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how come so many whites and asians are frightened that affirmative action isn't giving them an equal chance. when i visited colleges, all i saw were white and asian faces around campus. it seems to me that in most schools, only 8% of students are black, so it seems to me that if your race is a sure way in, y aren't there more blacks on campuses ( and i'm talking ivyleagues)? it's clear that not every one of them gets in. so whether u get in really depends on your ability, not your ethnicity. i'm international, so this really doesn't affect me but i was curious.

By Crnchycereal (Crnchycereal) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Sorry, but your argument based on your observation is completely flawed. The fact of the matter is, affirmative action works against whites and ESPECIALLY Asians because certain "quotas" have already been met and exceeded. Granted, Asians typically make a large portion of the strong applicants, but you also mentioned that only maybe 8% of students were black. Because there are such small numbers, colleges are more prone to accept URM's. Do not be so naive as to think that one's acceptance is totally determined by ability. There are far too many factors that make that statement false (i.e. URM status, legacies, athletes).

By Uncchlocalmayor (Uncchlocalmayor) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 08:11 pm: Edit

there are more white people living in America, would that explain why there are more white students in college?

By Rowan (Rowan) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 09:10 pm: Edit

One comment: quotas are illegal.

By Crnchycereal (Crnchycereal) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 09:18 pm: Edit

I said "quotas" because though I know they're illegal, it seems that colleges seem to keep within a certain range for different races. For example, if in a given year not as many strong URM's apply, colleges may "dip" into the proverbial pot and accept some lesser qualified URM's.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 11:50 pm: Edit

There is no question that the schools are using quotas as the basis of their affirmative action programs. Their denials are disingenuous, given that the percentages stay in a narrow fixed range year after year coupled with the fact that they admit a far higher percentage of minority applicants than non-minority applicants.

I don't have any big problem with lowering the standards to achieve diversity goals IF the colleges would just stand up and say, "look, we don't think SAT scores are a reliable indicator" so we are going to ignore them. But, what is killer is that, while lowering their requirement for some applicants, they monitor their median SAT numbers on a weekly basis during the admissions process and will never let the overall average decline (the all-important US NEWS ranking). So the net effect is that the non-quota applicants must be held to even higher standards as a balance. Combine this with the "quotas" for athletes, oboe players in the orchestra, and so on and so forth and basically there are no slots for good old-fashioned well-rounded students. They end up with a class full of "special interests", which runs counter to the whole point of a liberal arts education.

To top it off, I'm not sure they are really achieving real diversity. Real diversity would be kids in the top 1% of their graduating classes from ALL types of high schools: prep schools, affluent suburban magnet schools, not-so affluent suburban schools, rural schools, and inner-city minority high schools. Frankly, chasing after minority applicants from white prep schools isn't really diversity to anybody but an academic who considers diversity as meeting a quota number.

I think finishing number one in your class from your average black or Latino underfunded urban high school is a lot more impressive than finishing 25th in your class at a fancy prep school. Other than a handful of urban high schools, I don't think these colleges are really reaching out to your average schools in downtown Gary, Indiana or Birmingham, Al. -- something that might help them achieve true diversity.

In the book, The Gatekeepers, it was truly revolting the way the schools chased after a kid from Westlake-Harvard prep school in Bel Air because she checked the Latino/African American box. Her mother was an Oberlin educated caucasion. Her father was a Brazilian law school graduate with some distant African ancestory. This girl was a good candidate on her own merits. But, to think that she represents diversity in anything but a quota number is just plain silly. There were certainly no "cultural wrongs" in her background that needed "correcting" through affirmative action.

By Badsatscore (Badsatscore) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:15 am: Edit

interesteddad, you sound pretty uneducated but if you are ignorant, then at least you're interested which shows that you are willing to learn. 8% of students at harvard are black, that means that 92% are not. 60 mil black ppl reside in america, i think the unis have ample choice. a lot of black kids at my school are top of the class and have competitive test scores. lots of them didn't get in to about a quarter of the schools they applied to. so while i do believe that colleges are keen to maintain this percentage which is pretty low, what makes you think that one year urm's are not going to as qualified, afterall it would make sense then that whites would be in a lesser academically qualified pool aswell. the college admissions are unexpected for everyone. don't think that whites are missing out. they make up 60% of the campus and these are facts. colleges take the best wherever they can see it.

By Jimjunior (Jimjunior) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:22 pm: Edit

there are 36 million blacks, not 60 million. That is 13%

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Badsatscore:

You make my point every eloquently. I believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the colleges could easily find qualified minority applicants for true diverstity without the current quota-based affirmative action programs. Frankly, I don't understand why they feel the need for a quota system.

I do not believe at all that the top colleges are accepting unqualified applicants from any pool. Rather, it's just a case that they are holding applicants from some pools to even higher standards.

Read "The Gatekeepers" written by a New York Times reporter who (presumably!) spent eight months in the admissions office at Wesleyan while they selected a class. It's very informative and thought-provoking about the process.

BTW, your numbers are a little off for Harvard's most recent freshman class. For actual enrollments in the undergrad class of 2006, the percentages were:

6.8% African American
7.2% Hispanic
17.4% Asian Amerian
1.4% Other (inc. Native American)

32.8% Total "Americans of color"

This is a bit higher than Williams (29% for the class of 2007) and considerably below Swarthmore (39% for the class of 2006).

As far as using different standards:

36% of the American "minority" applicants are enrolled in Williams' Class of 2007. 19% of the American caucasian/unspecified applicants are enrolled in the Williams Class of 2007. For obvious reasons, no university releases their percentage for actual acceptances/rejections.

As far as applications, 16% of Williams applications came from "Americans of Color" including Asian Americans and they make up 29% of the enrolled class.

BTW, I don't really like to use Harvard as a representative of elite colleges for admissions statistics. Because the brand name attracts so many applicants (even some from people who probably don't even know where it is), their acceptance rate is atypical. I think that more representative numbers on admissions odds would come from the schools with acceptance rates in the 20% to 30% range.

By Unhappiness (Unhappiness) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 03:54 pm: Edit

i completely agree with badsatscore. ok, he/she was a little off on the numbers but it's pretty petty to reamark on that especially as there was practically no difference. all i know is that a black girl at my high school got into yale and with that admission came the sneers from good white students (though they weren't exceptional), who thought that the only reason she got in was her race. she had 1590 on sats, rank 1st and an amazing essay. i think that a lot of whites who don't get in are stifled because they come from depressive suburbia and don't have much in their life that makes them stand out.

By Sheeprun (Sheeprun) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Badsatscore: Please back way off from the "uneducated" and "ignorant" comments. Your arguments are plenty strong enough without resorting to personal attacks.

>moderator<

By Jpcornell07 (Jpcornell07) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

For all of you against AA. Let's take a school like Harvard, which accepted only 9.8% of all the applicants. And let's say that they were all white and asians (of course we know they were not) but assume that for the moment. For the 91.2% who did not get in, what would you blame it on? AA still? My point is that you'll always find something to blame.