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why do people do this? isn't the sat II designed to show achievement in a particular subject, as opposed to testing your nationality? it detracts from people who study hard in languages that are not their native tongues when an 800 on the chinese w/ listening is only the 62nd percentile because so many native chinese take the exam. this is just an example.

i'm not trying to criticize anyone personally, but i find this a bit disturbing.

By Gracious95 (Gracious95) on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

I don't think it's a bad thing, I just think that taking the SAT II in your native language proves that you "really" know that language. As a thought, I would guess that most of the Spanish-speakers I know would get a super-low score (or bomb it all together) if they took Spanish with listening. The test can seperate people who "really" know it from those who only know the slang. Like, take two people:

Person #1
-Lived in Puerto Rico (and went to school there) for a few years
-Moved to the USA and is fluent in English
-Can speak properly, read and write well in her native tongue

Person #2
-Born and raised in the USA
-Learned Spanish in the home, but never spoke it elsewhere
-Is only able to speak Spanish slang, or "ghetto" Spanish
-Can't read or write

These are both Puerto Rican girls I know, and both would be considered Spanish speakers. But, it is clear as of who really knows the language, and who only has limited skills. The SAT II language test can pinpoint the people who "really" know the language.

By Wizzz (Wizzz) on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 10:20 pm: Edit

I agree. As I have been saying, even if you know a second language really well for all your life because you are from that country, the verbal part of the sat 1 and writing sat 2 will be the challenge and might be lower score than native english speakers - thus it all averages out.

And as Gracious95 said, there is a difference between understanding a language and really knowing a language with the grammar, spelling, ect. The latter is much more difficult and if you know a language that much in depth it should definitely count for something and you should definitely get credit by the college.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 02:26 pm: Edit

But don't you find it a tad ironic that the average score for the chinese w/ listening is 757 and the majority who take it are native chinese...That suggests something. What is so remarkable about knowing your native language in-depth??? The SAT II is not supposed to test native mastery, but acquired skill.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:11 pm: Edit

That's why a lot of top schools don't accept SAT II's in the native language.

By Aznxskitto (Aznxskitto) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

just look at it this way..the people who took the test in their native language had to learn the language too. its not like they were born and knew the language automatically. sure they got more years of learning, but heck u coulda hired a mongolian tutor in 2nd grade and still be same situation. [assuming ur not mongolian]

By Chrysanthemum (Chrysanthemum) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:13 pm: Edit

The thing with the chinese SAT II is that not every chinese native person can take it. You only take it if you REALLY know the language, and that is why the scores are so high. Its definitely not for someone who is just going to wing it.

-jess

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:54 pm: Edit

but you learn your native language during the "critical period". basically, any young child can easily master two languages. it's only afterwards, in young adulthood that you lose much of that plasticity.

of course, not EVERY native chinese could take the exam and do well on it, but realistically if the population taking it were more diverse, there is no way that the average would be so high.

By Binarystar (Binarystar) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 01:17 am: Edit

I've seen the Korean SAT II, and it's ridiculous. It's something a Korean child would take in elementary school. Besides, if you speak the foreign language at home with your parents, I don't think the schools give a hoot about your SAT II score. They pretty much expect a 800 if that's the case.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit

From numerous threads on CC and from looking at the percentiles, you can easily deduct that Foreign Language SAT-II are of various difficulty. It seems that the Chinese and Korean tests have turned out to become a big joke as the tests attract 99% of the people who should not take it and due to its overall simplicity end up having a ridiculous curve.

Except for abusing the loopholes in the UC scoring system, it seems that taking this type of SAT-II test serves little purpose.

By Mnm86 (Mnm86) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 02:12 pm: Edit

i went to french school until 8th grade, at which point i switched into an american hs because i wanted to attend college in the us. (i've lived in the us all my life) i chose not to take the SATII in french because i felt that colleges wouldn't care (i did however, take the ap and got a 5.)

By Binarystar (Binarystar) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 02:13 pm: Edit

I've seen the Spanish one as well. It's ridiculously easy too, especially for natives.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 02:33 pm: Edit

The French and Spanish ones are NOT ridiculously easy as they require a pretty good grasp of grammar. Take a look at the percentiles to gauge the ones that are way too easy.

By Dadams48 (Dadams48) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

I took the German SAT II but German is not my native language I just lived there for several years. I think that it's ok to take the SAT II's in your native language but I don't think the colleges will care that much since it's obvious that you'll get a good score if you've spoken the langauge all your life

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 03:08 pm: Edit

of course it's ok, everyone should do as they wish. my question was if it's equitable.

By Binarystar (Binarystar) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

" The French and Spanish ones are NOT ridiculously easy as they require a pretty good grasp of grammar. Take a look at the percentiles to gauge the ones that are way too easy."

Natives pretty much have a good grasp of grammar I'd say...

I guess it can be hard for some people, so I retract my statement. However, it IS ridiculously easy for natives.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 04:04 pm: Edit

According to an article in the LA Times a few months ago, the SATII foreign language tests are designed for non-native speakers and are at about the 3rd grade level. Most native speakers of a given languge can ususally read or speak it at the 3rd grade level without very much difficulty.

By Wab (Wab) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I agree with some of you... I think it's pretty unfair. I mean, it's really really hard to learn languages when you get older... and although it may take work to learn Chinese or Spanish or whatever when you're born, you have to learn a language when you're born anyways... I'm sad because I've taken French for 5 years but I don't think I'll be good enough to beat out or even tie with the native speakers...

By Musefinity (Musefinity) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 08:20 pm: Edit

I don't think it's bad. It's an unfair disadvantage to those kids who are scored on their verbal performance on the SAT when it's not even their native language.

By Hnbui (Hnbui) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 08:35 pm: Edit

you can take it but the college you are applying to prolly will not care about it. They know that you are taking the easy way out by doing that.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 08:51 pm: Edit

musefinity

they should be scored on their verbal performance, because it's an american school they're applying to and they should be able to fluidly communicate in higher level english. if you can't...that's too bad and it doesn't make any sense to go to an american school.

By Musefinity (Musefinity) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Good point, but you can fluidly communicate and be successful at an american university without getting an 800, but it'll still hurt you.

Plus, plenty of people who don't speak English as a first language ARE American. Where the hell do you want them to go?

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit

most universities don't expect you to have an 800, but you should still have a competitive score (this is subjective, of course, from college to college).

i go to an inner city school, so i know quite a bit of people that fit into that category. just because english isn't your native language doesn't mean that you can't score well on the verbal, i know a lot who have done it. for those who are not as successfull in mastering english, there are post-secondary schools that teach basic skills. one can't just expect to go to a competitive american school without acquiring those skills.

By Sammywu (Sammywu) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit

-- Candi1657

I am an international from Taiwan and get 800 on Chinese with ease. I don't understand why some people are whining the unfairness of the test. Such statement is totally subjective. Since it is true that it is hard for people to learn a new language (such as Chinese) for Americans, but it is also true for international students to learn English and do well on SAT Verbal section.

Think in this way.

All internationals are required to take SAT Verbal, but no colleges require people to take a language SATII.
I came to U.S. one year (as a freshman) and took PSAT. I got V32 M61 W33. Do you think PSAT is fair for judging my intelligence? I don¡¦t think so. All colleges know that 800 on Chinese is easy for a native-speakers. But Chinese SATII definitely not weighted as much as SAT. Instead, I know that internationals see Chinese SATII as a freebie from College Board. Anyone won¡¦t mind getting a free 800 just to balance a low Verbal score (like 400).

However, while SAT1 (and maybe SAT II Writing) plays a vital part in admission process, 800 on Chinese SATII only treat as a bonus (a small one.)

Which one do you rather have?

A. 800 Chinese, 400 Verbal, 400 Writing
B. 700 Verbal

P.S. how about the College Board add a 20 minute essay, literature analysis, analogy, and sentence completion on SAT II Chinese. I guess that would solve the problem.

BTW one year after my disastrous PSAT, I got 580 verbal, 710 Math, and 630 writing. I know these scores are low. But I work so hard to have that much improvement.

If anyone think my post is offensive, I apologize for that.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:09 pm: Edit

The SAT I verbal SHOULD play more of a role than a foreign language SAT II, because you are going to school in AMERICA...

Look, if I came to Korea and expected to attend a institution of repute I would HAVE to master Korean in order to attend. I would not expect them to feel sorry for me because Korean is not my native language and it is difficult for a non-native to learn, I would suck it up and take it.

The reason that the College Board does not add essays, analogies, etc., to the language SAT II's is because they are to test a non-native's skills in a language they have learned in secondary school. They don't expect them to have the mastery of a native.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

I don't believe either the PSAT's or the SAT's are a measure of intelligence. The SAT I is, however, an American college entrance exam for American schools, nothing more, nothing less.

By Binarystar (Binarystar) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Sammywu, the verbal portion of the SAT I is much more difficult than SAT II languages. If there were language SAT IIs that were a bit tougher for the native speakers, there wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands, the language SATs are ridiculously easy for a native speaker. Native speakers have had years and years of preparation for it, while the recommended amount of preparation is usually 2 - 4 years at MOST.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

And just the basic fact of the language SAT II's design (at or around the third grade level) is telling...It means that the test is not for natives.

By Binarystar (Binarystar) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Musefinity, the reason schools emphasize on English is because you are applying to an AMERICAN school, where all the courses ('cept foreign language ones, of course) will be in English. It's silly to say that the emphasis placed on the verbal portion of the SAT I is 'unfair'. If you don't like it, you can always apply to a school where they teach you in your native language, where you would have advantage.

By Sammywu (Sammywu) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Candi1657 + Binarystar

SAT verbal sucks. But I work for it and I am happy with my verbal score. Since I will be going to a technical school, English is not that important for me.

At least I don't envy those who got higher verbal than mine. But why are you guys jealous of Chinese(or Korean) 800 people? Or are you afraid of the competition from international students?

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:41 pm: Edit

It has nothing to do with jealousy, that's laughable.

I have never taken a language SAT II, so I'm pretty objective on this subject. But just the other night scrolling through posts, I was wondering how frustating it must be to work hard on a difficult language that is not your native language, take an test that is meant for people like you, and then score in the 33rd percentile or something with a relatively competitive score. Just because people that weren't meant to take the exam did well on it as expected.

p.s., Most of the time, international applicants are not really in direct competition with other applicants (because of limited funds, etc.). And even if they were, I wouldn't be the one not to wish them well.

By Dasweepa (Dasweepa) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

If you want a source of comparison, try looking at the TOEFL, especially if your first language is English. It is a freaking joke. That's most likely how others feel about taking these "tests" in their native languages.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

dasweepa

good point!

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 01:57 am: Edit

But Chinese SATII definitely not weighted as much as SAT

It does in the UC system. A 800 on the SATII Chinese test counts for exactly as much as a perfect 1600 on the SATI.

No wonder Samsung gave $500,000 to ETS to make sure to offer a Korean SATII.

By Wjk323 (Wjk323) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 04:14 am: Edit

Xiggi.
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh~~ (the be quiet sound)