Click here to go to the NEW College Discussion Forum

Do they actually? This is of special concern to me, as I am an international student and could probably get away with some stuff. That is, if they don't verify.

By Bmckn (Bmckn) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:05 am: Edit

Don't "get away" with stuff. Everyone does a little polishing, but I'd say if you feel like you're getting away with it, let your conscience kick in.

By Bmckn (Bmckn) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:05 am: Edit

Of course, I just don't want you to beat me out at my schools.

By Drusba (Drusba) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:17 am: Edit

Do schools check much? Probably not. Nevertheless, don't lie. One thing people have to be aware of: If a college ever finds out you lied on the application, it has a right not just to rescind an admission but to kick you out of school at any time before you graduate college.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

I'd be willing to bet there is more verification going on than you think, at least with the top schools.

First of all, its relatively easy to spot discrepancies between claimed activities and the recs/other parts of the application.

Next, keep in mind that adcoms are well aware of the tendency to inflate, exaggerate and lie. So, it's not hard for them to send a polite email to a GC asking for a little feedback regarding parts of an application. How do they know the email? experience.

Even with overseas, calls to anywhere are cheap. Voice mail is everywhere.

So, for the prospective cheater, here's your dilemma: You can cheat in a way that will not invite detection. But you can only do this at a level that will have no impact on your application. If you put in a whopper, one that would have an impact, you invite followup and rejection.

Honesty is a lot better, and will probably carry you farther in life anyway.

Dima, I personally find it very disappointing that you even ask the question. You really need to have a good discussion with someone about integrity. It's easy to lose, hard to regain. And, remember, all it takes is for ONE institution to catch on to your game. They do talk among themselves, and one of the best stories to pass on is one about the cheater who got caught. Please, don't add to the story list.

By Dima (Dima) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Thnaks for the feedback Massdad. However, I was only considering, and your posting might just have convonced me! Beside, I've got pretty decent ECs anyway :P

By Massdad (Massdad) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Dima, don't focus on the risk of getting caught and so forth. In college, you will have many chances (and many others pushing you) to cut corners, cheat, and so forth. Whenever these temptations come up, as yourself how your parents (or brother, or whomever has lots of confidence in you) would react to a letter home detailing the shortcut you took, even if you were not directly penalized. I think you'll find that it's just not worth it.

Meanwhile, good luck getting into a U!

By Kode (Kode) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit

It's possible that they might call a counselor at your school to verify certain things. After all they do have the power to "verify validity."

But they'll probably only do that if it's really over the top; anyway, since you're an international applicant, they *might* not, but in the end it's you who decides whether you want to take the risk or not because the consequences won't be pretty.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:52 pm: Edit

As MassDad said, it is easy to spot discrepancies. Think about it. If you haven't seen all of your recommendations, you don't know if one of them says something to the effect of "great student, but uninvolved outside of class." So, if you then have a huge list of ECs, your integrity may be called into question.

I sat in on a mock admissions session for a university. One of the actual applications had a recommendation that said something to the effect of "This girl is amazingly honest. She got an A on a math test, realized that it was not the correct grade, brought it to my attention, and then took the B she actually got." The admissions officers were impressed by that, and included it in a list of "personal qualities" to consider about the applicant.

That's the positive side... you would hate to have the reverse effect work against you.

I think that some interviewers may be given a list of your extracurricular activities... so if they ask you about something that you did not do or did not do to the extent you said you did, you're caught there. Although you are international, some universities do have alumni networks to interview you... and some schools have admitted students programs. As MassDad said, they can revoke your acceptance if they find out you lied or omitted something later.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 04:13 pm: Edit

>>...it has a right not just to rescind an admission but to kick you out of school at any time before you graduate college.<<

Not only that, but schools reserve the right to rescind your degree even *after* you graduate if they find you lied on your app.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:29 am: Edit

I know that when it comes to checking out applicants, Harvard adcoms have been known to call guidance counselors and talk for 40 minutes in detail about the student. That's what happened in my area last year when Harvard checked out the student who eventually became the one EA admit from my area. The GC said that she typically gets those kind of calls from Harvard about applicants. Among the things that she was questioned about was information about the students' characters.

By Smorealum (Smorealum) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:54 am: Edit

Dima,

Any admissions officer worth his or her salt will develop a nose for fakers, whether they are people who lie about extracurriculars or people who pad the list with empty "accomplishments." The whole person comes through more clearly than you might think.

The issue isn't really risk of detection, though. It's a choice about the person you want to live with 24 hours a day. Do you want to pay the price that would go with knowing that you are secretly a phony?

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:44 am: Edit

Remember Blair Hornstine. Adcoms and GC sure did a good job checking on her.

By Royalchk (Royalchk) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Massdad, your practical advice is very good. Stop with the moralizing though. The bit about integrity is undefined and unreasonable. Smorealum too. I don't cheat about stuff like this, but that I don't is derived from my practical personal opinion; getting caught would outweigh the benefits and I don't feel a need to anyway. I don't have a rational basis for my ethical opinions, only my pragmatic ones, and neither does anyone else I've heard of. Until I get one, I won't push my moral views. In effect, you are proselytizing in a public forum and I find it silly and disgusting.

"Honesty is better." No, it isn't necessarily better until you say what value system produces your concept of "better". All honesty is at face value is much more csocially practical.

Honestly !

By Minibrit (Minibrit) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 09:42 pm: Edit

My guidance counselor knows absolutely nothing about me, and does not know who is in what club. I'm not going to lie, but i dont want them to call my school and then my counselor say im not in a club im actually in!!!

How would it work out if they call ur school and ur counselor barely knows anything about u?

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Royalchk,

Interesting, that you view any integrity decision as a risk reward tradeoff, that honesty is not positive good. Good luck then as you go forward. I'm sure you'll be treated accordingly. WE certainly have nothing further to discuss.

By Greenlight (Greenlight) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Do i have to send in all ecs certs to backup what i have listed in the appl.?

I got a trophy in a nation-wide comp. a few years ago but there was no certificate given to me. In this case, should i ask for it?
or list on the appl. without sending in a cert.?

By Greenlight (Greenlight) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit

hello?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 11:13 am: Edit

Most laundry lists of ECs and awards are not important so the adcoms do not verify the information. However, if there is even a sniff of doubt or suspicion that something does not add up, it can hurt your application.
There are certain awards and programs that are considered very important. The Intel competition, certain math competitions, sports designation (those are verified by the athletic departement) and they are easily verifiable. If you are caught lying, you are no longer in the running. A friend of mine who is Indian and a U Penn grad told me that with foreign students, the emphasis is really on the test scores, grades from the official transcript and a very few well known awards. All easily verifiable.
It is always possible to lie, cheat, steal and even murder. Yep, you can even get away with murder. It is no surprise to most adcoms that kids lie on the applications right down to whether they are even filling them out at all. My brother who worked for a firm that dealt with Chinese employees found that many of them spoke, understood,read, wrote very little English and yet supposedly scored hight on the TOEFL. Apparently some of these guys pay someone to take the test for them. So in addition to the TOEFl, he had a second, slightly easier test of English he would give them, and if they could not pass, he would not support their work visa, and back they would have to go. And I do not believe for an instant that the Chinese have the monopoly on having others take a test for them. When one of my older ones was going through the college process there were murmurs of someone getting caught having a cousin take SATs for him in a location where noone knew either person. Somehow, it was discovered because this is such a small world sometimes. I am sure there are many who do not get caught.
It is really a lifestyle and charactor choice. As I have said many times, it is not difficult to break the rules, and many times you may not get caught. I do know people though who have a not too savory reputation though they may not have been caught at doing anything illegal, and they just are not viewed as trustworthy. I would not want to be like them. But it is a personal choice. There is a "smell fraud" thread on this section where some Canadian kids are apparently padding their apps. I referred them to this thread.

By Wharton1986 (Wharton1986) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 12:25 pm: Edit

I dont see how anyone could take the Toefl for somebody else.
before you take the test a webcam sort of thing takes your picture and that same picture appears on your score report.so unless the guys are twins there no way u can get away with cheating on the toefl.
they also have cameras inside the testing area.

By Royalchk (Royalchk) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Massdad, I'm afraid that until you say what you mean by 'positive good' (unless you measure all good against the yardstick of honesty), I can't take your post seriously. But you're right; we shouldn't sully this discussion with our own ethical differences.

I say 'differences' rather than 'lack vs. presence' because I am no sociaopath; I just value truth and rationality above all else. That is why I think it is a bad idea to cheat on an app. Note that I didn't say this before though, because I don't push my own values. I can't rationally defend the valuing of truth, so I don't 'preach' it.

By Mstee (Mstee) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 05:19 pm: Edit

"I can't rationally defend the valuing of truth,"

Surely, you can think of some rational reason to value truth?

By Royalchk (Royalchk) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Yes, but it would depend on premises that Massdad would undoubtedly find questionable.

By Royalchk (Royalchk) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit

For an informal argument, I'd suggest the second post down at:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?id=7440&page=6

By Royalchk (Royalchk) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit

For an informal argument, I'd suggest the second post down at:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?id=7440&page=6

this was written by me though.

By Subparasian (Subparasian) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 07:52 pm: Edit

What can they do if they do find a discrepency in your application? Would they just reject you? Or does your name go on like a Blacklist and you are automatically rejected to every other school that you applied to?

By Reject (Reject) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 08:15 pm: Edit

listen people...

adcoms do not verify as much as you think. You actually think they have time to verify all their applicants? NO. And anyway, so what if they verify with your GC. I mean, you show your GC your resume before you hand in all your stuff in anyway, and if they see that it was there, then your GC is not going to say you didnt do it, unless it was a major school award or something. Be realistic. Kids get away with so much.

By Kitaab (Kitaab) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 08:30 pm: Edit

I'm sure kids get away with lying on their applications. That doesn't mean it isn't a contemptible, loathsome practice that makes me want to puke.

Sure, you can lie on your application if you like. If your life is so pathetic that you have to make up a new one to impress a group of strangers, there isn't much left to do but feel sorry for you. I just hope that anyone who does this feels sorrier for the honest, qualified applicants they're screwing over. Well, actually, I also hope they themselves get screwed by a particularly diligent admissions officer.

More than anything, I hope that people as smart as those who post here are above this sort of crap.

By Royalchk (Royalchk) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Intelligence (admittedly a hazy concept) and some standard social conception of morality are probably actually negatively correlated. So you may be hoping in vain, although from a practical standpoint 'smart' people may have other reasons for honesty, not least of which being the fact that they are probably less likely to need cheating on things that tend to select for intelligence as a major criterion anyway.

By Nyc127 (Nyc127) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 01:29 am: Edit

Dima I read some of your previous posts you seem to know alot about this college stuff, E-mail me at BKNY127@yahoo.com I have a few questions for you. Thanks.