Click here to go to the NEW College Discussion Forum

Hi everyone- I'm a high school senior who has just been waitlisted at Swarthmore College, and am extremely interested in how I can go about distinguishing myself in order to be admitted. I thought I had a very good chance at being admitted (4.0 gpa uw (9 AP's and the rest honors courses), 1460 SAT, 780 avg SAT II (writing, biology, US History), President of National Honor Society, first chair trombone in a number of musical organizations, varsity cross country, NCTE national award winner, nat. merit scholar, summer research @ university genetics lab past 2 summers, numerous other awards...). I also know I had good essay and excellent recs (my teachers gave me copies even though I waived my right). I'm not trying to drop credentials or sound pretentious here- I'm just trying to get a valid assessment of my chances of getting off the waitlist.
I know that my situation is not unique, and that admissions at highly selective schools can be somewhat random and unjustifiable at times, but I have a very strong desire to attend Swarthmore this fall and need to know how to maximize the chances of this occurring. Thanks in advance for any advice- I'll be crossing my fingers.
-CB

By Dadster on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Hi, CB, nice resume! Your situation certainly shows the unpredictability of selective school admissions.

Perhaps some of the admissions pros will chime in here, but for starters, I'd suggest letting the admissions office know of your high level of interest. This should probably be in the form of a well-written letter (to accompany any postcard or form they might have included). If you have established contact with your regional rep, be sure to let that person know of your continued interest, too.

If you have had any major events, accomplishments, or awards since you submitted your app, you should let them know. Good luck!

By Dadster on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 08:14 pm: Edit

After I posted the above, I found this article: Dealing with Deferral or Waitlist status

With your stats, is it safe to assume you've had some GOOD news from other colleges, CB?

By CB on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 09:09 pm: Edit

Thanks a lot for the encouragement. I have gotten some good news from Grinnell and Washington U. (likely letters and nearly full tuition scholarships from both), which contributed to some of my surprise when I finally heard from Swarthmore.
I have considered writing the admissions board a letter proclaiming my interest in attending the school, but I still feel I may need something additional (perhaps additional letters from my counselor, teachers, etc.?). Thanks again for the input.
-CB (still crossing fingers)

By Dave Berry on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 08:27 am: Edit

Thanks, Dadster, for referring CB to my write-up. The lobbying approach I detail therein is quite effective. I have specific examples of how it has worked within the past two admissions seasons at schools like Yale and Barnard.

CB, if you would like to give Swarthmore your best shot, contact me off-line. Keep in mind, though, that waitlists are a little different than ED deferrals. They're more a function of available slots. Small schools like Swat may have fewer openings popping up because of the relatively large number of apps they get. That's why the quality and intensity of your "appeal" is crucial.

By AFL on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 08:17 pm: Edit

CB--I agree with most everything you've already been told, except perhaps for a couple suggestions (so hold that thought for a moment). As Dave Berry recommends, seek out alumni contacts and stay in touch with admission offices as much as possible without becoming a pest. And what you may not realize is that you get a lot of leeway here--probably many more calls and e-mails than you think before you graduate to "pest" status. The key, however, is to never be pushy or rude (you wouldn't think of it, would you?) or your score on the pest-o-meter WILL skyrocket quickly.

Another thing you should do is to try to cook up a gimmick. For example, one artistic young woman I know created (very quickly, I should add) an entire board game, "The Bumpy Road to _____" (won't spill the beans with the school's name here). Setbacks along the way included lousy SAT scores and a "C" in chemistry, but she jumped ahead toward "finish" with a state-choir selection and tennis team championship.

So put your imagination (and talents) to work. A trombone composition ("Swarthmore in Springtime"???) is a thought, but usually visual presentations are better at this busy time of year--tapes may gather dust on the shelves--so make sure you write out your piece (and maybe a decorative cover for the sheet music)? Sounds corny, you say? Perhaps a bit, but, trust me, this is the kind of stuff that admission officials pay attention to.

What they are LESS likely to get juiced up about (and here's where I differ from Dave) are newspaper clippings. My advice? Unless you have been recently singled out in the media for an outstanding and uncommon achievement, I would rethink the press-kit approach. Your inclusion on yet another honor roll, the winning goal you scored in last week's lacrosse game (even the BIG game), or your participation--along with 17 other seniors--in Community Clean-Up Day will not make admission folks do more than yawn (especially at a picky place like Swarthmore).

Likewise, I say don't overload them with another new recommendation unless it's a real show stopper. For instance, if you just finished an internship with a state legislator, then a positive word on official stationery might help further your cause a bit. But to dig up yet another teacher or club leader won't go a long way. You are better off going back to your guidance counselor and begging him or her to bug Swarthmore as much as you already are. Repeat calls from GC's who are willing to say things like, "I can't imagine a better match for your school than our beloved CB," are far more valuable than simply another piece of paper in an already crowded folder.

So, start thinking of that gimmick, and unless it's something that's in terribly poor taste (no for-instances from me this time) then you will find that it may indeed help, and I promise that, at the very least, it won't hurt. Good luck.

By CB on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. Today I wrote what I consider a fairly nice letter to the admissions committee outlining my continuing desire to attend the school, as well as explaining some of my recent activities and acheivements (which have transpired since I sent out my application in December). You certainly present some very intriguing ideas, though- I'll definetly be doing some thinking ;-). I do have two general question about contacting reps, though. First of all, is their a preferred/more effective medium for communication (i.e. is e-mail the best way to make an impression)? Secondly, is it important to have something meaningful to communicate each time a contact is made (or is a more generic "hi there, I'm still interested in attending your school" always appreciated)? Thanks again for the input.

By California Mom (Calmom) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 12:34 am: Edit

CB - My advice is that you send off the nice letter and then forget about Swarthmore, and choose among the two very attractive offers you have from top schools. Think about the messages you have received with those merit scholarships: both Grinnell and Wash.U. would be so delighted to have you that they are willing to pay you to come to their school.

A waitlist is purgatory; it is a rejection with an apology plus a lottery ticket. You will only get in if space opens up, and there's nothing you can do about that but hope. In this very competitive year, it's likely that Swarthmore's yield will be high -- and you aren't the only one on the waiting list.

Grinnell and Wash.U. are fantastic colleges. All the people I know who have attended either rave about those schools. And they have both offered you a deal that is really too good to turn down.

Don't let a waitlist sidetrack you from getting on with the rest of your life. Yes, stay on it; yes, send the letter -- but remember the old proverb, "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush?" - well you've got two lovely birds in hand, and one in the bush.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

By Parental Unit on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 07:11 am: Edit

How does being pro-active with respect to a waiting list sidetrack anyone from getting on with the rest of their life?
The fat lady hasn't sung yet. The linked article plus books like "A is for Admission" show that there is indeed more one can do than sit by passively and hope.
I agree with your advice to send the letter and then forget about it but the "send" part is included almost begrudgingly, as a disclaimer.

By AFL on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 08:01 am: Edit

CB--While it's nice to have a "meaningful" tidbit to add each time you communicate with a college ("Guess what..I've been bumped from #9 in my class to Valedictorian,") chances are that you won't, so don't try to force it either ("I had no mistakes on my math homework last Thursday, and everyone else had at least one.") It's even fine to joke about your situation with your admission or alumni contacts, ("Yep, it's me again, CB, trying to win your hearts as wait-list pest of the year..."); just don't go overboard.

Concerning contacting reps, there is no preferred way to communicate, but a nice touch would be to simply ask, as in "I'd like to stay in touch with you; is e-mail easiest?"

One more piece of advice: I noticed a couple spelling errors in your message above ("achEIvements" and "definETly"--well, at least you didn't say "definATEly!"). I realize, of course, that spelling and grammar rules relax a lot in chat rooms (and you may even spot a goof or two in THIS posting) but do be careful when you correspond with Swarthmore. Make sure that your spell-check is fired up, and give your letter(s) an extra once-over to pick up the stuff that the spell-check may miss.

Finally, keep in mind that waiting lists are, to a great extent, a numbers game. All the cute gimmicks or 11th-hour accomplishments are worth little if a college's yield is high, and no spots open up in the class. That part of this process is really a crap shoot. One year a college needs to dig deep into the wait list; the next year virtually no one gets taken off.

Meanwhile, there's no reason why you can't go in two directions at once. That is, investigate further the two great schools that are courting you and allow yourself to get excited about the opportunities at each. At the same time, keep plugging away at Swarthmore, so that perhaps, by June, you'll have yet one more option to investigate.

By CB on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 11:12 am: Edit

Thanks for the advice everyone. I completely agree with you, Calmom and Parental Unit, about my two other schools. Washington U. has actually ranked quite high on my list, largely because of my interest in medicine and biology (it has by no means been a second choice- my preference has wavered between Swarthmore and Washington U. (and to a lesser extent Grinnell) throughout the past nine months). That being said, I am committed to pursuing Swarthmore not because I am preoccupied with being a Swattie, but rather because I have come so far (in high school as well as the admissions process), and I feel I owe it to myself to fully pursue every option I am still interested in. So, Calmom and Parental, I completely agree with you- Wash U and Grinnell have been in my thoughts even more than Swarthmore lately, believe it or not.
As for my typos, fret not. Message board compositions are more like a "stream of consciousness" exercise for me, and I by no means maintain the same degree of attention with message board posts as I do with formal letters to prestigious academic institutions . Thanks again for the advice, everyone.

By California Mom (Calmom) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 01:32 pm: Edit

OK, CB, but I think maybe God is trying to tell you something the wait list. ;)

If you had to pay full freight at all the colleges, I think it would be worth hanging on for Swat. But I personally think that you would be nuts to pay full tuition at Swat when you can take your pick of WashU or Grinnell for almost free. Swat may have a little bit of an edge on those schools in the rankings, but I don't think it's a $20,000 edge.

My vote is for Wash.U..

By CB on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Well, the thing about Swarthmore is that it has the 3rd largest endowment (for a LAC) in the country, and is renowned for being extremely generous with financial aid (especially for a little ivy). This, combined with the fact that I have been assured financial aid will be available if I am accepted to Swat, has been keeping the possibility alive for me (from a financial perspective). However, you are correct in that there IS no guarantee, and I am very grateful for the message Washington U. has sent me with it's generous scholarship. Like I was trying to say earlier, I feel as though I have already won this admissions game; now I'm just trying to follow through completely on all of my prospects (the icing on the proverbial cake ).

By Dave Berry on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 09:00 am: Edit

I think you are wise to continue following through with Swat, CB. You certainly have nothing to lose. My son followed through with his applications to Cornell, Swat, and Haverford even after an early in (their last EA year) at Princeton. We wanted to test the financial-aid waters.

Swat came in just behind Princeton in its aid generosity. They are a rich school and have the potential to equal (or possibly exceed) your other scholarship offers, although it's hard to tell without knowing your family's situation.

Please keep us posted on developments, CB. It's always enlightening to learn about waitlist sagas. We appreciate your posting here. Keep up the great work!

By AFL on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 10:24 am: Edit

And along those same lines...IF you do get admitted off the waiting list at Swarthmore but you can't live with the aid package that's offered, you shouldn't hesitate to appeal it. There's no guarantee, of course, that this appeal will be successful, but don't approach it with the mind-set that says, "I'm lucky they took me at all. I barely squeaked in, so now I'm just going to be quiet about the perceived inadequacies of my financial aid."

In truth, Swat will take you off the WL because they want you---and also they may truly NEED you. (If it's a low-yield year, admission officials can get nervous quickly.). They realize, too, that if you pass them by for financial reasons, they will have to pick someone else off the WL who was rated even lower than you were (!) So...don't think of yourself as some sort of second-class Swarthmore citizen; if you decide that's where you really want to be, make your best effort to squeeze all the aid out of them that you can. And be sure to tell the Swat team about those big numbers offered to you by their competitor schools. Again, good luck.

By CB on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Thanks a lot for the support and advice, everyone. I'll keep you posted with any news or questions that come up in the future.

By Dadster on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 11:05 am: Edit

Good luck, CB. And watch out for the "grass is greener" syndrome. It always seems that the thing you can't have is the most desirable, particularly if you put a lot of effort into pursuing it. When it comes to colleges, this is often not the case - WUSTL or Grinnell may well be your best choice, whether or not Swat comes through. In any case, good luck and let us know how things work out.

By Roger (Roger) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 09:54 pm: Edit

For those folks dealing with deferral/waitlist limbo, here's a new article that offers hope to those who continue to market themselves: Getting to YES! One Mother's College Admissions Saga. Our own Dave Berry plays a minor part in the drama, but it's really a story of a motivation, perseverance, and suspense... with a happy ending!

By California Mom (Calmom) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Roger,
That's a great article, but in all fairness, it's about an ED deferral, not being waitlisted at the end of the process. By definition, all students deferred ED are still in the running, generally with at least equal chances as the other RD candidates, so of course it helps to strengthen an application.

But waitlisting comes after the class is full. The more prestigious or competitive the college, the less likely it is that it will have to resort to the waitlist to make up for low yield.

I just don't think that the process is quite so easy at that point; I really think it starts to depend a lot more on luck.

I don't think there's any harm for a student to keep trying, of course - I just think that the student should also be realistic and start to make plans for another college.

Last year, the "fun" of planning began for my son as soon as the decision was made. He wore his new college t-shirt to his high school almost every day, he spent time online chatting with other new students via the college bulletin board, we started shopping for and planning for his imminent move across the country. It was a great time, filled with anticipation and excitement. I would hate to think of students missing out on that, while they are still holding out hopes for the waitlist college, only to have their hopes dashed again in July or August when it become apparent that they will never be called.

By Parental Unit on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Great article with a lot of practical suggestions that anyone can use. Loved the happy ending. Thanks for the link, Roger.

By Roger (Roger) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 08:38 am: Edit

Calmom, you make a great point - both deferred and waitlisted status are "up in the air" situations, but there is a significant difference between them. For many, or even most students, continuing to pursue a waitlisted school is probably a bad idea. It definitely postpones the emotional bonding with the new first choice school, and allows the uncertainty of direction to persist. Since the effort to get off the waitlist may well be unsuccessful, it will also make the school the student ends up attending feel even more like a "second choice".

There remains a lot of interest in moving from "waitlisted" to "accepted", though. When we talk about kids falling in love with a school, I think it's because we recognize that the process bears more than a little resemblance to a teenage crush. The student really believes that the college in question is THE one he or she was meant to attend, and anything else will be second rate. In many cases pursuing the waitlist will only postpone the ultimate disappointment, but for some kids it may be worth it. Playing out the waitlist string may avoid second thoughts later, too. ("If only I had tried, maybe I WOULD have been accepted.")

I think the first step in determining whether to wage a waitlist campaign is to realistically assess the prospects. Some schools go deep into their waitlist every year (another way to pump up yield and selectivity numbers!), while others rarely use it. Sometimes, the admissions office can provide an estimate of what the the student's chances really are. Of course, some students should realize they are "courtesy" waitlists - e.g., legacies whose stats don't measure up.

By the way, I think the college clothing idea is a great way to emphasize that a choice has been made and to start the bonding process. As soon as my daughter signed her acceptance, I called the college's bookstore and had them overnight a shirt. My son had pretty much made up his mind during our visit, so we bought stuff on campus. In both cases, the college items got very heavy use for the balance of the school year. Publicly proclaiming your excitement about your new college is certainly one way of putting the other schools behind you.

By Dadster on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 09:04 am: Edit

"I think the college clothing idea is a great way..."

One BAD idea - do a lot of campus visits, and buy a shirt or hat at each one. As soon as a decision is made, all of the rejects never get worn again! Mom, Dad, or Goodwill get 'em.

By AFL on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 10:11 am: Edit

OTOH, many of the teenagers in my orbit seem to think it's way cooler to wear collegiate clothing from any school OTHER than their own. (Though the unwritten rule appears to be that you don't don duds from less prestigious places.) According to that theory, even the "reject" gear sees the light of day, so perhaps it's not such a bad investment after all.

By California Mom (Calmom) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 04:07 pm: Edit

One college that my son was accepted to sent my son a free t-shirt with the acceptance. The school was a safety and my son never seriously considered going there - they didn't offer a very good financial aid package either -- but my son DID wear the t-shirt. Even after he had made his college choice.

So you never know.

It probably helped that the free t-shirt just had a small logo for the school in the corner -- not something you could read across the room. I think my son just thought it was a nice t-shirt, and even though he wasn't planning on attending the school, he appreciated the thought behind the gift.

By Omar Noor on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Wow, i just got done reading from top to bottom and i have to say i learned quite a bit. CB i wish you best of luck, congratulations on all your accomplishments. I believe that if you can show swarthmore, the way you have showed to us all or me at least the passion you have to go there, then i would have to hope, not just for you, but for anyone (including me) who is looking to get off of a waitlist, that you would be accepted.

Not to bother anybody, but i just have a few questions, though i am not in the same tier as CB, i hope that you can show me the same enthusiam you showed him. I guess my situation is unique to me alone, i'll try to break it down for everyone the best that i can. My brother is a junior at George Washington University, he is apart of their selective medical program, a program you apply to after your sophomore year of college. This programs ensures you a place at GW's Med school, without taking your MCATS. There are several of these type of programs throughout the United States; however, they are quite competitive. These programs include 7 year BA/MD programs, which guarantee you a seat in the college's med school.

These 7 year programs are the programs i applied to, unfortunately, but expectidly i was rejected, my SAT's are only a 1250, with an average of 98... I have rowed crew for 4 years, i've volunteered at hospitals, doctor's clincics, and i am currently working in Congressman Peter King's office in Massapequa, New York. I figured, that GW would be a saftey school for me, it is not a tough university to get into, plus considering the fact that my brother goes there, but low and behold i was placed on the waitlist... Now you can imagine what the predicament i have been placed in, luckily a few of the 7 year programs that i applied to offered acceptances to their normal schools, but no schools that i would want to go to, if i had a choice, which may not be the case. I found out today, and wihtout proper consideration of thoughts, i quickly asked the school for an interview. I honestly, with all my heart want to go to GW, however, they only took 7 kids off their waitlist last year... and i am worried about what my future holds. i've jotted down a few ideas, but because it is friday, i will wait till after my interview to do what is necessary... write the proper letters, talk to my "regional advisor", are there any specific questions i should ask the interviewer, my interview is for monday, so not to rush anyone but i could really use some ideas. Thank you all so much for whatever advice you can give.

By Omar on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Just to add, GW currently has 2,000 people on their waiting list, what do i do =(

By Parental Unit on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 11:03 pm: Edit

I understand the similarities and differences between waiting lists and deferrals but I've heard of more kids getting in off waiting lists than getting in after deferrals, even though the waiting list comes after the class has been filled. It depends on the school but do you think that deferrals hold more promise than waiting lists? I'm not so sure.

By CB on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 12:10 am: Edit

It seems to me that a deferral would hold less promise than a waitlist (and I'm not letting my current position taint my reasoning ). The reason this makes sense is because the admission rate (even for the ivies and selective schools) is much greater for ED than for RD(as much as 200% or more). You could easily argue that this is because the ED pool is usually a stronger group of applicants, but it is generally known that admissions officers are more lenient and generous with ED applicants than with RD applicants (largely because of yield issues). With this advantage in mind, it seems only natural that a deferral is more damaging than a waitlist, as gaining admission ED is generally an easier feat than gaining admission RD.

PS Thanks, and good luck to you too Omar!

By Parental Unit on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 06:50 am: Edit

Your reasoning makes perfect sense, it just doesn't reflect what I've heard. Maybe my experience is unusual but I've heard of more kids getting getting in off waiting lists than deferred students eventually being admitted.

By IvyAlumna on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 07:50 pm: Edit

I would be interested in knowing the stats on waitlisted students vs. deferrals in terms of the ultimate success in getting in--but my understanding at my alma mater (an Ivy League school) is that deferred students have a much better shot at being admitted than do those on the "alternate list." Much better only because in some recent years NO ONE was admitted from the alternate list--but certainly not great. Here's the problem, as I see it: Each school in the Ivy League, at least, has lots of intercollegiate teams. Harvard has the most (41) but even the school with the fewest has more than 30 such teams. In order to field competitive teams in those sports, the coaches are given a certain number of slots for which they can made strong recommendations. When you consider how many people this involves (maybe 30 for football, 5 for basketball, 15 or more for hockey and lacrosse, etc., etc.), and you add the number of URM's who are admitted, then the legacies (who must be equal to the admissions pool, but who get the advantage of being connected), you wind up with a large percentage of the class spots taken--even before the very first non-intercollege athlete, non-URM, non-legacy applicant is admitted. NOW assume that some of the "rest" are admitted during ED or EA round...there aren't many slots left. Even so, visit any Ivy League campus, speak to the freshmen at Freshman Week, and you'll find kids who were deferred ED, then admitted. Even if there are only 100 of these, that's a heck of a better number than 10 or 15 or NONE.

The admissions game has gotten so tough at the Ivies that I view it as problematical for anyone not in an athlete/URM/legacy situation. I personally know no one from my town of 500,000 who got into my alma mater this year (2002). I will learn soon if perhaps a couple of kids I didn't know of were admitted...but I know a boy with a perfect 1600 who was rejected from all Ivies but one, a girl with 800V and 720M and everything going for her you can imagine who was totally left out by the Ivies--she'll be at Washington & Lee, not someplace someone with her stats would have had to settle for even 10 years ago.

Do what you can to demonstrate your interest in Swat, but understand that LAC's have even fewer spots from the waiting list than do the Ivies, so things there may be even tighter. I think you'll absolutely love the two schools which have admitted you and offered you money, and I encourage you to visit during their admitted student days so you can get caught up in the fun and enjoy being courted. Best of luck!

By sorgum on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 12:37 am: Edit

Hello, i just got waitlisted at harvard university. I want to know if anyone has any stats or any advice for being waitlisted specifically at harvard. How many people do they usually waitlist? Are there any special methods that anyone has used to get off the list at Harvard? It is definitely my first choice and I am wishing for them to offer me a spot. how can i make this a reality? I have already given them four extremely good recommendations.

By AFL on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 12:03 pm: Edit

If you're smart enough to get into Harvard (well, almost, anyway) then you're also smart enough to realize that it's probably the toughest place in the country to do time on the wait list because the yield there is so high. That is, the vast majority of students who have been offered those coveted frosh slots will grab 'em.

However, they ALL won't, and that's where a gimmick on your part won't hurt. Of course, you need to do the obvious stuff first that's discussed above. Most important, urge your guidance counselor to call and call again and remind admission folks that you're the perfect match for the Crimson. If you've added any truly extraordinary achievements to what must already be an impressive resume, make sure those get included, too.

Finally, think up that gimmick. For instance, you could design a piece of "Yale stationery" on your computer (make it funny and clearly a send-up; not a true copy of the real thing.) Then, compose a letter. Date it, say, 20 or 25 years from now, and begin something like this, "Dear Harvard Office of Admission, While perusing the latest TIME Magazine cover story about [your name] and his (her?) achievements in [your intended field--and be as specific as you can about what these achievements are--the more esoteric the better], we discovered that [your name again] had initially hoped to be a Harvard student. Luckily for us...." Now you can see where this is going.

Is it brilliant? No, of course not. Is it a bit different than what most of the other waitlist wannabes are doing, as they trot out yet another recommendation or local newspaper clipping? Probably.

However, before you waste any more time and brain power, first ask yourself if you might be what's known in the admission trade as a "Courtesy Wait List." These are students who will rot on a waiting list until the end of time. They are the ones who should have been rejected outright, but land instead on the WL for a variety of reasons. Most typically it's the result of being the son or daughter of an esteemed alum or other VIP (not necessarily college-connected.) Some students end up with courtesy WL status because of a tie to a faculty or staff member. Sometimes, too, admission officials soften the blow of a denial with a courtesy WL when a student comes from a disadvantaged background and has accomplished amazing things, but is still probably not equipped to handle a demanding environment like Harvard's.

If you are convinced that you're NOT on that wait list for one of the above reasons, then you might as well find yourself a clever gimmick because--chances are--you won't get off that list anyway, so you have everything to gain and little to lose.

p.s. Best of luck---and where will you go if Harvard says no?

By sorgum on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Thank you for your advice AFL. I realize that Harvard will be toughest place to get off the waiting list in the country. However, I am still going to try everything i can to get in. I like the gimmick idea you have. I am also going to include a letter expressing my desire to attend Harvard and my recent major accomplishments, such as winning a state title in group interpretation. I also know that I am not on a courtesy wait list (I have no ties whatsoever at harvard and I am not from a disadvantaged background) When i am waiting for harvard, i am going to be enrolling at either Wash U. or Northwestern.

I had a question about your gimmick idea. In the end of the letter what should be put.-We at yale would like to thank you (Harvard) for deciding not to accept this student, for he has been a priceless advantage to our university- Is it something like that?

Also, If I myself wrote a hilarious editiorial about Valentine's Day, and it got great reviews from the editors of local papers, would that be something to include, it would show the funny-side of my personality., and would lighten up the admissions council.

I am very excited about being able to go to Wash U. or Northwestern, but I am still going to keep my head up high for Harvard.

By AFL on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Sure--that ending to your "Yale" letter is exactly on the mark, though, while you're at it, you might also want to reference the new "Sorgum Athletic Center" or "Sorgum Science Facilty" (you know what I mean) under construction on the New Haven campus.

And sure again--do send along your V-Day editorial, but not in the same mailing as the gimmicky submission. You know, space out the bombardment a bit. Don't let 'em forget you're out there.

I'm glad that you can be excited about Wash U. and Northwestern while you continue to hold out hope for Harvard. F.Scott Fitzgerald once said something (and I'm sure I'm butchering it here) about "the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in your mind at the same time..." Likewise, it's important to be enthused about the choices you now have as well as the other elusive option that may or may not materialize.

Which ever direction you head in will be a fine one, I suspect. Let us know how you make out.

By CB on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Sorgum- Good luck with your waitlist, and perhaps we'll meet one another this fall at Wash U.
-CB (fingers crossed for the both of us )

By sorgum on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Yes, definitely, good luck with all your future choices. It would be great to meet up at wash U.
(My fingers are crossed too)-Sorgum

By lost guy on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 03:46 pm: Edit

I just finished reading this board and many of you seem to be very knowledgeable about the entire wait list process. I was wait listed by Cornell University, a school that has become increasingly concerned with number of people enrolled, yield rates, ect. I attended two summer sessions at the school, so my first question is whether I could be a "Courtesy Wait List." Secondly, I was wondering if anyone knew any numbers this year for the cornell wait list specifically. I know last year there were over 2,000 placed on the list, and only 50 received a spot. This year I think that they are doing something different called guaranteed transfer (it could be old and just unknown to me) and I know that the figures are different for each college at Cornell. Also, in my 11th grade year I received poor grades in calculus, and I was wondering if I should address that issue. Any other advice and/or information would be appreciated. And again, thanks for all the discussion that took place before, it has helped me greatly. I will be going to USC or UF honors (in state) if Cornell decides to never make the call.

By Dadster on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Hi, LG... congrats on USC & UF Honors! In my opinion, your best bet on the Cornell waitlist is to talk directly to the admissions office and see if they will give you any feedback at all on where you rank on it, and what their expectations are this year. A 2000 name wait list for 50 eventual openings certainly seems like overkill.

Good luck!

By violinist on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 06:10 pm: Edit

I don't think the "letter from the future" idea is very good. It just has a snotty attitude attached to it: "well, if you don't take me off your wait list, it's YOUR loss, not mine"

By dsb on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 12:15 am: Edit

Hi, i was waitlisted at Harvard also. I am hesitant to send a letter saying that their school is my first choice and that i will attend if accepted because i'm not positive that i will. do you think i have a shot at acceptance even if i do not mail a letter? i would like to keep my options open. i'm deciding where to send in my may 1 deposit- between brown, reed, and uchicago. brown and reed offered me practically full ride scholarships. also, i'm visiting brown and harvard next week (flying out from CA)... do you think i should try and set up a meeting with the admissions office at harvard? is this annoying? any feedback is appreciated.

By Sharik on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 10:48 am: Edit

Hey AFL - I like where you were going with that "gimmick". I find it particularly refreshing as I too was trying to get my wait list college's attention with something off-beat. Do go on and give me any ideas as ingenius that I could perhaps use too get off my wait list. Or even continue with the one you had started, out of curiousity (and simple lack of imagination). Thanks for the great thoughts, and keep 'em coming!

By Chris on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 11:14 am: Edit

Hi, I'm on Columbia's wait list, and according to statistics available on USNews.com, only 6 out of 1119 were successful last year. Could it be an error?! Sounds ridiculous to me.....

Do colleges notify you if you weren't successful?

By Dadster on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 11:33 am: Edit

No, Chris, unfortunately waitlist numbers like you describe are quite possible. If a college gets a higher than expected yield, they may take no applicants off the wait list at all. The wait list at schools like Columbia is just that - a list of applicants who remain interested in enrolling in the event that space is available after they count the number of acceptees who send in deposits. Each year, people who send in deposits may cancel not show up for various reasons, so sometimes colleges have a few openings very late in the season.

I would not expect them to notify you if you aren't successful. Checking in periodically is usually OK, and demonstrates continued interest.

I recommend focusing on your plans for a school to which you have been accepted. I wouldn't hold out much hope on a spot at Columbia becoming available, but you never know... Good luck!

What other schools are on your list, Chris? A wait list at Columbia probably means you got some solid offers of admission, not to mention merit aid!

By Chris on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 11:43 am: Edit

There's so much discussion about waitlistees writing letters; it seems that everyone is doing it. Do you think I'll stand a higher chance if I offer them a binding commitment similar to ED?

I got accepted by Berkeley and Chicago, and was put on wait list for Cornell. As an international student, I didn't apply for financial/merit aid because I heard it MIGHT jeopardize my chances of getting in. Not sure if it's true, but an admissions officer from Penn told me chances are higher if you could afford your own education.

By AFL on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Sharik--In order to offer some off-beat ideas, it would be helpful to know which wait list you're on and also a couple things about you. For instance, what are your greatest interests, both academic and extracurricular? In your application, did you tout any talents in particular areas (e.g., writing, science, music, etc.)?

Chris--It can never hurt to remind a college that, if you're taken off their wait list, you will surely attend. But, as I've mentioned before, if you can put that message in an amusing form (song, story, poem, etc.), especially one that is consistent with your personal passions, it makes it all the stronger.

Keep in mind that plenty of students get admitted off wait lists every year without doing any more than returning the requisite "Sure, I'll Hang on For A While" card, but also remember that gimmicks never, never hurt either.

By Leo on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Wow, Harvard waitlist seems to be a popular boat. It's amazing how little 1570 and a 4.0 will get you these days. I strongly suggest that you guys just give up, though... so I have less competition ;) But seriously, I wish you both the best of luck and thanks to everyone who posted in this thread for providing a wealth of knowledge to get those WL hopes up. If I don't get in, it looks like I'll be going to Columbia Engineering in September. Not the worst thing that could happpen but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

By CB on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 12:19 am: Edit

This is getting to be quite an impressive thread- good luck to everyone fightin' the waitlist, but moreover, good luck and congratulations with college in general. I'll be crossing my fingers for all of us .
-CB

By violinist on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 03:00 am: Edit

Just talked to an admissions counselor today about the CMU wait list for CIT Electrical and Computer Engineering. He said NOBODY was accepted from the wait list last year. I expect the same this year.

By Chris on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 06:22 am: Edit

Hey Leo, I really hope you get into Harvard! Then Columbia will have more vacancies, and that'll increase my chances!!

AFL, the gimmick is a cool suggestion, but I have a feeling I might end up sounding silly rather than amusing. I get your drift though, and I'll work out something. Thanks!

By AFL on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Chris--If you don't want to SOUND silly, perhaps you'd settle for LOOKING silly? How are your computer skills? If they're good, consider something like this: Find a noted photograph of a large group (examples include the animals marching into Noah's Ark, the Munchkins in the Wizard of Oz, etc.) Now superimpose YOUR picture (wearing a sweatshirt that says "Cornell"--or whichever WL you're hot to get off of) into the gathering. Put a competitor's sweatshirt (Penn?) on all the folks in the photo. Then you add a caption... something like, "There's One in Every Crowd." Mail it to the admission office along with a brief reminder that you're still waiting, and that if they take but a single applicant off their wait list, it ought to be you.

One picture can be worth a thousand words.

By Sharik on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 01:39 pm: Edit

AFL – I have been waitlisted at Oberlin College. The colleges I got into are Boston University, Haverford College, Ohio Wesleyan, and Swarthmore College. Surprised? Well, that just goes to show how unpredictable things can get when it comes to admissions. Anyway, I really want to attend Oberlin but pending my decision there I was thinking about Ohio Wesleyan College because of their generous offers (including the presidential scholarship). I feel that I stand quite a strong chance of getting off the wait list as the admissions board seems sympathetic towards me (from what my counselor tells me), and also since they are somewhat apologetic at the current outcome of my application there given my previous almost certain admission. Anyway, I guess it was a particularly competitive year…but what I must now try and focus on is to try and distinguish myself from the other 500 or so waitlisted. I want to be one of those 20 who finally get it.

Perhaps, a major reason for my wanting to go to Oberlin is its world renowned music conservatory, especially since I have a background in music (7th Grade Piano, Sitar). I love writing too. The most important thing to me is to be different and truly get the admission committee’s attention, which is why I suppose your previous suggestions appealed to me so much. I welcome further input. My future at Oberlin hangs in the balance.

Thanks a lot.

By Shennie (Shennie) on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Question for the experts...

My son is going to be a music performance major. His top choice is Rice where he was put on the waitlist. The literature from Rice tells students to go ahead and put a deposit down on another school and then withdraw your enrollment if you get in at Rice.

He has an acceptance at Eastman School of Music. Their literature states that sending in a deposit is making a committment to the school and according to ethical guidelines, they must not enroll at any other institutions. They don't mention waitlists at all. So, am I doing something unethical if we send in a deposit to Eastman while still staying on the Rice waitlist? Because these are 2 different types of schools do they have differing policies? Any insight?

By Long Hoang on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Hi,
It's very interesting reading all the messages in this topic because I myself got waitlisted by Middlebury.
I am, however, an international student and I am not applying as a first-year but as a transfer.
I do not have so the extraordinarily high stats like most of you here do. I do not take the SAT or SAT II or ACT (as they are not required by the schoo.) My TOEFL score is 253/300, I took it 1.5 year ago(I know I can improve my score a whole lot if I take it, again. however, it costs $110, which is, for a Vietnamese student like me, quite a big amount of money.)
I've been enrolled at the University of Montana for 2 semesters. the total grade for Fall is 3.6 (the Spring one is not avaiable at the moment.) and, I guess, I have quite good recommendations from my econ prof and my advisor and two other people.

Well, do I stand a chance? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

By AFL on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 09:01 am: Edit

Sharik--Thanks for the additional information I requested. You really nailed it when you described the admission process as "unpredictable." I bet there's not a long list of applicants who were admitted to Swarthmore but not Oberlin. Katy Fretwell, the director of admission at Amherst College, helps to clarify this process (or at least make it bearable) when she points out that each college and university has its own "institutional needs" that are reflected in its admission decisions. Such priorities, she explains, are likely to vary from college to college, and—-even within a single school-—from year to year. One season, says Fretwell, an institution may be after more women, Midwesterners, or hockey goalies; the next time around it could be scientists or string musicians. “Applicants do not have control over these needs and are rarely aware of them,” she notes. “And, according to outside observers (candidates, their counselors, parents, or classmates), the influence of these priorities may create some mysterious admission decisions.” Or--as Penn's top dog Lee Stetson puts it--there is "some element of crap shoot" about the whole business.

Well, while this may help to explain your predicament, you need to know what to DO about it. If you scroll up your screen a few hundred yards (!), you'll spot the advice I gave to CB, who--perhaps ironically--is hoping to get INTO Swarthmore off the wait list. You'll see that I suggested he use his musical talents to create a composition that expresses his continued interest in that school. Likewise, as a musician, you could do the same for Oberlin. While this idea will make you somewhat unusual in their wait-list pool, I would advise you to go the extra mile--for example, read the brief history of the college on their Web site or in their catalogue and perhaps try to incorporate that in your opus magnus. Show them, in other words, that your commitment is genuine and that you've done your homework.

Another completely different idea just came to me from reading all the questions from the many students and parents on this site and from contemplating the irony of situations like yours and CB's. I imagined a huge auditorium full of high school seniors. Each one had a handful of "admit" letters from colleges he or she didn't want to attend. The students walked around the room and traded letters with each other in order to get into their first-choice colleges. Of course, in the process of trading letters, they had to trade identities too...something along the lines of, "Tell me about yourself, Sharik...where did you go to high school? What are your hobbies? Do you prefer Mahler or McCartney? Sushi or steak? Do you have a job? A dog? Maybe two?"

For the right writer, this could be fodder for a very funny submission (essay, letter, short play, etc.) to help get off of a waiting list. Any takers for this idea or should I save it for my own son in a dozen or so years?

By sharik on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:35 pm: Edit

AFL -- Hey, that was great! The "opus magnus" idea was something really ingenious, and as much as I'd love to do it, it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be once I sat down at the piano. You see, though playing comes naturally to me, composition does not. Nonetheless, I am so motivated and excited by the prospect of being unique and clinching my place in the college, that I guess I'll just have to stare at the Keyboard and hope to work miracles.

The other idea you mentioned, the "writer" one, is incredibly original and humorous at the same time. Also, and more importantly, it seems a bit more feasible on my part, although not as stimulating (and effective, perhaps?) as the first one. However, the only problem is that I did not understand it very well. And how might this interest the admissions staff? In addition, maybe you can elucidate on the concept itself so I can actually picture that auditorium full of seniors. As of now, I hardly see how I could make an essay, a letter or a short play out of it.

As for your "son", I wouldn't worry about him since he probably would have inherited your gift for creating truly inspired (maybe even more witty) ideas. But if that doesn't happen, I'm sure you would have come up with many by that time.

Thanks again.

By AFL on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 08:32 am: Edit

Sharik--I think that the one-act play (and I'm talking a SHORT one-act here, you'll be happy to know) might be the easiest to pull off and also the most likely to be an attention grabber. Just set the scene (A large auditorium, gymnasium, etc., on an afternoon in late April; students circulating with stationery in their hands, etc.) Begin, perhaps, with a conversation between your two lead characters.

SHARIK: "So where did you get in?"

GRAHAM: "Princeton and Haverford. I'm waitlisted at Swarthmore, but that's my first choice."

SHARIK: "No kidding? You got into Princeton and not Swarthmore. (He scratches his head, and looks befuddled.) I'm in Swarthmore but want to go to Oberlin, and I'm on the waitlist there."

GRAHAM: I guess Princeton was just looking for more musicians--or maybe just for science dorks from the middle of nowhere--and I fit the bill.

SHARIK: Yeah,I thought that being a musician myself would give me a hook at Oberlin, but they're probably flooded with musicians already. I should have told them I'm a square-dancer instead. (He grabs GRAHAM's arm and swings him around.)

(The two are then joined by a third student, who peers over their shoulders to see their letters.)

JACK: I got into Oberlin (he waves a piece of paper at the others) but am holding out for Haverford."

Okay, that's enough from me. You're on your own now. You would still be wise to weave in some of the history or other specifics about your top-choice college, but that's just icing on the cake.

As for my son, thanks for the compliment, but by the time he's ready for college, let's hope he'll be able to cybercommute from the living room.

By Dadster on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 09:06 am: Edit

>>let's hope he'll be able to cybercommute from the living room<<

And, after graduation, maybe get a job where he can cybercommute, too? Be careful what you wish for, AFL! Empty-nest life isn't all bad...

By Sharik on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 11:03 am: Edit

Super, AFL. Might just be worth a shot. Hope it works, and I'll keep you posted on future developments.

Sharik

By George Meany on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Call me a crusty old cynic, but I can't keep myself from imagining an admissions rep getting a one-act play about squaredancing waitlistees, then running out of his office and down the hall yelling, "Hey, guys! Everybody out here. You ain't gonna believe this one!!"

...science dorks from the middle of nowhere...? Indeed.

By AFL on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Dadster--I got such a late start at the parenthood game that, by the time I'm an empty-nester, I'll need my kid at home to feed and bathe me or at least to drop me off at the assisted living center.

And George--I happen to know several admission big wigs who are closet squaredancers. Just seeing the "S" word on an aspirant's application would probably be enough to precipitate an affirmative admission decision. These guys are already up to their eyeballs in first-violinists, Model U.N.-ers, and Academic Decathlon champs. It might just take a mention of a dosido or two to make 'em really sit up and take notice. I'm gonna have my son learning to bow to his partner while all the other kindergartners are lining up for tee-ball.

Sharik--Stay in touch. Even if you don't get into Oberlin, maybe you'll launch a lucrative career as a playwright through this ploy.

By Dave Berry on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 05:13 pm: Edit

AFL, your creative contributions to this thread put you in contention for Ploywright of the Year.

By Max Rosenthal on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 11:19 pm: Edit

I realize I'm completely late to this topic and I'm probably being redundant, but I could use some advice if anyone is out there.

I've been wait listed at Princeton, and I'm just looking for some basic tips as to how I might improve my candidacy. Just as background, I go to a military/college prep academy in Indiana. I've sent in a letter of interest with grades, etc., as well as two fresh letters of reccomendation from a couple of teachers. Unfortunately, Princeton apparently doesn't want to hear counselor phone calls, but I'm trying to get in touch with some Princeton alums we know.

Other than that, any suggestions that anyone might have would be helpful. I realize this is all a pretty long shot, but I've really warmed to Princeton recently. Other than that, I'm looking at Georgetown or the Echols Program at UVa, but any suggestions for the wait list situation would be appreciated!

By Reader on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:22 am: Edit

In an old story in NY Mag about a legendary college advisor, there was an anecdote about a client rejected from Princeton. The counselor scrutinized the application and highlighted problem areas, then consulted with the applicant on a letter which addressed each one. The decision was reversed and the kid was admitted. Maybe you could do something similar.

By Dave Berry on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:54 am: Edit

If the rejected client was the legendary advisor's client during the admissions process, I think s/he should have been asking why there wasn't some legendary advice being given up front, instead of after the fact.

By Dave Berry on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:17 am: Edit

For some sobering realities about waitlists, read Jay Matthews' Washington Post article.

By Reader on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 11:31 am: Edit

Fair question, Dave. I don't remember the details, just the startling outcome. Maybe the miracle worker was called in after-the-fact. I think this person has since written a book and her first name is Katherine, if anyone can help fill in the blanks they are welcome to it.

By Dave Berry on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Are your talking about The Truth About Getting In by Katherine Cohen?

By Reader on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Dave, I think so. :=) Thanks.

By AFL on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:09 pm: Edit

A Princeton decision reversed as the result of a letter? Seems to me that, while the counselor extraordinaire was seeking out flaws in the application, someone ELSE on Mom or Dad's payroll was making the Princeton development office an offer they couldn't refuse. (Okay, call me cynical.)

By Dave Berry on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:05 pm: Edit

You're cynical, AFL.

By Reader on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 08:30 am: Edit

Dave, I followed your link and wanted to confirm that the book you mentioned is the one I had in mind.

Another book that might give Max some insights into Princeton admissions is "Getting In" which profiles several applicants as well as Dean Hargadon, head of admissions.

I think you're cynical, too, AFL, though that's not necessarily a bad thing. ;-) It's possible that the applicant was a development case but I wouldn't assume so without cause. Also, if serious money changed hands at Princeton, retaining Ms. Cohen wouldn't have been necessary.

By Dave Berry on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:18 am: Edit

I did a review of Getting In, Reader. I read it in one evening. It's engrossing, to say the least. It includes Hargadon's famous take on why he waitlists Princeton applicants. Another scary thing is when Hargadon pulls a random application from the pile and discloses that applicant's profile. Great book.

The bad news: Things have gotten tougher in the years that have passed since Bill Paul wrote it. Yikes.

By Peggy Fan on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:57 pm: Edit

My counselor won't call the school that I'm waitlisted at for me! They said it's UNUSUAL to do that, to talk to the admission folks about me!

I really doubt my public school counselors know how to play the college game.
I sent in letters and 2 letter of rec in.
I would call the admission office myself too~
but what else can I do?
emailed me please!

By Dadster on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Peggy, you are no doubt right about your counselors. First, read through some of the advice here about waitlists, and then call them yourself. Your call will probably help more than a call from a clueless counselor. Good luck!

By Peggy Fan on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 08:14 pm: Edit

I don't know what do say when I call......... any suggestion besides saying how much I would like to attend the school?

By Dadster on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Peggy, first check Dealing with Deferral or Waitlist Status and read through some of the ideas above. A few specific things you could do:

1) Talk to your area rep rather than whoever answers the phone (if possible).
2) Express your continued interest and enthusiasm in the school, and back that up with why you think it will be a great fit for both you and the school.
3) Ask if they can tell you where you fit into the waitlist, and whether they expect to use the waitlist. Some schools go for years without ever using their waitlist, while others tend to take some every year. Some waitlists are completely out of control, with thousands of names for few, if any, spots.
4) If you have any supplemental info (recent awards or accomplishments, other info you could have included in your app and didn't), send it to the admissions rep.

Most important, start planning for your first-choice acceptance. Don't hold your breath waiting for the waitlist call, it's time to get on with life and your other choices! Good luck!

By Leo on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Hmm, I also went to my guidance counselor and asked her to call Harvard, but I go to a large magnet school, and we have 20 seniors on the big H's waitlist. She says that she can't call for me without calling for everyone; I guess I see her point and I'm not going to argue with her.
In other news, I've seen it suggested that you call one of the departments and talk to a professor there, but I was wondering what in the world I would say to them. "Hi, I'm on the waitlist, I read your article, I'd love to come so I could do reseearch with your department. Could you talk to the admissions people?" Has anyone tried this? Any wisdom to share?
Thanks in advance!

By CB on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Hey everyone- this is CB (the original poster for this thread). I just wanted to update any and everyone who's interested: I just received a phone call from Swarthmore and they're offering me admission from their waitlist!
It's very nice to have another option, but it's also very difficult now, since I will have a very difficult time trying to choose between the school I have already accepted (Wash U) and Swarthmore- financial aid will be a HUGE factor (especially considering the prospect of a lost deposit). Regardless, I feel like I'm in a win-win situation, so no matter.
Really, the point of this post is really to extend my thanks to those who gave me the advice and support I needed around a month ago- so Dave, Dadster, Collegemom, AFL, and everyone else who I may be neglecting, thanks for your help in providing me with a new difficult decision-making process . Cheers, and good luck to all!
-CB

PS If anyone has any questions about what I did to express my interest in Swat, let me know- I'd be happy to help

By Dave Berry on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 07:48 pm: Edit

CB, that's terrific news! Thank you for sharing your happy ending. Thanks also for your thanks. A lot of good people spend significant time trying to help posters here and sometimes their efforts go unnoticed. Thanks for noticing.

I would be interested in knowing what you did to enhance your position at Swat. Did you use any of the tatics mentioned here? How does Swat's aid package compare with WUSTL's?

As for which to pick, I have to admit my preference for Swat. My son was accepted there, but chose Princeton, which was right for him. However, I was very impressed with the quality and immediacy of Swat's faculty. It's one of the most academically intense and demanding LACs in the country, maybe more so than Reed.

Please let us know where you'll enroll, CB. Again, way to go!

By sharik on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 07:13 am: Edit

Hey all,

Some good news here too - I got into Oberlin! Not only that, but I have been offered a full scholarship. I'm also very grateful for all the aid I received on this forum (thanks, AFL).

As CB said, although this is a very nice position to be in (choosing between some of the best colleges), it is also the most confusing. I, myself, have been in two minds about which college I should go to. During the period I was waitlisted at Oberlin, I have had the time to reflect on some of my options and do additional research, after which I found myself falling in love with Haverford College. You see, I had completely dismissed the likelihood of my actually gaining admission into Oberlin off the waitlist (3% acceptance rate for waitlistees), so I had my heart set on Haverford (even though there is no $$$ available to international students, such as myself). You might say that this was just a case of the-grass-is-greener syndrome, but now that I’m actually in Oberlin I can’t help but wonder whether it would be better to go ‘Ford instead. Somehow I feel that the kids would be smarter there. Once again I have come for guidance – genuine pain in the ass, aren’t I?

Once again, many thanks to everyone on this forum for contributing their thoughts, some of which have proved invaluable to me throughout this process. If anyone would like to know what I did while on the waitlist, I’d be happy to share.

Sharik

PS – CB, I’m really curious to know what you did.

PPS – Oh, and, George Meany, I like to think that it WAS, in fact, the one-act play I wrote that nailed it. And not only did he run out into the hall yelling that, but he forgot he was undressed as well!

By Dave Berry on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 08:09 am: Edit

The hits just keep on comin'. Congratulations, Sharik! You did it. Hey, if it's not copyrighted, maybe you could post your little one-act play for us here so that we can see the power of AFL's wisdom. I think George Meany should have the opportunity to see it too! We're proud of you, Sharik. Now go get 'em.

By Leo on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Wow! Congrats on all the acceptances! I wonder how they could make waitlist decisions this early though, since yesterday was the postmark deadline for accepting admission. They must have decided they really did want you in the first place. In any event, it looks like I'm going to have to speed up my schedule for bugging the big H if they're going to have time to consider me before all the spots are filled

By devon on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Hi, I am on the wait list at Williams and I am wondering if it is 'normal' for the wait list calls to come as early as May 1st...does this mean I should be worrying?

By Dadster on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 02:08 pm: Edit

CB and Sharik, those are some great success stories - particularly considering the massive wait lists this year! I heard Columbia put as many people on the waitlist as they accepted, or something nutty like that.

Thanks for letting us know how you made out! And good luck to those still waiting!

By Wondering on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Congratulations to both of you.

What did you do to get in?

Did either school explain why they were going to their WLs this early? It seems really unusual to hear so soon.

By Anna on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 07:57 am: Edit

Hey! I have a question. I am on the wait list at Sarah lawrence- which is deffinitely my first choice, and I want to ask you if I have done way to much and become a pest. Sorry, I just get carried away sometimes. Here's what I've done since I got on the wait list:
visited the college and interviewed with admissions officer
sent admissions officer a thank you note and letter.
sent college one letter detailing my love of it.
sent in a cd of myself singing.
sent in a collage to tell a little more about myself.
and sent in three more recomendations,
as well as a letter from my guidance councelor talking about how much I love this school.
That's way too much isn't it? I've probably ruined whatever chance I had by sending all of that stuff. I'd be interested in anything you could tell me.

By Roger (Roger) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 11:43 am: Edit

>>Who posted under my name before? It wasn't me<<

We spotted that, & zapped the post... I guess not before you saw it, though. Feel free to sign up for an ID, CB, if you plan to hang around. That will prevent phony posts, and also let you get e-mail notification of any posts in a thread where you have posted.

Congratulations on your decision, and good luck at WUSTL!

By devon on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Any other stories of people already being plucked off wait-lists? Love to hear them...

By Charlie B (The_Cb) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 02:04 pm: Edit

The May 2nd post made by "CB" is completely false. I never registered my username (apparently a very unwise decision), and thus someone with nothing better to do has assumed my identity and posted false information about my college plans. To help clear things up, I am still deciding between Wash U and Swarthmore (awaiting fin. aid information from Swat), and have not made a conclusive decision either way. I apologize for any confusion this may have caused, and sincerely hope that my imposter can find a better use of his/her time than fabricating silly libel about my college plans.
I will post more about my true decision as more facts become available (under my new handle).

By Dave Berry on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 02:48 pm: Edit

CB, I have removed the impostering post you referenced. For the information of any pending troublemakers thinking about trying to disrupt our discussion board here, please note that we can read your IP addresses and won't hesitate to delete any posts we feel are outside the bounds of reasonable board decorum. We're not going to entertain the same kinds of abuses that occur so frequently on other college discussion forums. It's our party here and all are welcome, as long as you respect the other posters who use this resource for its intended purpose.

Thanks, everyone, for your cooperation. Let's keep this board a nice place to share.

By Sharik on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:29 am: Edit

Hi again,

For those of you who were surprised about my getting off the waitlist so early, I thought it was about time. A class mate of mine was waitlisted at Bryn Mawr College in early April. Following a relative's advice, she presented the offers she received from other colleges (including their aid packages) to Bryn Mawr, and three days later she received the acceptance letter. I thought at first that this might be a rather risky way to go about it, especially if you set an ultimatum, as the college might flat out reject you. But it worked in her case, and I have reason to believe that this can help at other colleges as well, particularly when bargaining for financial aid.

Sharik

By Charlie B (The_Cb) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 08:41 pm: Edit

To all who are interested: I officially decided to attend Swarthmore College last night after receiving the financial aid package in the mail that afternoon. While I won't go into details, I will say that I was very impressed with the generous scholarship they offered me (which virtually covers the cost of tuition), but moreover I am continually impressed by (and enamored with) the quality and character of the institution in general. The aid package just made it possible for me, and basically sealed the deal.
Regarding my tactics for getting admitted, I did not do anything extremely innovative or over-the-top as some people have suggested on this board (**cough** AFL **cough**). I really made four meaningful contacts, spaced out through the month of April, which consisted of (1) my initial letter (that I sent to the admissions office with my response card, as well as e-mailed to my regional rep), (2) a personal note from my HS counselor (who happens to know me personally and is a friend of mine (how rare, eh?)), (3) an additional recommendation from a truly great history teacher (who was familiar with me as well as the school), and finally another more personal e-mail note to my regional rep. towards the end of April.
Like I said, nothing incredibly unique or off-the-wall, but I really tried to make each step meaningful and informative (it didn't hurt that I had done quite a lot since I applied, either).
Besides the overall content, I think what really helps in getting off a waitlist is the tone you use in communicating with admissions officers. While I would never claim to have extensive knowledge of how this whole process works, I do feel that it's ideal if you are able to show a strong interest in the school without sounding bitter, presumptuous, or obsessed- frankly, to just be honest about your desire to attend the school, and acknowledge the decision is in their hands.
So, that's two cents. Thanks again for all who offered advice- I may not have followed all of it, but I did give everything serious consideration. Hopefully, my experience will inspire, or at least assist, anyone still hoping to get off a waitlist. Good luck to everyone, and remember that the best school isn't always the one where you didn't get in.
Best Regards,
CB

By Helpful Harry on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 06:19 am: Edit

Congratulations and good luck.

For anyone interested, here's another article about wait list tactics:

http://www.dickinson.edu/cgi-bin/nrshow.cgi?2001183

By devon on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 12:30 pm: Edit

I would love to get off my waitlist. This must be such a relief for you, CB.

I have done all the things that you did, but it looks like the ivy's and schools like Williams, Amherst, and Middlebury have yet to make decisions about their waitlists. I have heard of no one who has heard anything from any of these schools. I am asking my counselor to call and see if my choice (Williams) is even taking anyone off their list, and how many spots are open.

This waiting is torture.

By Omar on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 07:07 pm: Edit

hey, congratulations CB and Shark, must be happy to have been accepted off the waiting list. Unfortunately i was not so lucky with GW. I just found out today, that i was not accepted off of the wait list, which is defintely a disappoint to me, becuase GW would definitely have been my first choice. I was just wondering if this is the end... or should i persue this further, i would really love some advice if at all possible... Thank you to everyone from their earlier advice, i used it all, but i guess not enough.

By Chris on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 05:26 am: Edit

Hi,
Congrats to those who got taken off the wait list. I've been placed on the Columbia wait list, and I've been told by the admissions officer that at this point, they're not turning to their wait list at all!!! Poor me....

By Scooter G on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Hi,
CB's story is truly amazing, and I would like to add my own waitlist angst. (For brevity's sake, I will not list my stats, but suffice it to say that they are all-around solid, especially academically, but with no particularly thing that secured my admission to my top choices).
This year has truly been a grueling struggle. I applied ED to Princeton, where (after my application was delayed for a month in anthrax-sequestered mail) my heart was broken when I was deferred. Eventually, Princeton became the only school of the 14 to which I applied that rejected me outright. (In addition, they accepted my girlfriend of a year and a half ED, to whom I had raved about Princeton after visiting).
I have always dreamed of attending Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or Princeton, and right now, the former three have placed me on their wait-list. I have accepted a place in Dartmouth's class, and I know that's great, but I would still LOVE to go to Harvard or Yale (I'm not interested in the West Coast, i.e. Stanford).
I have heard that Harvard isn't taking anybody of their wait-list this year, but I really, really want to go to Yale. Here are the steps I have taken so far, beginning in April:
1) Called my admissions officer and asked him to calm me down/explain the process.
2) Talked to my area alumni reps, who really want me to go, too. The area director actually called the Dean (whom he knows) on my behalf.
3) Composed a nice long letter (as CB did) expressing my desire to go to Yale and updating my accomplishments to go along with my card.
4) Emailed my admissions officer, enclosing a copy of my letter and briefly expressing my desire to attend Yale.
Are these good steps? Should I do more? I saw CB sent in letters from his counselor and a teacher. Is it too late to do this? Should I do this?
Thank you for any help. Your posts have already been an encouragement.

By Chrisd on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Dave, I have a question about waitlists. Maybe this is has been discussed before, and I've just missed it. Colleges accept a certain number of students, and a portion of that number enroll. When I look at these accepted/enrolled figures for schools, it appears that enrollment percentages range from about 75% to 33% of those students accepted. So, if only 60% of accepted students enroll at a particular school, doesn't it make sense that a significant number of waitlisted students would be taken? Or, are schools like airlines, and over-book, or in this case, over-accept? And, if students are applying to 7, 8 or 9 schools, isn't this inflating a lot of application statistics?

By Dave Berry on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Chris, the top schools, Princeton and Harvard, for example, don't take that many (if any) from their wait lists because they don't have to. The overwhelming majority of acceptees enroll. Building a class is a reasonable science. Yields (# enrolled divided by # accepted) are pretty well known due to history. Therefore, if you know your yield is going to be around 70%, you'll admit around 1,000 to get a class of 700. If you fall short on yield, no problem. Just go to the wait list. Colleges always "overbook," as you say, because they don't know exactly what's going to happen. The deck is always stacked in their favor.

When yields exceed expectations, housing shortages develop. That's what happened at Princeton some years ago and they had to erect temporary housing for the overflow. That didn't make university administrators very happy. In many cases at the best schools, wait lists are merely a courtesy to legacies or a way of saying, "You were good enough to get in, but we didn't have room for you."

The large number of multiple-college-applying students is good news for colleges. The more kids who apply, the more kids colleges can reject, thus lowering their apparent acceptance rate. This makes them appear to be more selective and, thus, more desirable. Neat spiral, huh? Regardless of how you interpret these behaviors, they're all in favor of the colleges. However, if you want to see some poetic justice, take a look at the many colleges who still have places available in their fall classes. Not everyone has a wait list. I imagine your appeal as an applicant would go way up if you applied now to one of these schools.

By Dave Berry on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 02:34 pm: Edit

I just heard from one of my high-school-senior pen pals that Harvard has ditched their wait list this year because their yield was so high. Therefore, this year at Harvard, "wait list" = "denied." My apologies if this info has shown up elsewhere on the board here.

By Chris on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:08 am: Edit

I'm not surprised. If Columbia isn't turning to its wait list, I'm sure Princeton Harvard Yale will most probably not use theirs too.

Well, I was waitlisted at Columbia, and I REALLY wanna go there. Can someone suggest what else I can do now to make them reconsider my application? Do universities entertain appeals and requests for application reviews?

By Kora on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 08:48 pm: Edit

I am a senior who has been waitlisted at Princeton. I know that Princeton in general is really tight-lipped about their admissions stats, but I was wondering whether anyone has heard anything about what they will do with their waitlist this year. Also, is there a certain date by which I should hear from them? I know they have to get back to me by July, but I wasn't sure if there typically was some date when selective colleges sent out all of their waitlist admits. Any advice or facts about this are welcome.

By devon on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 02:40 pm: Edit

I heard (on another site) that kids were just starting to be called from the Princeton wait list and that someone who had called there had been told that they would 'take a handful' from their list...good luck!

By Leo on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Oh well, there goes Harvard. So, what's the word on transfer admissions? Harder, easier? what steps should I take to maximize my chances? Good luck to everyone who's posted here with wherever they're going. Good thing I read up on Columbia while waiting for Harvard because it really grew on me.

By Chris on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 04:24 am: Edit

Why don't you just withdraw from Columbia now and make my day? Haha.......

By Yoshi on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 10:55 pm: Edit

Hello,

I found this page at 5 AM because I could not sleep after I got my DENIAL from Harvard after I got waitlisted!

The college admissions process was such an ordeal with me, especially given a counsellor who knows knit about the college application process. To top things off, I got rejected from Yale and Princeton as well.. Which left me with no options but Cornell and Georgetown and I finally enrolled in the second. Some pointers I have:

1) Financial-Aid: the need-blind policy is a joke, especially for international students. And thanks to my counsellor, I was not aware of that until AFTER the April 1 deicisons

2) It DOES make a difference which high school you go to: I know of another school where none of the students topped my SAT score or IB results and still 3 went to Harvard, 2 to Yale and 2 to Princeton (only THIS YEAR!). Difference being that my school never had a good history with the Ivies (I wonder if it has anything to do with the counsellor?)

3) The consellor could make it or break it: especially with the big names. Not everything they want is on their admissions prospectus and obviously, it's the counsellor's job to help you respond what the college is looking for but does not have written down.

It's almost 6 and I really feel like driving to school and having a "talk" with this laid back counsellor for messing up my chances at all of my dream colleges (even with Oxford he mailed them the papers of a CAMBRIDGE applicant from my school -mine being sent to CAMBRIDGE of course.. so there went my Oxbridge!)

I really don't have much to look forward to this fall because it was a one-time oppurtunity that is now absolutely gone. Transfer? though of it, just consider how hard it would be to fit in...

Sorry guys for the mad ravings but I hope others will learn from those mistakes and hopefully have a better chance getting admitted to their college of choice...

By Chris on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:56 am: Edit

Hi Yoshi, where do you come from?
I think it takes A LOT of courage to apply to Harvard Princeton Yale AND Cambridge Oxford. Those are probably 5 of the best schools in the world. Personally, I think it wasn't a very wise choice; you should have applied to a few other schools that are not as selective.

In any case, I think all of you who have counsellors shouldn't complain. In my country, these people don't exist, and we have to do all that research and stuff on our own.

Also, I don't think the need-blind policy at Harvard Princeton Yale is a joke. They are very serious about it, even for international students. As far as I know, they shouldn't jeopardize your chances of getting in.

Georgetown is a great school, especially if you're intending to study political science. I hope you have lots of fun!

By Leo on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 04:04 pm: Edit

I can't remember specifically but I remember a lot of schools specifically say that admissions is NOT need blind for international students. I think Harvard is one of those.

By Just Plain Folk on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 06:32 am: Edit

Sorry about your letdown Yoshi but honestly I think you had a very nice choice between Cornell and Georgetown. Admissions are even harder for internationals so that fact that you ended up with 2 acceptances from the most popular schools says a lot. If you're going to blame your counselor for your denials, you might as well credit him or her with the successes! You have a LOT to look forward to this fall!

Leo, I had the same thoughts as I read the message but I think that recently HY&P have gone need-blind for internationals. I also believe they meet 100% of internationals' demonstrated need - if that's incorrect I hope someone will correct me.

By Chris on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 10:36 am: Edit

I know that Yale's need-blind policy (even for international applicants) started this year. Princeton has also been practising that. Considering that Harvard is as rich as Yale and Princeton, I believe they have the same policy too, or at least I heard from friends who applied there.

By Patrick (Collegebound) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Hi there. This is my first time to use this Discussion page. I wondering what the significance (or lack to of) to have been put on Yale's "shorter/extended" waiting list that goes through the end of June. Having been recently notified of this, I'm still curious to know, in general, how big these lists are, how many they usually take, is it common, etc. And is there anything else I can do to further strengthen my case to go from "wait listed" to accepted" (ie call the admissions director, send more info, etc).

Thanks a lot and best of luck to all college bound students, as well as those just starting the process, on this page.

By joanne t (Joanne0012) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 08:50 am: Edit

Patrick, you can get statistics about most colleges' waiting lists and the number accepted from them (as well as other application and yield figures) at the US News site: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/alpha_dir/

To look at this game from the point of view of the admissions staff: as Dave has pointed out, their goal is to come as close as possible to their target number of kids who actually show up. With the burgeoning number of applications sent out by each student, plus the whimsical nature of schools' popularity (fueled by things like the USNews ratings), it's no wonder that they play a conservative game with the number of outright acceptances, and then turn to the wait lists to top-off the number of kids who actually accept their offers.

One thing that doesn't show up in the US News figures, which only give data for one classs, is that the number of students admitted from the wait list varies a lot each year (highlighting the dilemma from the admission staff's POV). For instance, Brown has a page full of data on their web site, including the numebr of kids accepted from the waitlist for the classes of 2001 through 2005; for these 5 classes, the number of kids accepted from the waitlist was 79, 5, 22, 193, and 89!

http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Admission/profile.html

By Yoshi on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 02:05 am: Edit

Now that the steam cooled off, I thought I might write some updates as well as responses..

Concerning the need-blind policy. I asked a private counsellor (yes, i know i should have hired him to begin with) and he confirmed that my school counsellor told me: "a financial aid request weakens the already slim chances of admissions when it comes to int'l students" (which, of course, he told me AFTER I received the decisions)

As for throwing my applications around... This was not my intention at all, my initial list consisted of: Harvard, Columbia, UChicago and Georgetown... The counsellor saw the list, scraped off Columbia and UChicago ("slum-located" he says) and replaces them with Cornell and Northwestern, then adds Yale and Princeton telling me there is no harm in applying, since my profile is fitting with both.. So that's how it ended up crowded with the Big Three (when I argued with him about UChicago he got offended, I mean it... and yes I needed to be on his good side for a recommendation)

I am aware Georgetown is a great school, but it is still bothers me, that I have to settle with it when students with significantly lower scores and activities got into Harvard...

Attributing my admission to Cornell and Gtown to the counsellor as well? hardly.. One reason they liked me at Cornell was because an essay I wrote and the counsellor sent... which was supposed to go to HARVARD! As for Georgetown, my admission there was almost granted, so it wasn't much of a dream school..

At this stage I am seriously considering re-applying to Harvard as transfer. And hopefully this time I'll be able to avoid the fatal mistakes from my senior year...

By Chris on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Hi Yoshi,
Although I'm equally skeptical about need-blind policies, I choose to believe that Harvard Princeton Yale truly practise it. As for the other schools, I'm sure it will, to certain extents, affect your admission chances. I've asked an admissions counsellor from UPenn, and she admitted it. To put it simply, if they are not ready to give practise a need-blind policy for international students, they will state it, like what all schools, with the exception of Harvard Princeton Yale, are doing.

You definitely would have gotten into Chicago if you had applied. You got a really weird counsellor. Bad luck, dude.

By Yoshi on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Hey Chris,

Have you ever heard of a certain policy with the Ivy-schools in which they coordinate their selection, so that, for example, you are not likely to get accepted in ALL the ones you apply to?

Heh yeah I was rather keen on Chicago, but being from the Middle East I find DC's weather easier to survive through

Yeah I guess he is truely weird, but too late to complain.. Well, what about you how was your experience with the college admissions ordeal?

By Chris on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Hi Yoshi,

Er....no I've not heard of that Ivy thingy you're talking about, but I doubt it's true. Seriously.

Well, my applications were alright I suppose. I had no counsellor, so I depended on my friends and yah, myself. The only thing that ****ed me off was that Columbia offered waitlist to more than a thousand people and accepted none.

By Dadster on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Yoshi, I don't think Ivy collusion on applicants is taking place. They used to coordinate financial aid offers, but that got stopped by the feds.