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I posted awhile back asking for suggestions regarding politically active schools, so some of this will sound familiar... (thanks to everyone who answered that one!)

I'm a rising senior frantically researching colleges this summer. One that I particularly like is Brown. I like the freedom of their open curriculum and I especially like their setting-- New England, yet urban (I'm from a rural area in California and it's important to me that the college I go to have access to public transporation, theaters, coffee shops, sidewalks..) And from what I've read about Brown's liberal sort of vibe, I feel like I could fit in well at that school (my main activities are political/human rights oriented).

I'm planning to apply, but I know this school is very much a reach. I have a 4.0 unweighted and am taking AP classes but my school has a limited curriculum (no AP European history or anything like that). I have a 1460 SAT (790 V, 670 M) and took the SAT II's in June (700 Math IC, 800 Writing, 800 Literature). Extracurriculars: Amnesty International (president of school chapter), cello, local Democratic/peace organizations, and ping pong club. I volunteer at the library.

Based on all this, can anybody recommend schools to look at that are similar to Brown but would, ah, not be as crazy-hard to get into?

On a sidenote: you guys are the greatest. The counselors at my school are really sort of unbelievably uninformed, and these boards have been such a help to me. Thank you!

By Mini (Mini) on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Vassar has an "open" curriculum and is especially seeking individuals of the male persuasion. Poughkeepsie is a small city with sidewalks, etc. Smith has an "open" curriculum and especially seeks individuals of the female persuasion (in an exclusive sort of way.) Northampton is a very happening small town, with lots of cafes, theatre, etc. Both will have very liberal vibes.

Don't know any others with "open" curriculum, but haven't looked lately.

By Scubasteve (Scubasteve) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 12:32 am: Edit

This may not be what you were expecting to hear, but you might want to check out the Gallatin School of Individualized Study at NYU

Urban environment (as requested) ... and at the Gallatin school you pretty much create your own major, picking and choosing whichever courses interest you from the rest of NYU's schools (stern, tisch, cas, steinhardt)

By Thekev (Thekev) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

Sarah Lawrence, Bard, Vassar, Swarthmore, Maybe GWU, Tufts

By Mini (Mini) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 01:01 am: Edit

Bard has no town whatsoever and does not have an open curriculum. Swarthmore has no town to speak of, and has no open curriculum. I don't think the others have open curricula either (except for Vassar.)

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 01:40 am: Edit

Certainly don't give up on Brown, particularly if you are able to effectively communicate your interest to them. It's a reach, but not the toughest school in the country to get into. With your record you definitely have a shot.

Plenty of other options, though urban + open curriculum + politically active is a tough combination if you stick to (large) urban and (very) politically active. Note that there are many schools where political activity is common, but not dominant, and many schools in smaller cities that have small-ish clusters of the elements you list.

Vassar was a school that came to mind as I read your post, along with University of Chicago, Reed College and Macalester College. The last three all have core courses and/or distribution requirements, though interdisciplinary study is really encouraged at Reed, and you can develop your own, unique major. That NYU option sounded interesting too. Didn't know you could mix and match courses from various schools that way.

What are your academic and career interests? More information could help focus replies.

By Burutzagiuribe (Burutzagiuribe) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 02:04 am: Edit

OP, what are you talking about????? You have a great shot at Brown, especially ED. I know tons of CA kids like yourself at Brown, and many of them have lower scores and weaker ECs. Just write a rock solid essay and get solid reqs...the rest of your application is fine, seriously. I honestly think you have a very good chance.

Also check out Vassar, Wesleyan, and maybe Amherst. I think you should DEFINITELY apply to Brown, ED or RD (though the former would help somewhat.)

Goodluck and hope to see ya!

By Moops (Moops) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 01:56 am: Edit

Thanks for all your responses! Some of those I hadn't really considered before, like Vassar and NYU, and I'll definitely look at them now. Thanks for the encouragement about Brown too : )

Reidmc: I'm not really sure about what I want to study yet. I wish I was one of those kids that knew she wanted to be an engineer, and therefore knew she wanted to go to a school that specialized in that area. I'll probably do something like political science or something in the humanities. I guess one of my criteria for schools is a variety of strong departments, so that when I figure out what it is that I DO want to do, I'll have the resources for it.

Another thing I've started to look at is schools in Canada.. so, you know, if anyone reading this is a specialist in Canadian universities and happens to know of some urban politically active ones or anything, feel free to give me some guidance.

Anyway, thanks again!

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 02:38 am: Edit

Many of the schools suggested above are strong in political science, other social sciences and the humanities. . .Brown, Vassar, U of Chicago, Reed, Macalester.

Though non-urban, Wesleyan and Amherst would also be good, though Amherst is a definite reach for you. Hamilton has no distribution or core requirements and is a solid match. .close to a safety with your GPA maybe. Another rural choice though. . .

By Ubercollegeman (Ubercollegeman) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 03:19 am: Edit

Why is Brown out of your league? Apply early; I wouldn't be surprised if you made it.

By Subtrunks (Subtrunks) on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 03:40 am: Edit

Moops:Dude relax Brown looks like a match instead of reach. With a 1460 I would even dare try HYPM (in your shoes of coarse). Try Columbia it will have that urban vibe and its somewhat liberal (downside is it has a nice nasty core curriculum). Swarthmore has a few distribution requirements(like 9 in total and you are taking 32 courses) and it has a train right in front of the main offices that will take you to downtown philly in 15 minutes. So yeah it won't be a bustling city outside your dorm window but you can definately get a peice of the action. Try Haverford as a safety. I don't knwo too much about it but I know its usually safety/match (depending on applicant) of the people that apply to swarthmore, amherst, brown, dartmouth, and williams. I haven't heard much about this school but since you are in the west coast you should maybe check out Whitman College.

Reidmc: I beg to differ. Moops can definately be accepted to Amherst. Its not a given but there is a good chance s/he will be accepted if s/he applies. I would say that Brown is actually a little harder to get into than Amherst.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

Subtrunks: Moops is an excellent applicant at any school where she elects to apply. If I were her, I would apply anywhere I felt I fit. I would not be surprised if she were to be accepted at Amherst or Brown, or at Yale for that matter.

But schools like Amherst and Brown are still reaches for her, at least under my set of categories, though I'd guess her GPA makes her close to a match. Both schools reject large numbers of excellent students annually, and in her case, we have no idea how her essays, ECs or her school will be evaluated. Again, absolutely no reason not to apply, but a reason not to bet the school fund on getting into any individual reach school.

I think different folks have different ideas of exactly what reach/match/safety mean, so for the sake of discussion I will stick my neck out a bit and include my descriptions below, granting that the inability of actually calculating chance of acceptance for most schools makes them problematic. (Of course any category system like this is problematic.)

REACH: less than 50% chance of acceptance
MATCH: 50% or greater, but less than 99%, chance of acceptance
SAFETY: 99%-100% chance of acceptance + 100% affordable

By Rhkid005 (Rhkid005) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 01:48 am: Edit

Vassar and Wesleyan are popular with Brown applicants. Wesleyan is almost as selective as Brown but is a bit easier, and Vassar is a bit easier than Wesleyan.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 03:19 am: Edit

While it is not as "liberal" culturally as Brown, Vanderbilt would be a place to consider. Similar size. Very good school, but a tick easier to get into. Fantastic location in an urban setting in a much more happening city than Providence. Tons of stuff to do within walking distance.

UPenn and U Chicago would be two more that fit the same basic size and location requirements; however, I'm not sure they are easier to get into than Brown.

As a general observation, this "open curriculum" stuff is an advertising gimmick and really not a big deal in the real world. Out of 32 semester long courses over four years, the typical requirement is 3 courses from the math and sciences, 3 courses from the humanities (English, languages, art, music, etc.) and 3 courses from the social sciences (poli sci, history, psych, etc.). You would have to work very hard to find a four year schedule that doesn't cover those bases. Even if you did, it would kind of defeat the purpose of a good, solid liberal arts education. The whole idea is to sample different departments so that you can find out what you want to do with the rest of your life.

The tougher constraint on scheduling is satisfying the prerequisites for your potential majors. Those are going to paint you into a corner with or without an "open" curriculum.

By Confused86 (Confused86) on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 03:32 am: Edit

Cornell, a lot of courses from which to choose and it is not as selective as Brown. It does not, however, have an open cirriculum like that of Brown but it is still liberal.

By Fredmurtz2 (Fredmurtz2) on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 03:55 am: Edit

To put some of the comments into context:

Penn has an admit rate of 21% and a yield of 63%
Chicago has an admit rate of 40% and a yield of 33% (though the admit rate is deceptively high)
Cornell has an admit rate of 31% and a yield of 49%
Vanderbilt has an admit rate of 40% and a yield of 35%
Brown has an admit rate of 16% with a yield of 58%

This is without factoring Penn's Ben Franklin Scholars program and Vanderbilt's merit aid catches.

All of the above schools are distinctively excellent and have their own pluses and minuses.

To add another perspective to the commentary about the worth of the 'Open Cirriculum'....Brown as you may or may not know has two grading plans which are at the discretion of the student. You can take classes ABC/No Credit [There are no plusses and minuses] Or, you can take any class on a S/NC basis. You can request a written evaluation from any professor.

You may say that a slacker would find Brown a very accomodating place. Yes, that's right. (Though they would slide by anywhere else anyway). The admissions committee tries and generally succeeds in picking people for which the program of study is clearly a good fit.

You are right that the open program of study is not in and of itself a big deal. However, if you truly think that 'a good solid liberal arts education' is important, The S/NC option is very helpful. What Engineering major would want a 'C' in a James Joyce class? What Afro-Am Studies major would want a C in Thermodynamics? The S/NC option encourages people to explore beyond their safe areas. But, It allows the person maximum flexibility to determine what they are most interested in studying. So it offers an opportunity for experimentation. The program of study isn't the issue as much as the institutional culture [which really can't be explained on a board]. In any event, 86% of Brown's graduates complete the traditional core requirements of peer institutions. Yet, it is a great plus to have the options and timetable totally to your choice. It is rated as one of the happiest schools in the country.


I think Brown has on this board a reputation of being a bit of a flaky place....So I just want to add that 99% of graudates get into their top 3 choices of business schools, 95% into law schools, and a 86% into medical schools (top 5 nationally).

I have never had the good fortune to travel to Vandy and its' surronding area but I have had heard generally good things said about Nashvile. I have been to Providence though and I can say the city is very ethnically diverse [30% Hispanic 10% African-American] and that Brown on College Hill is somewhat self-contained so it is not overwhelming, with larger things to do just a walk away [Edit: It is a small town, 175,000]

(Fair disclosure: I'm a Brownie)

Moops, you are a very qualified candidate for any college you are looking at and you have much to be proud of. Just remember though that it is a seemingly arbitrary process and hope for the best.

Other schools with small cores include: Lehigh, Vassar, Haverford, Wesleyan, New College of Flordia, UVA Echols [I dont know if you can only apply to Echols though] and Amherst

Best of Luck!

By Subtrunks (Subtrunks) on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 04:12 am: Edit

ok by reidmc definition of what is a reach you are correct Amherst, Brown are reaches for moops but with those and just saying she applied to 5-10 schools the likely hood of gettign rejected by all of them is very small..syaing she also added a few matches and safeties she will be more than fine...it is true though h,y,p,s,m,col,a,w,s,b,cor and the rest of the top tier schools are always a reach regardless of stats

By Monydad (Monydad) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 01:21 am: Edit

My daughter wanted: great academics, liberal student body,relatively few (or easily fulfilled)requirements, and urban. She found that there weren't many places where she could get all of this, possibly due to some of her other criteria. Consequently she wound up applying to schools that did not meet all of her initial preferences.

Her stats were slightly better than yours. Brown rejected her.

The other schools she applied to were: Barnard, Macalester, Pomona, Wellesley, Vassar, Oberlin and Carlton. I don't know for sure which school met which of her criteria best.

By Chamonix (Chamonix) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 11:03 am: Edit

If you want a safety, try Hampshire college in Amherst. They're known for their open curriculum. In my opinion, it's too open, but you may want to research it.

By Kimfuge (Kimfuge) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

isn't Brown more selective than Dartmouth and Amherst?

By Taxguy (Taxguy) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Consider Wash U. St Louis. It has one of highest endowments in the US (yes, higher than that of Brown), and is known for being very open as to majors. In fact, they encourage double majors. It also is a fabulous school, and most kids interviewed there love the school. I would put it ahead of some of the Ivy league schools in quality and personally would put it ahead of Brown. However, check out both schools and see what appeals most to you. Like people, schools develop their own personality.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 09:56 pm: Edit

>> isn't Brown more selective than Dartmouth and Amherst?

The median SAT scores are higher at both Dartmouth and Amherst than at Brown. I would put all three at roughly the same degree of difficulty.

Brown has a slightly lower acceptance rate, but the SAT scores tell me that this is only because they are getting addtional apps at the bottom of the totem pole (i.e. no prayer apps). Amherst being an LAC and Dartmouth being just a mile or two down the road from the North Pole tends to make their applicant pools a bit more self-selective. Over 4000 of the 14000 applicants reporting an SAT at Brown last year scored less than 1300. The vast majority of those 4000 apps would be "no-prayer" applications that descrease the acceptance rate but have no realy bearing on the odds of admission for a qualified applicant.

By Monydad (Monydad) on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 10:50 pm: Edit

.

By Fredmurtz2 (Fredmurtz2) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 02:29 am: Edit

Interesteddad wrote
The median SAT scores are higher at both Dartmouth and Amherst than at Brown. I would put all three at roughly the same degree of difficulty.

Brown has a slightly lower acceptance rate, but the SAT scores tell me that this is only because they are getting addtional apps at the bottom of the totem pole (i.e. no prayer apps). Amherst being an LAC and Dartmouth being just a mile or two down the road from the North Pole tends to make their applicant pools a bit more self-selective. Over 4000 of the 14000 applicants reporting an SAT at Brown last year scored less than 1300. The vast majority of those 4000 apps would be "no-prayer" applications that descrease the acceptance rate but have no realy bearing on the odds of admission for a qualified applicant.


Within Brown's accepted class of 2008, the middle 50th percentile scores for students on the verbal portion of the SATs was 670-770, and on the math portion, 680-780 (1350-1550).
Thirty-four percent of the students who were accepted were valedictorians of their graduating class; another 29 percent were salutatorians. Overall, 94 percent of the students who were accepted were in the top 10 percent of their graduating class.

35 percent of the students who were accepted are students of color

http://www.Brown.edu/Administration/George_Street_Journal/vol28/28GSJ19c.html

By these SAT numbers (Not that they should be used as arbiters of selectivity in any case) Brown will have a class of higher scoring SAT students (Even though it is a very poor measure of selectivity). Meanwhile, 23.6% of Dartmouth Students were Valedictorians compared with 34% of Brown's. 29% of Brown students were Salutatorians verses 9.6% at D. 83.5% of D's students were in the top 10% of the class versus 94% at Brown. 500 apps were filed from students below the 3rd decile at Brown. I hesitate to generalize from SAT scores because it is quite possible that applicants skilled in one area [verbal or math] is weak in the other. No way exists from the data given to determine the SAT scores of above and under 1300. Dartmouth does not release the data that Brown does so it is rather difficult to compare the two. According to the revealed preferences survey, Brown is usually the more chosen alternate. The Harvard project on SAT scores also shows that 1600 scorers are more likely to be admitted to Dartmouth than Brown.

Taxguy, What makes you put WUSTL over Brown in quality?

I second Hampshire College in Mass as a possibly excellent safety/match

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 03:06 am: Edit

The Brown numbers you give are not useful in a comparison because 'accepted' does not compare directly with 'enrolled'. The accepted class will almost always have higher stats than the enrolled class.

We won't be able to do an apples to apples comparison with Dartmouth and Amherst for this year's freshman class until the common data set numbers are released. As of Fall 2003, Dartmouth and Amherst both had slightly higher median SATs in the enrolled class. However, not enough that I would see any measurable difference in degree of admissions difficulty.

I see Williams, Amherst, Swat, Dartmouth, and Brown as being pretty much the same in terms of admissions difficulty. Of course, one particular student may be a better match, and therefore have better odds, at one particular school.

By P3ar (P3ar) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 04:33 am: Edit

Why not UC Berkeley?

By Fredmurtz2 (Fredmurtz2) on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

I apologize for not catching that, I thought it was enrolled becuase it was dated 6/25. My Bad.

By Kimfuge (Kimfuge) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 02:53 am: Edit

hmmm it seems that swarthmore, amherst, williams, brown, and dartmouth all have similar admission standards. but is penn college in this group also?

By Dave72 (Dave72) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:11 am: Edit

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Oberlin yet, since it fits many of your criteria: politics, open curriculum, music, etc. Very close to Brown in spirit. It's not in a city (though it's half an hour from Cleveland), but then many of the other places people are naming aren't either (Hampshire, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc.).

By Blaineko (Blaineko) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Grinnell in Iowa...first Political Science department.

Very liberal...kewl students.

By Monydad (Monydad) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Dave72, I did in fact include Oberlin in my prior post. Apparently the connection you make is valid, since my daughter after analyzing her options using much of this same criteria actually chose to attend Oberlin.

It is most certainly not in a city, but as I said previously all of her options involved compromise in some respects.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Alot of good ideas here. Brown is about 55% female so some of the former all girls schools with a 60/40 mix that are not so structured may be places to look for that kind of environment. That includes schools like Wheaton, Goucher, Skidmore, Vassar, Sarah Lawrence. Also schools like Grinnell, Oberlin, Bard, Hampshire have some similarities. I would also look at some schools such as Wittenburg, Ohio Wesleyan, Kenyon, Denison, Wooster. They are not as difficult in the admissions area but give excellent educations. Clark is another consideration. American, possibly.

By Wesleyanstudent (Wesleyanstudent) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:42 am: Edit

I am finishing my senior year and have loved every minute, and my brother is going to be a freshman in the Fall.
Most of the people I know at Ohio Wesleyan come from New England. You ask anyone where they're from, and chances are you'll get the number of minutes outside of Boston they live, CT, NY, but it's not as bad as it seems. Despite the huge numbers of Boston, CT, and NY suburbians we have at OWU, we also have people from all over the country (my roommates freshman year were from Hawaii and West Virginia) and all over the world. Not to mention the fact that no matter where they are all from, the people at OWU are overwhelmingly fun and relaxed, and a big part of the reason the school is as great as it is.
The biggest incentives to come to OWU over other similar schools are our academics, great selection of class and our diversity and location.
The SLU system is unique to OWU and becoming more and more of a plus as the fraternity scene is diminishing. The major benefit of the houses are their parties, which give students a chance to have a good social time (and, of course, drink beer, let's be honest) in a larger atmosphere. The parties are consistently packed and mean that you can meet new people every weekend if you want. And if you love dancing, as I do, then it gives you the dancing scene that many other small schools lack. The SLUs also organize all kinds of other events, like lectures, professor dinners, and fairs. If you have ideas, you can usually get them implemented through your Small living Unit house.
Ohio Wesleyan is a lot like many other small New England liberal arts colleges, but the several things I listed earlier are what really make it different, and better in my opinion. You might think being in Ohio for four years is awful, but Columbus is so close that you can have a lot of fun here.
You might not have heard of Ohio Wesleyan before, but that doesn't mean that it isn't for you or your kid. My dad keeps saying how he wishes he could go back to college so that he could go to Ohio Wesleyan; it's just that nice. I've had a great time, but that obviously doesn't mean everyone will. If you feel the need to be in the middle of a city, then OWU is not for you. But if you want to be able to walk around campus and know most of the people you see, have a great time, get personal attention from professors, and live and eat great, then you should take a closer look at Ohio Wesleyan. Come visit us!

By Travelr (Travelr) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 01:38 am: Edit

It sounds like you have a good chance of getting in to Brown, Moops. I concur with what others have said.

I had very similar criteria to you when I sought out colleges. I also wanted to go to Brown, but, alas, was rejected. My choices were Conn College, Bates, and Skidmore. Skidmore was my choice because it was the most "open". It was a great, great decision for me.

Saratoga Springs, although not an "urban environment" is a college town with a lot to offer. It is also under three hours to Boston and NYC.

My two cents...