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We don't have LAC's over here, so I was just wondering what the difference between the two is? Which is better respected?

By May_1 (May_1) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Before I start, please FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ignore whatever Medelinemay11 says. Now that that's done...

In the states, Universities are institutions that contain several different schools (also referred to as colleges) and offer graduate degrees in several fields. For example, the University of Southern California has (within it) the liberal arts college called College of Letters, Arts, and Sciences, as well as Schools of Architecture, Medicine, Law, Engineering, Business, etc, although the schools of Law and Medicine on grant graduate or professional degrees. These are all subdivisions of the greater University.

A liberal arts college is essentially that same core college, but without all of the other schools and without any of the graduate degrees (PhD, EdD, MPhil, MD, MA/MS, MEd, JD, LLM, the list goes on and on) that are typically granted by the graduate and professional schools. This is why LACs are typically much smaller than Universities.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit

In short: LACs are four-year colleges emphasizing the liberal arts. Universities have either masters and/or doctoral programs and are typically more research-oriented. Many many many more differences.

Which is more "respected?" Depends on who you talk to; very subjective word. Read the other extensive threads about LACs for more info. By asking this question you're probably about to re-initiate a long long debate that's been going on for too long.

By English_Girl (English_Girl) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Ok, will do!

By English_Girl (English_Girl) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:52 pm: Edit

I'm not trying to start a debate really, I was just wondering what the difference was. So LAC's just offer undergraduate degrees? And how small is small? Because I think the unis here have much less people in the ones in USA anyway

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Yes, in a word, LAC's just offer undergraduate degrees. Their size can range from less than 1,000 students to up to 3,000 students (sometimes even a bit larger). Research universities are usually much larger - from about 6000 to upwards of 30,000 in some instances. There are also U.S. schools which are considered comprehensive universities. These schools offer a combination of graduate and undergraduate degrees, but typically don't offer full doctorate (phd) degree programs. Comprehensive universities tend to fall somewhere in the middle in terms of size, although a few are quite large. I think the suggestion made above to read some of the threads on this subject should help you to see what the differences are. You might also get a good idea by visiting the web sites of a few examples - read their mission statements and you'll soon get an idea of the differences in terms of focus:

LAC - Swarthmore -www.swarthmore.edu
Research university - University of Calif- Berkeley www.ucb.edu
Comprehensive University - University of San Diego - www.usd.edu

Remember, it's possible to get a fine education at any of these types of schools, it all comes down to your personal preferences.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:05 pm: Edit

lol I totally understand initiating it wasn't your original intention, but you have to understand some of the people on this site.

I believe some might offer post undergraduate degrees, if any, but generally no.

Claremont Mckenna, Harvey Mudd, Pomona College, three of the bigger LACs here on the west coast each have a total ug enrollment of about 1,000.

By English_Girl (English_Girl) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Thanks for the replies Does anyone now anything about the college of William and Mary? The uni itself and also location. I'm not going there but I know someone (well, kind of know them) who might be going for a year on an exchange

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

When I said "bigger," I meant as in more prominence, not as in more people.

Carolyn put it nicely.

By A2a2 (A2a2) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

LACs offer only undergraduate degrees (although there are a few with very small graduate programs). There's no set size, but most vary from 1000 to 3000 students.

The choice between an LAC and a university is a personal one - there are other threads arguing the pros and cons. Outside the US, universities are certainly better known. Inside the US, universities are also better known -- if only because they put out more graduates -- but there are many prestigious LACs as well.

By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

"Before I start, please FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ignore whatever Medelinemay11 says. Now that that's done... "

May_1, I totally resent that statement. You know that I myself prefer smaller LACs to larger universities such as Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, Upenn etc.

English_girl, the main differences are stated above. Another difference I can think of is the TYPE of education that is offered at arts colleges versus the more mainstream universities. They focus more on arts-type majors (literature, history etc.), whereas the universities offer a broad range of education which include the Sciences as well (e.g. advanced chemistry, physics etc.).

Here is a good link I found that exactly defines the term "liberal arts", and the main historical focus.

Here is a definition of the liberal arts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Arts

(main historical focuses)
1)grammar,
2)rhethoric,
3)dialect,
4)music,
5)astrology,
6)arithmetic
7)geometry.

As far as respect/prestige goes, you can figure it out yourself. The best universities include "Harvard, Stanford, Ivy-league MIT etc.)" The best LACs are probably "Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams"....which ones have YOU heard of more, and which would YOU think are more prestigous?

I myself didn't even know that LACs existed until I did a LOT of research....I then found that I liked the smaller colleges because I don't like facing the intense competition at the Ivies.

By English_Girl (English_Girl) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

I see your point. I haven't heard of any LAC's! (I'm not saying that they're not good though before anyone has a go at me! I don't know enough to really have an opinion).

By May_1 (May_1) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 09:17 pm: Edit

"Another difference I can think of is the TYPE of education that is offered at arts colleges versus the more mainstream universities. They focus more on arts-type majors (literature, history etc.), whereas the universities offer a broad range of education which include the Sciences as well (e.g. advanced chemistry, physics etc.)."

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY FALSE.

LACs including Pomona and Swarthmore offer excellent science programs in addition to their humanities offerings. The reason they call liberal arts is to denote the fact the you are getting a broad and deep education that guarantees that while you can specialize in one specific area, you must take courses that are within the liberal arts general requirements. They don't necessarily mean "arts" as many laypersons would think. In fact, almost every University has a liberal arts division where all students must take general requirements to be granted a degree from the university.

"As far as respect/prestige goes, you can figure it out yourself. The best universities include "Harvard, Stanford, Ivy-league MIT etc.)" The best LACs are probably "Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams"....which ones have YOU heard of more, and which would YOU think are more prestigous?"

To laypeople, Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore may be less well-known, but for educated persons, they know that AWS is right up there with (I hate using this term) the "lower" Ivies. You can't really compare anything to HYPSM, so it's not fair to compare AWS (or any other school, really) to them.

Again, please DO NOT listen to MM11. She really hasn't the slightest clue of what she speaks. Oh yes, and I'm not trolling for LACs; I chose to turn down one of the big 3 LACs for one of the big 5 Unis, but the decision had nothing to do with prestige, as (at this level) the differences are negligible.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:33 pm: Edit

EnglishGirl:

To summarize:

The best schools in the United States for 4-year undergrad degrees teach a liberal arts curriculum. In most cases, these are the undergrad school in a university setting (Harvard, University of Virgina, etc) with other schools that offer advanced degrees (Law, PhD, Veterinary, Medicine, Business, etc). When the undergrad school exists on its own, not connected to a larger university, it is known as a "liberal arts college".

In general, the significant difference is size. A liberal arts college will have 1500-2500 undergrad students. An undergrad school within a university will usually have 4,000 - 20,000 undergrad students.

William and Mary is technically a small university. However, it has an unsually high focus on undergrad students and is really more like a very large liberal arts college.

LAC's are best known in New England, where they have been part of the educational system for 200 years. Some 25,000 students attend a dozen well regarded LACs within a 3 hour drive of Boston. For example, three of the top four students graduating from my daughter's high school are going to liberal arts colleges (the other is going to a large state engineering university). This in not uncommon among New England students. Knowledge of the LACs is less prevalent in other parts of the country where education historically began with the founding of state universities. However, there are at least a few excellent LACs in every region of the country.

By Rhkid005 (Rhkid005) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:44 pm: Edit

The top liberal arts colleges (Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Pomona, Wesleyan, Carleton, Haverford, Middlebury, and a few others) are just as selective as ivy league schools. The reason why they aren't as well known is because they are smaller (and hence fewer people have heard of them). However, when applying to graduate schools, liberal arts college graduates do VERY well. The top schools for sending graduates to get Phds are almost all liberal arts colleges (as opposed to universities). Also, in a recent study by the Wall Street Journal, Williams ranked FIFTH in the nation for sending its graduates to the best professional schools (law, medicine, and business), behind only Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford (and ahead of Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia, Brown, Johns Hopkins, MIT, etc). Amherst and Swarthmore placed 8th and 9th.

By Gameguy56 (Gameguy56) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 12:06 am: Edit

the northeast hast at least 10-15 very highly repsected LACs, but they are not just found in New England. Far from it.

As interesteddad said, there are great LACs all over the country.

in the south
Washington and Lee, Davidson, U of Richmond (its close enough to an LAC), University of the South

Midwest
Grinnell, Macalseter, Oberlin, Kenyon, Carleton, Denison, Depauw, Trinity(tx), St. Olaf

West Coast
Colorado College, Pomona, Whitman, Claremont-McKenna, Harvey Mudd, Occidental, Scripps, Reed

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 12:22 am: Edit

In the five Claremont Colleges on the west coast, the ug enrollment is small. Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd all have ug enrollments of less than 1500. Harvey Mudd, an engineering-focused college, has an amazingly low total enrollment of about 800. I only know this because I live 10 miles away.

But this is not my particular area of expertise. Interested dad seems to have a firm grip of this subject.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit

>> (main historical focuses)
1)grammar,
2)rhethoric,
3)dialect,
4)music,
5)astrology,
6)arithmetic
7)geometry.

Utterly amazing that you could throw this "definition" out there and neglect to mention that the reference you cite is talking about the use of the term "liberal arts" in medieval Europe when it orginated hundreds of years ago.

That kind of intellectual sloppiness (or dishonesty) could be corrected by a strong liberal arts education.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

>> In the five Claremont Colleges on the west coast, the ug enrollment is small. Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd all have ug enrollments of less than 1500. Harvey Mudd, an engineering-focused college, has an amazingly low total enrollment of about 800.

The Claremont Colleges are a bit of an anomoly. While they are officially five separate colleges, they share a common campus (and probably a good deal of their faculty). Therefore, they achieve some efficiencies of scale commensurate with a larger school with 5,000 students. An alternative way of looking at the Claremont colleges would be as a mid-size undergrad "university" with five separate divisions. It's actually quite an interesting model.

By and large, it is extremely difficult for a liberal arts college to be economically viable with fewer than 1500 students. The magic number for most seems to be in the 2000 to 2500 range.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 02:04 am: Edit

Yes, the Claremont Colleges system is definitely unique as far as LACs. In my junior year of high school, I myself looked into it and found Claremont McKenna to be particularly attractive. But speaking of being "economically viable," I ultimately found it to be financially impractical.

I've expressed this concern several times but not on this post: each of the five colleges cost over 28k/year in tuition (which may or may not be indicative of LACs overall), about the same amount you would spend on Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and other more big-name schools. I'm keen enough to realize that notoriety isn't everything; a solid ug education is essential for success in just about any career, and LACs are great at providing that. However, is it really worth 28k a year to attend a school with such limited notoriety?

UCLA and UC Berkeley's tuition isn't even one-fourth that number and virtually everyone in the U.S. has heard of those schools. Sure, the educational isn't the same and the class sizes way bigger, but you're paying less than one fourth the tuition.

I'm from the west coast, and personally, I didn't even know what AWS stands for before reading about it on this website. And I'm sure many of you from the east coast have never heard of the Claremont Colleges.

I guess if finances aren't too big an issue and you don't mind limited national recognition compensated by a strong ug education, LACs are well suited for you.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 02:12 am: Edit

Kevin:

California is the exact opposite of the East Coast. Where you live, the public universities offer excellent educations and few students look to private schools.

On the East Coast, the best schools (generally speaking) are the private schools.

It's impossible to compare "sticker" prices. You really have to compare the real cost of attending. The top East Coast schools are so heavily endowed that they offer tremendous financial aid. For many students, especially low income students, it is net net cheaper to attend Swarthmore than Penn State. They can afford to offer this aid, in part, because they have long lines of qualified students more than willing to pay full boat.

But, certainly value needs to be a consideration in selecting colleges. Many LAC students are not choosing a college based on how many people at the mall have heard of it. Rather, they are choosing a college based on the person they will become after four years of very intensive personalized education.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 02:21 am: Edit

The regional notoriety factor can't be applied quite as extensively to graduate schools, though. I hear that graduate programs are often attracted to LACs, and graduate programs on a national basis will be more aware of the them than potential employers will. The MBA program at Harvard is probably well aware of the Claremont Colleges, though I doubt employers of Wall Street are.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 02:47 am: Edit

Yeah I see your point as far as the educational disparity between the east and west coast. That comparison of the Swarthmore and Penn St is interesting.