|By Matlm (Matlm) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit|
I noticed the post by Blackminority1 ( i may have the screen name wrong). I decided to post my own topic because I really do not like posting in topics which have many responses.
I think that for starters, It is falacious to say either "affirmative action is right" or "affirmative action is wrong." To say something is either right or wrong is to assume that it is an absolute, and very few things in life are.
With that said statements like "diversity helps everyone" are spurious. It is a blind idealistic statement which cannot be said in absolute terms. To say diversity helps everyone, the word "help" must be defined properly.
Essentially human beings are both very much alike and very different. All are human beings, and all are individuals. One must ask themselves objectively "What role does skin color play in ones humanity AND ones individuality?"
Another question one should ask is "Are people seperated more by class or by race?" In a capitalist society the trend is that people are more seperated by class than by race.
"Are we being visited upon by the sins of our fathers, and should we pay for their sins?" Early Americans disrupted and disbanded a unique culture by bringing Africans over to the Americas. These people did not ask to come to America. In America they were made slaves, not by you, or even your grandparents, and even possibly not by anyone you are directly related to. However, a whole race of people were brought over to America with no intentions of them ever being citizens.
When the slaves were freed, a whole race of people were left stranded, forced to live for the first time as free people. However, the country did not protect these peoples freedoms until many years later with mandatory intergration.
The slaves and the slave masters have all died many years ago, yet we are still facing problems which can be directly attributed to slavery.
There is no simple solution to this problem. With vigilance and reflection we must address these problems not with short term solutions, but with solutions that ensure the quality of life for all people not just for today, but for well into the future.
I thank you greatly for taking the time to read this.
|By Spyaware (Spyaware) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Edit|
here is my thought on AA:
Life goes on; people should not be held responsible for what happened in the past; British and France invaded China and robbed many treasures, many of which are still in the british or american museums today, yet Chinese do not get any compensation or special treatment; in fact, Chinese are often discriminated against.
Blacks have been discriminated against, and they discriminate against others as well. Part of the cause of slavery should be attributed to the blacks who kidnapped their own people. So to all the blacks, stop being the victims and blaming your problem on society and everybody else. You are poor because you are lazy and incompetent.
Life is not fair. Try to equalize everything is exactly why communism failed to grasp reality. Yet America is founded on the principle of equality, which is quite ironic. Blacks want the advantage over others, and therefore they would make all kinds of craps to justify their selfish motivations. Try to take blacks out of the URM classification and let AA benefit only the native american, see what the blacks will say then.
You can not give one group advantage without putting another group at a disadvantage. Politicians want to attract vote and profit, they rarely care about justice. For all the naive people out there, please wake up!
Human evolves through natural selection, that's how we advance. If we make the less competent thrive, where will humanity lead to?
call me whatever you want. Here is my opinion. And I believe in the freedom of expression.
|By Alextmw (Alextmw) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit|
Where's that solution, Matlm?
|By Matlm (Matlm) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 11:16 pm: Edit|
I dont have the solution. Nor do I claim to.
|By Alextmw (Alextmw) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 11:31 pm: Edit|
Oh, I was mislead.
|By Crnchycereal (Crnchycereal) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 12:13 am: Edit|
Spyaware, you are poorly, POORLY misinformed.
"Blacks have been discriminated against, and they discriminate against others as well. Part of the cause of slavery should be attributed to the blacks who kidnapped their own people. So to all the blacks, stop being the victims and blaming your problem on society and everybody else. You are poor because you are lazy and incompetent. "
Obviously, you have no grasp of the intricacies of America's socio-political history or scene. You cannot claim one sweeping generalization as to why a certain group of people is typically marginalized and disadvantaged. Yes, some ARE poor because they are lazy and incompetent. But such individuals exist in every ethnic group.
The fact of the matter is that America has been deeply entrenched in a racist society for centuries. And even with all our talk of equality, blacks are still often discriminated against in society. And I'm not even talking about stereotypes or the media. I'm talking about basic job and education opportunities. Asians cannot claim such discrimination as we've enjoyed a substantial degree of economic success in America.
There are plenty of hard-working African Americans who just can't get a break. Why? Because the SYSTEM screws them. They have every right to blame society when it is that society which intrinsically shorthands them.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous to say that AA puts an undue disadvantage on other groups. In a sense, it's folly to say that AA is attempting to correct the mistakes of the past. But the effects of those mistakes are still very much present. And it is these problems that need to be addressed. AA tries to do this by giving minority groups an edge in a system that gives them no other advantage. And let's face it, American society has, does, and always will favor rich, white people. In the grand scheme of things, AA will not produce some significant negative impact on society as a whole.
I don't mean to say that AA is perfect; it's not. In fact, I'd rather see it be instituted based off of economic background instead of race. But alas, the two are so often intertwined that it's difficult to see the difference.
Lastly, I found your argument based off of the idea of "natural selection" particularly irrelevant. As if we're giving the blacks some sort of huge advantage and throwing off the system's "balance." The system is already skewed! AA in no way tips the scales in blacks' favor. It merely takes one step towards leveling the playing ground. Even WITH AA, blacks still face many difficulties in the job market and society. Eliminating it all together and assuming the most hard-working blacks will eventually make it is ridiculous. As long as so many racial barriers exist, blood and sweat will only take one so far. If social reform, even in the form of AA which might "hurt" whites, is necessary, then so be it.
|By Valpal (Valpal) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 04:52 pm: Edit|
"Human evolves through natural selection, that's how we advance. If we make the less competent thrive, where will humanity lead to?"
Careful, Spyaware, your membership in the Aryan Nation is showing...By the way, how's funding for the "Research Institute For Eugenics and Socially Responsible Genocide" going?
|By Neo (Neo) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 04:59 pm: Edit|
Neo | Not a neo-nazi...unlike the occasional misguided 'selection of the fittest' CCD poster...
|By Asndfkas (Asndfkas) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 05:19 pm: Edit|
1 "When the slaves were freed, a whole race of people were left stranded, forced to live for the first time as free people. However, the country did not protect these peoples freedoms until many years later with mandatory intergration.
The slaves and the slave masters have all died many years ago, yet we are still facing problems which can be directly attributed to slavery"
..you're taking this too far but connecting slavery with aa
2 matlm, i suggest taking your arguments to the schools, who actually have authority in this matter, rather than bitching about it here.
maybe they'll give you insight into thier reasoning, and i'm sure it won't include ridiculous arguments (such as in #1)
|By Matlm (Matlm) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 07:27 pm: Edit|
If there were never slavery there would never be affirmative action. It doesnt take a harvard scholar to figure that out. DUH!
No Slavery= No Blacks shipped to America = no need to free the slaves since there aren't any= no need to intergrate african americans any differently than any other minority.
The only african americans who would be in the united states would be those who chose to immagrat to the united states, which I don't see why they would want to do that when other people were coming to the united states. This is because African Culture was for the most part stable.
btw, what does it mean to "have authority in a matter." Just because you are considered an "expert" in your field by the public, does not make you an inherent expert at all. If one were inherently an expert than their expertise exists regardless of the position the public gives them. "authority" means nothing.
|By Matlm (Matlm) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 07:36 pm: Edit|
crynch ceral, although I agree with most of your post I take some issue with this statement
"There are plenty of hard-working African Americans who just can't get a break. Why? Because the SYSTEM screws them. They have every right to blame society when it is that society which intrinsically shorthands them"
Here are two arguements that one may put fourth at you.
In Blunt Terms, We live in a capitalist society. CEO's want people who are going to put money in their pockets. In the eyes of a CEO it doesn't matter what color you are as long as you put money in their pocket. The person who is able to put the most money in the pockets of the CEOs are the ones who mostly are highered. The desire for money transends racial boundries.
I agree with you one-hundred percent that in areas where finanical gain is not an obsessive goal there are Many african Americans who are screwed over. But it is not limited to African Americans. I believe that Unattractive people, Fat people, and people with disabilities are screwed over just as much. Do we extend affirmative action so that it includes people who are obesse?
This is just something to think about and it doesn't necessarilly reflect my opinion. I am just putting out potential arguements that someone would throw at you.
I think that if we Changed the goals of affirmative action just a little from "To ensure that racial minorites are given oppertunities," to "To ensure that racial Minorities are not unfairly denied oppetunities" there would be less tension about AA
|By Crnchycereal (Crnchycereal) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 07:57 pm: Edit|
I think you're being particularly naive in your assumption that a CEO will always hire the individuals who will make them the most money. Keep in mind that the CEO rarely if ever chooses his employees. That's left to the human resources department. Bias exists everywhere and there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't here after all. Now think about it this way: there are two qualified individuals. One is black, one is white. They are both amazing in every way, but the black guy just happens to edge the white guy out in a few departments. It's more likely than not that the white guy will still get the job. And don't tell me that you "agree" with me that African Americans are screwed over in areas outside of monetary gain. They're screwed over in many other ways. Hell, there are STILL thousands of blacks who are disenfranchised because the system has been rigged by those in power!
|By Webhappy2 (Webhappy2) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:55 pm: Edit|
I agree with spyaware's statement, although he made a couple comments that are offensive.
Basically, AA hinders the overall society by NOT using a merit-based system. AA is placing an artifical factor (simply what race you were born) above actual merit. This hinders society's progress.
Because we are the #1 country (almost all top universities are recognized to be in the US), we can afford to give out AA slots. But how about in 10 years? What happens when all the outstanding students realize that another college in some other country is actually attracting the best of the best?
My general opinion is that AA needs to be done, but NOT FOR LONG! We should set a time frame to phase it out. The supreme court suggested <20 years... that sounds reasonable to me.
"They are both amazing in every way, but the black guy just happens to edge the white guy out in a few departments. It's more likely than not that the white guy will still get the job."
This is where diversity/exposure to other culture/people can be helpful. Most likely you would choose the white guy because you have seen tons of white guys and you're more comfortable around them in general. The flipside of this argument, too: If you were a black CEO and a non-black candidate slightly was better comopared to a black candidate, you would probably pick the black candidate still!
|By Webhappy2 (Webhappy2) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:08 am: Edit|
And why I bring this up:
China is currently undergoing an extreme free-market system. Human rights and equality for everyone are pretty much being trampled. However, China currently has the fastest growing economy.
I'm Chinese, and I can tell you that Chinese is a *hard* language to learn! I don't want to learn it , so I hope that America's economy can remain #1.
Interestingly, this reminds me of America pre-1900's. Wasn't the Gilded Age essentially how China is now, where the uber-rich can obtain massive returns by doing whatever they want? Actually, there are probably more restrictions in place now than the Gilded Age (eg. technology makes price comparison easier, so it's harder to gouge customers as RR lines liked to do)
|By Lt_Clyde_Frog (Lt_Clyde_Frog) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 03:20 am: Edit|
To me affirmative action is wrong, i dont think that admissions should see your race or economic background when deciding on admitting you. As for society screwing over blacks, i dont think that is true either. There are plenty of black people who have worked hard and made something of themselves. I'm not saying that all other blacks are lazy, they just dont see what to do to be successful. That applies to all races. If you want to be successful then you will be.
|By Gracious95 (Gracious95) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:10 pm: Edit|
"i dont think that admissions should see your race or economic background when deciding on admitting you."
Why not? I see what you're thinking in terms of race, but economically, that would be unfair. Poor people are at a serious disadvantage. My parents cannot afford the best education available. Should I suffer because of that? Both of my parents couldn't attend college because they couldn't afford it. Now, they can only do so much, and earn so much money because there is a glass sealing to people who do not have a college degree. Again, should I suffer? To think that all schools are the same is very naive, and people with money do have an advantage. For example, SAT courses. They cost money, and much money, leaving that not an option for me. But, many other kids are privileged enough to be able to afford $900 for the classes, more than likely scoring higher than me. According to your logic, I should be put at a disadvantage because of that, and that is indeed wrong.
|By Gracious95 (Gracious95) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 04:30 pm: Edit|
"sealing"!? LoL, I was typing fast.
|By Webhappy2 (Webhappy2) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 06:17 pm: Edit|
First off, I've paid at most $40 bucks for books to study on my own for the SAT I. Almost everyone I know who scored 1600 didn't pay more than I did to buy prep books. You shouldn't and don't need to pay to study for the SAT I.
OTOH, you're probably still at a disadvantage though. Do you have access to read Time weekly? If you want to study word lists, go to dictionary.com and look at the word of the day (and look at the synonyms each day). The math is so basic that if you need help, you should be able to find someone to tutor you in math topics/problem-solving easily.
I think what we all agree that school-provided opportunities should be factored. Eg., if you have 5 AP's but another student attends a school where no AP's are offered at all, the college should know this.
|By Valpal (Valpal) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:45 am: Edit|
You don't even bother to hide your racism, do you Spyaware? The fact that you feel no shame expressing such blatant mind-flatulence shows how truly "unevolved" you are.
|By Rattle1 (Rattle1) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:55 pm: Edit|
Hardship is a synonym used for race in UC Berkely admissions.
These facts were also verified and substantiated by the College Board in numerous reports on their site.
1. Asians and whites from the lowest economic levels with family incomes of $20,000 per year or less OUTSCORED blacks on the SAT I from the highest economic levels with family incomes of $100,000 per year or more on the average.
2. Asians and whites from parents with only a high school diploma or less OUTSCORED blacks on the SAT I from parents with a college degree on the average.
3. Asians and whites from the lowest economic levels with family incomes of $20,000 per year and less, ACADEMICALLY OUTPERFORMED (higher GPAs, more academic awards, more difficult courses) blacks from the highest economic levels with family incomes of $100,000 or more on the average.
4. Asians and whites from parents with a high school diploma or less, ACADEMICALLY OUTPERFORMED (higher GPAs, more academic awards, more difficult courses) blacks from parents with a college degree or more, on the average.
When I first read these facts from this research in 1998, I was also in disbelief. The researchers did not atribute their findings to "differences in the races" or "one race being superior over another". They made points stating to the contrary. They also proposed solutions for the predicament of black underachievement, especially among the privileged blacks from families with yearly incomes of $100k or more and with parents with college degrees, who underperform when compared to whites and Asians from familiies with yearly incomes of $20k or less and parents with less than a high school diploma. These researchers asked why this was so and they concluded that the answer was not because of differences between the races or "racism". One of their major conclusions is that the answer to the question, Why?, is due to the differences in the culture of blacks. But even citing this conclusion will bring about charges of racism from the quilt-ridden white liberals and the black career civil rights activists-brokers. There are many other answers which these researchers put forth and you should read the book, THE BLACK-WHITE TEST SCORE GAP, by Christopher Jencks and Meridith Phillips, Editors, Brookings Institute Press, 1998. The text consists of the findings of twenty-two scholarly researchers' published works from the U.of Texas, Austin, U.of Virginia, U.of Michagin, Columbia, Duke, Northwestern, Harvard, Yale, U.of Delaware, UCLA, Stanford, RAND Corp., Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, Georgetown, U.of Wisconsin, Madison, the National Center for Research on Social Programs, and the National Center for Educational Statistics.
Why should economically advantaged blacks from parents with college degrees BE GIVEN EXTRA POINTS AS A HANDOUT OR "HANDICAP" over economically disadvantaged Asians and whites from parents with a high school diploma or less BASED SOLEY ON RACE??
There is no justification for the race preference for blacks, and especially when blacks from the upper economic classes benefit from race-based AA.
Over 70% of blacks in the Ivies and elite colleges are from the middle, upper-middle and upper economic classes, many of whom are admitted with lower academic standards than the rest of the class, i.e. SAT I scores from 100 to 300 points lower on average.
Why is it worth more to be Black or Latino and poor than it is to be Asian and poor overcoming the same obstacles with the same LIFE EXPERIENCE, each with the same objective stats or even with the Asian having higher objective stats (SAT scores and GPAs)?? The Asian is rejected and the Black or Latino is accepted. What's the difference?
|By May_1 (May_1) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit|
You're argument is just so completely...nasty and mean-spirited. I mean...it goes beyond the orgasm of vitriol that is to be expected from someone who is misinformed or hurt by a recent college rejection. It is crudely generalistic, insultingly simplistic, and wholly erroneous (jeez, I'm starting to sound like Jesse Jackson).
Anyways, for starters, you make blanket generalizations about an entire ethnic group based upon, at worst, entrenched stereotypes, and at best, anecdotal evidence. Which brings up my next point. How and why does the race of the girl sitting next to you matter? It could just likely have been a white person, or Latino, or "gasp" Asian. Moreover, how do the actions of this one girl relate to an entire ethnic group? The answer: they don't. I don't even need to address your ridiculouly prejudiced claims, as your argument has already been shown to be utterly invalid and ignorant.
EDIT: This is in response spyaware.
|By Neona (Neona) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 02:19 pm: Edit|
Wow. There's a lot of hatred here. How do you guys live with yourselves?
|By Webhappy2 (Webhappy2) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit|
Hey spyaware, careful buddy. I think everyone finds the comment you made regarding the black girl sitting next to you to be offensive...
|By Crnchycereal (Crnchycereal) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit|
Spyaware, once again, your lack of understanding and logic shines through.
"It is wrong for me to make generalizations about black, yet you make generalization that all blacks are socially deprived or screwed over by society, and then demand unfair advantage. HAHAHA, double standard "
I do not believe, at any point during this discussion, that anyone has said that ALL blacks are disadvantaged or screwed over. However, the fact remains that many ARE. And whether you want to admit it or not, even the more privileged blacks face certain social barriers despite their economic background. If anything, this generalization is based on truth: certain barriers exist that will affect most, if not all blacks. However, your generalization is completely unfounded. You argue that blacks are lazy or in some way instrinsicially inferior. Yet your "evidence" in this instance comes from either your own personal experience or the stereotypical images displayed in the media. And again, take note that when I said that thousands of blacks are still disenfranchised, that was a fact, not a generalization. For example, thousands of African Americans lack the right to vote in Florida because of a law that says "felons" can't vote. Read Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men." It's very clear that this law was instituted to prevent the predominantly liberal black voting block from choosing Gore over Bush. How? The majority of "felons" (in Florida, LITTERING is a felony) are BLACK in Florida! I'm sure it was just a coincidence here!
And I found THIS passage particularly laughable:
"society screwed blacks over, interesting. By unable to defend themselves during slavery, by their primitive technology, by their slow economic growth, by their tons of disease, by their lack of food, did not the blacks screwed themselves over? And when they come to America, they declare America society screwed them over? "
This is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. First of all, it sounds like you're BLAMING the blacks for becoming slaves. Obviously, you have no grasp of American HISTORY. Secondly, yes, the vestiges of slavery have left their mark on American society. It is an inherently racist system. Your pointless statements concerning slavery do not refute the fact that society has, does, and will continue to screw blacks over, whether socially, politically, or economically.
|By Obiwan (Obiwan) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit|
This thread started out within bounds but has degenerated and I'm closing it.
Note to Spyaware: dial back the attitude and what has been accurately called vitriol or you're gone. Actually, you'd be banned right now if I didn't have some other things to take care of.
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