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Hello. First of all, I don't ask you to agree with me, but I would like everyone to just open their eyes without any bias and see where Im coming from.

First of all, Im asian, and thus, if anything, AA makes it worse for me. Nonetheless, I think AA is indeed necessary.

AA means racially diverse students will be accepted with less competitions. But what does "racially diverse" mean? Could it be only the color of your skin or more profound differences?

You will not be so blunt to argue that in some communities, most in fact, there are black segregated schools. Not lawfully, but "ghetto" schools, where the majority are black students, do exist. Also, because the less unfortunate communities are usually associated with less fortunate people, such as blacks and hispanics, who suffer huge economic disadvantanges, naturally recieve worse education. In fact, their school life and grades will not compare with any other students from rich communities. However, the students may stil have the incentives; the burning passion to succeed in whatever they pursue. THATS what AA is about. It is to give a fair look at everybody so everyone recieves a fair chance.

Now, I want to correct a common misconception. If you live in a rich community where schooling is excellent and there are no racial segregations, even if you are black or hispanic attending that school, won't help as you much as you think. You have been given a good opportunity to succeed in the same environment as others, thus, you are expected to compete with the same pool. However, AA usually targes the minorities who are NOT able to compete in the same pool. That, is why AA is a beautiful thing.

Look at it this way. If you are rejected from a school and another less competitive minority gets in, you cannot blame AA. You have failed in your own pool of competitors, and to say that you would have done better compared to the disadvantaged students are humiliating, if not utter stupidity.

Thanks for listening.

By Collegeguy (Collegeguy) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 02:46 pm: Edit

...

i didn't understand some of your arguments...but ok wtv.

By Benny (Benny) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Debating affirmative action is like debating abortion. You're not going to cause anybody to switch sides in the abortion debate and there's never going to be agreement on abortion in this country.

If I jump into these AA debates its only because I like to argue, and not because I expect to convert anybody.

By Yourlocalmayor (Yourlocalmayor) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:24 pm: Edit

oh, about abortion...I read an article in Scientific American (Nov. 2002, p. 99) about the fact that fetuses yawn...just a thought.

about affirmative action, well, blah. i worked hard and finally got accepted to my first choice school via transfer. white cracka for life.

UNC c/o 2006

By Midnightdanzer (Midnightdanzer) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:50 pm: Edit

i'm a strong believer in INDIVIDUALISM, and that belief helps shape my opinions on both Affirmative Action and Abortion

Affirmative action: people should be looked at as INDIVIDUALS, not as "someone with a race" ...this is not to devalue culture whatnot...but in life one should be judged by the content of their character and not by the color of the skin (as MLK Jr. so well said)

Abortion: this isn't a political discussion board..but i recommend the book: THE PRO LIFE ANSWERS TO PRO CHOICE QUESTIONS.. even if you don't change your mind on how you feel about abortion... you will have new respect for the "fetus" as an individual soul that can't be replaced

basically each issue has it's deep, difficult arguments etc...but when it all boils down to it, your robbing someone of a college education or a job becuase he/she dind't have the right skin color or your robbing someone of a life, and robbing the world of a person who has potential to do something great.

plus why should *individuals* be labeled by their race, when this country is supposed to value equality, i practially think it's pointless to ask what your race is on a college application, if your asking someone who was born and raised in this country his/her entire life

and on abortion:

The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has tuberculosis (TB). They have had four children. The first is blind, the second did not survive infancy, the third is deaf, and the fourth has TB. The mother finds she's pregnant again. Given the extreme situation, would you consider recommending an abortion?

If YES...
Congratulations, you have just killed Ludwig Van Beethoven.

By Midnightdanzer (Midnightdanzer) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:51 pm: Edit

and i respect anyone who has a different opinion.

By Lethalfang (Lethalfang) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:55 pm: Edit

LOL, and the 5th is deaf too!

By Moreau1985 (Moreau1985) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Abortion and Education go hand in hand with each other (trust me, i'm not joking). If a woman wants an abortion, it may be best for the child, based on the living conditions. Hypothetically speaking, lets place this baby in the ghetto. This ghetto born baby might be born into a bad economic situation and will not recieve proper education. Therefore, this baby will be destined for failure. Thusly, abortion should be legalized, it's not like the fetus has a say in anything. If I knew that "hypothetical" life that was ahead of me, i'd probably tell the doctor, "just kill me now!".

On a sidenote: I'm 1/16th spanish, am I allowed to mark the bubble with hispanic on it? I'll just need to change my last name to Primo and my first to Carlos. Ladies and Gentleman, meet Carlos Primo, class of 2007 Dartmouth (i love AA).

By Spunkymunky (Spunkymunky) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 06:51 pm: Edit

I defintitely agree with you Chemos. I wrote a 17 page research paper in defense of affirmative action and I can relate to your points.

I'm an Asian Indian, so I'm in the same boat as you as an ORM. Nonetheless, you have to take a relativistic approach to the problem. Race is never the end all be all criterion. In the words of Alexander Astin, a former UCLA adcom member, "There's always a consideration of merit given." (Notice UCLA, they rescinded AA in 1995). I understand that some whites and Asians feel bad, but using URMs as scapegoats is wrong.

I know that AA is not infallible, but are there any social policies that are perfect (eg.-welfare)? That doesn't mean you get rid of it.
Ideally, we should look at each other as individuals, but that probably won't happen because race is an important part of a person's identity, especially to members of minorities.

Anyways...that's my opinion on AA. I don't mind any anti AA opinions at all except if they are from George W. Bush (who got into Yale with a C average).

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 07:22 pm: Edit

"Also, because the less unfortunate communities are usually associated with less fortunate people, such as blacks and hispanics, who suffer huge economic disadvantanges, naturally recieve worse education. In fact, their school life and grades will not compare with any other students from rich communities. However, the students may stil have the incentives; the burning passion to succeed in whatever they pursue. THATS what AA is about. It is to give a fair look at everybody so everyone recieves a fair chance.
"
Why not use affirmative action to help the poor rather than minorities then? The number of poor minorities in the country is roughly equal to the number of poor whites. Why are the minorities in bad schools more important than the whites in bad schools?


"However, AA usually targes the minorities who are NOT able to compete in the same pool. "
not really

"Look at it this way. If you are rejected from a school and another less competitive minority gets in, you cannot blame AA. You have failed in your own pool of competitors, and to say that you would have done better compared to the disadvantaged students are humiliating, if not utter stupidity. "
Rich minority kids have an advantage over a white redneck's kids not only in the K-12 school system but also in admissions. Is that fair?

By Koori (Koori) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 07:44 pm: Edit

George Bush--- got into Yale with a C average and sat scores in the early 600's as well. and this same guy, who ONLY got in b/c of his legacy, is against AA. yeah, isn't it ironic. ugh!

By Moreau1985 (Moreau1985) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Yeah i'm against AA, my SAT scores are in the low 600's. I know i'm not going to Yale, but persay, I was a "legacy" i'd still be against AA. Where is the irony in that?

By Chemos (Chemos) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:17 pm: Edit

chim chim, colleges DO help economcailly disadvantged kids as well. Although not AA, they still benefit tremendously in the admissions process.

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Then why do they need more aid for minorities only? Why not switch all the minority-only aid to aid that goes to economically disadvantaged kids. That way you're helping people based on a disadvantage, not the color of the skin. Unless you contend that race itself is a disadvantage beyond the higher level of poverty in minorities...

By Benny (Benny) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:40 pm: Edit

What I want to know is where were all you people who are so vocal in advocating race blindness and judging people by the content of their character 50 years ago? Yes I know you weren't born yet, but are your values really so different than your parents? I think not. It's just too convenient that all the racism in this country just evaporated in one generation and that all the conservatives are now anti-discrimination. I think its only because you perceive yourselves as the victims of AA.

By Chiang (Chiang) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:21 am: Edit

People are not disadvantaged due to race. They are disadvantaged due to wealth. AA should be based on socioeconomic background, not race.

If you strive for racial diversity, the current AA doesn't do the trick. Lumping all Asians together is racism.

The poverty rates of Laotians, Hmongs, Cambodians, and Vietnamese are 67.2%, 65.5%, 46.9%, and 33.5% respectively. Most these groups arrived illiterate and destitute as refugees of war. They are underrepresented on college campuses, yet are not given AA because the system lumps them with Chinese/Japanese/Koreans who have a very different culture and background than them.

Why should rich blacks benefit over poor whites and poor asians? You make no sense.

To those who balk about legacy admissions--two wrongs never make a right.

By Spunkymunky (Spunkymunky) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit

I see your points Chiang, but those conservative politicians who are against AA say nothing about legacy admissions. They deliberately do that because they have benefitted so much from the legacy preference (eg.-George "Dubya" Bush) to get into HYPS. (I know there are exceptions like Bill Clinton, who was a Rhodes Scholar)

Plus, the legacy weight doesn't really matter with unselective colleges like State U.; it has real relevance at the HYPS level. For example, Brown's regular admittance rate is 17%, while the legacy rate hovers around 34%.

There are real inconsisitencies with the conservative philosophy on AA, which must be corrected before I even listen to Bush, Cheney, or that administration when they attack AA.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 05:58 pm: Edit

geez, i'm a black person, and had much better SAT scores than Mr. Bush, and excellent grades and... and.... and i wasn't accepted to ANY exclusive private school; shouldn't i have gotten in on affirmative action??? i thought all minorities would be accepted under affirmative action! i guess i've misunderstood something in the anti-affirmative action posts on this forum...

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Andromeda, what schools did you apply to?

I applied to UMich, UPENN, Northwestern, and George Wsahington. I was accepted to all except Penn (sighs). I'm going to Northwestern. I'm black.

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 07:17 pm: Edit

"People are not disadvantaged due to race".
"Unless you contend that race itself is a disadvantage beyond the higher level of poverty in minorities..."
Umm...what planet do you live on? Please! You are free to express your opinions about AA, but don't insult me by pretending that racism doesn't exist!Not only have I been directly affected by racism (apparently I sound "white" on the phone and people feel free to say things they wouldn't if they really knew who was on the other end), but I have witnessed in the workplace blacks,asians and hispanics being ridiculed by their co-workers. I too thought we were making progress in race issues-until I saw a 30 year old man imitating the accent of a young intern.
Just because there is no "affirmative action" banner disclosing this practice, selective colleges that actually read applications give preference to the economically disadvantaged.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

One should examine the crux of the status quo of socioeconomics before asserting arguments against AA. We can contend all intricacies, technicalities and all else later, but the brunt of it all....racism.....

By Chemos (Chemos) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:40 pm: Edit

I dont think you understand a lot of factors that determine AA. Your race determines your culture.

It is probably true that in most black family, life is much harder, just because of their race. their social life is probably different too, which could have affected their education. A lot of factors play into it. You should not discorage AA just because you dont think its fair.

Look at it this way. If you get rejected, something is wrong with you. No1 took your spot because of AA or whatever, YOU were rejected because YOU were unqualified. Some other not-AA person probably got in, who IS qualified. So stop bitching about AA. Life goes on.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:49 pm: Edit

....okay...

By Young7786 (Young7786) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:08 pm: Edit

I dont really agee with AA. Especially because the word "minority" only encompasses Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans. Technically, asians are minorities too right? I guess they mean non-intellectual minorities or something.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 02:50 am: Edit

I was accepted to U. Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech & Holy Cross, and i was happy with my choices...

the point i wanted to make is that affirmative action is NOT accepting so-called "minorities" just because they are viewed as minorities through the eyes of society, regardless of qualifications; it appears many non-minorities have apparently suffered memory lapses and forgotten that, not long ago in this country, "separate but equal" doctrine as applied to the races was the official law of the land in the educational arena. my father couldn't even attend medical school in Texas close to his home, simply because he was BLACK- the nearest medical school that would accept black students was thousands of miles away, in another state. even after colleges and universities had officially been integrated, both he and my mother were denied entry to U. Texas' graduate school on the basis that, since their proposed majors were offered at the local black college, they would have to go there to further their studies. i'm certainly no expert on history, but i can't seem to recall a period in our nation's history in which whites or other "non-minorities" (perhaps with the exception of women)were ever systematically denied access to education. so as "unfair" and as reverse discriminatory as affirmative action may be to you guys, it is still a necessary evil, because the playing field is far from being level. besides, look at it this way- if minorities are getting 10% of the admission slots and 10% of the coveted jobs on the job market just for being minorities, then you guys are still getting the other 90% of these positions just for being white! fair enough?

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 12:45 pm: Edit

I agree Andromeda, the same goes for immigrants. (my case)

"non-intellectual minorities" ???

those are some pretty choice words.

By Jimjunior (Jimjunior) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Chemos first argument is saying that AA should have nothing to do with race, just economic status and the school that you go to. It seems to me that he/she is therefor against AA and for something different

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 02:41 am: Edit

while i can't agree that affirmative action should be abolished, i will say that i think it's absurd to even have to have this sort of practice as a deliberate means of integrating society, since we can't seem to do it on our own, naturally, without certain rules to abide by. if the current administration was really serious about improving the state of education, it would eliminate all barriers which hinder access to higher education- financial barriers included. this would mean providing adequate funding for ALL public schools, so that they all would have the same amount of resources, the same quality of teachers, and the same quality of education, whether in the heart of Detroit's inner city, or somewhere in the plush suburbs of Dallas' Highland Park. instead, we are offered a school voucher system. if you were good enough to graduate from high school, then you should be allowed to enroll in the public university of your choice- it wouldn't matter if all public schools had the same level of academics. i know that this works, because this is exactly what happens in the German system- anyone who finishes high school (the German "Gymnasium") can go to a public university, free of charge, no standardized tests involved- just let them know you're coming, and have proof of your high school diploma with you. they don't give a hoot what you look like, and they don't care if you're asian, irish-german, french-american, hispanic, 3 quarters swedish, 7 eights black, or 9 twentieths purple, blue, green or red- if you've graduated high school, then you can go to university- and that is the only requirement. there are only restrictions if a certain program is too overcrowded. in this case, either a cutoff gpa is established to determine who will be admitted, or you're put on a waiting list and sent to the first university that has a vacancy. the universities are very intense and very demanding, and the level of quality is pretty much the same at all of them. no one has ever heard of affirmative action here, because there really is no need for it. so i think that, when we finally reach that point here in the states, affirmative action should indeed be abolished. unfortunately, we are far from it- education is still very much a class issue in this country.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 03:58 am: Edit

I think most of America's crappier schools really should be reformed with better teachers and better funding (if you can afford 80+ billion on a war, you should beable to do this). A substitute for my communications class last week just came back from Virginia a few weeks back. She told me horror stories of the lack of attention the kids are getting from their schools just because people think they are "hopeless". People should be trying to fix the problem from the kindergarden level to the college level. Instead of just trying to get people into college, they should be giving them enough knowledge early on to stay in school and get into college and actually stay in college.

Seriously, she said 125 of her students were failing when she first came, and she said she confronted the principal of the school who just said "they 'will' pass, and you will do everything that has to be done", she said she told the principal to change the marks if he wanted, because she doesn't want to be the one who will be messing with the marks. Of course she taught them according to the Canadian way (according to what she was taught in college/university; in Canada you have to have a degree in education and a degree in the field you want to teach in to actually beable to teach, because there is actually an exess # of teachers in Canada and you're competing against people with 6 years or so of higher education above HS for jobs... I believe in some places in America all you need is a HS diploma to teach, which really scares me) and she managed to teach a lot of the kids some stuff which got half the students, who were failing, to pass, legitly, since on paper they all passed, but in actuality only half of them should have passed (the ones who did pass, did not pass by much she said, but better then before, there's so much you can do with people who don't have the very basics of all knowledge, the rest of the kids were rotten to the core, it would have helped if attention was given to them a lot earlier).

This is a personal: Ideas like SELF-ESTEEM education should be abolished. It's crap. You either get the A or you don't. You shouldn't be praising a student for getting a D just to get their "self-esteem" up. They'll just continue doing what they're doing, thinking they're doing enough.

I think America should be doing more... It'll quicken things up and the minorities will actually catch up. Even though AA puts a lot of minorities in College, a lot drop out because they don't have the necessary studying skills. Work should be done in HS, and Jr. High as well as Elementary.

Raising the basic standards for teachers will raise the educational standards of minorities. If the teachers know how to teach, it would REALLY help.

Of course that's just my 2 cents (which apparently isn't worth much these days, you can tell i'm a bit cranky, for one i've been working for 12 hours with very little breaks on a SATURDAY)

It's two o'clock in the morning where i live, and i'm really tired, so everything i say right now, i might regret... so whatever... take it easy on me if you disagree.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 08:34 am: Edit

VERY good point- this is EXACTLY what i'm getting at. if we can spend billions on a war, we certainly have tons of bucks to pump into educational reform. in fact, reforming the educational system is probably a very economical alternative to funding senseless wars. but alas- it is the voucher system which shall be responsible for improving the educational prowess of our schools. i hope no one really believes vouchers are a good idea. straighten up those substandard schools, get them all up to par, and i assure you there will be significant improvements for the better. however, when you have kids coming from run down, poor school districts that do not have adequate materials, teachers, or resources, it only stands to reason that these kids will not be able to match up with others from substantially "richer" schools- they are doomed to fail, and not because they are minorities, but because they have received inadequate schooling, if any at all.

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:14 am: Edit

I don't believe in AA simply because I think you should get in because of merit, not who you are.
Say you need brain surgery, who whould you choose, the best doctor on earth or someone who struggled through medical school because he got in by AA.

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:22 am: Edit

andromeda65: Do you really think that Bush got in because of his grades?!? He's last name is BUSH.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:37 am: Edit

There is little for me to add, so to avoid talking in circles, I support AA and believe the bush admin should do more to ensure more opportunity to all...

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Bush made it to Yale on two other types of affirmative action which are currently not being sought out for elimination: name-based (legacy) and wealth-based (coming from a wealthy family that is a potentially lucrative donor to the school)...i don't know what kind of grades he had, but his being admitted there probably didn't have a whole lot to do with his academic performance. another sure way to get into almost any school is by way of athletic affirmative action- if you are a superb athlete, you will have excellent chances of going just about anywhere you want to. i know schools like Stanford, Berkeley and Michigan, Duke or Georgetown for example, will see to it that you are admitted if you are a stunning varsity athlete- all you have to do is be able to play ball.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 12:38 pm: Edit

oh, by the way- rest assured there are no brain surgeons anywhere on this earth who "struggled" through med school- if they made it that far, they are more than qualified to perform their jobs, regardless of whether or not they benefitted from affirmative action. if they had to "struggle", the process of medical school would eliminate them long before reaching the point of training to become brain surgeons...

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Thank you for finally akwnowledging the different types of AA. and thank those who have an open mind about it.

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 07:49 pm: Edit

The point is, there are differences between brain surgeons. If every doctor was skilled, there won't be any malpractice. There are great ones and there are those that are not so talented.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 10:09 pm: Edit

But all that isn't attributed to AA.

By May_1 (May_1) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit

I don't think one who can't possibly comprehend the difficulty of neurosurgery and its inherent dangers and unknowns should be making comments about what makes a good neurosurgeon and who is a bad one. They are all highly trained specialists that do their jobs well, but sometimes run into complications that the patient's family often attributes to the doctor.

And, as primadonna said, none of it can be attributed to AA.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

gosh chrisy, sounds like you're attributing incompetency in the medical profession to those who were benefactors of affirmative action! primadonna is certainly right- that has nothing to do with AA. seems as though there is a common misconception about what affirmative action sets out to accomplish, and how it works. AA is NOT going up to the first black or hispanic bum you see panhandling outside the local shopping mall, and saying, "hey bro, you look like you could use a job- how would you like to start as CEO of this company beginning tomorrow?", or "hey my man, you look down and out- we are in desperate need of minorities in our medical school at Stanford- why don't you come on down and fill out an application? we'll get you in, and you don't need any kind of education or anything!"
this is definitely NOT how AA functions!!! AA is all about simply giving consideration to QUALIFIED minorities, because more times than not, they are inadvertently overlooked in all types of hiring and admissions processes. say what you will, but race is still the name of the game here in the states, even as we march on into the 21st century. i experienced it during fraternity rush, as an example: i made it to bid day twice, only to be denied a bid both times. reason: according to those whose votes were enough to keep me out, it simply wasn't time to "allow blacks into this organisation"- that's what they told me when i kept badgering them for an explanation of why i made it all the way to bid day 2 times in a row without coming out with a bid to pledge. now, fraternities are of course private organisations, and they can really do whatever they please- nevertheless, it's a good example of how many people still think and reason in current day america, and this is the reason AA is very much needed. perhaps the best example of this mentality to date is senator Trent Lott- all he did was to reveal his true feelings, even if he didn't really intend to. and if you think this is just one single case, you are living in a world of denial- there are all kinds of Trent Lotts in personnel departments making important hiring decisions, and they are also on committees which decide who will be accepted to college or law school or grad school, and who will not be accepted.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:46 am: Edit

oh, i forgot to mention- if you guys want to see an absolutely hysterical example of how AA is often misconceived of being implemented, check out "Trading Places" with Dan Akroyd and Eddie Murphy- this is a guaranteed laugh, and, at the same time, a very bad and inaccurate example of what AA accomplishes.

By Chiangkaishrek (Chiangkaishrek) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 02:00 am: Edit

Folks, I know that many...if not all the Ivy League institutes don't really care about Affirmative Action.

I know this because a Harvard admissions officer as well as my interviewer told me they only look at your academic qualification. So you could be hispanic or black, have an 800 on your SAT and 2.5 GPA...and Harvard or any other Ivy League institute won't give a damn.

Even the UC's (Univ. of California) systems got rid of their affirmative action policies.

I understand why colleges don't really want affirmative action. If I were to be the president of a college, I wouldn't want to see kids based on color, dropping out and wasting their time in college. I would like to admit students who can excel in college, and graduate on time. Isn't this what education is all about?

Plus, why are you folks only focusing on Asian-Americans. What about blacks and hispanics as minorities. I think affirmative action will NOT help Asians because there are many in colleges across the nation.

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:53 am: Edit

andromeda: "that has nothing to do with AA"? I'm not saying it is completely caused by AA, but partially.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Alas, some reasoning. I support Affirmative Action because it is intended to support qualified minorities, that's what it all comes down to. Whether or not some people can actually comprehend that such people in reality exist, well, that's up to them. Thanks for your extensive clarification Andromeda!

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

just how many malpractice suits do you know of that have involved minorities whom you would suspect of having gotten into med school because of AA ??? i don't care to what extent you belong to a minority group- if you're not qualified to be a brain surgeon or any other type of highly trained physician, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN- you'll never make it that far. as i mentioned in one of my earlier posts- i had good SAT scores (750 v, 750 q), a 3.97 gpa, i played varsity basketball and tennis and taught myself german just for the hell of it and spent a year in Sapporo, Japan as an exchange student- Harvard, Princeton, Brown and Penn ALL turned me down; so if AA really worked the way you think it does, i should've been accepted to all of those schools, even if i had made a 700 combined score on my SAT's and had a 2.6 gpa; but i was turned down just as were a whole bunch of other students, both minorites and non-minorities...

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 07:27 am: Edit

I am going to ask all of you to please read about Dr. Drew Carson pediatric neurosurgeon at JHU, also Dr.Daniel P. Hale, Dr. Patricia E. Barth, Dr Charles Drew. The list goes on and on. I would also urge you to read a book called "Black Like Me" that I was required to read when I was in college many years ago. It changed my ideas about racism. Prestigious universities admit students because of what they think a student will contribute to their institution. Wouldn't Harvard have loved to produce someone like Colin Powell, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Andersen.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:18 am: Edit

excellent tip!

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:24 am: Edit

also try "Kaffir Boy" and "Kaffir Boy in America" by Mark Mathabane, as well as "Breaking Barriers: A Memoir", by Carl T. Rowan- these will surely give you folks some insight to this entire issue...

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:47 am: Edit

the point is the AA program is not on a personal level. A perfect SAT score gets 20 points, while being black gets 50. If I were an admissions officer, and I had to choose between student A or B. Student A is rich, 1550 SAT, top 1% of his class, 5 APs. Student B is poor, 1500 SAT, top 5% of his class, his school doesn't offer any APs. I would choose student B, because he has used the resources best available to him. And he will probably to so in college. I know this black girl (grades mediocre, parents rich) who got into Cornell, while her class valedictorian got rejected. The point is she had all the available resources, but she did not use it in the most efficient way. Yet she still got in to an Ivy school.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:19 am: Edit

sorry guys, i know you're probably sick of my postings by now, but something else just came to mind: it doesn't take a whole lot of intense thinking and pondering to figure out that we've got some pretty serious issues with race in this country. one really obvious and accurate indicator of these problems is the controversy over interracial relationships. it may very well be that some of you are or were involved in such a relationship. but if not, how many of you would (or could) participate in a serious, dedicated interracial relationship, feel totally at ease with it, and not have to brave hostile and obnoxious remarks from family and friends? just think about it and ask yourselves a few questions: why on earth would anyone be opposed to an interracial relationship? why would my parents not like it? why aren't there many minorities in my neighborhood, or in my school? why do all the black kids (or hispanic, or asian, e.t.c.) always sit together at lunch? why are there hardly any whites in my school? why are there HBUC's (historically black universities and colleges)? why are there black fraternities? why are there hispanic fraternities? why do we have to take standardized tests to get to university? why do certain groups of people historically perform poorly on these tests? who started all this race stuff in the first place?

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

I don't think that Yale regrets admitting George Bush even though he was a C student. I don't think Princeton regrets admitting Bill Bradley even though he was an average student with low SAT's. More and more people are realising that that there are other factors that contribute to human potential than grades or standardised tests. A lot of research is being done on EQ (emotional quotient) vs. IQ (intelligence Quotient). When you think that less than 10% of minorities get accepted into prestigious colleges all I can think is that must take alot of chutspa for them to apply knowing the opposition they face from the majority of people. That alone shows character. My son when he was thinking about not going to college reminds me that BIll Gates didn't.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:08 pm: Edit

I wrote my college entrance essay exam on Mathabane's Kaffir Boy!!!

I would suggest also Juan Perea's Immigrants Out, and then Dionne's Why Americans Hate Poliics; both address issues of AA among other polemic ones confronting minorities. This country is also highly nativist, something often overlooked.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Young7676 ...

I hope that, some day, you will realize how moronic this statement was:

>> I dont really agee with AA. Especially because the word "minority" only encompasses Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans. Technically, asians are minorities too right? I guess they mean non-intellectual minorities or something. <<

There is a very high percentage of Asians in the US top universities and more than probably deservedly so. However, Asians do not have a monopoly when it comes to intelligence and aptitude. Be happy that your parents tried to push you hard and insisted on excelling in school. However, along the way, you seem to have lost a great dosis of humility, compassion and understanding.

Your stupid and utterly arrogant comment represents a huge disservice to your community. It is that type of attitude and mindset that will, without a doubt, result in a big "R" on your application and not the lack of "AA".

I hope that you are truly a "minority" among your peers and your community. Shame on you!

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Coolmom~

Thanks for expressing that thought so eloquently.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 02:31 pm: Edit

chrissy: that's an awful lot of points just for being a black person- that makes me really feel good to be black! just joshin' ya... okay, i'm not sure i really understand your point, but okay- i'll accept it. now i know that i at least had 50 points in the bag when i applied- my SAT's were too low at 1500(they weren't quite perfect), so i guess i didn't manage to capture the additional 20 points for my SAT score. i'll tell you what was really strange to me- i received all kinds of mail and personal letters from recruiters from those schools during my junior year, urging me to apply, and telling me that minorities were highly sought after. they came to visit me and my parents and talk with us, and they called often. i wasn't accepted to any of them. I personally thought i was qualified, but the admissions committees obviously had something else in mind- we were on totally different pages!

Condoleeza Rice received her Bachelor and PhD degrees at the ages of 20 and 27, respectively, and became a professor at Stanford one year later; would you consider her an unqualified beneficiary of affirmative action? i'm pretty sure she benefitted from it in getting into college at that time, but do you think her professors let her pass her courses and graduate because she was black? do you think she was accepted to grad school and just given her M.A. and PhD degrees just because she was black and they wanted to produce black PhD's? do you think she made it to where she is now based on personal merit, or do you think she just continued to be promoted along the way because she is black, and Stanford needed black professors, and Bush needed blacks in his cabinet? not likely.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

oh, by the way, coolmom- interesting tidbit on Bill Bradley- i never knew that, and i can hardly imagine Yale, or any other school, regretting having produced two presidents!

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 02:48 pm: Edit

okay, okay- just one more post for the evening, and then i'm hitting the sack!!! now, you science people out there will know this book for sure, but i'd like to mention it as an inspiration for anyone struggling through physics/math classes, and just as an inspiration in general- the book is "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!", by Richard P. Feynman, one of the greatest physicists ever. it is absolutely HILARIOUS and very interesting as well, and it will certainly make you want to do physics!

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 02:56 pm: Edit

boo physics!!!! =)

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Andromeda~

I do not try to disagree with you but regarding the analogy with the German System and your quote:

>>i know that this works, because this is exactly what happens in the German system- anyone who finishes high school (the German "Gymnasium") can go to a public university, free of charge, no standardized tests involved- just let them know you're coming, and have proof of your high school diploma with you.<<

Do you know the percentage of students who GRADUATED from college in Germany in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s?

The number will be far below 50% and may dip into single digits for a great number of Universities. The attrition rates in the first 2 years of college is simply horrendous.

No system is perfect but stricter admission policies are still better. Finally, you would be wrong to believe that the top universities in Europe have a free-for-all admission policy.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 01:05 am: Edit

hi Xiggi,

no problem- feel free to disagree or correct me- this IS a discussion forum, and i like it because there is lots of information and many views here!

i know, because i myself am a product of the German university system- i received my "Diplom" from the University of Giessen in financial economics. when i didn't immediately get into graduate school in the states on my first attempt, i went elsewhere; i was fed up with the standardized testing and reccommendations and all that junk, so i tried my luck abroad. my language skills were strong enough (actually, i was subject to a harsh language test over 3 days as a foreigner- i had to pass that before being admitted, and, as an american, i had to show proof of a bachelors degree, since our school system is vaguely different than the german system), so i went for it. i can tell you this- not only during past decades was there a high attrition rate- it was pretty high when i finished as well!!! the point is not the attrition rate, but the fact that EVERYONE gets a shot at obtaining a higher education, and that there is one uniform qualification- that you have a high school degree. it is the job of the universities to flunk you out before you can get out and do any harm to the world if you're not capable, and that is exactly what happens here. but no single person slips through the cracks because of bogus admissions standards- you may very well flunk out a year after being admitted, but at least you will have gotten your chance to prove yourself at real, genuine university level studies instead of having to go through a series of monkey tests that supposedly simulate the conditions and the level of work you'll be doing at university, you know? they "test" you with the real thing here! as for other countries, i don't really know how that works- but i do know that it is free in germany, and you REALLY have to put out and make a valiant effort the entire time, because it is super intense, and the level is very high and theoretical.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 05:04 am: Edit

to be a bit more precise concerning the cost of an education in Germany, it's not completely "free", since you have to eat and live somewhere during your studies....but it's comparably free, when you compare it with the cost of an education at even the cheapest public college/university in the states- one single registration fee of approx. $150.00, per semester. the only reason it costs even this amount is because, about 5 or 6 years ago, the government cut a deal with the public transportation systems all over the country, which allowed students to use public transportation free of charge, roughly within a 150 mile radius of their respective universities; prior to the introduction of this system, the fees were only about $50.00. other than that, parents support kids here, taking care of the cost of living expenses; scholarships as we know them in the states are pretty much non-existent, however, sufficient financial aid (called "Bafoeg") is granted to all needy students. it is paid back after completion of your studies, without interest. as far as the curriculum goes, the order in which you complete exams and write your thesis may vary from major to major, but you generally have 5 written comprehensive exams at the "pre-masters" level in order to reach the upper level; the upper level consists of completing 3 research seminars of your choice, with presentations, then a thesis, and finally the 5 comprehensive oral and written exams leading to the final degree. not bad for a "free" education, huh?

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:05 am: Edit

Andromeda,

what school are you attending in the Fall?

Personally, I was mad (but not shocked) that I wasn't accepted into UPenn. It was the only Ivy League school I applied to. (I didn't feel I was Harvard or Princeton material, and I definitely didnt want to be in Columbia/NYC) but as I read more about Penn, the more I'm happy that I'm not going there.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

Andromeda~

I am glad that you benefitted from the German system. Every country has tried to come up with the perfect system.

My father is from Western Europe and I asked him about the "system". It is a fact that Western Europe has been dominated by ultra-democratic governments (central socialists, most often) since WW2. Despite that the tide has been turning slightly, the system is geared towards a high tax system with lots of "free" services.

However, when one gets taxed at 70 to 90% levels, it would be hard to appreciate getting free transportation, quasi free medical or free schooling.

Also, despite the fact that it is supposed to encourage massive participation in higher education, you also need to realize that the system is VERY elitist. Most low-income and medium-class cannot afford the university hidden costs and need to start earn a living to support themselves or their families. The higher class members can afford tutors and do not need a side job while studying. As a result, the attrition levels are much higher for the "poorer" people and most people who graduate from the universities are well-off people.

If you really come to think about it, the chances for disadvantaged or URM are much better in the US. The tax burden to the families is very low and thru the various financial programs, almost all deserving -be it academically or through sports- students will find his place in the several thousands universities in the US.

Again, no system is perfect but we should not drool about the European system

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit

of course not, Condoleeza Rice is amazing, she doesn't need AA. I'm sorry for your rejections. I've also received many letters and personal emails telling me that they'll help me get in, and I still got rejected. But on one visited me.
p.s. Feynman is a genius with an amazing sense of humor.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 11:42 am: Edit

Hey Xiggi,

your dad is ON THE MONEY with the tax thing- taxation is the name of the game here! Germany is pretty bad (70 - 90 percent would be slightly overdoing it), but not as bad as, say, Sweden. the general standard of living here is, however, quite high, and this has quite a bit to do with the level of taxation. germany is in the painful process of reforming its system now, so things here will ultimately change, and the distribution of wealth is sure to shift considerably once these changes begin to take effect. i can't exactly agree with you on the attrition rates of those who were "poor"- in fact, i don't know that ANYONE here ever has taken advantage of tutoring services! german universities are PURELY academic, with no frills- so the majority of students are extremely dilligent and come ready to work hard and finish as quickly as possible. i had to work to support myself as well, since, as a foreigner, i was not eligible for the "bafoeg" financial aid provided by the german government- i may be a lot of things, but one thing i definitely wasn't, was well off! so i can't confirm your dad's statements there. most students who work either get jobs over the summer and save up for the following semester, or they work small jobs during school, 2 or 3 times a week. students can also get enough bafoeg to survive if they need it- you won't live like a king, but you will be able to finish your studies and not starve to death. sure- i, too, find the american universities much more comfortable and more personable, but the overall purpose of university is to obtain an education, and this should be accesible to everyone who is academically qualified; any other barriers should be non-existent. scholarships and all the other forms of financial aid available at home are just great, but if you can't get into school because of your SAT's, or because you couldn't pass your high school exit examinations (as in the case of those 12,000 kids in florida) inspite of having completed all your course work and in-school final exams, all the financial aid in the world isn't going to help your cause.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Good points, Andromeda.

Just one thing to consider is that my dad experience dates from the 70s. Things are changing everywhere.

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:25 pm: Edit

http://www.goarmy.com/army101/benefits.htm#education

Students that normally couldn't afford college can join the military for two years and then enlist in a college for basically free. Instead of the students just free-loading their college off the gov't, they're giving something back by serving in the military.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 12:29 am: Edit

well, amazingly enough, things haven't changed all that much here since the 70s- the reunification in 1989 got the ball moving somewhat, but things are still very "stable" and static. i'll tell you what the greatest disadvantage is, and that is the amount of red tape you have to cut through to accomplish some things! sometimes it seems as though nothing matters as long as the rules are abided by- regardless of whether the rules make any sense at all and are totally counterproductive. By the way- German males are REQUIRED by law to either serve 15 months in the millitary, or complete 18 months of civil service work. most do this immediately following school before they go to university; some choose to finish university first, then they "serve their country" afterwards before embarking on a career....

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 04:52 am: Edit

hey folks,

here's an interesting link on the "success" of standardized testing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/22/education/22EDUC.html?th

it appears such tests are successful in doing exactly what they were intended to do- keep certain people from certain schools in certain areas/neighborhoods from progressing. now they're finding out that this can include any and everybody. standardized testing would be just peachy keen if all of those being tested really were on the same level in terms of education. no wonder the results are so crummy. there are two solutions to this problem: either bring the level and quality of education at substandard schools up to par with the schools that are producing good results, so that everyone who takes these tests is on the same educational level, or do away with the tests.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 05:57 am: Edit

The New York Times article was very interesting. Another really sad fact is that many states also have lowered the standards for teacher certification. The Praxis exam that many states require teachers to take does not have the same passing standards for all the states. Some states even came up with their own standardised test.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 07:55 am: Edit

that's a good point. so why all the testing anyway? how do they test a teacher's skill in educating his/her pupils? which skills are tested?

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 09:36 am: Edit

ETS administers the Praxis exam. Their website gives an outline of what skills are being tested. As with all the other standardised tests this test is being administered so that "the powers that be" have some kind of quantitative measurement that they can hold up as a standard. The problem is that states have the ability to choose what their passing requirements are. As a result a teacher that is certified in one state may not be eligible for certification in another state even though they sat the same exam. The other problem with the inequality of education is where teachers want to work. I have heard many teachers say "You couldn't pay me to work in certain areas" Yet some school districts have waiting lists of teachers who want to work there. They will even do volunteer work in districts they want to work in. I honestly don't know what the solution is. One of the reasons I support AA is with the hope that students who come from poor neighborhoods which seem to have predominantly a minority population will want to give back to these communities.

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 10:35 am: Edit

Andromeda, what college are you attending in the fall?

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 12:15 pm: Edit

oh tenisghs, i'm done already! sorry about that- i saw that you had asked that question a couple of days ago. i'm heading back to school fall 2004 to start my PhD. actually, i've got my heart set on Northwestern's Kellogg School (empirical finance), so we'll see what happens. i was a lot smarter this time around and chose several "safety" schools to apply to as well. i originally thought this was another site for those who are grad school bound, and since my test taking skills are very rusty and i've been out of academia for a few years, i was looking for others who share my situation! i really like the discussions here, and they remind me quite a bit of my own efforts back when i was trying to get into a prestigious institution after high school!

By Tenisghs (Tenisghs) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 12:22 pm: Edit

LOL!!!! I'm so sorry. I didn't know you have already graduated. Good luck if you get into Northwestern's Kellogg Business school. While I won't see you (Kellogg is on the Chicago campus), I can't wait to start Northwestern for undergrad in the fall!! (By the way, I did apply to safety schools as well, I was just surprised to be accepted at Northwestern, Michigan, George Washington, etc.)

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

that is incredible- sure doesn't sound like a safety school list to me! i would've been completely overwhelmed, had such distinguished schools accepted me as an undergraduate right after high school!!! Northwestern is a very good school, you're really fortunate to be going there- that will be an incredible experience!! good luck, and learn all that you can!

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 07:21 am: Edit

Disabled students also benefit from AA. Everyone focuses on the racism aspect of AA however students who are classified as disabled also get special treatment in the admissions process. These students even have special accommodations made for them while taking standardized tests like the SAT. If AA is defeated won't that open the door to attacking the Americans with disabilities act? Unfortunately there is a lot of resentment about this act because of the extra costs it involves.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 09:35 am: Edit

definitely- that is exactly the problem with the AA arguments- everyone focuses on the racial aspect of it, because this nation is so consumed with race (see one of my earlier posts); while the current administration may eventually succeed in doing away with AA primarily as it applies to race, this will surely affect other areas of AA in which race does not play a role, and it will eventually affect many of the biggest critics of race-based AA. only then will people begin to realize that AA is much more than an issue of race.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 10:57 am: Edit

Think we convinced everyone on the benefits of AA?

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Edit

I agree entirely, and regardless of the "civil rights movements of the 1960's" (please...), I believe America maintains racist practices. Thanks for bringing the issue foward.

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 12:45 pm: Edit

in response to the original post,
two wrongs don't make a right...
of course its unfair that some kids are born in "segregated" "ghetto" schools. but trying to compensate with AA, which is also discrimination between races, is also very unfair. so, ur stuck with the first wrong, the "segregated schools", and another wrong, the disadvantage for Asians in getting into college. the second does not make up for the first, it just makes creates more discrimination in a different form.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 12:56 pm: Edit

CoolMom -
"One of the reasons I support AA is with the hope that students who come from poor neighborhoods which seem to have predominantly a minority population will want to give back to these communities."

Shouldn't you support a sytem of admissions for disadvantaged children economically? Not by the color of your skin, seemingly AA seems racist to me. I thought we were all equal.

"If AA is defeated won't that open the door to attacking the Americans with disabilities act?"

Please explain -
Are minorities in this country disabled? You're sounding pretty racist.

Andromeda65 -
"AA is much more than an issue of race."

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Affirmative Action is based upon race? Unless I am mistaken.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 01:07 pm: Edit

You are right two wrongs don't make a right and getting rid of AA would definitely be wrong. How does AA discriminate against asians? Take for example Princeton's statistics:
%African Americans 8%
Hispanics 6%
Asian 13%
Caucasion 67%
Who has the highest percentage here? Who would you say is taking the spots of hardworking asians? For more statistics like this go to the princeton review website. I honestly don't think that by getting rid of african americans and hispanics, asians will get more spots. It is in everyones interests to educate the entire population to the best of societies ability. You have to start somewhere. Educating african americans is in its infancy when compared to other ethnic populations especially asians who come from an incomparable civilization of knowledge and culture.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 01:07 pm: Edit

i don't know what Asians you're talking about, but in my math and science courses in college, roughly 80% of the students were Asian, and they all did EXTREMELY well. why do you say they're not getting into colleges? they were certainly at my university!

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Hi Andromeda I guess we have to convince the new people again
Sirmoreau unfortunately racism is a fact in this country. When reading these posts there were so many references to the inferiority of minorities who get into college that I realised that the need for AA is very important. To deny that there is racism is to be deliberately obtuse and if there is racism then it is definitely a handicap. Economically disadvantaged students get a break no matter what their color. That is why we file FAFSA forms. However no one will convince me that even with equal statistics if a caucasian and an african american were to be chosen for admission without AA the caucasian would be picked because of an ingrained perception that somehow minorities are inferior. How do we change this? Also if you look under AA laws you will see it also includes the disabled.

Sorry I don't rally type very fast.

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 01:44 pm: Edit

coolmom- getting rid of AA is a right, not a wrong. so it gets rid of the second wrong so instead of two wrongs u now have a right and a wrong. yes we should work to educate the entire population but AA is not the way to do it. Also, AA supporters keep trying to say that asians are not at a disadvantage but yes they are.
the Princeton percentages of each race means nothing, because there are more caucasians than the other minorities in general and it is expected that more of them, or at least an equal number, apply to the college. also, just because there is a larger % accepted does not mean they got in through AA. a college could have 80% african american and 20% asian and that could still be fair if the african americans who got in all had equal or better scores/essays/EC's etc than the asians.
i didn't include caucasians as benefiting/being hurt by AA because i wasn't sure about the stats on that. but i DO know that asians who have higher EC's, test scores, etc have been rejected when african americans/ hispanics with lower scores have been accepted. of course, in some cases maybe the asians had TERRIBLE essays and the other minorities had SUPERB essays but that seems unlikely, because ppl with a better highschool education and rigorous course schedule probably have better writing skills to a certain extent, if even only in the grammar part.also, the terrible/superb essay thing cannot be the case everytime.
oh one last thing, it has been estimated that if certain UC's got rid of AA then the percentage of asians would shoot up to 80% and there would only be 7~10 african americans/hispanics in the entire school. sorry its kinda fuzzy i will try to go and get better stats so what im saying is more reliable. eine minuten.
andromeda- im not saying asians are NOT getting into top schools altogether cuz of AA, im saying only a small fraction of those who deserve to get in are being accepted.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Almostdone what happens if we never educate the minorities in this country? What happens if we go back to the last century where all people of color and women are considered inferior and not worth educating? Another scenario what if we go by SAT scores only? So that mainly asians got in? Do you think the caucasian population would be happy with that? AA benefits asians in the work place because they are considered under represented in managerial positions. It does not benefit asians in education because they are considered to be well represented because of their percentage in the population. Which to me seems like a quota system ( we can't have more than 13% asians because then they will start taking over). Probably the fairest thing would probably be to go by the percentage of each ethnic group in the population and make sure that it is the representation in colleges. However i think that with AA we can remedy some of the inequalities and eventually we won't need it.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 02:20 pm: Edit

I copied this from an AA website:

What is Affirmative Action?

Affirmative action consists of programs that actively take into account race, gender, national origin, disability, or veteran status to remedy the effects of past discrimination. These programs include training, special recruitment, mentoring, development activities, and other assistance.

The following groups are protected by affirmative action regulations:

Cultural/ethnic and racial groups, including African Americans, Hispanics, Asians/Pacific Islanders, and American Indian/Alaskan Natives
Women
Individuals with disabilities
Vietnam-era veterans

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 04:03 pm: Edit

coolmom- "Another scenario what if we go by SAT scores only? So that mainly asians got in? Do you think the caucasian population would be happy with that?"
its not about keeping people happy, its about what's right. and the two are not hte same. and what do you mean, if the 13% limit is nixed asians will start taking over? taking over?! taking over WHAT? so rite now caucasians have taken over the government, colleges, and the United States in general? please remember that the United States belongs to asians, as well as caucasians, not to mention african americans and hispanics. college is not about how well represented the population is. it is an educational institution before it is a political institution. the people should get in because they deserve to, not because of their skin color. what do u think would happen if we started applying AA to say, basketball? if 13% of the team HAD to be asian, and 60 something percent HAD to be caucasian? don't u think asians are HUGELY under-represented in US sports teams? but so what? many african americans are just naturally more talented at it and are born with better athletic abilities and are also taller on average. but we let that go because its sports. we don't need to equally represent the races on every sports team. i believe its the same with college. i'm not just siding with asians. it's the same with the work place. work places should not have AA, whether it benefits asians, caucasians, african americans, or hispanics. AA is merely cementing racial discrimination, and acknowledging that there is a difference between skin colors, and that we should treat each race accordingly.
"what happens if we never educate the minorities in this country? What happens if we go back to the last century where all people of color and women are considered inferior and not worth educating?" that would be terrible. but nixing AA is definitely NOT going to cause this. we have black-only and women-only colleges. also, it is ESPECIALLY not necessary for any minority to get into a top50 college in order to be educated. if they study hard, etc, and earn it, fine. but there is no need for top colleges to have AA just to educate the minorities. also, we are slowly working our way, so that now education up to a certain level is mandatory. public schooling is free and open to everyone. so you don't need to worry about going back to situations like that of the last century. ALSO, even if, say, getting rid of AA caused minorities to miss crucial education. are you saying asians (and caucasians?) must be sacrificed and miss getting as much recognition for their work as they deserve, just so we can educate the minority? ALSO, take this example: say that, Without AA, an african american girl cannot get into college and get her education. but with AA, she gets in. then because She got in with AA, obviously, someone else, who would have gotten in, did not. doesnt matter whether this other person is asian or caucasian, etc. don't they deserve just as much, or even more (since they would have gotten in without AA), to get educated? are you saying that a hispanic person's education is more important than an asian person being educated?
One final point. I'm a girl. I would hate to think that i got into a certain college because of the fact that i was a GIRL, when there was some boy out there who had better stats/achievemnets, etc, who did not get in because of AA. I want to know I earned it, not just got in to make the college have "proper representation" of both genders.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Guess what? not that long ago as a girl no matter how smart you were you would not have been able to get into some of the more prestigious colleges e.g. Princeton, West Point etc. Guess what changed that? AA ! We went through being ridiculed and called all kinds of names. Being feminist back then was a dirty word! You only look at test scores and think that should be the only criteria for admissions. However there are so much more things that go into a persons ability to be successful. It should absolutely shame this country that such a small percentage of minorities are eligible to get into colleges. When my kids were young and I had to take them to get their shots, they would scream . However I knew that even though it was going to cause pain some things were for the greater good. By the way I was being facetious when I wrote ( we can't have more than 13% asians because then they will start taking over). Everyone has a right to get an education no matter who they are and there are so many colleges and universities that there is no reason why everyone can't. However too many parents have pushed their children to think that they should only go to an Ivy league college or a school like MIT. With the number of applicants that would be impossible even if there wasn't AA. This is when you realise this is not about education but about prestige. These top schools also realise that and look beyond grades and gpa's. They look at things that will make them look good whether it is a top athlete or a minority who has something unique to contribute. Since most of the students getting into college are not minorities it would definitely seem that caucasians are not being denied a crucial education. As I said 67% of those accepted to Princeton are caucasian. Look up the CEO's of the Fortune 500 companies and tell me what race are the CEO's? How many minorities have been elected as president of the USA? George Bush had SAT's in the 1200 range and still got into Yale and also the majoriy of this country voted for him. The majority of this country isn't concerned with fairness they are concrened with keeping the status quo. Years ago I read an article about a young african american girl who had racked over a $100,000 dollars in scholarships to go to college. Her mother was a nurses aid who worked two jobs to support her children. This girl started from her sophomore year writing essays for different scholarships and entering as many contests as she could. She only scored in the 1200 range on her SAT but had a high gpa and lots of ec's she did not get into an ivy league college but she was so grateful just to be able to go to college. I have often wondred what happened to her. I only know that with that kind of determination she had the potential do anything. Many minorities don't even consider going to college which is why colleges have to actively recruit them. Many of these are on athletic scholarships.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Coolmom -
What is the name of the femnist group you're in? Also I feel bad for your children. What happens to the poor white kids who can't get in on AA? ultimately they end up getting shafted. The forefathers of this country were white men, they also wrote the constitution of the United States of America. Sure, racism does occur, but it's not that big of a deal. No matter, where in the WORLD you are, you'll find racism. There is a reason why so many minorities are fleeing to America - it's mainly due to the absolute freedom we have. Infact, our government pays for homeless to survive - 5,000 dollars per person in San Francisco. They ought to get rid of the AA system and work on educating poorer people (yes, including white people) and allow children into schools based on the economic situation, not based on where there parents were born, generations ago or looks. With AA - all you are doing is allowing someone admission based on looks. As far as people with disabilities go, that is an entirely seperate entity - colleges MUST allow a certain amount of them in - in order to fill a certain quota.

Just my 2 cents, i'm going to stop arguing this, please stop with the femnist comments, you're really being hypocritical.


"Guess what? not that long ago as a girl no matter how smart you were you would not have been able to get into some of the more prestigious colleges e.g. Princeton, West Point etc. Guess what changed that? AA !"

Do you have any facts to back that up? Plus do you really think females are "still" getting in because of Affirmative Action, I think not - colleges pretty much view males/females as equals now.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Wow, WOW! great discussions going on here!!! you guys should take a quick peek at your history books whenever you have a chance and refresh your memories with regards to "Jim Crow" and other race-based legislation that took place in the not too distant past in america...don't forget that legal segregation applied ONLY to the black race; from bathrooms, to water fountains, to the military, to schools and education- it was only the blacks that were forced, BY LAW, to be separated from the rest of american society; other races were thrown into the same boat as the white race and were pretty much allowed to do as they pleased. as someone mentioned above, there surely will always be racism, but rest assured there are varying degrees of it, depending on your race. Jim Crow legislation eventually led to the formation of ghettos, and, indirectly, to the advent of suburbian life in america (when legal segregation "ended", blacks began to encroach upon white neighborhoods, lowering the property value of those areas, thus causing an exodus of whites out of the inner cities and into the areas we know today as suburbs). As for the comparison of admission to the NBA with college admissions, i think these are two completely different matters. being a professional athlete requires enormous physical skills and talent, and this can ONLY be measured in a physical manner- anyone trying out for the NBA, or any other professional sport organisation will know IMMEDIATELY whether or not he/she is capable of competing in his/her chosen sport at that level- there is no ambiguity whatsoever. however, by taking a standardized test to enter college, nobody knows what the true level of achievment is- not even an admissions committee. it could very well be that a potential student just happens to be an extremely poor test taker, but could also be quite intelligent and would do very well with college level work. or that same student could be someone that tests very well, but is not cut out for college level work. Even if you had super grades and good test scores, that is still not an indication that you'll do well in college- therefore, lots of ambiguity in this case. so determining the level of intellectual potential in a person is a much more difficult task than determining whether or not someone is capable of playing professional sports. sure, very many professional athletes are black, they are qualified to play professional sports, and there's probably no affirmative action in the NBA, or in any of the other branches of professional sports, even if black quarterbacks didn't start to appear on the scene until about 10 years ago or so. Venus and Serena Williams are the best female tennis players the world has ever seen, and they learned the game on the streets of a ghetto in california. When Tiger Woods came on the scene in professional golf, there were many, many private clubs that were forced to re-evaluate their secret admissions policies; 15 years ago, he probably wouldn't have been allowed to play at most of those clubs. Venus, Serena and Tiger are all very intelligent individuals, and though some mental skill is definitely required for what they do, the evidence that they are capable of competing at a high level is not ambiguous at all- you know right away when you see them play their chosen sports. oh- and if blacks are "natural born" athletes as Almostdone asserts, then it is because they are the the only people in this country who were bred like animals for hundreds of years to produce strong, healthy slaves capable of doing hard labor; anything beyond this would be stereotyping. Yao Ming, for example, is in the NBA because he is very athletic and able to compete physically at that level; he didn't have to take some kind of monkey test to get in, all he had to do was show that he could play basketball and compete at a high level. he's tall, he's got the body for it, and he has the necessary skills. if there is anything that these two vastly different admissions processes have in common, it may be a certain political factor. other than that- no comparison!

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Woe is me. The "civil rights movements" of the 1960's and 70's only began what has now resulted in backlash between our generation; black, white, gay, underclass...everyone- we can get into all intricacies, as i've mentioned before, but the bottom line is that underlaying this nation's infrastructure is a very racist culture (albeit discreet). No racism? Explain vocational schooling and tracking. No sexism? Explain the numerous glass ceilings facing women in the corporate workplace--.75 cents to the dollar. Those are but glib examples.

Somehow our history teachers in elementary school denied us the factual stories of the past; and somehow they made us believe that this nation is premised in equality--there is absolutely no way that racism in this country is "all that bad."

By May_1 (May_1) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 11:07 pm: Edit

First, I want to say that I am not a supporter of AA as it is designed currently. However, because of the slight inherent advantage that may be afforded me, I will most definitely be marking off that check for minority on my applications.

Regarding AA, it is an oversimplification on the part of many AA opponents to say that some Hispanic/Black/Native American will be taking the “spot” from an Asian/Caucasian applicant. The fact is that the elite colleges perform a comprehensive review of each application that they admit is extremely subjective. What’s one reviewer’s “admit” is another one’s “borderline.” What’s one reviewer’s borderline is another’s “reject.” The point is that with all of the facets that go into creating and analyzing an application, it is not accurate to say that this Asian person had greater and better XYZ and that this black person got in only because of their ethnicity.

If you go waking around at HYPS and other similar elites, you will find that EVERYONE, regardless of their ethnicity has something interesting, that “hook”, that helped them. Largely, AA factors in admitting borderline applicants (and borderline at HYPSM is not bad at all). Furthermore, to say that one person is more deserving of admittance to certain schools is a call that you do not have the luxury to make. You are NOT the ones that make the admissions decisions. Higher SATs/GPAs do not necessarily make you more deserving. I personally know people with 1600s and 4.0s who do noting but work slavishly away always trying to get the A+++++ and add on another meaningless club or accolade who haven’t got an original thought in their heads. On the other hand, I know people with 1400s and 1500s and 3.7-3.9s who are so brilliant hat they just blow your mind; unfortunately, the latter is not as easy to come by as the former.

Also, although many would not want to admit it, they are prejudiced (I DIDN’T say racist), as they have been trained that the Asian/white students are automatically better than the minority students. The fact is that once you get to the HYPSM level, and you get through the first admissions hurdle, EVERYONE generally has something very meritorious going for them. At this you’re, as others have called it, holding a lottery ticket. AA will only serve to make one 3.9, 1500s minority w/ great letter of recommendation and ECs stand out from the crowd of already excellent students. AA is nowhere nearly as pervasive and influential as you’d like to think. The Asians and whites who were rejected from the elites would have likely been rejected anyways because underrepresented minorities (qualified and under-qualified alike) make up less than 8% of the admitted student, and of this number, very few are under-qualified. It’s amazing how everyone fails to mention the under-qualified whites and Asians due to the assumption that they are all qualified.

By May_1 (May_1) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Also, it is EXTREMELY ignorant to say that blacks in general are somehow born with better athletic abilities or are naturally more talented. It's not a product of genetics but rather of the importance placed on sports in the mainstream black community. Because it is seen as a path to success, many are trained (whether in the gym or by playing street ball) from an early age, which results in better performance as an adult. This is comparable to the emphasis on education that exists in the mainstream Asian community. Why, then, does AA exist in education and not athletics? It is because owners have neither the resources nor the time to train an athlete to a professional level. The owners want to make as much money as soon as possible; that means that the athlete must excel from the time they step on to an NBA court. This bears NO resemblance to education. The purpose of higher education IS to teach. It is one’s potential to learn and apparent eagerness to take advantage of the available resources at an institution of higher education that determines how the person will turn out four years from now. FOUR years!!! How different were you four years ago? Furthermore, in the case of minorities, particularly blacks and Hispanics, it DOES make a dramatic difference in future salary where you go to college. This points to the fact that, in the real world, unlike an Asian or Caucasian person, a black or Hispanic person’s degree must be validated by attendance at an elite institution (i.e. HYPSM). This is but one example of the inherent prejudice and racism that many face upon entrance the job market.

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 11:30 pm: Edit

andromeda- "it was only the blacks that were forced, BY LAW, to be separated from the rest of american society; other races were thrown into the same boat as the white race and were pretty much allowed to do as they pleased." uhuhuh...what about the japanese being forced to leave their homes and property and seperated into camps after pearl harbor got bombed? and other races were DEFINITELY NOT "pretty much allowed to do as they pleased". well, recently its a LOT LOT better. but just to let you know, there are historical examples, such as a certain number of people of each race being allowed to immigrate to the US, and they made it hard for immigrants to vote by making it take a long time for them to become citizens. so all foreigners had a tough time. oh yeah, and going waaaaaaaaaay back, before the africans became the most popular race for slaves, they used slaves imported from the carribeans (sp?), so those people have suffered too.
also, i wasn't saying that if we have AA in education we should have it in sports too, or anything of the like. i was just comparing the two to show that AA in education is just as ridiculous as AA in sports. ur right about the sports being less ambiguous, but AA does not make the college admission any LESS ambiguous, so that is not a good reason for AA to exist in college admiss. but not sports.

coolmom- "With the number of applicants that would be impossible even if there wasn't AA." yes, unfortunately that is true, admission is crazy these days, esp. for ivy leagues and other "prestige" schools. but without AA, it would make it possible for at least a few more, who didn't get in because of AA.
" Guess what? not that long ago as a girl no matter how smart you were you would not have been able to get into some of the more prestigious colleges e.g. Princeton, West Point etc. Guess what changed that? AA ! " uh...maybe so, but it could have changed WITHOUT AA, u know. instead of giving girls a benefit, they could have just treated us EQUALLY, graded us EQUALLY, and then the girls who were smart enough would have got in. maybe not as many girls would be in princeton without AA - if thats the truth, then so be it. i don't think having XX chromosomes counts as an achievment. neither does having a-lot-of-melanin-producing genetic makeup.
as for "Everyone has a right to get an education no matter who they are and there are so many colleges and universities that there is no reason why everyone can't." - MY POINT EXACTLY!!! we don't need AA for minorities to get college education. they can get in themselves without benefiting from their skin color.

oh and, this is from a post a little bit further back, but in response to "Affirmative action consists of programs that actively take into account race, gender, national origin, disability, or veteran status to remedy the effects of past discrimination." TO REMEDY past discrimination. thats the part i have a problem with. see. here we go with the "two wrongs dont make a right" again. u can't compensate for past discrimination with MORE discrimination, u really cant. im really sorry for what happened to the African Americans in regards to slavery - it IS a BIG deal. but if we really wanted to "make up for it", then we should have the caucasians be slaves for 300 hundred years, have them sit on segregated back seats on buses, and, thinking on an even bigger scale, a Jewish dictator should be extremely cruel towards all Germans and massacre them. oh yeah. and Vietnam and other Southeast asian countries should occupy China for a while, and Korea should take over Japan for about 50 years, and make them all change their Japanese names to Korean names, and make them pledge to the Korean flag. Native Americans should also invade Europe and spread a terrible disease that europeans have never encountered and wipe more than half of them out. Obviously, "an eye for an eye" isnt going to work. I'm not saying u should forgive and forget everything that minorities suffered, but giving the "majority" a disadvantage is not really helping...also, what makes the decendents responsible for what their forefathers did? We can't hate and punish Hitler's great grandchildren for what he did(if he had any children. maybe he didnt), unless of course, they have the same beliefs he held.

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 12:20 am: Edit

May1- uh no, its not ignorant to say that blacks are, on average, born with more athletic talent. of course, not EVERY african american is better at sports than EVERY asian. but didn't u know that asians are on average shorter, and it's in their genetic make up? i dont think being taller is due to the culture. well, maybe what they eat helps a SMIDGE. but there's definitely something genetic in there, no doubt about it. of course, the cultural emphasis on sports helps. but i doubt that as many asians would make it to the NBA even if they were raised in an african american community. someone should do an experiment on this. it'd be interesting to see the results.

i don't care HOW MANY asian/caucasians are hurt or how many benefit from AA. even if its only the one or two borderline people that are affected, it may mean the world to them and it is extremely unfair to them, so it should be outlawed.

gee.....all this race/skin color stuff makes me wish sometimes that we were all the same rainbow color.

By May_1 (May_1) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 01:15 am: Edit

Actually, Almostdone, when you are referring to the NBA, you are referring to the extremes in talent and physical height, which isn’t indicative of the averages, considering they are no more than a few inches different. Also, height plays less a role than talent when you’re taller than 6’6”. Also, what I said was that one borderline student may be treated differently by each reviewer, REGARDLESS of the person’s ethnicity. Therefore, the difference between an admit and a reject at these schools is a matter a fortune, not necessarily greater qualifications.

Also, even if affirmative action were outlawed, it would still be practiced, simply because if there are two equally qualified admit-able candidates to a school, one Asian and one black, but you can only choose one, the black one will (and should) be accepted.

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 03:16 am: Edit

May1- yes i know the NBA players were extreme, I also was referring to the AVERAGE difference in heights. a few inches difference between the averages is a lot actually, and 6'6" + is not that easy of a height to reach. U'll find more african americans are over 6'6" than asians.

"Also, what I said was that one borderline student may be treated differently by each reviewer, REGARDLESS of the person’s ethnicity. Therefore, the difference between an admit and a reject at these schools is a matter a fortune, not necessarily greater qualifications." its not ALWAYS solely a matter of fortune. and if it is, let it be fortune, not AA. so AA doesnt make that much of a difference. what im saying is lets make it so that it doesnt make ANY difference, ever. (well, at least when it comes to race and gender)

"Also, even if affirmative action were outlawed, it would still be practiced, simply because if there are two equally qualified admit-able candidates to a school, one Asian and one black, but you can only choose one, the black one will (and should) be accepted." the black one SHOULD? why? what makes black students better? explain please? also, i get ur point about it still going on even if it is outlawed, but hey, outlawing it is a start. drugs still go on, but that doesnt mean we should just get rid of the drug law. The laws actually prevent some people from doing drugs. So maybe outlawing AA won't prevent all discrimination, but i'm sure it will help SOME.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 04:01 am: Edit

so- it doesn't look as if the race problems are going to cease to exist until a meteor strikes the earth and makes us all extinct in one powerful blow. so until that time comes, public universities need to adopt a policy of admitting anyone who has graduated high school or completed a G.E.D. private universities can continue to select an exclusive student body through the use of monkey tests if they so choose; but know that an alternative exists. it would certainly help to have all schools and educational programs on the same level before this is done, but that obviously isn't in the cards(remember- the current administration is proposing school vouchers as a solution to the nation's educational problems), since it would create a level playing field for all americans. so why not just bypass the schools and assume that anyone with a high school degree can handle college level work? leave the selectivity up to the colleges to flunk those out who are not capable- but at least everyone will be given a chance to attempt the actual level of studies in universities and colleges. if you don't make it, you don't make it- but you will have had a fair shot at it.

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 07:00 am: Edit

Sirmoreau I feel truly sad for you and the attitudes that have been passed on to you not to mention the gaps in your education if you do not know the history of AA. By the way 30 years ago I belonged to NOW. After college I did the traditional thing got married, had children, didn't continue with NOW and all the other groups I belonged to. I have tried to pass on to my children that they are single threads in a complex fabric weave and in this great nation that we live in we all have to understand our interdependance. My children have dated interracially despite negative comments. They have also been encouraged not to think selfishly and that when they don't get what they want to blame others for it. Sometimes that has been hard especially when my son has not won a competition he thought he had earned but I always say it was not your turn. When he has won a competition I tell him you proved you were the best. several years ago when my daughter was applying for college she did early decision for her top choice ( didn't bother applying anywhere else) which is one of the top colleges in the US. She dressed in a Sari (to my shock) and went for her interview. She discussed with the interviewer how she had met the Dali Lama and the influence that had on her life ( it was also the topic of her college essay). I was surprised when she got in. Even though she had a high GPA her SAT score was only in the 1300 range.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Only in the 1300 range? The 1300 range is damn good. The average at Cal Berkeley was a 1290. Women have the same scores as men (on average) on the SAT's, therefore colleges don't neccesarily give a •••• if you're a guy or a girl, however, African Americans tend to score much lower. Therefore, they have a much better chance of getting in, b/c colleges realize this. More women now a days go to college then men, so I don't see how AA can work into their favor? Be glad your son didn't win any competitions, they're really geeky and not something i'd want to brag to my children about. Wow, you were auctually in a femnist group, NOW. I don't really familiarize myself with something such as AA, that just decreases my chances of getting into the college of my choice, my only attitude about it - is a deep seeded hate. No one gives a •••• about white males anymore, you know, I don't see any white male activist groups. We're slowly getting shafted in this great crounty, our forefathers built. Pretty soon, no white males will be attending the most prestigious colleges, my kids we are talking about here. Unless of course, we include white males into the scheme of AA, and if we did that then AA would be pointless (ultimately asains you'd also have to include). You probably don't see what is going on (nor will you ever), but AA is racist to white males and asains.

By May_1 (May_1) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

Wow...I really don’t know what to say to you Sirmoreau. I’m really just flabbergasted on this one. Just one question: Are you on crack or heroin? I’m serious. Only someone on some serious narcotics could be as deluded as you. “Pretty soon, no white males will be attending the most prestigious colleges.” It is going to be a LONG time before we even come CLOSE to parity in college admissions. When it comes to who gets into the “name” colleges, WHITE MALES STILL RULE THE ROOST!!! I haven’t got the figures with me, but check any elite colleges statistics, and who will you find as the OVERWHELMING majority? You guessed it, white males!!! I think this “deep seeded hate” you have for AA is blinding you to the realities of the college admissions process and the ethnic and gender makeup of not only the elite colleges, but also the boardrooms of the most powerful companies in America!

Yes, underrepresented minorities typically score lower than Caucasians and Asians. What you fail to note is that ALL minorities do not apply to Stanford- and Harvard-like schools. The truth is that the elite schools typically fight over the few meritorious minorities that apply and are admitted. I assure you that the caliber of minority student applying to the Ivies and 1st tiers is substantially different than the rest of the population, which also occurs in the Caucasian population. Because there are few minority applicants of this quality and they typically goes to the 1st tiers, this creates a brain drain for other colleges. As an extreme example, I will use the Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs). The HBCUs cannot possibly stack up to even the 2nd tiers because they must settle for the middle level of talent and merit in black students. This is mirrored, albeit more subtly, at the other 2nd tier and lower 1st tier schools, in which the quality of a very small quantity of the minorities may be lower than the general populace.

“We're slowly getting shafted in this great county, our forefathers built.” Am I to give you a prize because your alleged forefathers (could it be possible that your ancestors emigrated in the 1900s?) spread diseases across this land, massacred millions of sovereign people, subjugated another continent and raped it of its people to use as labor over here, set them free after centuries of brutality, and then further discriminated and continue to discriminate against them? Well your grand prize is (drumroll please………..) AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!!!!!!! Not tomention complete domination in the workplace, unfair and inherent preferential treatment (the Good Ol' Boys Club) in education and profession. You are obviously too blind and ignorant (and I mean that in an objective, non-insulting way) to even consider the complexities of the situation, but I figured I might as well try.

P.S. I apologize for the appearance of this post as an ad hominem attack, butI just feel that you cross some reality lines and needed a reality check.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 02:38 am: Edit

I want a perfect arian race.

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 02:47 am: Edit

"When it comes to who gets into the “name” colleges, WHITE MALES STILL RULE THE ROOST!!! I haven’t got the figures with me, but check any elite colleges statistics, and who will you find as the OVERWHELMING majority? You guessed it, white males!!! "

38.5%(approximately) of Americans are white males.
27%(approximately) of Yale students are white males.
Look at these two sites if you don't believe me:
http://icpac.indiana.edu/education/college_profiles/130794.xml.print
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Next time look up the statistics before you spout your feminazi ••••••••, ok?


"Am I to give you a prize because your alleged forefathers (could it be possible that your ancestors emigrated in the 1900s?) spread diseases across this land, massacred millions of sovereign people, subjugated another continent and raped it of its people to use as labor over here, set them free after centuries of brutality, and then further discriminated and continue to discriminate against them? Well your grand prize is (drumroll please………..) AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!!!!!!!"

Thanks for the brilliant insight. In case you forgot, nobody on this board had anything to do with that. None of us were alive at the time, don't you think it's a little ridiculous to blame "us"? If your great-grandpa was a murderer, should we hold it against you?

Guess what, there was slavery in Africa before the white man. I agree that slavery is bad, but it has occurred in all races and religions throughout history, not just the white man subjugating other races..

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:19 am: Edit

Andromeda, Tiger Woods is part Asian. He's "Cau-Bla-sian". I don't see why we had to go and buy a "tall guy" who's not even that good at basketball (Rockets didn't make it to Playtoffs) from a Communist country; we have plenty of athletically able atheletes right here in the good old USA. Serena and Venus are RARE examples. Have you seen any other people from the ghettos rising? (except for NBA, etc.) AA is necessary to raise the bar in society.

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:19 am: Edit

It's Aryan.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:35 am: Edit

Well your grand prize is (drumroll please........) Absolute freedom. I don't see much discrimination right now, I don't know what planet you live on, I just know i'm being discriminated against by AA. You hate the white male, just come out and say it. Perhaps, it may be b/c our government is composed of white males, and I'd say our government operates pretty fricken well. Stop hating America and white males, for one second would you. I love this country to death and i'm willing to die for it, just as my forefathers fought blood in hand for it, but you don't seem to give a ••••, this country would not be in fricken exsistence if it wasn't for them. Instead, it seems as though you'd rather •••• on Jefferson, Hamilton, Washington, Lincoln etc. etc. B/C they're white males! I want my children to have equal oppertunity when they're older, at this rate they'll have no oppertunity at any top universities, it may not be clear to you now, but 30 years from now, at this rate, the white male will be very rare in the elite universities.

"...you have for AA is blinding you to the realities of the college admissions process and the ethnic and gender makeup of not only the elite colleges, but also the boardrooms of the most powerful companies in America!"

Realities of the college admission process? What are you talking about, how am I blinded, look at chim-chim's stats. As for the board room of most powerful companies in america, you get to the top based on character and charisma, not the color of your skin. You're just manifesting this "femninazi"/super-racist perception of white males, based on what you've read in history books and its ludicrious.

"Am I to give you a prize because your alleged forefathers"

My family immigrated in the 1700's thank you very much and later on played a major role in setting up a library at Cornell/my great great grandma was the first librarian. You don't need to give me anything, you just need to make the realization that you are infact playing the role as the "victim", when honestly there is no need for it, nothing in the past has effected you personally. You only view white males in a negative sense, you seem to be missing the positive aspects of what the white man has done for you and need to realize, we need to be moving into equality, opposed to opression of the white man, b/c i'd rather not be victimized by what my great-great-great-great grandparents did, whereas you seem to think you're the victim and are oppressed which is a load of horse s*** if you ask me. Infact, i'm almost positive nothing extremely racist has effected you in you're lifetime and until it has I think you should shot your hole. You have the ability to be apart of a "board" someday, if you play your cards right, regardless of your race or sex. Racism and oppression are for the most part non-exsistent anymore, females/minorities have been recognized in colleges and if we continue with AA, they'll be the majority in colleges, and therefore auctually EFFECTING white males. SOONER THAN YOU THINK..within 1-2 generations, check out Chim-Chims stats you ignorant turkey. Currently it is 1 out of every 4, soon it will be 1 out of every 8 and so and so fourth, until its nearly impossible. Bye.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:39 am: Edit

Aryan is normally pronouced sounding like "arian", well that was a joke. I'm more of a speaker then a writer. I'm somewhat illiterate, perhaps, it was because i'm a victim to society and no one is holding my hand and helping me through life or setting up any affirmative action for me, instead my skin color means i am the root of all evil.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:41 am: Edit

Also, asians seem to be getting shafted because they're smarter then everyone else, now thats pretty messed up.

Pretend i am a college admissions guy:

Lets see should i let in this indian-african-shemale with decent stats or the amazing super-talented asian. Well we've already filled up the asian quota better go with the indian-african shemale.

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:41 am: Edit

I think this is the white supremacist thing again. The white man is NOT superior. I mean, just because they were able to STEAL land from native peoples, stick their flag in the earth and claim it theirs; are they superior? In the age of imperialism, the white world was trying to conquer EVERYTHING, make Asia, Africa, the Americas their own. What right do they have to impose their rule on the land? Wouldn't it be the same if, say, a native Brazilian sailed to Portuguese, peed on the land, and claimed it for Brazil? Puh-leaze.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:45 am: Edit

forth..so many mistakes, just point them all out geenmoo please.

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:45 am: Edit

What does being illiterate have to do with society holding your hand...? Sounds like excuses to me. I'm FOR AA, but not when the minorities are using it to say to whites- "Nyah nyah- I got in because I'm a minority, even though you're more qualified" I'm Asian, so even though AA will work against me, it's great because we're working toward a new society here, if I don't get in to my dream school, I'll still have the motivation to succeed; give my spot to someone who doesn't have that motivation.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:57 am: Edit

Japan tried to conquer China (and would've conquered the whole world if possible). Russia tried to take over Europe. I don't support Hitler, i'm not a nazi. He tried to take over the world. Infact, France tried to take over Great Britian, so perhaps you should say white males tried to take over other white males. However, American (white males) only expanded its borders and had no intent on conquering anything, other then a land that spread out from one sea to the other sea. Besides the SPANISH stuck their flag into the soil in what is now called mexico and spread way up into what is now America.

"Wouldn't it be the same if, say, a native Brazilian sailed to Portuguese, peed on the land, and claimed it for Brazil? Puh-leaze. "

Yeah except, "america" was not established as a country yet. So lets say there are a few people on this large island, and then the Brazilians went over there and claimed it theirs, thats much more legit. I don't understand what your argument is, are you saying white males are evil conquerers? As if no other race has been throughout the course of history? You're not very bright green-moo. . . since you hate America so much, perhaps you ought to go back to your old country.

The Roman Empire was not built in a day.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

GreenMoo, I was being heavily sarcastic, I can't believe you didn't catch that, sure you can catch grammatical mistakes no problem...

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 04:02 am: Edit

What defines a country? I'm not say white males are evil conquerors, just that the justification that many give for they being superior is that they conquered so much of the world. What does the Roman Empire have to do with this?

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 04:05 am: Edit

A new society? What century are you living in? It's pretty appearent to me we have a new society, after what has occured in the past 200 years, as far as certain movements have gone and all the "suffrage" hehe. Seems like the new American society in which you want is one where the expansionistic white male is a dying breed?

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 04:08 am: Edit

What defines a country? .."Evil" America. Spain. France. Germany. China. What are you trying to get out of that question? Maybe you should just stop making an idiotic fool out of yourself, because other people will be reading these posts.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 05:27 am: Edit

Sirmoreau: you stated in one of your earlier posts that the white male will eventually become a rareity at elite universities; with these types of statements, i don't know why you don't consider yourself a NAZI- sounds to me like you are hell bent on preserving the white race- this is EXACTLY what anti-miscegenation laws passed by the "fathers of our country" set out to do- preserve the white race by outlawing the mixing of races. i can see why you admire so much the current administration- it is doing its absolute, very best to set this nation back 200 years or so. and i think it's just ducky that you admire such noble aspirations; however, you should know that nature will eventually take care of all of these problems for us, and that the demographics as we know them are certain to change over time. you may as well forget about racial purity being part of america's future. and if you worry about your children and their futures, then help them to alleviate any problems they may encounter by teaching them tolerance NOW, because it will certainly come in handy as time progresses!!!!!!

By Coolmom (Coolmom) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 10:04 am: Edit

This has degenerated into absolute drivel. Never mind the forefathers, the foremothers who gave birth to them are probably shaking their heads in disgust.
final posting on this thread!

By May_1 (May_1) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

First of all Sirmoreau, how dare you say that I hate the white male? How dare you insult my patriotism by imply that I hate my country? Well I’ll just have to pick you apart then. Let’s go.

“I don't see much discrimination right now…” From that statement alone I know you don’t have the sufficient life experiences to make any comments regarding race relations in modern America. Either you are a very sheltered person or you live in area where race is not a big issue. Good for you! Not all of us have that luxury. However, I do think you are blinded, or at least have tunnel vision, because you are keenly aware of any race-based preference that affects YOU. “…I don't know what planet you live on, I just know I’m being discriminated against by AA.” If it doesn’t have anything to do with you, then I guess it mustn’t exist!

“You hate the white male, just come out and say it…Stop hating America and white males, for one second would you. I love this country to death and I'm willing to die for it, just as my forefathers fought blood in hand for it, but you don't seem to give a ****,” Yeah, I’m not even going to address this ridiculously ignorant and abhorrently ad hominem attack. It speaks of your idiocy in volumes. Moving on…

“Perhaps, it may be b/c our government is composed of white males, and I'd say our government operates pretty fricken well.” You haven’t done any research I’m guessing? Else, you would know that correlation does not necessarily demonstrate causation. Just because two things appear to be related does not infer causation (Meltzoff 1998). The reason the “government operates pretty fricken well” is because people are willing to abide by a set of laws and understand that the **institution**, not the people who run it, should be inherently respected. The reason white males compose the vast majority of government is because business and politics have typically been the last bastion of homogeneous Caucasian male domination. In fact, the attempt to ensure this entrenchment not only exists in de facto discrimination today, but a mere 40 years ago was enforced de jure (by law). Next point…

“Instead, it seems as though you'd rather **** on Jefferson, Hamilton, Washington, Lincoln etc. etc. B/C they're white males!” Wrong. I respect them because had they not done what they’d done, none of us would be sitting here now having this discussion. I am, however, keenly aware of the institution to subjugate an entire people that Jefferson, Hamilton, and Washington propagated!!! I refuse to paint these men in overly rosy fashion merely because they were founding fathers. However, I have not and will not make character judgments on them. Furthermore, it is necessary to hold a critical eye to these men, because far too often they are heroified and deified. Again with the “white male” excretum…get over yourself.

“As for the board room of most powerful companies in America, you get to the top based on character and charisma, not the color of your skin.” Hah, please. What planet do YOU live on? You get to the top of middle management based on character and charisma; you get to the top based on the color of our skin (the word lily comes to mind) or by starting your own company. I don’t have a super-racist perception about white males; perhaps it’s merely that they are more comfortable with like faces. Who knows?

“You are infact playing the role as the ‘victim.’” Uhhh, wrong. I am not one of those black people who just blame the “man” for everything that’s wrong with their lives. Moreover, I’ve earned every accolade and award in and of my own merit. Often, I am the only black person in the room. It really does get annoying. I always feel like I have to prove myself so that I am not labeled the “dumb, black guy.” To tell you truth, I feel that when I don’t get the top prize, award, etc…that people tend to invalidate m accomplishments. To get to the point, I do not have any victim mentality. I am, however, keenly aware of the discriminatory treatment that I face on a weekly, if not daily, basis. “Infact, i'm almost positive nothing extremely racist has effected you in you're lifetime and until it has I think you should shot your hole.” Look, I don’t know who you think you are, but you do NOT know me. Before you make assumptions that you haven’t the luxury to make, you should know that not two weeks ago I was called a nigger by two white classmates, that I have had to constantly deal with a guidance counselor that everyone knows is prejudiced, that I must always prove my worth to people who would otherwise invalidate my accomplishments, and that you have never had to walk into a store knowing that there are many eyes watching because of the color of your skin. Have you ever thought twice about walking in a group of white males? I doubt it. Change the white to black, and picture my dilemma. Sometimes my friends and I would walk separately in pairs instead of in a big group so that we would not be harassed by mall police and storeowners.

“…you seem to be missing the positive aspects of what the white man has done for you…” Oh, thank the lord for the white man ALL that he has done for me, without him I would still be selling cocaine on the streets of Pacific Palisades. Please, don’t give me that paternalistic bull.

“Racism and oppression are for the most part non-exsistent anymore…” Again with the ridiculousness. Racism and oppression are alive and well. They are realities in modern America and simply because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Finally, in 1 to 2 generations, hopefully we will have reached a point when educational opportunities from the start, that is, kindergarten, will be equitable and adequate for all children, therefore eliminating the need for AA. Regarding chim chim’s stats, there is nowhere on either page that specifies distinctly the percentages of white males. You cannot just multiply the percentage of males by the percentage of white people. Oh yeah, don’t call me an ignorant turkey. We can converse as mature young adults, and not as debased hooligans.

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Isn't that obvious though? Pretty soon, Americans will be half white, half whatever, then quarter, then so on and so on. That's what happens when you live in an integrated society. I know eventually, it's going to happen to my Asian family, and it's sad that we can't retain our roots. As in education and business, it's always gonna be like this: minorities doing the work, while the white man rides to the top to being the "leader", because let's face it, he has that certain something. Now, maybe it's changing. True, now it's not very proportional; Asians make up...at most 3% of US's population, yet UCLA has over 40% Asian? AA will always screw someone over, whether you like it or not.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:52 pm: Edit

First of all, May 1 what hick town do you live in? Most of my friends are black and there is no racial •••• between us..these two black girls called me a "cracker" a while ago, should I go cry about that on a message board?. Racism does exsist to a certain extent, such as name calling - but outside of that it does not really exsist - other than these appearent "LOOKS" you get. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, perhaps, its entirely a different world. But even in Southern California racism does not really exsist. Please inform me of the town you live on and its location, thanks.

Sidenote: I'm not trying to preserve some race here, I just want my children to have a fair shot at the ivies.

May, look at our government and compare it to any other countries government. Need I say more? Colin Powell is black you fool, and I totally respect the man. No one in our current administration is trying to bring back "slavery" or increase "racism", Bush just wants to get rid of AA. Why is that you believe our current adminstration is so corrupt, perhaps, you ought to read the Wall Street Journal sometime..not the New York Times. Wasn't it a little bit extreme to say they want to make this perfect white male race or whatever.

How is honoring/fighting for ones country idiotic. Support your troops.

Also anyone must prove themselves when they walk in a room. It's not like bada boom everyone respects you. Perhaps, maybe people just don't like you as a person, regardless of your color. I know alot of white kids, that get •••• all the time, just b/c people don't like them (because they're really nerdy etc. etc.) Well basically nerdy people in general that are not very outgoing. I'm just sick of hearing that this racist B.S. still occurs, so I really would like to know where you live? Still the racism that has occured in your life seems quite ambigious and perhaps its all a manifestation of the mind, since you hate the white male, you think they hate you, which may not be true at all.

About the Counselor, I dislike guidance counselors in general..They're all cuckoo and everyone knows this. You can get much better guidance on these message boards/on the internet. I wouldn't worry about this too much. Besides if she/he is biased, does it even matter?

By May_1 (May_1) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 09:03 pm: Edit

This is pointless. I specifically said that I do NOT hate white males. The word "nigger" is very different and has far more negative connotations than the word cracker. And I mean this in the best way, but if you're not a minority I doubt you experience many of the looks that I speak of. I live in a suburb of Los Angeles, if you must know.

I wasn't referring to fighting for the United States, but rather of your ignorance in stating that I hate the white male ande don't give a **** for this country.

When I mean prove myself, I am refering to the condescension that I receive from many of my peers...that is, until I blow then awayb with my brilliance and my wit! (j/k OK, my ego's getting to me now.) Sure they like me, they just don't think I'm their intellectual equal.

Look, racism and prejudice is alive and well. There's not really any point in trying to convince you or to continue this debate. Either you have experienced it or you haven't.

Just to get back to the original point of the entire thread, I want to say that I am not a proponent of AA as it is currently designed, but I don't like when people exaggerate the effects of the system.

By Rowan (Rowan) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 09:17 pm: Edit

I think we're approaching a 'prove it' society, if we aren't already dead in the center of one. This can be good, but this can be bad.

On the plus side, it means people have a chance to prove their worth and their qualifications rather than being looked at once on paper and either accepted or rejected (this goes as much for the working world as for the school parts of it).

On the negative side, there are always people who are going to be 'old fashioned' about things and go by the standards anyway. It is impossible to escape this stuff entirely; it's not going to happen while we still insist on calling each other specific things and insisting that we need to help each other because their race is detrimental (which, granted, it may be in some places).

Personally, I think the 'prove it' system has potential. People won't be eliminated on the basis of factors they really can't control, but on their proven excellence, their potential to succeed.

Or something cheesy like that.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

okay, i know this has NOTHING to do with education or educational opportunities, but i've got a question for Sirmoreau: you stated above that most of your friends are black; out of sheer curiosity, i would like to know if you've ever dated a black person, and if not, would/could you? if no, why wouldn't you? is there a difference in having black friends and actually dating a black person for you? i'm just curious....

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

incidently, folks, the idea of having to be "qualified" as far as a college education is concerned is a bunch of rubbish- ANYONE can succeed in college by working HARD, whether or not you're a genius, and regardless of whether you were an academic standout in high school. if you give those who are "qualified" (i.e. those with high school diplomas) a chance to prove themselves in college without requiring a certain amount of points on the monkey SAT or monkey ACT exams, and barring all other hinderances (financial ones included), you'll see a considerable amount of people from all races and walks of life make it through college. i know of several friends from my high school days who nearly flunked out of school at that time, and who now have good, sophisticated degrees in the sciences and/or mathematics and have done quite well as a result of their efforts in college. i don't care what anyone says- with the exception of GRE subject tests (for example in mathematics or physics), all those standardized tests are designed to do is divide the country into social classes based primarily on ethnicity. that's it in a nutshell. it's not about being qualified, and it has nothing to do with measuring your intelligence.

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 03:08 pm: Edit

"Racism does exsist to a certain extent, such as name calling - but outside of that it does not really exsist"
"But even in Southern California racism does not really exist"

that has to be the most ingnorant statement I have read on this board. Now racism is a figment of the imagination? Please! Now, I bet you haven't told you black friends that you believe that racism doesn't exist and it is in their heads. That is the sort of thing that can only be said safely on an anonymous message board. Being in San Francisco, in city that in no way resembles where the majority of black Americans live, I guess it is easy for you to convince yourself of that lie. Even so, I went to college with a few people from the southern california (San Diego and a couple of small Hispanic towns)and the I am sure they would be interested in hearing your account of their racism free community.
You have never been to the real south,southern Georgia, here people live completely segregated lives, where black kids still attend segregated and inferior schools and if a black person strolled into the wrong part of town, he would be greeted with more than a "LOOK". In the small town where I was born, black people can still "disappear" when they get out of line.
So...just because you haven't see any racism first hand, don't insult people by denying that it exists.
And please-I am so sick of people thinking that having black friends justifies their opinion!" If I read one more statement that beings with
"I have black friends and..." or "Most of my friends are black so..." I am going to lose my lunch! In no way does having a black friend make your statement any more or less true, so stop counting your black friends/acquaintances/lunch ladies and find another way to state your point!

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 06:25 pm: Edit

I commend all of the aforementioned statements. I live on the Texas-Mexico border, so racism is alive and kicking in my neck of the woods. The school systems in this state are execellent exemplifications of racism and nativism at their finests; demarginalized school districts according to social class, tracking and steering programs inculcated in each underpriviledged district, just to name a few 'institutionalized' forms. Tacit consent of these programs on the behalf of any authority is just as threatening, if not more, than overt demonstrations of racism. But then again, i'm just tired of people saying, "there is no racism anymore."

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 07:45 pm: Edit

"You have never been to the real south,southern Georgia, here people live completely segregated lives, where black kids still attend segregated and inferior schools and if a black person strolled into the wrong part of town, he would be greeted with more than a "LOOK"."

Would a white person be welcomed in certain areas with a black majority? Nope. Why is this not also considered racism?

I agree that there is racism alive and well in this country and any other in the world. However, it is not a one way street. Groups, whether racial or otherwise, will by nature be prejudiced against other groups.

If you truly believe AA is necessary to help those with low socioeconomic status and poor schools, why not award AA based on that rather than race? Roughly equal numbers of whites are in those conditions as minorities, granted the minorities have higher percentages. If you still believe it should be done on the basis of race, YOU are racist against whites. You can't stereotype all whites as rich and all minorities as poor.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 08:25 pm: Edit

L Wonder, you're stupid - and ignorant. Have you heard of Oakland, California? I generalized san francisco as the bay area (there is still a large percantage of blacks in san francisco, the tenderloin). People need to learn tolerance, furthermore, realize racism only exsists in small percantages across the United States. I live in a mostly white area - kids are aware and are def. not racist. Racism exsists in all countries, you must realize this, America is not the route of all evil and on a comparative scale its a great place to be. By stating you have friends of the black race shows you I am not ignorant and believe in social equality. You live in racistville U.S.A. appearently "L wonder" the rest of the united states (LARGE LARGE majority) is not like that, especially in California. Infact, the other day I heard about this KKK member thats life was saved by a black woman, thats pretty powerful •••• right there - because he at one point hated black people. Honestly, my great grandfather was in the KKK, and just two generations down the road, you'll find me - i'm completely tolerant. This just goes to show you how much America has changed and there is a bright future for diversity, but AA has nothing to do with it. Check out Chim-Chims comments. How many racist crimes are there a year? VERY few. I don't know what kind of crazy racist super nazi land this is L wonder, but perhaps your opinion of racism is somewhat biased based on the location you live, schools not segregated - what perc. of schools in the U.S. do you think are not segregated? Less than 1 percent for sure. Perhaps you're the ignorant one. Who said anything about Lunch Ladies? that was the must ignorant comment i've ever seen on this board, you're stereotyping..you are such a hypocrite. If you feel so strongly about racism, go deal with it, make the youth of America be aware, but don't give me this bullcrap. Have fun tossing your lunch.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

white rural kids from Iowa, Nebraska and from other areas in the midwest DO receive affirmative action- they are recruited by schools that do not have a large number of students from these areas, and they receive their "affirmative action" points for being from these sparsely populated rural areas, just as blacks receive their points for being black. as for the comparison of a white person seeking acceptance in a predominately black area: it's not even very likely that this situation would occur too often, since whites have been trying to distance themselves from blacks ever since the end of legal segregation in housing and real estate (how do you think the idea of suburbs came about???). however, i do know of a case in which the white hostility towards a black family "moving into the neighborhood" turned out to be quite lucrative: the guy was a black orthodontist and decided to purchase a home for his family in one of the more exclusive parts of the Highland Park area of Dallas, Texas. instead of lynching the guy, the local neighborhood group got together and offered him a very generous amount of cash to NOT purchase that house and move into the neighborhood! i don't know if he took them up on the offer, but it sure was a nice gesture- a lot better than lynching!

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 08:46 pm: Edit

oh, and i think i may have to agree with sirmoreau on california- it's probably not very similar to Texas, or most other southern states with regards to racial problems. from what i've heard from older people, Texas is the worst state in the union when it comes to racial crap.

By Almostdone (Almostdone) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 09:01 pm: Edit

just mentioning - i recently heard that in georgia this year one school had RETURNED to holding to separate proms, one that is "whites only" and another that is for all races. last year it was considered a pioneer in the area for holding a mixed prom! shocked me...(i live in NY)...so i guess it really is still deeply rooted in some areas, even though it is getting a lot better overall.

By Intergamer (Intergamer) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Chemos makes valid points, but is incorrect in one thing. Affirmative Action does not help those who were misfortunate at an early age. Those best poised to take advantage of AA are those who do not need it. We should be improving our elementary schools, so everyone has that equal opportunity early, instead of quickly being drawn into a blue-collar life.

By Sirmoreau (Sirmoreau) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 01:06 am: Edit

Union eh?

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 02:21 am: Edit

Intergamer: you are absolutely correct in saying that we should improve our schools. this is the bottom line, and once this is finally accomplished, everyone will be able to compete on the same level, without affirmative action being implemented. however, since politicians use the issue of education only for the purposes of getting votes and have never acted on their promises in this regard, it won't happen- bringing about equality in education would pose a serious threat to the american establishment, and that is why our school system is set up the way it is. the very same approach was implemented in a much less subtle manner during slavery and with women in the past- both of these groups were denied access to education.

Almostdone: i also read that article on proms in Georgia, and all i could do was sit in front of my computer with my mouth wide open! i'm from Texas, and i've never even heard of something like that happening in schools in this state. sure, the fraternities and sororities were segregated at my university (the white ones were part of the Interfraternal Council, the black ones were in the Greek Council), but i have NEVER heard of segregated proms being held after the mid seventies- that's just WAY out there! i'm not sure if it was that school or another one, but after having held the first "integrated" prom and having fun together, both sides seem to have made the decision to return to segregated proms the following year. that's pretty sad when young people like that espouse such views.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

hey, here's an interesting article for all of you supporters of justice and equality for all races, since affirmative action is unconstitutional and unfair:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2077920/

it's from January of this year, but it's pretty interesting....

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Sirmoreau - so I am ignorant because I don't agree with you? At least I can make a statement without resorting to name calling-(I hope you are a teenager-if not, I feel very, VERY,sorry for you) And as for your tolerance, judging by your increasingly volitile responses, I wouldn't call you tolerant of anything, including race and opinions that differ from your own.
YOU are the idiot for insisting that racism doesn't exist, and if it does, it is only in small numbers. Your posts only reaffirms everything that I said in mine. Deny it until you pass out, but racism IS real. Don't think because it doesn't happen in your neighborhood or you don't see it everyday on the 6 o'clock news that racist acts are "rare".
Of course I know that other countries have racism, but to compare their racism to ours is stupid unless you compare it to countries with a similar heterogeneous foundation,like latin american countries and maybe Australia. On of my friends from San Diego asked a Russian exchange student in her high school if they had a problem with racism in his country. He said "um, not really. Everyone is Russian." So, don't go comparing apples and oranges.
The difference between American and other places is that we have been touting ourselves as the land of the free and equal since day one and it has been anything but that for many people. Because of that, people expect more here.
I don't think that you are a racist, but you are EXTREMELY ignorant about the experience of minorities in this country and you refuse to at least acknowledge that you might be wrong. That makes you more dangerous than than your Klan ancestors.
And if you respond, try to do it without the potty mouth. It doesn't look good on you.

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Oh, I my home town (not where I grew up but where my family lives) is very close to where that segregated prom was held. It doesn't look at all like what people would think (like hicksville or something). Its just the attitudes of the people living there are kind of warped. People just don't WANT things to change. From what I heard, a group of white students decided to hold a whites only prom again, but the other prom (held on a nearby college campus)was still open to everyone.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 02:31 pm: Edit

oh, okay- that's fair, i guess- you can't change personal opinions.

the question of interracial relationships is a true lithmus test, if you want to find out just how tolerant someone is with regards to other races. i've known very many people who disguise their inbred racism by counting off the various "friends" of color they have. you always hear, "i'm not racist- my best friend in high school was black!", or "come on, man- i grew up with blacks living two blocks away- i'm not racist!". but pose the question of interracial dating to these people, and they choke up, because this is the one issue with which they have to face up to being racist. i've really had a lot of good friends who were otherwise very genuine and sincere, and who considered themselves "not racist" and who would do anything for me- but whenever we've talked about interracial dating, you could feel them growing very uncomfortable and wanting to change the conversation as quickly as possible. many of them even justified their views on interracial dating with passages from the bible!!! i don't know what on earth (or in heaven for that matter) christian doctrine has to do with the forbidding of interracial relationships, but there must be something to it- afterall, Bob Jones Christian University enforced a firm policy barring interracial relationships among its students- up until the day Bush spoke at the university and their policy came out in the open for all to see. funny how they reversed their interpretation of christian doctrine in a matter of a couple of days! does anyone know if interracial dating is sinful and a disgrace to God???

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Andromeda, where in Texas are you from and where did you go to school?

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

i'm from san antonio- i did my undergraduate work at Texas Tech. where are you headed off to this fall, Primadonna?

By Greenmoo04 (Greenmoo04) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 01:06 am: Edit

Racism exists EVERYWHERE in everyone. You can't erase it. No matter how tolerant you are, you have some prejudices and preconceptions about other people based on their appearance. Have you ever visited the Musuem of Tolerance in LA? You should; you'd learn a lot about racism and discrimination.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 01:38 am: Edit

well, there's certainly no disputing that- racism is definitely a human ailment, and i know i would really enjoy visiting that museum in LA; however, i think the discussions here revolving around affirmative action are dealing more with systematic, covert racism than they are with petty, run-of-the-mill racism between specific individuals on a daily basis, or the racism that prevents most people from being open to interracial relationships. i think the racism behind these issues is much more complex and intense than what we experience when we hear racially derogatory terms, or acutally see people be mistreated because of racism. it takes a much keener sense of smell to sniff out and recognize the racism powering anti-affirmative action legislation and other measures covertly designed to hinder certain groups in society from progressing. lawmakers of course can't just come out in the open with discriminatory laws which the general public would immediately recognize as such; they have to be subtle, gradual, and in line with constitutional requirements on the surface.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Wow, I'm from San Antonio as well! I'm going to Northwestern in september, and graduating tomorrow at the alamodome (we won a raffle contest). I went to a debate tournament at Tech last year--nifty stadium...what brings you to this discussion board?? (I'm originally from méxico but lived in N.Laredo for a while, so that may explain the texas-mexico border comment)

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

that is a HUGE coincidence! what high school are you graduating from? Northwestern is an awesome school, be glad that you are headed there this fall- i'm sure the next four years of your life will be absolutely thrilling and unforgettable. i'm headed back to start my PhD in the fall of 2004, and i just happened to stumble accross this website and saw that there were some pretty interesting discussions going on, so i chimed in! i really enjoyed my experience at Tech, don't get me wrong- however i was much younger and quite immature at that time, and, in terms of academics, i would definitely choose another school if i had my undergraduate studies to do all over again. i followed a favorite cousin of mine there at that time- he was in AFROTC and training to become a pilot, and i just KNEW that was for me as well, so i chose Tech! it is really a fun, fun school and i think Tech and west texas in general taught me a lot of things about life and people that i wouldn't have learned going to a more sophisticated, academic oriented school.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:30 pm: Edit

here's another article for all those sceptics of affirmative action:

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 07:23 pm: Edit

That's interesting, a friend of mine is going to Tech this fall as well...an advertising major I believe...Yeah, I think my upbringing (educationally, both in Mexico and the States) has certainly influenced me in multiple ways, and I find myself prepared for the challanges of a school like NU. There is nothing like a big city (im from mexico city) to teach you about the real world. Well, I stumbled across this thread of course because of the subject matter, but also because I'll be a political science/social policy major at NU and I always like to know what other people think about programs like AA and so forth. My USHistory teacher really inspired me to look into that study; he taught American History with an emphasis in African American studies...definetly taught me a lot.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 12:27 am: Edit

Great link. That's what AA is all about. Placing the burden of my white guilt on other people.

No one is forcing you to give up your civil rights not be judged upon your race. Hell, I'm all for Affirmative Action and reparations. As long as the people who propose it also bear the burden of those programs. So, please, stop f**king with my civil rights and seek professional help for your white guilt.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 12:34 am: Edit

Your white guy sounds exactly like Professor James McPherson. Heh heh

http://chronwatch.com/featured/contentDisplay.asp?aid=2407

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 02:50 am: Edit

that's a really good article- especially the following point:

"What most blacks need is--first of all--the kind and quality of education that they do not get in most ghetto schools."

that's it in a nutshell! why do you think we have "ghetto schools"? what kind of burdens are you talking about?

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 08:50 am: Edit

Heh, ghetto schools kids. Affirmative Action isn't about helping ghetto school kids. You know it. I know it. Let's just cut the BS, ok?

"Ghetto school" kids won't suffer if Affirmative Action is eliminated. They would still get 20 admissions points under the "disadvantaged student" discriminator.

The question we should be asking ourselves is why can't rich and middle class blacks compete with the rest of us? Why do rich/middle class blacks need the 20 Affirmative Action/Social Welfare points? It would serve the whole AA debate a lot better if we were honest about who AA truly helps. So, please, stop it with the "AA helping ghetto kids" fertilizer.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 09:18 am: Edit

i didn't say that- it was in the article you posted. the point is that the level of education needs to be the same in ALL schools, even in ghetto schools. then you'll begin to see all those "unqualified" blacks excel just as do all others who have had access to decent schools and education all along. the only case in which affirmative action works for blacks in the manner you think it does is in the correctional system. i'm middle class as well and i got into my university because i graduated in the top 10% of my class. if i earned 20 social welfare points for being a black person, i certainly wasn't aware of it! does this mean that all the blacks who are enrolled in universities are only there because of affirmative action, while middle class/wealthy whites worked hard to get in and only were accepted on pure merit?

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 09:32 am: Edit

Have you ever been in a ghetto school? The majority of the reform needs to come from the students.

Top 10%? What is that? Texas? As much as I disagree with the percentage plans, I am glad it actually gives blacks something meritorious to point to for being admitted, rather than the Ralph Wiggimeque "I got in because I provide diversity!" garbage. Of all the proxies we tortuously tried to find to replace race in admissions (ie: being poor, being disadvantaged, SAT II, etc), the percentage plans came closest. Of course, graduate schools do not have this option and placing all considerations on class rank often fail to capture who is most qualified.

ALL middle class/rich blacks receive extreme extra consideration (ie: 20 admissions points) at all top universities except those in California, Washington, Texas, Georgia and Florida.
10% of the states have ended the systematic violation of their citizens' civil rights. Hopefully, we will be at 100% soon.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:39 am: Edit

well, as a matter of fact, it is texas, and that was a long time ago. whether or not that is aimed at getting blacks into colleges, i don't know- but it gets whites who are in the top 10% of their class in just as well. in fact, quite a few white students at my high school who had neither the grades nor the test scores that i had still got in on this rule as well, because they, too were in the top 10% of the class, even though their rankings were below mine in terms of grades and test scores. So if you examine this situation, it was really those white students that were less qualified than i was, yet they were still admitted under this rule. so how ya like them beans for affirmative action? there is NO mention of racial background in such a policy, is there? or maybe i've misunderstood something... i got into a few other schools outside of texas as well, and i KNOW being black had nothing to do with it, because i have always checked the box for "caucasian" just to be on the safe side....but you're right about that rule- it's ridiculous- i say admit everyone who has graduated high school, and give them all a chance to prove themselves at college level work- let the universities do their job in weeding those out who truly are not qualified, instead of conducting a pre-screening process by the use of monkey tests such as the SAT's. you speak of systematic violation of citizen's civil rights??????? when and on what grounds have your (or anyone elses' in your family or circle of friends)civil rights been systematically violated? just a very short time ago, i wouldn't have been able to vote in this country, and just because of my skin color- nor would i have been allowed to live in certain areas (which is still much too often the case), eat in certain restaurants, or even use certain bathrooms. when i chose to pledge a "white" fraternity at university, i was eventually told during the last days of rush week that "it's just not time for us to admit blacks- you'll have to pledge a black fraternity." and before you tell me that the same thing would happen to a white person interested in one of the "black" fraternities on campus, forget it- the 3 black fraternities that existed all had a considerable amount of white students among their members. small as they were, they were simply interested in getting as many members as possible, and so they couldn't afford to discriminate whenever someone from another race came along and showed interest in the fraternity. so i'm just curious- when has ANYTHING of this magnitude ever affected you or the way you have chosen to live your life, solely because of your skin color?

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:48 am: Edit

and, yes- i agree with you on the fact that ghetto kids need some incentives. while most of the problems associated with such kids do stem from the home and their upbringing, schools are still very much responsible for providing them with good incentives and proper resources to learn and achieve in terms of academics. this means shaping the schools up and creating a favorable atmosphere for those kids to learn in, not offering school vouchers for snooty private schools through a lottery process, and simply leaving the schools in those areas to rot. this certainly would be an easy way out of this issue, and that is exactly what your president is advocating.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Yep. Oh and Andromeda, I went (feels really weird saying that..) to Communications Arts High School (graduated yesterday) which is at the Taft Campus...where do you hail from?

Allllll of that reminds me of Texas's steering/vocational-tracking system they implement in schools on our south side where a heavy, underachieving (academically) hispanic community is dominant; what gives legislators the right to continue with these limiting programs in this district and not it's wealthy counterpart? Has anyone even bothered to think that some student's performance and value on education is the way it is because due to the poor efforts of their schools? While sure, upbringing and other factors might contribute, you absolutely cannot disregard the quality of schooling.

By Ty310 (Ty310) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Adromeda, you're so idealistic. Perhaps a bit too much. You have to understand that schools aren't going to repair themselves overnight just as entire races aren't going to be healed of wounds overnight. Please understand that our race seems to have a sense of inferiority instilled not just by slavery, but also through segregation and the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. Affirmative action is a temporary solution to a larger problem. Our race needs a boost, we need to realize that we are just as capable and bright as anyone else. Someday, I hope that we will be able to attain diversity in universities without AA, but until that day comes, AA needs to be implemented.

By Ty310 (Ty310) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 06:49 pm: Edit

"ghetto kids", hmmm

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:00 pm: Edit

"Ghetto schools" probably do need to be improved, but other schools do also. I live in a school district that is 99% white. Now you're probably thinking...he's not from the ghetto, he must go to school in a palace and have the best education possible at the expense of the minorities in this country.

Nope....my school was built in 1916. Last year the roof collapsed in one of the rooms at night when no students were present. A lot of kids have the same textbooks as their parents did 20 years ago. Also, the teachers aren't of the highest quality.....most make only 20-25k/year. My English teacher has the reading level of a middle school kid, he can't pronounce most words with more than 2 syllables.

Let me use a quote from you primadonna:
"Has anyone even bothered to think that some student's performance and value on education is the way it is because due to the poor efforts of their schools? While sure, upbringing and other factors might contribute, you absolutely cannot disregard the quality of schooling. "

But of course...the quality of the school system is only considered detrimental when it affects minorities.

What it comes down to is the individual student's desire to learn. Any kid can do the homework the teacher assigns. If the teacher sucks, they can read the textbook on their own. It is not the responsibility of the schools to force the desire to learn into every child. For one, it's impossible. For two, people need to take control of their own lives.


If you think affirmative action is going to cure racism, you are dead wrong. Just look at the hostile feelings of many whites on the topic of affirmative action. Those hostile feelings can easily turn to racism, thus insuring that racism continues or even increases. The best way to "cure" racism, whether against whites or minorities, is to not treat them any differently based on their skin color.

As to the article on white privilege, it states that whites are automatically benefitted when being interviewed by other whites. Do you think whites should receive extra "points" when being interviewed by minorities? Or is it only racism when minorities are being hurt, not when whites are being discriminated against?

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

WOW! quite interesting, all of you- gotta get to work for now, but i'll reply later on this evening...

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

okay- i have ALWAYS said in each and every single one of my postings, that ALL schools need to be on the same, competitive level, so that of course would include your school as well, chim chim. WITHOUT bringing every school "up to par", standardized tests results will never have any significant validity, other than determining how well people take standardized tests, since not every kid would finish school on the same level. so the most important issue in this whole debate would be to create equal schooling for all kids in all schools. if this were to be done, you would all soon discover that even the kids in so-called "ghetto schools" would be knocking the top off of standardized tests. Bringing all schools up to the same level of competition means creating incentives for future teachers, which means providing good, competitive salaries, and attractive conditions. So, for example, if chim chim's school is falling apart, then that would mean pumping cash into the school (or the school district) to fix it up and create a favorable atmosphere for kids to learn and excel in. this would of course make it much more attractive for teachers in search of a position as well. again, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE FOR ALL SCHOOLS- if a school is operating "below par", then it should be brought up to a level with all other schools. this won't lower standards, it would just require that ALL schools satisfy the same educational standards. and if standardized testing is the primary tool with which future college students are to be chosen, then those tests need to be based on that same educational standard that the schools have- it is that simple. sure, this may be a pretty complex and expensive project- but if our government can blow loads of $$$$$$$ on ridiculous wars, then it surely should have enough $$$$ to invest in education, which is vital to every single person's welfare in this world. i don't care what anyone says about affirmative action being "reverse discriminatory" or unfair to whites- the sad state of affairs in many of this nation's public school systems today is a direct result of the effects of Jim Crow and "Separate but Equal" legislation passed by the very same government that we know today, and not too many moons ago, intent on keeping blacks as ingnorant as possible and seperated from the rest of society. when i read the arguments on this message board against affirmative action, you would think that whites have been enslaved and are living in absolute squalor, and all because of affirmative action. the issue of whites having somewhat of an automatic advantage in interviews with other whites probably boils down to human nature- i can almost guarantee you it would be the same if a black person were in that position. in fact, what if we were to turn the table completely around? what if we had a black president and a congress consisting of nearly all blacks, except for a handful of its members? would anyone feel that there would be no systematic discriminaton against non-blacks? back to the issue of education: i've lived in germany for a little over 12 years now, and this educational system seems to work just fine- although jews and other "non-aryan" people were systematically persecuted and prevented from achieving progress and education during W.W. II, there is absolutely no intention whatsoever of holding anyone back from education today. you go to school, you graduate, you go to university- no standardized testing, no hurdles to leap over, no hoops to jump through. that can be done here because schools are required, by law, to have the same educational standards accross the board. sure, the attrition rates may be higher than in the states, but at least everyone with a high school diploma gets a shot at a college education. the REAL tests are carried out using actual college level work, not with bogus admissions exams. if you flunk out, then you're out- but at least you will have gotten your chance to prove yourself. So, that would be a fair system, it wouldn't take race into account, and the overall level of education in the nation would improve considerably. this would be one method of eliminating a need for affirmative action, and it would work just as well for "underprivleged" whites if the most important and most powerful leaders of our country were black and were passing laws that promoted covert, systematic racism against whites! what about you guys? any ideas?

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 01:02 pm: Edit

I think that 10 percent plans don't work because they take away the college's ability to select students that really are qualified to to do the work at their college. At some schools with a population of really poor students, students can have a GPA's below 3.0 and still be in the top 10 percent of their class. Do those kids need to be in college with people who graduated in the top 10% from competitive high schools?

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 01:19 pm: Edit

eh, i never asserted that affirmative action was going to "cure" racism--nothing will. That's a separate issue.

I simply think that both elements, those of student iniative and schooling quality (or what have you) are equally important in producing better things from our status quo as we speak.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

well, i never gave the 10% plan too much thought, because i wasn't limited to just those universities when i sent out my applications. i still say give everyone a shot at it who has graduated high school, and leave it up to colleges to eliminate those who are not qualified after they have failed at actual college level work; a lot of pretty bright kids go through school not being challenged, and so they are unmotivated- grades and testing will fail to detect the true talent of such students. besides, if you really work at it, you can actually study for a standardized test and do well on it- i know, because i studied for mine when i was applying to colleges, and i improved my score the second time by nearly 500 points. then there are others who simply may not decide to get serious about their studies until late in the game. again, grades and test scores for these kinds of kids will tell you absolutely NOTHING about what they are truly capable of in an academic capacity. so i say let them into our public colleges, and let them flunk right out again as well if they can't do the work. but if they're not given a chance because of a bad test result or because of crummy grades, no one will ever know whether they could've succeeded in college or not. leave the high selectivity up to the private schools- that's what they are there for.

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Letting all kids into college automatically wouldn't really help the lower-class kids who couldn't afford it anyway. It would mostly help the lazy and/or stupid kids from middle to uppper class families.

If you're proposing that the first semester is free for everyone, that would waste a HUGE amount of money.

Correct me if I'm wrong but....if someone doesn't have the funds or grades to enter college, can't they enroll in the military for 3 or 4 years and then enter college? I know if I couldn't afford college, I would join the military and then go to college rather than flipping burgers the rest of my life.

By L_Wonder (L_Wonder) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

There are major strings attached to the military thing. I know people who have been "tricked" into signing up under false pretenses (job and base assignments). In high school my mom made me take that ASVAB )Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery test) and I was stalked by various branches of the military for 2 years! People would show up at my house a year after I was already in college.
I think that what Andromeda is proposing already happens at the local college level. I think that letting people just sign up for 4 year colleges isn't the best thing, but it is relatively cheap to take classes at a junior college. My mom didn't get to go to college, and after my siblings and I went off to school, she started taking classes at our community college. She loves it, and now she wants to transfer to a 4 year college. She never could have jumped into a big university, but after 2 years on community college she is prepared to challenge herself with more classes. Go mom!

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I think everybody has to take the ASVAB now, I'm not sure but everyone in my high school had to anyways.

If you're getting bothered overly by the military, the easiest way is to just say you have asthma or something like that.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:18 pm: Edit

now, i don't know anything about the military holding to its promises of paying for college- i've known some people who've joined solely for that purpose, and i think they actually did get some kind of funding out of it. though i am no true fan of the military (i hate guns and loud explosions), i think it can offer valuable training, discipline and experience, if you can get in and back out between wars. i'd much rather have my tax dollars (or, in my case- my tax eurodollars) go to kids who want to give college a go, but don't have the financial means, than to fund some war; the liklihood of a solid return on investment from that kid is significantly higher than the r.o.i. from some bogus war effort. by the way- i can't remember ever having to take the ASVAB- is that required in your schools these days?

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

andromeda, not to get you off on a tangent, what school did you go to here in SA, and what kinds of things were you involved in at school?

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 07:12 am: Edit

oh, sorry about that- i think you had asked before, and i forgot to tell you. i went to St. Gerards. i was in all the usual things (NHS, FBLA, 4-H, class president)- and i hosted a japanese exchange student and went to japan the following year to stay with my host brother and his family in Sapporo. other than that, i played varsity tennis and basketball and took all of the advanced courses that were offered, particularly in math, chemistry and physics. i'm pretty sure i've left off a couple of activities (i graduated way back in 1984!), but the ones i've listed were the main ones that i can recall. i had the choice between St. Gerards or Central Catholic (both schools offered me scholarships coming out of junior high), and i ended up choosing St. Gerards because of the proximity to my home at that time. what about you, Primadonna? what activities are you involved in? have you had a chance to travel extensively?

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

The typical NHS, SNHS, EHS, Forensics (debate/theatre) Int.Languages Club, Latin Swing dancing, tae kwon do, AIDS education, and film productions among other things here and there. I've traveled to many places in latin america and "lived" in mexico city, hermosillo, sao paolo and bogota...but my other travel extends to a few weeks in paris and london. So you went to a private school, that's interesting because the first thing my mom did when she moved us here was remove us from that system all together...but then private schooling institutions are different everywhere, I suppose. I always wondered what it would have been like to continue in a private though. anyways, just curious!

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:14 pm: Edit

it was okay; my school certainly wasn't one of those wealthy prep schools, and it survived on donations from here and there. Central Catholic is definitely more of a prep school, but, as i mentioned before, SGH was in walking distance of my home, so i chose it instead. my parents didn't want me going to the public schools in our area, and there was no way i was going to be able to attend Churchill, Marshall, or Alamo Heights, since we didn't live out in those districts. so it was private school for me! if i could do it all over again, i would choose Central Catholic, or go to one of the public schools- they had many more teachers and a considerable amount of resources that we didn't have, even if the difference between those in my area and schools like Alamo Heights was like day and night. also, the level of varsity athletics was much more intense in the public schools, and i probably would've been able to have played division one college basketball, had i competed in varsity sports in the public schools from day one.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Oh, and London is a fantastic city!!! if i could choose any city in the world to live in, i would definitely choose London!

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Yeah I really enjoyed London for some reason...actually I just enjoy large cities hehe. Yeah all those schools remain the way they are; preppy yet resourceful as public schools. Churchill still has an amazing forensics department although...quantity does not equal quality as we small school types like to say...Anyways it is pretty interesting. I chose Comm.Arts because of the resources available, the small school nature etc...so hopefully I'm prepared for college..

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

London is really incredible- the thing i like most about it are the museums- in fact, i think they're all free now, and that is definitely worth its weight in gold! my employer was about to send me there for a 3 year stint a couple of years back, and i would've been right in the heart of the banking district with a really nice pad to boot. however, as i didn't yet have my european green card at that time, it was a painfully complicated and buerocratic ordeal, and i ended up choosing to remain in germany. anyway, i really think succeeding in college involves about 80% hard work- i think ANYBODY can do the work, but you have to know that they mean business. not to discredit all of those high achievers on this board, but if you just work hard at it, you can make it through, and you don't need to have a 200 IQ to achieve this. all you have to do is go to class, ask questions (the most important thing), and learn to study. it's that simple! of course if you've gone to a high school that has already put you through the paces, then you'll have no problems at all adjusting.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 12:15 am: Edit

frankly i'm not concerned with the rigor of classes, because as you mention, 80% of that academic success is diligence...regurgitation of facts, producing qualitative papers I can do. What i really want to get out of college is a discovery of talent and interest, something my parents seem to have already written out for me and not vice versa. I know how to study and how to find all those answers...and I'm looking for more experiences with stressful jobs and people, and I know that if I get involved with just the right amount of "real world" AND of course, college life experience, then i'm set. But modesty aside, yeah, i'm really looking foward to it.

By Rcambrai (Rcambrai) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 07:01 am: Edit

If my name was Jose Rodriguez, could you imagine how many companies would throw my resume in the trash without reading it.....?That's discrimination......If only people could change their perception of hispanics being gardener, cooks ....you can only get there by promoting and accepting "qualified" candidates. Perception would change as soon as you see hispanics in positions of power

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 01:09 pm: Edit

wow, those stereotypes are slightly different than the ones for blacks, but it's basically the same principle. i know how you feel- i've about had it as well with being cast into the same boat with all the other rappers, "gangstas", "homies", "playaz", drug dealers, so-called "ministers", and the millions of wanna-be "NBA superstars" with an incredible arsenal of gold chains to place around the neck. if fewer stereotypes were perpetuated in the media, things would certainly be much better on the whole. stereotypes have far reaching effects, and primarily because of the media's role in providing entertainment and sensational journalism in order to sell its stories and/or receive glowing ratings, they continue to be imbedded in people's heads all over the world.

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

you know what sucks is that latinos on a whole are regarded as "the sleeping giant"...I went to all sorts of Latino Youth Leadership seminars in high school and all I learned was "be a good student, don't get pregnant, and marry a good husband"--YES! In the 21 Century! It's just overwhelmingly ridiculous. There are many small latino businesses and entrepeneurial success stories but few are in Business Magazine, etc. But now, because I don't want to strike up any kind of argumentation with anyone and because I don't mean to offend, that's all I'll say on that subject ;)

By Andrew05 (Andrew05) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Afirmative action is a joke. In a country that prides itself on emphasizing the importance of equality, I can't believe that afirmative action is necessary. I say its not fair if a minority gets accepted over a better qualified white male. It just makes no sense these days. Face it we are not in the 50s anymore, segregation is gone, and Rosa Parks is damn near dead! Get over it! Minorities don't exist anymore and I will be P.O.ed if i get rejected from a college because they needed to "balance" the class! Maybe a system as unethical as this one would be necessary in Iraq, but not here, its just not right.

By Covalentbond007 (Covalentbond007) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

1. "The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."

2. "No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

By Deepak (Deepak) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 10:26 pm: Edit

And the exact opposite is happening with A.A. Covalentbond007, Good point! I for one am not for AA

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 10:36 am: Edit

....aaahhhhh, and there it is, proof that there is no more discrimination, and that there shall be no more discrimination- at least not in anything having to do with the public sector. now THAT is justice! as beautiful and as noble as such statements are, you'll also find them in every "non-discriminatory acceptance/hiring policy" of every college and university, with the exception of maybe Bob Jones (at least prior to Bush's appearance there to drum up more right wing votes). how do you guys know that your rejection from this or that college was because they decided to admit a black or hispanic instead of admitting you with your stellar test scores and grades? do they actually state this as a fact in rejection letters? if any one of you can produce such a letter, that would certainly be incriminating evidence that AA indeed places you at a significant disadvantage when it comes to accessing higher education. or are you just assuming that, because you didn't make it and were of course expecting to be a shoe-in, it can only be affirmative action which has hindered your progress? oh well. at any rate, i wish all of you here much success in getting into whatever schools you are planning to attend- do well, and don't do so much right at the beginning that you get burned out. and if the probability of being rejected due to affirmative action policies is robbing you of your sleep at night, then list yourself as a minority- it can't hurt, and it's probably not too big of a deal- there are lots of hispanics and blacks out there who appear to be white at first glance- Mariah Carey, Jason Kidd, and Carol Channing, to name just a select few. after all, an admissions committee can't prove that you are NOT black or hispanic, so i would go for it if i were you guys. just make sure that doesn't become a permanent part of your records, and be sure to resume marking yourselves as white after you've been admitted- it'll come in handy later on. i have always listed myself as white on all types of applications, and, except for one case in which i was questioned about it (they obviously used my social security number to get some more information on my person), nothing has ever happened, and i've been able to do whatever. and you're right- the people in Iraq could really use some affirmative action- and the best AA they and the rest of the middle east could possibly ever hope to receive would be an extremely swift and irrevocable withdrawl of american and other western nations from those areas and from their political and business affairs. have a great summer and good luck in the fall!

By Primadonna (Primadonna) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

lmao...yeah thats one thing I hate about affirmative action, the intensity of the backlash..

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

"how do you guys know that your rejection from this or that college was because they decided to admit a black or hispanic instead of admitting you with your stellar test scores and grades? do they actually state this as a fact in rejection letters? if any one of you can produce such a letter, that would certainly be incriminating evidence that AA indeed places you at a significant disadvantage when it comes to accessing higher education. or are you just assuming that, because you didn't make it and were of course expecting to be a shoe-in, it can only be affirmative action which has hindered your progress?"

It would be impossible to know that someone was rejected solely due to AA, just like it would be impossible to know if someone was rejected due to someone being racist against a certain group, such as blacks.

The point is not that all whites/Asians who are rejected are rejected because of AA. But, some are rejected due to AA. If you look at a college's average SAT scores/GPA and the URM scores are lower, it's a fact that some statistically more qualified asians and whites were rejected.

If AA didn't exist people could just accept that they were rejected in favor of a more qualified applicant. Now people can just blame AA for their rejection, it's a lot easier than blaming one's self. In many cases it is the applicants fault, but you can't deny that many more qualified whites/asians are rejected in lieu of minorities.

The main point is....under AA it's impossible to know that they weren't rejected simply due to discriminatory AA policies.

By Andromeda65 (Andromeda65) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 02:48 pm: Edit

that's true, chim chim- there really is no way to determine whether you've become a victim of AA or "normal" racism, unless it's stipulated in that dreaded rejection letter. one measure would be to look at the experiences of your peers who are also applying to colleges, and see what kind of responses they are getting. are they being turned down as well across the board? perhaps mixed results, with some getting accepted and some not? what about the minority kids in your school? are they all shipping off to Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Penn, while you and your other non-minority friends are hoping to be admitted to the local state universities? one of the things i think is also playing a significant role in this whole admissions process is the level of competition. i know that when i applied to schools back in the eighties, the competition wasn't nearly as intense as it is now. particularly at a time when the economy is rotten to the core, you've got a "run on the colleges" going on, even a considerable amount of people losing jobs and heading back to school. if you're just about to graduate high school and head for college, chances are you'll have a really hard time competing with returning students that have been in the "real" world for some time and now wish to continue their studies, because they are normally considered to be more mature and experienced and somewhat settled. and i'm sure that has resulted in colleges raising the admissions bar significantly. maybe a few years back, pretty good test scores and good grades would've done the trick; now you're talking perfect test scores and amazing grades, along with "EC's", as you guys call them, and a whole bunch of other things to make your application competitive. so if AA is affecting your chances of admission at a time like this, chances are the effects are so minimal that they are negligible. competition is quite keen, and your time would be better spent concentrating on aspects and qualities of your application packet that will distinguish you from ALL other applicants, not just minorities. i would advise you guys to stay focused, consider viable alternatives, and simply think positively about being admitted to your top choices, particularly when writing essays. any negative thoughts you may be having will indirectly find their way into your essays, and admissions officers will sense this.

By Savoirfaire87 (Savoirfaire87) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit

i think one should be judged by the content of one's character, not the color of one's skin

By Chim_Chim (Chim_Chim) on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 06:43 pm: Edit

http://www.clubbeaux.com/archives/000580.html

This is a good article that deals partially with AA and why it's unfair to lower-middle class whites. Definitely worth reading if you have 10 minutes.

By Babouche (Babouche) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 10:39 am: Edit

Look guys.......Get real My last name is Rodriguez, how many people have thrown my resume without even looking at it after they saw my name. A study was conducted by MIT and resumes were sent to different companies in the Chicago area. Same background, different names......And guess what? all those spanish sounding names were never called for an interview.

So let's face it....hispanics are discrimated against in the labor market