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My friends and I were discussing the prestige of both schools and my friend who's from NJ says that they don't even know about UVA and they only talk about W&M, I don't know how other out-staters perceive W&M vs. UVA.

By Alexandre (Alexandre) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 03:08 am: Edit

I would say that in academic and professional circles, UVA has an edge.

Personally, I would chose UVA over William and Mary in a hearetbeat.

Academic Reputation according to University Deans:
UVA 4.4/5.0
W&M 3.7/5.0
Edge: UVA

Setting:
Charlottesville: Ranked #1 city to live in
America.
Williamsburg: Quaint but dull little colonial town.
Edge: UVA

Business School Ranking:
UVA: Top 10
W&M: Not top 25
Edge: UVA

In short, UVA would be my pick.

By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 07:23 am: Edit

As an out-of-stater whose daughter chose W & M, I think the prestige factor for these schools is fairly similar, though UVA has an edge. UVA is, of course, a very large university with several top graduate schools, while W & M's focus is on undergrad education (though I understand their law school is ranked in the top 30). I've also found that, in NY and CT at least, people whose kids aren't engaged in the college search have equally vague notions about the two schools and don't necessarily consider either to be all that prestigious. Not true, I know, but neither has the name recognition up here that comparably ranked schools do.

Aside from prestige, however, the schools are quite dissimilar in atmosphere, surroundings, departmental strengths, etc. Prestige might be a legitimate consideration in choosing a school, but I don't think it should be the overriding factor if a student is considering UVA vs. W & M.

And - not everyone finds Williamsburg dull, believe it or not!

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 08:41 am: Edit

Can anyone tell me how difficult it is for an out of state student to get into W&M? Thank you.

By Alexandre (Alexandre) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 09:03 am: Edit

Difficult! It is difficult for an in-stater to get in, let alone an out of stater.

I would say that a GPA under 3.7 and/or an SAT under 1300 pretty much dsiqualifies most applicants. To have a chance (and not a good one at that) as an out of stater, you should have a GPA close to a 4.0 and an SAT score in the 1400 and above range.

And by the way, what did you want to know about technology and universities?

By Topper (Topper) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 09:39 am: Edit

UVA definitely has more prestige, but honestly, I'd think it be easier to get in there than to get into &M as an out-of-stater.

By Fiza (Fiza) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 11:33 am: Edit

I personally like W&M much better in terms of students, administration, academics.

Some ppl say UVA is more prestigious. It's more of a cutthroat preprofessional school than WM.

Think UChicago (WM) vs. Northwestern (UVA)

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

>> Can anyone tell me how difficult it is for an out of state student to get into W&M? Thank you.

Very difficult. On par with many of the top-ranked private colleges and universities.

Here's a study done on UVA admissions stats using data for the 1999 freshman class obtained through Freedom of Information act requests:

http://www.ceousa.org/docs/virginia2.doc

The study itself is focused on affirmative action, but it has very interesting tables on stats for in-state and out-of-state. In particular, look at the charts starting on page 11 of the Word document The "stats" for UVa and W&M out of state will be nearly identical.

For a white out-of-state applicant the 25th, 50th, and 75th percentile Verbal SATs of the admitted applicants were 650/710/750.

For Math SATs: 650/720/760

For high school class rank: 95th, 96th, 99th percentile.

Note that the stats have increased some since 1999. To see how daunting these numbers are for a white out-of-state applicant, the 75th percentile SATs at UVA were 1510. Compare that to Duke (1510), Dartmouth (1510), Brown (1500), Emory (1460), Williams (1510), Swarthmore (1530), Vanderbilt (1420), or UVA overall (1420).

The problem is that both UVa and W&M have a state mandated cap on out-of-state enrollment, yet both have huge numbers of out-of-state applicants.

On the plus side for a male applicant, W&M's applicant pool skews heavily female and they have trouble reaching a 50%/50% enrollment. So a male applicant will face somewhat better odds.

By Dogstreet (Dogstreet) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Much of UVa's prestige is garnered from their excellent graduate schools. Professional Schools are UVa's strong suit and their undergraduate business program (McIntire) is excellent.

W&M has a very different mission. ALthough they have graduate programs in selected depts, (Marine Science, A&S, Law, Education and Business) the central focus at W&M is on intense and rigorous undergraduate education. Whereas UVa gives good attention to undergraduates while juggling the needs of some top graduate programs, at W&M, undergraduates are the stars. Nearly 80% of all students live on campus in a residential model that is different from any top public and the majority of private schools.

Certainly, UVa has more financial resources but they also have a medical center to support, and they have an enrollment that is 3 times the size of W&M. However, both schools are making a big push to increase private funding and their endowments are increasing significantly each year.

In terms of admissions, both schools are about equal although W&M's freshman profile is more homogenous in the students they admit and their SAT median and GPA's are slightly higher than UVa. One reason for this could be the smaller size.

If I was a student interested in Business, I would def. go to UVa. If I was thinking about a career in the academy, I wouldn't think twice about enrolling at W&M (they have the highest percentage of graduates earning PHD's in Virginia for public and private schools.) Both schools offer a tremendous amount of opportunities for a student aspiring to enter law school and medical school and you can't go wrong with either one.

Really, prestige is in the eyes of the beholder. W&M does not have ACC athletics, large, comprehensive graduate programs and is a little less visible on the national scene. If you define prestige by that, then I would say UVa has an edge. But W&M is known for other things good and bad. It is well known in academic circles that W&M grills students and gives them an enormous challenge. This turns off some people from applying although 10,000 people normally apply for 1,300 seats in the freshman class.

I like the comparison betwenn Chicago and Northwestern. I think that is one good way to characterize the differences.

On a side note, picking universities based on prestige is a surefire way to end up at the wrong institution. In the case of W&M, UVa and similarly regarded schools, I wouldn't really look at what other people think. It's more important to go on campus, read the student newspapers, introduce yourself to some students, sit in on some classes and email some profs. Simply judging a school by what friends or relatives think of their prestige is just not a sound way to pick a college.

By Madness (Madness) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 02:42 pm: Edit

"UVA definitely has more prestige, but honestly, I'd think it be easier to get in there than to get into &M as an out-of-stater."

why do you say that?

and, considering both schools are public, do they look more at pure numbers? should i concentrate on getting my 1380 into the above-1450's for consideration?

By Taurustorus (Taurustorus) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 03:07 pm: Edit

if you're from out of state, then yes, you should. but not too much that you're ignoring your GPA and w/e else you're good at (EC, leadership, etc.).

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

>> and, considering both schools are public, do they look more at pure numbers? should i concentrate on getting my 1380 into the above-1450's for consideration?

That is a really good question. It seems logical to me that the larger the school, the more they will be forced to rely on a numbers-driven approach to admissions. The smaller the school, the more likely it is that an essay or an EC or a recommendation or a tightly crafted application can be the deciding factor.

It's just a question of manpower. If you are reading 3000 applications, you can consider each one in more detail than if you are reading 30,000 applications. Most large state universities use a simple computer program to cull automatic admits and automatic rejects from the applicant pool based purely on stats (see UMich's numeric system). The admissions personnel then concentrate on the apps in the middle where some human discretion is required.

That's why I felt that UVa would be tougher for my daughter out-of-state than some of the equally selective smaller schools on her list. She had OK stats (>50th percentile SATs for UVA out of state) and a 99th percentile class rank. But, the strong-suit of her application was an interesting EC. Like most qualified applicants, she fell solidly in the "discretionary" pile. I was confident that smaller schools would value the EC, but worried that it could get overlooked in the shuffle at UVa.

William & Mary falls somewhere in the middle. Its admissions process is pretty much the same as most midsized private universities -- Emory, Vanderbilt, Brown, etc. The snag, however, is the 18% cap on out-of-state students, making the acceptance rate lower for out-of-state than it would be at equally prestigious private schools.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Shallow prestige tends to favour larger schools, schools with grad and professional programmes, and schools with Division I athletics. Given that, it is not surprising that people say that UVA has the "prestige" edge. It is only an edge, and it's just that. Both are very reputable schools. A lot of what makes a school prestigious (as mentioned above) are things which actually work against a solid undergraduate education. I listed three factors above, so here's how they can hurt an undergrad education:

1. Large size: often means larger courses; less interaction with professors, faculty, and administration; more of being a number, not a person
2. Strength of grad programmes: as said above, at schools like W&M, undergrads are the focus. Heavy grad programmes mean that undergrads get less attention from professors, far fewer opportunities to do significant research or writing with professors, and generally the fact that resources are going to grads, not you
3. Athletics. Swathmore recently stopped having a football team because they felt that they could not justify recruiting and accepting enough (often less-qualified) people to fill up the team - they would rather accept more qualified people. Also, DI schools focus on athletics, not academics. Obviously, not all schools sacrifice academics when they have stellar athletic teams (Williams comes to mind), but many do.

Done ranting. Seriously though - prestige often means very little. To answer the question, I would think that W&M is a better school. I'm sure that the grads are top-notch, have worked hard, and are prepared for graduate school or work.

By Gameguy56 (Gameguy56) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

wow, is uva really that hard for out of state applicants? Do the numbers matter the most, or do they really value the essays?

(ie would my out of state 1480/top5% be a most likely admittance, or would the essays need to be killer for me to even have a prayer?

By Madness (Madness) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Interesteddad: that's my main fear with large universities: that i'll get "lost in the shuffle" w/o amazing SAT's. hmm...seems like I really don't have a shot then; my main hook is the academics, but as my school doesn't compute GPA/class rank it won't even be as up-front as it would be at a public school.

By Undecided086 (Undecided086) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 05:52 pm: Edit

My friend was saying the same thing Ariesathena, he was saying that William & Mary is the second oldest institutions in the country and that anyone that is educated will know about it. William & Mary also has some notable alumni (e.g. Tyler, Monroe, Jefferson, John Marshall, Colin Powell's son, etc)

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 08:33 pm: Edit

>> (ie would my out of state 1480/top5% be a most likely admittance, or would the essays need to be killer for me to even have a prayer?

For a white out-of-state applicant, I would say that those stats would put you solidly in the pool -- call it "decent chance", but not "sure bet".

Beyond that, it is really hard to quantify the odds without seeing the totality of the application. What kind of high school? What kind of ECs. Etc. Students get in with worse stats and students get rejected with better stats.

The key is to understand that the "average SATs" listed in guidebooks for places like UVa, Chapel Hill, and W&M mean nothing for out-of-state applicants. The stats for out-of-state are much higher. So keep that in mind when you are deciding on your reaches, matches, and safeties.

By Julibean008 (Julibean008) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

the two schools are sooooo different. I applyed out of state to both. got accepted to W&M, rejected from UVa... not going to either.

UVa: big, loud, good sports, "old virginia" feel, conservative, busy, upbeat

W&M: midsize, calm, deep, tight-knit, intellectual, dull?

These things just came to mind when I thought about each school. I visited both and liked both

By Macsuile (Macsuile) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Here are some stats on William & Mary:

- Second oldest U.S. university
- Oldest U.S. law school
- Birthplace of Phi Beta Kappa
- Thomas Jefferson's alma mater
- Most selective U.S. public university
- Third highest SAT scores in the South (only Duke and Rice are higher)
- Highest entering freshman GPAs of any public university (Berkeley is close)
- Fastest growing public university endowment
- Outstanding accounting, biology, chemistry, history and physics departments

As you can see, William & Mary has an amazing academic tradition. Yes, the grading scale is somewhat deflationary and the course offerings are not as extensive as some other schools, but William & Mary is a school high on tradition which doesn't subscribe to fads where everyone graduates cum laude and there is a supermarket of course offerings. The school is committed to the British university model which is human-scale as opposed to other university models which focus on research and increasing enrollments. W&M may not be for everyone but a degree from there has timeless substance, something you can't find from most other U.S. schools which are constantly trying to reposition or recreate themselves.

By Socalmom (Socalmom) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

William and Mary is hard to get into for out of staters, but easier if you are male. My DD (we are from CA) did not get accepted at William and Mary, she was # 6 in her class, High 1400 SAT, 4.5w gpa excellent EC' (Pres. of two clubs, NHS, Team Captian for Mock Trial, internship at District Attorney's office, awards for journalism from Stanford and local Newspaper, co- editor school newspaper, City Youth Board,etc.) Two boys from her school got in with lessor grades and EC's. I heard at the time that smaller Liberal Arts colleges needed boys. It's Ok because before acceptances came, she had decided agaisnt W&M as not the right fit for her. We also visited UVA and hated it. I cannot see how Charlottesville is anything but a dump of a town, my DD could not see having to spend 4 years there. She did get into USC, GW(with $$$), Johns Hopkins, Tulane (with $)Rhodes(with $$)waitlist at Georgetown,UCLA/honors program and UC Berkeley with a scholarship. She chose Berkeley just because it felt right and the scholarship helped persuade her also.

By Barrons (Barrons) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:49 am: Edit

And Berkeley is not a dump of a town??

By Valpal (Valpal) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit

W&M is definitely easier to get into if you're from in-state. The Val at my D's high school (a white male) had only a 1240 SAT, and was admitted ED. However, he's bright and driven (just not the best test taker), submitted wonderful essays, with stellar ECs and teacher recs. I'm sure being a male was a slight advantage. But I doubt they would have admitted him had he been from out-of-state.

My D, a bi-racial female, ranked 9th in her class, but with better SATs, was also admitted. Only about 5% of W&Ms undergrad population is African American.