to the mix the changing profile of what qualifies as a hispanic URM. On the Yale Medical School admissions website, underrepresented minority hispanic applicants are clearly defined as those of Mexican and/or Puerto Rican heritage. Those of Cuban and South American heritage are no longer included in this category.

By Midwestmother (Midwestmother) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Oh, and by the way, Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. One can be a white Hispanic, a black Hispanic, or a mixed race Hispanic.

By Valducky (Valducky) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Thank you for sharing your experiences Nsmith. I doubt the 1/32 Indian any difference to the admissions department(I sure hope not at least). If the father is 1/16 then that would mean that 1 out of his 16 great grandparents was Indian. For the son that would mean 1 out of his 1/32 great great grandparents was Indian. How in touch is your son with present day* Indian culture?

Blood quantum is actually quite foolish and it is sad that Indians often have to "prove" their Indianess. People should actually identify themselves with respect to culture than to blood quantum. There should never be any"I am 25% Jewish, White, Black, etc. You either are something or your not.

***
I say present day because there are too many white shamens and plastic medicine men in the world. If you want to learn more about Indian culture, learn it from an Indian and not some textbook that was written from a White perspective.

By Nsmith1 (Nsmith1) on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

My children have learned it from Indians - not textbooks. Fortunately for them, they are descended from Indians who, as is quite common in Native American culture, told stories, and as members of a civilized nation, began writing them down eventually. My children's grandfather was told stories as a very young boy, by his own grandmother, and he has passed them on. So while we don't live on a reservation, my children know far more about their Native American heritage than most non-Native American children ever learn about their own. They live within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation, and have cousins who still live on the family's Indian allotment granted back in the early 1900's, for which we have the original paperwork. So their education on their Indian heritage has not been slighted in any way.

By Evrythingonebad (Evrythingonebad) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

"However, shoes being switched, they would suddenly become self-righteous and cry out "equal-rights". This shows only that the majority of people are mired in hypocrisy and self-interest."

Oh, I agree. People are mongrels. They take whatever opportunities they get to get ahead in this world. No ethics. What can you do about it?