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Has anyone on this message board made a final choice between UVA and William & Mary? What factors did you use in making the final decision? Daughter has keen interest in international studies. It looks like both schools have solid programs.

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 07:10 pm: Edit

Okay, I am a Virginia native so I will give my input.

Charlottesville and Williamsburg are both safe and pretty, yet boring Virginia towns.

UVA has a more picturesque campus and has really improved over the years. W&M has declined some, but is a steady choice especially given its history.

If your daughter was choosing law school or wanted to study writing or music, I'd say W&M.

But since she is not, I suggest UVA. Why? Because in international studies, there are more foreign students present, it's closer to DC but not TOO close, there are more foreign language choices...if you have more specific questions I can elaborate.

For a truer international experience, go with UVA.

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 06:46 am: Edit

Thanks for the feedback. We also live in VA. We were leaning a bit more towards W&M because of its smaller size, but didn't think about the increased foreign population at UVA (good point). Our thoughts are that she would have closer contact with professors and other students with similar interests. While law school may or may not be on be on the horizon, grad school is a definite. At this juncture, she is hoping for a career at the State Department or some other international agency. (Her first choice was American because of its location in DC and its internship opportunities, but the cost is more than we can bear,especially after sending two other daughters through college already. We are definitely among the middle class squeezed... good income but little saving/much debt). So we are left with acceptances from WM, UVA, and JMU (where her sisters went). She is stressing a bit, but at least she has some solid choices.

What do you know about the workload,etc. at either school... we want her to learn (and she has much intellectual curiosity) but would like a balanced environment. While we'd like her to work hard, we want her to have fun and we've heard from some people that WM is all work and no play.

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Actually, I would say both schools are fairly social. I have never attended degree programs at the schools, but know dozens who have. No one I know who went to either school flunked out from too much drinking (I can't say the same for friends who went to James Madison, VA Tech, VCU, Richmond, etc.) but did have a good deal of fun. W&M probably does lean more towards stuffiness and the nightly grind, which is one of the reasons I recommended UVA. She needs to have as many diverse experiences (not talking drugs or anything, don't worry!) as possible and W&M is largely a white school. Not that I'm saying they're racist, but Williamsburg is not the most diverse place in the state.

Everyone I know who went to UVA was absolutely thrilled they chose it. I've been up there visiting people when major recruiters for international studies and English students came by. W&M is NOT a bad school by any means and does get recruiters, but it's becoming more and more of a Hampton Roads area school than anything else. I hope this all made sense.

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 10:02 am: Edit

Thanks for the feedback... your commentary has already lead to more points of discussion in our family!

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

I don't understand the comment about law school or writing, favoring WM over UVa... UVa's law school is #6 in the country, WM's is #50. The creative writing program at UVa is #3, WM's is somewhere like #10 to #15. Those are actually strengths of UVa and as far as law, weaknesses of WM.

International studies -- I do agree that UVa has the stronger environment here because it is in close proximity to D.C. and has two to three times more international students.

Programs I would recommend at WM over UVa would be Music, Drama, Mathematics, and Chemistry. Most anything else is going to be stronger at UVa.

Also - UVa students seem to "work hard and play hard". WM students work even harder, but all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy...

By Mike (Mike) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 11:08 pm: Edit

WM also win hands down for Colonial American history.

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:31 am: Edit

Breeze, those rankings are total B.S.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:33 am: Edit

Lovewriting, you said William & Mary was better than UVa for Law.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/law/brief/lawrank_brief.php

The rankings just came out this week - UVa is #9 and William & Mary is #28. So they aren't #50, but they aren't exactly UVa in law, now are they? It's not a close comparison, as you can see.

You also said you'd choose William & Mary over Virginia for writing.

http://www.notwriting.com/best_creative_grad.pdf

In the last ranking, Virginia was ranked #4. William & Mary was not ranked in the top 43 (Hollins College was).

Care to restate your opinion about which school is better in Virginia to go to for law school or to study writing? At least do some research before giving advice, decisions this important should be based on fact. I will do my part to look up the exact rankings next time, as WM's law school is slightly better than I thought and their Writing program is much worse than I had thought as well. Neither compare to their equivalent at UVa, not by a long shot.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:37 am: Edit

Mike, I didn't include Colonial American History because it's so specialized... the History department overall at UVa is stronger than at WM, but specifically for Colonial American History (which is not a major per se), that would indeed be stronger at William & Mary (I'm sure they have the #1 program in the nation/world!)

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 01:49 pm: Edit

I think everyone is forgetting that rankings are only a guide....and the radical changes from year to year in the rankings lead me to suspect that they are not a reliable. I certainly would never rely solely on these rankings to make such an important decision! What seems better to one student is not necessarily better for another. Personal personal goals and learning styles need to be matched with those of the institution.

We are much impressed by the small classes at William and Mary, and the relationships that seem to flower as a result of these smaller class sizes. The professors there seem to be very committed to teaching... we did not get that feeling at UVA. Bigger does not mean better. For an undergraduate degree, smaller may actually be better, especially for students who intend to continue their studies at the graduate level... that's where a bigger university makes sense!

BTW, UVA is not any closer to DC than is William and Mary.

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Breeze, you are just PLAIN RUDE! I do read the rankings, and they're B.S. ALSO, the young lady in question isn't even going into writing or law. I stand with my opinion, because it is based on being a native Virginian, being around people and faculty from BOTH schools, being around BOTH campuses, and talking to lawyers, writers, and politicians over the years. I do not appreciate you being so rude to me. Your profile has the word CAVALIER in it. My view is totally unbiased. Can you say the same?

I figure, people can read the rankings for themselves. Someone asked a question and I offered real life perception. You can disagree, but you didn't need to be such a snob about it, or yank out tired rankings to take me down.

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Huh. I got to DC in 2 hours from Charlottesville, five from Williamsburg. Miles wise, it's probably about the same, traffic wise is a WHOLE different story

By Breeze (Breeze) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Lovewriting, I don't mean to be rude to you... I do agree that also being a native Virginian, it is important to know students and faculty from both schools as I do as well. It might interest you to know that I was once a student of UVa (surprise!), so perhaps you're right on and I am biased. I have never attended William & Mary.

Mamamiles -- having less students doesn't necessarily make smaller classes. I'll look up the exact figures, but I do know that first years at Virginia do have to take at least one "USEM" which is a seminar class of 10 to 15 students.

Also, mamamiles, you point out that rankings change radically from year to year. In every year of the U.S. News rankings, UVa has been ranked higher overall and in academic reputation than William & Mary. That dynamic has in fact *never* changed. However, William & Mary has consistantly been a top 5 to 8 public school (while Virginia has been #1 or #2 in every year of the rankings on record).

I do think that the difference between the schools may be negligible. For instance, there is a much larger reputation gap between William & Mary and Virginia Tech than between Virginia and William & Mary. However, it's hard to make an argument that the rankings change year-to-year, or that William & Mary has ever or will ever be ranked higher than Virginia in any overall ranking or in academic reputation... just as it seems unlikely that Virginia will ever outrank Harvard or even a Dartmouth in those same rankings.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:18 pm: Edit

By the way, mama, UVa is a lot closer to DC in my experience... it may only be about 40 miles closer in distance, but the traffic and time it takes to get there is a much easier jaunt. ;)

Also, here are some factual statements with no biasness on my part. According to (again) U.S. News, 50% of U. of Virginia classes have less than 20 students in them. 46% of William & Mary classes have less than 20 students.

So, a smaller school does not necessarily have smaller classes.

Also -- 4% of Virginia is International. Only 1% of William & Mary's students are. Since that's 4% of a more than twice as large number, there are approximately 8 to 9 times as many International students at Virginia as at William & Mary.

Sorry if I seemed rude folks... it just still strikes me as strange that Larry Sabato's school and the home of a Top 10 law school would be seem as less of a pre-law magnet than William & Mary, which has a top 30 law school and somewhat less notable Government professors.

I do realize that the potential student in question is going into International Studies instead, where her choice may be easier.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Sorry to clutter up the board, but I just re-read the original question and I came to think of what made me choose UVa over William & Mary in the first place (not this year).

William & Mary has a very bad grading curve. All the students coming in were 4.0 students in high school just like at UVa, but at William & Mary the average grade is a 2.9 to 3.0... despite what WM people will tell you about how "graduate schools realize that our grading scale is harder", it's simply hard to get into grad school with a 3.2 at W&M when you could have had a 3.6 at UVa.

There is a perception around that it's very hard to get into top grad schools like say Harvard, Princeton, Yale from William & Mary because the average undergrad GPA at those grad schools is 3.8 to 3.9 and at William & Mary it's virtually impossible to get those kind of grades without killing yourself to do it.

At UVa, it's much easier to have a life while an undergrad and still get into the very top grad schools.

That, more than anything else, was what made up my mind after talking to the current students. I am now in grad school at Penn -- an Ivy League school -- and I highly doubt I could have gotten in doing the same quality of work at WM (I was not the top student in my classes, more like upper third).

If grad school is on the horizon, please do some research into the grading policies... ask students there about the workload and how difficult it is to get an A after being used to getting all A's in high school.

It's simply not fair to make the average grade of all these A students a B- like they do at WM, but that's the way they do things. If she can be the one student at WM to have a 4.0 it makes it all that more special, but if she wants to have a life she may be better served where she can have one and still go to a good graduate school.

Just my two cents... sorry to post so much! Good luck to everyone... this is an exciting time to go to college!

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Breeze, I'm sorry if I snapped. I agree with you about W&M in that aspect. My friends who went had 4.2's and 4.3's and many didn't make honor roll once at W&M.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Hey Lovewriting, I didn't think you snapped at all... I did come across as rude, and I'm sorry.

I do think that of all the things we've talked about, the significant things that stick out to me are the 4% International vs. 1% International students, the easier path to graduate schools, and the consistantly better rankings and reputation ratings.

I will say that a 4.0 at William & Mary stands out more than a 4.0 at UVa... but as you say, most everyone with a 4.2 or 4.3 in college falls well short of that at either college. The students at both schools come in with great grades, but the top third of students such as myself who had a 3.6 at UVa may have only had a 3.2-3.3 at W&M.

I do think that outside of the grading thing, the two schools are very similar in a lot of respects. They are both "liberal arts" types of schools that aren't very heavy on the sciences. I do think WM does a little better job with their sciences than UVa does. And half of UVa's math department can't even speak English. Sometimes being more international is not an advantage. ;)

One more thing though -- UVa's foreign language departments are incredibly good. Spanish, German, and French are particularly notable, as is Russian and Japanese. Hindi and Chinese is rapidly improving.

An interesting note about being a truly international school: UVa is the only school in the nation that offers Tibetan as a foreign language (because of China's iron-fisted rule, you can't even learn Tibetan in Tibet anymore).

I hope all this helps you in some way Mamamiles. I will say that despite all my angling for UVa, and the fact that I truly believe it would be the better place for your daughter if she cares about grad school, either choice is a good choice. Your daughter should be very proud that she got into two fine schools where so many are rejected. Now is the easy part: choosing between two correct answers.

Just don't say no one warned you when she complains about getting straight B's @ WM for work that wasn't at all lacking for effort! She can still do graduate school at a place like American even with those grades. But to get top jobs in her field, I've got to believe she's going to have to bust her butt at W&M and get into somewhere a little higher up the scale.

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Both UVA and WM offered my daughter academic scholarships, so that evened the score on the financial scene. After spending time over the past few days at both UVA and WM, my daughter was much more comfortable at WM. While UVA may have more international students, its international studies program is really not that well-developed at this point, and it doesn't even appear to have anyone in charge(although I understand that the recruiting process is underway). WM has a wonderful International Center and programs in International Studies that meet her needs. If she doesn't get straight A's so be it... she is more concerned about her intellectual development, and after meeting students and professors at both UVA and WM, she concluded that WM is really a better fit for her. We'll just roll the dice on grad school.

So thanks for all your comments. I can see that most people feel very passionately about their schools! (BTW, we live in Northern Virginia... it took us 2 hours to get to UVA and it also took us 2 hours to get to WM!)

By Breeze (Breeze) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 09:37 am: Edit

Mamamiles, what was the academic scholarship that UVa offered your daughter? That's surprising, because UVa doesn't generally give merit scholarships..

I think your daughter made a fair choice. If she is concerned about her intellectual development, she should go where she feels most comfortable. I saw it as college teaches you how to think, but I considered myself to already know how to think (LOL). So I went with the most prestigious and the clearest path to graduate school. This decision is necessarily different for each individual, I guess that's what makes it fun!

I really don't think she's necessarily "rolling the dice" on grad school, as in any grad school. Just about any UVa or WM student can get into grad school... it was just easier for me to "go Ivy" from UVa.

As far as the distance thing, you must live on I95 in Northern Virginia. If you came from DC itself or especially the western part of Northern Virginia where the population buildup is, you'd find it a bit easier to get to UVa but it's sure not a 3-hour difference. Depending on the time of day you go, it's likely only a half-hour difference or so, as UVa is exactly 38 miles closer to the District than W&M according to Mapquest (I just finally looked it up).

I think your daughter picked a great school, and I'm sorry to hear that UVa doesn't have a director of its international studies program right now... hope they find one!

P.S. Sometime in the next 4 years, recommend your daughter look into Georgetown for graduate school and not American... I have a feeling it'll be easier to get where she's going through that gate.

P.P.S. Congrats on having a smart, motivated daughter! I think she will do well at W&M!!!

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 10:11 am: Edit

This is slightly off base, but my son got into UVA, but not William and Mary (wait listed). He is a very liberal artsy type with 1370 SAT, 800 (writing), 700, 640, and a bilingual IB diploma from a private international school in DC. He had great ECs (acting, sunday school, film, overseas study, Amnesty International.) I thought he would be a good match for CWM, more so than UVA.

Anyone hazard a guess as to why he was accepted at one, but not the other? BTW, we're in-state.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

That's a good question... my best friend in high school got into William & Mary but flat out rejected to UVa even though his parents went to UVa so he was both in-state and "Legacy".

In general, I think there's some random-ness to the process. If he really wants to attend W&M more than UVa, you or he should try to contact the admissions people there and ask if they might re-view his decision. If they decline, I'm sure he'll be very happy at UVa, as he seems to be interesting in writing (given his 800 Writing SAT-II score)! UVa has a bit stronger English department and Creative Writing program than WM (though both schools excel in these areas).

What was your son's GPA? I'm pretty surprised, given his scores, that your son was not accepted to both without the blink of an eye, with nearly 1400 and 800 Writing, in addition to being in-state. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that WM simply "messed up" somehow.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Breeze.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As I have written elsewhere, my son will be attending USC film school this fall. I was just curious about the CWM v. UVA.

He had a 5.8/9 (6=A-) on a 7 point system in a highly demanding IB program. His gpa went up nearly every semester, and his grades first trimester this year were his best ever. His HLs are in English, History of the Americas, and Dramatic Arts. His SLs are in Math Methods, Spanish, and Chemistry.

To make things even more interesting he was acceppted to UNC as an out-of-state student, but both my wife and I are alums. That it a very important admissions' criterion at Carolina.

Oh well. We're thrilled about where he was accepted and not especially concerned about where he wasn't. USC is the right school for him

By Breeze (Breeze) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Wow, USC Film School! If that's what he is into, I've got to agree that you shouldn't care about where he wasn't accepted... USC Film School is top-notch!!

I'm also impressed he got into UNC out-of-state... even if "Legacy", that's quite a feat (knowing that they require 82% in-state students, as opposed to 65% at UVa and WM).

Looking across the spectrum of schools and programs he was accepted to, and particularly looking at his GPA, SAT, and the fact that he improved from beginning to end, the WM thing is a little bit weird. Either they were turned off by his essays (maybe if he didn't particularly want to attend, he didn't put a lot of time into them), they made a mistake, or they thought for some reason that he wasn't likely to attend if accepted (WM has a thing about their "yield", percentage of accepted students who attend... it's quite a bit lower than UVa's or UNC's, and they'd like to have it increase).

Congrats to your son, USC Film School rocks.

By Chrisd (Chrisd) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 03:01 pm: Edit

I've heard that admission to UVA is very difficult for out of state students. Is this also true of W & M?

By Ctmom (Ctmom) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 09:22 am: Edit

Yes,only 1/3 of the admits can be from out of state; but I heard that of the over 10,000 applications this year, 2/3 were from out of state.
So, yes, the standards will be higher for out of state applicants.

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Breeze, UVA offered my daughter a University Achievement Award.... I guess they are trying hard to get highly-qualified minority students to enroll at UVA. (My daughter is multi-racial). While we appreciate the efforts of UVA to maintain diversity, we were a bit put-off by their emphasis on the "special needs" of minority students.

Thanks for the advice on Georgetown for grad school... we will definitely keep this in mind.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 12:41 pm: Edit

UVa has a great record of attracting (and unlike some other schools, graduating) minority students! They do try hard, it's true...

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

UVa has no peer with minorities:

"Among state-operated universities, The Journal’s report found that the University of Virginia had the highest black student graduation rate at 86 percent and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill had the second highest rate at 65 percent."

Click here to read about it at Amherst College - JUST THE LAST PARAGRAPH

In this ranking of "integrating blacks", UVa is #9 and other publics are unranked

That means that the William & Mary graduation rate for blacks is 64 percent or lower. Compared to 86 percent at UVa, I'm quite proud of UVa's record with minority students and any "special needs" they may have adjusting to college life. I can see how that might turn you off, but faced with the fact that underrepresented minority students graduate at a much lower rate than white and asian kids at every other school, I think it's a good policy and other schools might do well to adopt one that sees that their needs are met and they are able to stay in school (whether it be a financial, social, or other problem). Unless they are making school "easier" for black and hispanic students, I'm really proud that UVa cares about graduating its minorities, not just enrolling them as at many other public schools.

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Breeze, my comment was not meant as an insult to UVA. I only reported on my own family reacted (beginning with my husband, who is black and has completed a masters degree).

You are correct, in observing that UVA has an unmatched very high graduation rate for minorities. I don't know if we are insensitive, or too sensitive (I am white, husband is black), but from our perspective such heavy emphasis on special programs doesn't do much to break down barriers. But on the other hand, until we repair what I believe is the the real problem, unequal resources in elementary and secondary schools, I suppose these kinds of programs serve a good purpose. We have been blessed in Prince William County, VA with excellent schools, rich diversity, and the availability of AP/IB programs and programs for gifted/talented students.

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Mamamiles, I do see your point... if I were you, I'd be slightly insulted too or I'd probably have the opposite reaction and think UVa was misplaced to give your daughter that particular scholarship.

You see, that particular scholarship is supposed to be for DISADVANTAGED minority students. If your husband has a master's degree and you live in Prince William County, you probably aren't in the income range in which you should have been targeted.

I do agree with you that the school the child comes from is the "problem" that needs to be corrected, not the race of the student (obviously). A white or asian kid from inner-city Richmond or DC would have just as many problems adjusting to life at UVa/WM/Ivies as a black or hispanic kid from that school or neighborhood.

I also think that UVa is hypersensitive to the needs of minority students because it has a "country club" atmosphere to combat. It doesn't help that Thomas Jefferson is the Founder and Father of the University (and country) but owned slaves. You could say UVa is "over-compensating" by doing everything it can to make sure the black students it matriculates go to class, pay their fees, and graduate, but it's hard to overcome 147 years of "white country club" reputation in the 37 years it's been "trying" to recruit and graduate minorities.

Anyways -- I think your daughter sounds like she has an amazing head on her shoulders (probably gets it from her mom), and I have no doubt she will learn a bunch, have a lot of fun, and go on to Georgetown, Harvard, wherever she wants to go. Since I failed in recruiting her through her mother to UVa, in four years I'll try to recruit her to Penn.

Watch out!!!

By Mamamiles (Mamamiles) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Breeze, we are indeed scratching our heads on the UVA scholarship award... our family is certainly not disadvantaged! If my daughter had decided on UVA we would certainly have approached the university about the appropriateness of the award. (We don't really need the money; we are solidly upper-middle class, two masters-degreed parents (and have already put our other 2 daughters through school and happy to report they graduated)... and this is the last birdie in the nest). In the end, the warm and fuzzy sense she got from WM won out. She is going small for undergrad but understands that a larger university makes a lot more sense for grad school. Who knows, UPenn could end up on the grad school list alond with Georgetown, Harvard, Yale....

Thanks for the feedback.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 01:39 pm: Edit

From today's Virginian-Pilot (Hampton Roads area) on-line version:

"In terms of demographics, the report also showed that: - Five of the 15 public four-year colleges -- Christopher Newport, James Madison, the University of Virginia, Virginia Military Institute and The College of William and Mary -- experienced declines in their percentage of black students.

`I don't think we're as aggressive in the recruiting of students,' said M. Rick Turner, the dean of African-American affairs at U.Va., where the proportion went from 11.3 percent to 8.7 percent. `I don't think the university cares as much anymore.'"

The article indicated that Old Dominion U. doubled its African-American enrollment enrollement to 22% in the last decade and its minority enrollment to nearly 33%. George Mason U. has the largest number of minorities at state colleges in Virginia with over 33%.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=52745&ran=3313

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Tsdad, I'm not surprised that ODU and GMU have many more black students... the areas they are in also have many more black students, and both are commuter schools being extremely easy to get into.

UVa's proportion may have declined, but it's still higher than other schools of its caliber. Only UNC has a higher proportion of black students among the nation's top public schools. And I believe UVa still has a lower proportion of white students than UNC, giving it the second highest rate of overall diversity (including hispanics and asians) among the top schools (the highest being Berkeley).

As far as minority students, UVa is also very close to 33%. Enrolling more Asians and less Blacks than ODU though. Does that count? I don't know. Asians aren't really underrepresented at college.

That article does bring up an interesting point though -- the Dean of African-American Affairs thinks UVa doesn't care as much anymore. While a parent in this thread was put off by the fact that they seem over-zealous in "caring" about race in admissions. Hmmmmmm... they must be right where they should be? I don't know.

My opinion is that with the story presented by the parent in this thread (about receiving a full scholarship for disadvantaged students from a household with four bachelor's degrees and two master's degrees), UVa cares too much about enrolling "blacks" and not enough about enrolling "disadvantaged blacks" (or disadvantaged whites, asians, hispanics, etc). I guess you'd find that at any top school these days, as everyone looks at the percentage of minorities and no one looks at the percentage of students from below-poverty families. I don't think such stats even exist.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 02:26 pm: Edit

UNC Data for Undergraduate Students Enrolled Fall 2002

White 19,779 (76.0%)
African-American
2,574
(9.9%)
Other
3,675
(14.1%)

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 03:55 pm: Edit

UVa Data for Undergraduate Students Enrolled Fall 2002

White (69.7%)
African-American (8.9%)
Other (21.4%)

By Breeze (Breeze) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 04:10 pm: Edit

WM Data for Undergraduate Students Enrolled Fall 2001

White (82%)
African-American (5%)
Other (13%)

UVa wins!!! It has the most diverse students IN THE WORLD!!! Okay, so we only compared three schools.

By Macsuile (Macsuile) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Here are some stats on William & Mary:

- Second oldest U.S. university
- Oldest U.S. law school
- Birthplace of Phi Beta Kappa
- Thomas Jefferson's alma mater
- Most selective Virginia university
- Third highest SAT scores in the South (only Duke and Rice are higher)
- Highest entering student GPAs in Virginia
- Fastest growing university endowment in Virginia
- Best physics, history and biology departments in Virginia

As you can see, William & Mary is really our best Virginia university. Yes, the grading scale is somewhat deflationary and the course offerings are not as extensive as some other Southern schools, but William & Mary is a school high on tradition which doesn't subscribe to fads where everyone graduates cum laude and there is a supermarket of course offerings. The school is committed to the British university model which is human-scale as opposed to other university models which focus on research and increasing enrollments. W&M may not be for everyone but a degree from there has timeless substance, something you can't find from most other U.S. schools which are constantly trying to reposition or recreate themselves.