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As a product of a foreign education system (England) I am somewhat at a loss when it comes to assisting my daughter in her college search. She's currently a sophomore, got 200 on the PSAT, scored at the 99% on her PLAN test, and is taking all the honor classes at her extremely large (900 students in her class) suburban high school, except for English (a strong aversion to the teacher in question). However despite a weighted GPA of 4.08, she is not in the top 10% of her class. Next year she'll go back to honors English, but she's refusing point blank to take AP History since she has been told by her current History teacher that the normal work load is 3 to 4 hours of homework most nights. If true, I can't say I blame her. My question is what should she do to maximise her chances at a college that would provide her with a good fit. She's interested in Psychology. What sort of EC and volunteer work should she be doing? I have to say that even with the size of this school, I don't think they're quite on the ball when it comes to college entrance - Yes a lot of kids go to 4 year colleges, however very few seem to get into top tier schools (not that I actually think that would necessarily be a good match for her,) and you have to wonder why.

Do you think taking a college level course in History at a local college would help, harm or have no effect.

As a follow up question, do you feel that most colleges recalculate the weighted GPA? Her GPA is pulled down by the fact that, even with diligent effort, she cannot seem to get better than a B in gym!

Unfortunately, my husband, who attended MIT, CMU, and Pit, appears to have NO recollection of how he got in!

Any advice/suggestions would be most welcome.

By Jennifer Prestia (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 08:06 am: Edit

And another question!

I note through browsing other posts that the general recommendation is to take as rigorous course load as the high school offers. My question is, what if the high school in question offers so many courses that (in theory) it would be possible to take 4 or 5 AP courses in a given year? At what point is a course load considered adequately rigorous, while still allowing the child enough time to be a child? With this particular child burn-out is a real possibility.

Jennifer

By Dadster on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 08:52 am: Edit

Hi, Jennifer, I'm sure that some of the professionals will chime in here, but I wouldn't obsess over this too much. From what you describe, I'd guess that 99+% of all colleges in the U.S. will accept your daughter if she continues her current levels of achievement, even with that dreadful B in gym! (Many colleges recompute GPA eliminating things like gym anyway.)

Since you are more interested in a college with a good fit than trying to get into the most prestigious college possible, you really don't have to worry about skipping an available AP course or two, etc. There are a dozen or two colleges in the country where details like this might (or might not) count - even at the most selective schools, though, skipping AP History isn't an automatic disqualification. Skipping all, or most, available AP classes WOULD raise some questions, of course. The bigger impact of skipping AP or honors classes might be on weighted GPA, where students getting As in weighted courses will rack up higher GPAs than are mathematically possible for your daughter. If she's hovering near the 10% mark, though, I wouldn't worry too much.

Extracurriculars and community service DO play a part in admissions - the general advice is to demonstrate a commitment to a smaller number of activities over a period of time. Someone who joins a bunch of clubs or other activities in an unfocused manner and accomplishes nothing of note won't impress anyone.

My own thoughts would be to encourage your daughter to engage in activities that she enjoys, and to worry less about building a resume - it's usually the activities for which the student has a passion that end up being a "hook" at admissions time, not the calculated resume-padders.

I'd also use this time to start looking at colleges to find the one that might be a good fit. Good luck, and keep us posted!

By Jennifer Prestia (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 09:59 am: Edit

Yes, there's no doubt that not taking every AP course offers affects the GPA. Mind you, even with weighting for honors and AP courses the majority of kids in her school who are in the top 10% vis-a-vis class ranking are kids who aren't taking the kind of class load that my daughter and her equally smart friends are. If fact an informal survey of those children who are in the gifted program reveals only one child (a gifted gymnast) who is also ranked in the top 80 of this class. This is a high school that calculates the GPA down to the 6th decimal place in order to rank kids! Unfortunately a B in a weighted class can't beat an A in an easy class.

In her junior year she'll be taking AP Calculus B/C, AP science (probably physics), honors german,latin,english, regular history,sociology and, of course, the dreaded gym! This will leave her with perhaps a one semester slot open for an art or anthropology course. If she took one of the AP courses instead of one of the honors she'd have to drop this latter class which is actually what she's looking forward to.

I absolutely am more concerned that she gets a good fit for college (I think that she might benefit from a big fish in a small pond experience after this enormous high school). She is currently receiving between 6 and 10 college brochures a day (one day record - 15), but its hard to know where to start. The one piece of information she has been given by guidance is that "you should have made up your mind about which college to attend by the end of junior year." I guess that means college visits this year. The whole thign is (of course) complicated by the fact that 9th and 10th grade are in one school, while 11th and 12th are in another, with a completely different set of guidance people etc.

Jennifer

By Dadster on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 10:20 am: Edit

>>The one piece of information she has been given by guidance is that "you should have made up your mind about which college to attend by the end of junior year."<<

Read our other threads about guidance counselors, Jennifer - the one piece of information sounds bogus to me! While some kids may have decided at this point, with many others its not practical. Kids continue to explore and visit colleges during the summer and fall after junior year. Some students may postpone visiting a distant reach school until they hear they are accepted, and clearly wouldn't be in a position to decide until then.

Of course the "final decision by junior year" presupposes that the student will be admitted. A student could decide on Harvard - until April of senior year, however, he/she won't have a clue as to his/her admission status, and hence had better have a series of desirable alternatives available.

In my own limited experience, many of the students who are capable of such an early decision are those who expect to attend an in-state school (where there is usually a big cost advantage) and arrive at the end of junior year with stats that assure them of admission. Students aiming at more selective schools have to keep an open mind much longer in the process.

By Dave Berry on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Jennifer, I'll second Dadster's always-on-the-mark advice and comments but will add that you should be careful in accepting at face value the advice coming from in-house high school counselors, especially those at a large school. Sure, they're overloaded and challenged to do many non-college-related tasks (behavior control, eating-disorder watch, etc.), but most just aren't up to speed on what it takes these days to find the best college match from that huge sea of colleges out there.

Many counselors default to a standard handful of their "favorite" colleges, many of which are of the "State U" variety or from a small group where they might have met an admissions director while junketing. I'm hoping that your daughter's counselor will take the time to know more about her than just the fact that her name ends in "I-L," or whatever classification system her school uses.

Your concern about the best-possible fit is the key to success. That's why your daughter should be trying to articulate her specific criteria for college selection as soon as possible. Once her criteria are set, it then becomes a matter of matching her overall profile against the hundreds of schools that will fit her needs.

Once she has some specific ideas about what she wants, stop back here and let us know what those aspects are. Between those of us who do this kind of thing for a living and our other astute posters (such as Dadster et al), I'm sure we'll be able to help your daughter narrow her search with (or without) the assistance of her school counselor. Best wishes for your family's college process, Jennifer.

By Dadster on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Oh, by the way, Jennifer, I forgot to add one key point about the "decide during junior year" advice. Many students have great experiences during their pre-senior summer - a college summer session for HS students, a great job, an extended trip, etc. that profoundly influences their college and/or career interests. Even the first part of senior year can be pivotal, as the student assumes leadership roles or activities begun earlier come to fruition. Use junior year for exploring and information gathering, and a narrowing of choices... but don't try to press for a premature decision!

By Jennifer Prestia (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Well her current feeling are that she would like a school in either a major metropolis, or a campus where they are really geared up to students. Definitely NOT suburban (we live in a suburb). Further, she (and we) are not at all conservative so a more radical environment than can be offered in a city such as ours (Pittsburgh,PA) would be preferrable. As I said she is interested in psychology, However, I wouldn't want her to make a decision for her life based on her current views. She's still very young.

Jennifer

By Jennifer Prestia (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Continued from above....

I think that if she had to write an essay at this time on "Her Proudest Moment" it would be about getting detention for standing up to a (somewhat reactionary) teacher in support of a fellow student in a "freedom of speech" issue. I'm not sure that wouldn't be a good idea, actually, since if a college didn't like that attitude they wouldn't like her! The other consideration that we need to take into account is that she almost certainly will want a graduate degree, so any school should have a good record in this department. Our only other requirement(well my requirement!) is that any school should be far enough away so that no laundry comes home! She has expressed a strong interest in colleges that offer a more "english" experience (small class sizes, more interaction with professors etc).

Jennifer

By California Mom (Calmom) on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 12:02 am: Edit

Jennifer,
On the "Proudest Moment" -- sounds like my son! He never would let any teacher's unjust remarks or decisions go unchallenged, no matter how trivial.
My son's attitude was the same as yours -- if the college didn't want a kid like him, he didn't want to go there. He had GREAT recommendations from his teachers, but he had to choose wisely (the teachers either loved him or hated him)

My main point in posting is to put my perspective on this bogus "decide by the end of junior year" advice. I'm sure they advise that because it makes the job of the counseling staff a lot easier. My son was still debating which schools to apply to in December of Senior year. My favorite moment was: "Hmm, mom, I've been thinking I'd like to take another look at Swarthmore, I've heard some good things about it." My response, "That's the one I've been telling you about where the deadline was yesterday."

Anyway, he's now in a school he loves that he had never heard of before October of Senior year. He didn't visit the college until after he was admitted. (Also, its the kind of school your daughter is looking for - his largest class has 15 students).

This approach isn't particularly good for parental peace of mind, but one thing does make a lot of sense: wait until after you have a good idea of what grades and stats are before narrowing down choices. So even though you can start reading and researching about colleges now, the narrowing down probably shouldn't begin until the second half of junior year. (In other words, visit, but do so casually, the way you might check out open homes in various neighborhoods before you are quite ready to buy a home, just to get a sense of what's out there.)

The problem with visiting colleges the summer after 10th grade is that you might end up checking out the wrong campuses -- a year later you and your daughter might have a whole different set you are interested in. Plus, most kids in 10th grade don't have a clue as to what they should be asking about or looking at when they visit, so they tag along with their parents and then everyone makes a snap judgment based on the scenery. So, in my mind, the only reason to visit colleges that early is to practice visiting colleges, so that everyone in the family will be better at it the following year.

Anyway, that's just my opinion as a parent who has been through the process with a procrastinating son.

One more note: my son is in college in New York; I'm on the West Coast. When he came home for winter break, the way he packed was by picking up his laundry bag and throwing it in the suitcase. I don't think there is such a thing as far enough away to keep the laundry from coming home.

By Roger (Roger) on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 08:14 am: Edit

Jennifer, I'm a CMU grad and former Pittsburgher. CMU has a strong psychology department, and with Dad being a legacy, your daughter is probably close to being a lock... Too bad it's so close. I agree on the laundry-distance thing, though in a more general sense. A key part of college, in my opinion, is learning to function on one's own. This means dealing with things like illness, auto breakdowns, screwups at the bank, etc. - things that would probably NOT be handled alone if Mom and Dad were a short distance away. My own daughter bypassed a great local school that, had it been a few hundred miles away, she might well have attended. Good luck, your daughter sounds like a neat kid!

By Jennifer Prestia (Jenniferpa) on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 09:53 am: Edit

Well, the laundry thing was intended as a metaphor - I completely agree with you about the functioning on ones own. In fact what she REALLY wants to do is go to university in England, but that, for an undergraduate degree, is a little too far away, even if we could swing it financially.

Calmoms comment about "tagging along and making a snap judgement based on the scenery" really struck a chord. I can just see this happening. I think we will just use this summer to check out in a very general sense any schools in any area we happen to be in.

On further consideration we (daughter, husband and I) have decided that rather than take any academic classes this summer, she should use the time to do those thing that she simply doesn't have time for during the school year, primarily volunteering and singing.

Jennifer

By Dadster on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Sounds like a good approach for the summer, Jennifer. Picking up another credit or two won't impress anyone very much. Certainly, the best "resume boosters" are those that occur spontaneously as a result of a kid doing something she enjoys, as opposed to some calculated effort to fill in another blank on the admissions forms.

By Jennifer Prestia on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Well, she's now decided that she'll take 3 SAT II's in May (writing, math 11c and chemistry), since this is the last opportunity she'll have to withhold the scores. Actually it's funny, I've been trying to get her to think about courses for junior and senior year, and she just wouldn't. Yesterday was "move-up day" (in our SD the kids move to a different school for 11/12 grade). She came back all fired up about which courses she could fit in, and full of questions like "should I take sociology in my junior or senior year". Like I know the answer to this! Oh well, at least she's taking an interest.

Jennifer

By D.T. on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 03:04 pm: Edit

The "the general recommendation...to take as rigorous course load as the high school offers" applies *only* to the most selective schools. These schools are *not* for everyone and if you suspect that burn-out is a real possibility, by all means factor this into her course selection and make those decisions accordingly.