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We've (or at least xiggi and blazer1) discussed affirmative action, asians and how they're overrepresented, underrepresented, mistreated, etc. The discussions are becoming pointless now - we all know how colleges stand.

Perhaps what should be discussed is what, as an Asian American Community, we should do. Most Asians agree that college admissions is unfair. Is there a plan? Is there a way to convince Harvard and the rest that their policies are not only unfair, but detrimental?

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Vote for civil rights initiatives (like the current Michigan Civil Rights Initiatives) that will probably be coming to your state soon.

There is no way to convince academia. They know the facts. They are simply choosing to sacrifice others in order to achieve a greater good.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:26 pm: Edit

The only way we can make them regret their ways is to outperform the people they give advantages to. We can start by being more prevalent in the political scene, educational scene, medical scene etc...

Although asians are a very powerful group. We tend to not get noticed because we don't really speak our minds enough. Not saying that we're shy or anything. It's just that asians don't seem to be really interested in politics, and thus we don't have many representatives at all. If we can get that representation, we will get equality.

AA is not the root of racism. It's how society works. Even if we get rid of AA, biases will still be there. It's society as a whole, and until we become more prominant in the political world, we won't get the recognition and understanding we deserve.

We have to show them that if they give us a spot in one of their classes. We will get them the publicity they need, the money they need, the diversity they need. We will become prominant scientists, writers, journalists, politicians, doctors etc... We will be nobel laureates, we will win pulitzers, we will be athletes.

Because right now, even though there are many asians in those fields, we aren't numerically strong enough to catch the attention of politicians and the media.

So for all you little kids out there. Work your asses off and stop complaining. This is the only way.

By Collegeguy (Collegeguy) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:26 pm: Edit

what is this greater good? The betterment of so-called URMs at the expense of Asian Americans?

By Collegeguy (Collegeguy) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Good call Tuannguyen. Asian american immigration has come in waves, and the children of the wave of talent that came from Taiwan/China and other parts of asia in the 70's an 80's are now rising up.

My guess is that in 10-20 years we will see MANY asians enter law and other previously "unasian" career paths. I'm guessing our political clout will increase as well.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Racial peace and harmony.

You make a good point, of course. How can there ever be racial harmony when government favors one race over another? This naturally leads to racial discord.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Let me ask you guys this. If you had the power, would you end AA? If so, are you ending it because it disadvantages your race? Or is there a broader reason?

By Obh100 (Obh100) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Ok I think the first step to ending this, is rather than look at people in terms of race, lets look at people in terms of individual people. Each individual in every right and situation, and thats what this world has failed to do because it seems so hard...

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:48 pm: Edit

There's no such thing as racial peace and harmony. When it does come, it will come as a surprise, because throughout history's past, there was no such thing. Even today, it's a never ending battle. That's why i said complaining won't really do much; we have to change the system from within. Slow and gradual. Of course, asians can do so much for other ethnics and races. We can't understand the weaknesses of the Hispanic, Black or Native American society, and thus we can't fix their problems for them. That's up to them. We can try to lend them a hand, but a hand can't replace their own two feet. BUT we first have to fight our battle before we worry about other people's fight. It is a collective fight, but the cultural separation is still too much, what would please one group won't necessarily be good for another.

This is a really pressing issue; racial equality will only be valid on paper if we don't get it by it's roots. And in our case, the roots are dug deeply into the foundation of our world culture.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:50 pm: Edit

"Ok I think the first step to ending this, is rather than look at people in terms of race, lets look at people in terms of individual people. Each individual in every right and situation, and thats what this world has failed to do because it seems so hard..."

Theoretically speaking that should work, but pratically speaking, how will it work? It's not just AA. It's the adcom's upbringing. Even if AA is abolished, when the adcom sees that your last name is Chan, their brain will refer back to biases taught to them as infants. It's a subconscious and conscious battle.

The ONLY way to do what you're talking about is assign everyone a number. But that takes away alot about ourselves.

By Obh100 (Obh100) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:34 am: Edit

Tuannguyen, its not going to be a slow change, because race has been singed into the brains of so many people. It must be a slow and steady change, people must judge based on a person's merits, not on the color of their skin, and thats not a message for affirmative action or college, but life itself...

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:39 am: Edit

Tuann, et al~

Do you know what made Bill Lann Lee famous ?

Hint: Affirmative Action and Civil Rights

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:42 am: Edit

Affirmative or Negative?

Asian Americans occupy a unique place in the affirmative action debate because, while they still benefit from race-conscious programs in some areas, they are also the only minority group to be called “victims of affirmative action,” when it comes to college admissions. KAs were asked: Where do you stand on affirmative action?

Reward vs. Education
Jhemon Lee, 33
Radiologist
Los Angeles, Calif.

Contrary to popular belief, school admission isn’t just meant to be a “reward” for a high GPA and SAT scores. The goal of higher education is to train the leaders and citizens of tomorrow. From that perspective, it behooves the college to train as diverse a pool of students as possible, so that these students can bring what they’ve learned back to a wider set of communities. Campus diversity is important, and while civil rights have improved since the 1960s, African Americans and other minorities still face significant subtle discrimination throughout life. That said, even well-intentioned policies can be poorly applied or over-applied, so it’s important for institutions to review and fine-tune their handling of affirmative action on a regular basis.


Peer Diversity
Kollin Min, 36
Attorney & Candidate for Seattle City Council
Seattle, Wash.
The most valuable lessons I learned in college and law school came not from my professors, but from the diversity of my fellow students. I benefited tremendously from learning about the life experiences of the black, Latino, Native American and other Asian American students in my classes. A diverse classroom ensures that all students learn about the significant role that race plays in shaping our experiences as Americans, and provides opportunities for everyone to succeed. And that’s why I support affirmative action - because it is the best way to ensure that educational settings reflect the diversity of American society.

More opinions at http://www.koreamjournal.com/StreetTalk.asp

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:44 am: Edit

Xiggi,

I don't know much about him... Is that a trick question?

Obh100,

I'm just saying, AA is not the root of all evil. Racism is everywhere, and to successfully strike it down, you have to find a better system which is PRATICAL, plus you basically have to reform our entire society, which is pretty hard. Even if AA i gone, biases and prejudices will still be there. The change will be slow and gradual. What i'm saying is that, instead of complaining, do something about it (especially since you seem so passionate about it). I personally think the pace of change is going well, Asians aren't being held back by any huge degree.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:01 am: Edit

Just because we can not achieve complete non-prejudice with the elimination of AA does not mean we should not take that significant step towards non-prejudice. Government and government funded entities should have no business in favoring one race over another.

We certainly didn't eliminate racism against blacks when we passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Indeed, whites still discriminated in selling homes in white neighborhoods to blacks. Did we give up and repeal the 1964 Civil Rights Act? No, we continued on and passed laws against discriminating on the basis of race in the selling of homes. Just as those laws are steps towards non-prejudice, so is the elimination of racial preferences in college admissions.

By Obh100 (Obh100) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:01 am: Edit

Xiggi

"train the leaders and citizens of tomorrow," since 60% of the leaders of tomorrow are white, I guess thats the way the system is designed to be? Pretty interesting point to consider, I'm not saying it was meant to be this way, but you never know for sure anyways...

Tuann

Well I think a more monetary/financial system is in order to replace the current race based admission. However, when it comes to racism in the world, I think the human mind essentially likes things to be easy, and for everyone to think of everyone in the world as a "whole society" is almost beyond the realm of human thought, kind of like why people resort to religion than actually deal with the reality of death. Just a metaphor, I'm not knacking religion or anything, but just as a contrast. I think the world is changing, but not fast enough, I mean look at whats happening with Arabs in airpots and stuff? I mean you violate one ethnic group, make up with it, and then use another, its a very vicious cycle.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:08 am: Edit

CovalentBond007,

I'm not saying that we shouldn't abolish AA. I'm saying that, we should find a better system FIRST. I'm not saying that AA is right either. I'm saying that there's much more out there holding asians back then just AA. We need not focus only on AA; we should focus on the whole. The abolishment of AA and the re-estating of a better system should be on your list, but so should so many other things. Some people think AA is the main thing that's holding asians back. I think it's general prejudice against Asians, and thus we should be focusing more on relinquishing this, all while making our trek towards a better system. Abolishing AA alone will do very little for equality, we have to combine it's abolishment with so many other things as well (like the re-estatement of a better system, and the destruction of negative stereotypes against asians as a whole). We don't want to leave the job undone, thinking it was finished do we? Like your example, the 1964 Civil Rights Act, it's not complete on it's own.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:23 am: Edit

I think I went off on a different tangent than what you are discussing. My main focus is not discrimination against Asians or viewing AA as a system that is holding Asians back. I am concerned with eliminating racial preferences and entitlements based on racial group membership. Everyone, Asians, blacks, whites, should be judged as an individual, not as a member of a racial group.

Can you describe this general prejudice against Asians? I am not familiar with what you are talking about. The last time I checked, Asians had the highest income of any racial group, whites included.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:32 am: Edit

Just watch TV...

Asians are seen as the math geeks etc... Thus when we apply to colleges, and we want to major in mathematics, the adcom think "it's just another one of those" etc... and a perfectly qualified applicant is rejected because the adcom thinks he's typical. This happens a lot. For example, Asians do have the highest average income. But not all asians. The Cambodians have only been on N. American soil for 30 years or so. Unlike the Koreans and Chinese, they came as refugees, and thus the general population had no understand of english, nor did they get any basic education (not even in their own language since most refugees are peasants). When politicans give aid to ethnic groups, they overlook groups like the Cambodians because they are classified as asians. When on the contrary, they are suffering as much as the blacks and hispanics, yet they don't get the aid the blacks and hispanics get. The Chinese were the top 0.01-0.02% educated in China before they came to america. They were the upperclass, atleast in education. The ones who came later on (non-railroad days) definitely had the money to get here, and trust me, there were no korean boat people (atleast not in mass numbers). This means they were affluent back home, welly educated and fully ambitious. They have an advantage. The Cambodians were simple peasants. Yet they are mistakenly taken as advantaged, just because their asian neighbors are. Because they are classified as asian, when politicians think of asian, they identify the cambodians with the chinese, which is not a good thing. Also, the Chinese have set themselves up in N. America relatively firmly, with Chinatowns etc... They can support eachother. Cambodians can only conform, because they have no cambodiantowns to support them, it gets hard to stick together and stay strong. It gets hard to stand up, because when you stand up, you stand up alone. Damnit, i don't want to explain anymore, i think you get the gist of it.

What may seem positive at first can be negative as well.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:41 am: Edit

That's what i meant. There are families who suffer within the asian community, but are overlooked because of the "model minority" stereotype. We are all hardworking and successful. This stereotype, in general, is a good stereotype to carry, but not always. There will be people who suffer because of it.

If stereotypes against asians can be eliminated, families with difficulties can be helped. Individual needs of each family can be carried out, no matter the race. AA overlooks asians like the Laotians and Cambodians, and make it harder for them to get in or give them no advantage when in fact they are just as disadvantaged as the blacks and hispanics (there are probably less cambodians or laotians in college than there are blacks and hispanics, probably even when using percentages). This is what i meant. AA is flawed in that way as well. But right now, we should worry more about what to replace it with.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:45 am: Edit

Here's a tip for watching TV.

Hint: Ching Ching Chong Chong. Buck Teeth. Squinty Eyes. Geeks. Small "pokers" (the thing between a man's legs, the offical name comes up as red dots, so whatever). No social life. Shy. Losers. Kung Fu. Abusive. Possessive. Don't contribute to society. Selfish and greedy. Buys everything that's on sale. Women are sluts and go for white men only. Men seen as boys who lack tostestoron. Women seen as sex toys ETC... ETC... ETC...

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 03:15 am: Edit

More stereotypes:

How to be a Perfect Chinese Parent (from the second generation perspective)

1. Be a little more lenient on the 7PM curfew.
2. Don't ask where the other point went when your child comes home with a 99 point grade on his/her report card.
3. Don't "ai-yoh" loudly at your kid's dress habits.
4. Don't blatantly hint about the merits of Hah-phoo (Harvard), Yale-uh (Yale), Stan-phoo (Stanford), and Emeh-I-Tee
(MIT).
5. Don't reveal all the intimate details of your kid's life to the entire Chinese community.
6. Don't ask your child, "What are you going to do with you life" if he/she majors in a non-science field.
7. Don't give your son a bowl haircut or your daughter two acres of bangs.
8. Don't try to set your kid up on a date in anticipation of their poor taste or inept social skills.
9. Incorporate other phrases besides "Did you study yet?" into your daily conversations with your children.
10. Don't ask all your kid's friends over the age of 21 if they have a boy/girlfriend yet.

How to Be a Perfect Chinese Kid (from the first generation perspective)

1. Score 1600 on the SAT.
2. Play the violin or piano on the level of a concert performer.
3. Apply to and be accepted by 27 colleges.
4. Have three hobbies: studying, studying, and studying.
5. Go to a prestigious Ivy League university and win enough scholarship to pay for it.
6. Love classical music and detest talking on the telephone.
7. Become a Westinghouse, Presidential, and eventually a Rhodes Scholar.
8. Aspire to be a brain surgeon.
9. Marry a Chinese-American doctor and have perfect, successful children.
10. Love to hear stories about your parents' childhood...especially the one about walking 7 miles to school without shoes.

Source: http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Kids/kids.html

By Y17k (Y17k) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 05:53 am: Edit

rofl

so true....

By Curiousone (Curiousone) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 06:14 am: Edit

Xiggi, that is HYSTERICAL, and of course, a lot of it is kinda true... ;)