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Just curious but do you think Blacks or Hispanics are more sought after in Ivy admissions. I was having a discussion with someone on the subject and we did not agree with each other.

By Usna_Reject (Usna_Reject) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 09:07 pm: Edit

I think they want the smartest kids they can get

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 09:14 pm: Edit

Blacks.

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 09:25 pm: Edit

blacks with good records are rarer, i think.

and also hispanics were never enslaved.

but in both cases, Ivies are only barely lenient.

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 09:54 pm: Edit

That's untrue, I think, Sadeyedlady. They're seeking to create diverse classes, and minorities with fantastic scores are, simply put, a rarity. Something like 70 or so blacks get over 1500 (I think that was the statistic) every year. Yes they get fought over, and yes, if you're a minority with that sort of score, and everything else is decent, they will probably admit you, whereas a non-minority with higher scores/grades will often be rejected. It's not racism, it's not any of that, it's just a numbers game. They are more than 'barely lenient,' because they have to be. That's not to say the minorities who are accepted aren't qualified - indeed, they are. But so are 80% of ivy applicants in general. And unfortunately only 10% (15, 20, whatever) will be accepted.

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:05 pm: Edit

well, ive heard different info on both sides.

on review.com, a guy who used to be an admissions officer said minority status does not count for THAT much.

and a guy with low grades but a high SAT was deferred from carleton ED, so a minority with a high SAT isn't "fought over" if he has high scores unless other things are good as well.

on the other hand, my sister worked in admissios at a pretty good non-Ivy (Vassar) and said that they weren't that selective when it came to minorities just because they are so few of them.

but she got rejected to Brown and had very high scores, excellent grades, leadership stuff etc.

so I don't think it counts for that much at Ivies, but it counts for more other places.

As for being "fought over" I don't think that's really the case.

I have a 1460 and the only thing i ever got was a plane ticket to Yale which i didnt use and a dinner from Mount Holyoke, which is probably a lot less than what athlete's get

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit

"the only thing i ever got was a plane ticket to Yale"

...*cough*

Yes, obviously you can't pull low grades and miraculously get a high SAT and go to an amazing school (Carleton guy), but really I just can't see how it couldn't make a HUGE difference, with all these campuses pulling for diversity. Princeton, for example, has 8% African Americans. That's about 95 in each class. Simply given the statistics, and Princeton's average SAT scores, the probability that the top half of those black students had the same average statistics as the top half of students in the university on the whole, is essentially nonexistent, unless a huge majority of the high scoring blacks went to Princeton. The boost is definitely there.

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:24 pm: Edit

To add - Harvard: 133 blacks per class. Yale: 106 blacks per class. Stanford: 184 blacks per class. MIT: 62 blacks per class. This is at institutions where the average SAT is nearing or at 1500. Those 75 kids unfortunately can't take up all those spots themselves, can they? Think about it.

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:32 pm: Edit

well, you're only looking at SAT scores.

At the schools you are talking about, they're not that important. Think of all the 1600's that get rejected.

You don't know what other things these students had going for them (such as the fact that they probably weren't spoonfed all their lives like most of the upper class students attending Ivies)

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Ugh. They're obviously important. Otherwise those schools wouldn't have such high averages. Like I said, it's a numbers game. Numbers first. Then they can look at the people. Not to mention, please don't imply that all whites are spoonfed upper class kids, because there are blacks in that category as well, and a whole load of whites (myself included) who aren't. At the same time, you don't know what the THOUSANDS of white kids who had higher stats had going for them, who got rejected regardless. Saying that I don't know what the black kids had going for them is like saying that blacks are inherently better people than whites. I mean, I'm just relying on statistics here, and that's all we can rely on not being admissions officers ourselves. Stastically, their averages are a fair amount below the overall averages at those schools. I don't see how you can deny the strong influence race must have in these decisions.

By Xdtish (Xdtish) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Don't play the "race factor" card as your buffer for admission. Sure it helps, but your intelligence makes more of an impression than the color of your skin.

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:51 pm: Edit

When did I deny the influence of race? I just think in Ivies it is not as important as people make it out to be, otherwise my sister would have gotten into Brown. She got into other liberal arts schools that are just as hard to get into or harder, but she didn't get into the Ivies. All I am trying to suggest is that in Ivy admissions, minority applicants have to have excellent stats to get in, and Ivies are not as lenient as liberal arts colleges are.

Ivies have high averages not because scores are so important to them, but because the average of the people who apply to ivies are high anyway. If you took a random sample of the test scores of people in the total applicant pool for Ivies, it would still be ridiculously high.

I'm also not implying that all white people are spoonfed, but Ivies and elite schools are populated by upper class people. And yeah there are some blacks who are upper class, what's your point?

No one "fights over" Blacks. You read that somewhere and decided it was true without having any firsthand experience. With my own experience, going to a school where many qualified Blacks are going to Ivies, they weren't fought over in any way, whatever that means. They simply applied and got in, just like everyone else. And definitely did not get any special treatment near that of athletes.

My point is, even if you're Black, you still have to be an excellent student to get into an Ivy. I don't think they compromise that much.

Except with SAT scores, which mean nothing.

By May_1 (May_1) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Ugh. They're obviously important. Otherwise those schools wouldn't have such high averages.

I don't get what racial composition has to do with school SAT and GPA averages.

At the same time, you don't know what the THOUSANDS of white kids who had higher stats had going for them, who got rejected regardless.

OK, Let's get real here. You're assuming (1) that thousands of white kids had to be rejected for each URM and (2) that the white kids who have lower stats have something extra going for them that the blacks don't.

Stastically, their averages are a fair amount below the overall averages at those schools.

First, I'd like to see those statistics. Second, which schools are you talking about. When referring to the elites, everyone that is accepted had had the proper preparation for the school, or the attrition rates wouldn't be so low.

I don't see how you can deny the influence of race.

She didn't deny the importance of race, but rather corrected your gross overestimation of the influence of race.

By Xdtish (Xdtish) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:54 pm: Edit

"What's my point?" You just stated my point. Why so offensive? It's just a casual conversation.

By Starmel (Starmel) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:54 pm: Edit

Ok I seriously didn't mean to start some racist struggle here. Even if you don't want to admit it, the truth is that in the Ivys race does play a big part in the admissions process. Otherwise they wouldn't spend so much money and go out of their way to recruit them. I am curious as to why so many people cited blacks though.

By Xdtish (Xdtish) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

opps, read the wrong post.

nevermind guys.

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:59 pm: Edit

"My point is, even if you're Black, you still have to be an excellent student to get into an Ivy. I don't think they compromise that much.
Except with SAT scores, which mean nothing."
I agree with that. I was trying to make the point that indeed they make that (sometimes large) compromise for SAT scores. And yes, SATs suck and don't mean very much in terms of the measure of a person, but they're still a huge factor in college admissions. That is to say, a white kid who randomly gets a 1100-1200 but who is otherwise amazing is most likely screwed for ivies or top of the top schools, whereas a black kid in the same situation may not be as screwed. I didn't mean to sound agressive or anything, and I see your point.

May, obviously there have been no studies done or whatever but I laid out those statistics from which it can be implied that their averages are much lower. You're completely twisting my words and intentions, what you're saying is not even close to what I meant, and therefore I won't justify you with any more response than this. ;P

Starmel, I guess we just got started talking about blacks and kept going. ;P

By Harpersbazaar (Harpersbazaar) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

You all need to get a life. You're either in or your out. If history plays itself out this way, so be it. Suck it up and just deal with it.

--black accepted to Columbia--

By Voigtrob (Voigtrob) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

I guess it's like that "Arguing online is like the special olympics" sign. I won't post a link, because I'm sure you all have seen it. ;P

By Peachieva (Peachieva) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Sadeyedlady:
My friend who's a urm got into Brown ED w/a 1200 SAT/26 ACT. I don't know why your sister didn't get in-bad rec? lack of extracurrics?

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

She didn't apply early decision.

I don't think she would have had bad recommendations, although she was new at her school so they were probably a little impersonal.

But the colleges would have understood that.

Her extracurriculars were good, a lot of volunteer work and community stuff.

Technically, she wasn't rejected but was waitlisted.

By Stepjoe (Stepjoe) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 01:38 am: Edit

Ok back on topic:

So Hispanic 1500 vs Black 1500? exact same person except for skin color. Who do they like more?

Only asking cause I'm a hispanic with a 1500 and I want to win.

By Cornellhopeful (Cornellhopeful) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit

LOL, that's not how it works. They won't pick someone just b/c they're black or hispanic.

By Awe02 (Awe02) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 12:22 pm: Edit

strange how ppl think they sit and compare students like that. they dont take 2 apps and say lets see we have a 1500 non-URM and a 1250 URM, lets accept the URM. they compare ppl with others most similair to them. and its never a comparison of 2 individuals.

By Chillinnigerian (Chillinnigerian) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Its harder for hispanics because some major hispanic groups, such as Cubans, do almost as well as whites overall.

By Harpersbazaar (Harpersbazaar) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Sadleylady,

What school did your sister end up going to?

By Brownsugar (Brownsugar) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

>

That's what you think. Universities spend lots of time and $ courting URMs, whether this be flying them to the university, calling, sending mail, or in that FINANCIAL AID PACKAGE. All these visitation programs that colleges have? Usually for URMs and the whole weekend is spent trying to convince the student to attend. Mind you, this is before they apply! We're talking hanging out with the admission staff, lavish dinners, trips to nearby attractions, etc.

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit

She went to Vassar, choosing it over georgetown, wash u, vandy, and amherst, and a few others i cant remember

By Tylerewell (Tylerewell) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 02:53 am: Edit

urms have the most skewed view of affirmative action. you haven't the foggiest how it feels to see a cuban girl get into your school with an 1150/3.6/2APs while i, the white guy, got deferred with a 1420/4.15/5APs and even double legacy. don't try to pull that "it's about the intelligence" fudge either. they don't give a dam(n) how smart their urms are, just as long as they get the minorities and don't bring down their gpa/sat averages in the process. aa is wrong.

By Brownsugar (Brownsugar) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Tylerewell - If you're against AA, then you should also be against legacy status.

By Tylerewell (Tylerewell) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

colleges survive by alumni endowment. admissions staff will forever be more loyal to kids with legacy because money makes the world go round. you should know that by now. by the way, i was waitlisted at the one school where i had legacy and was accepted at the other 5 (two being more prestigious) legacy didn't do jack for me.