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My impression is that there is quite a difference among the Claremont colleges with respect to academic rigor and prestige. Is Pomona really that much better than Claremont McKenna? And are both that much better than Scripps?

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:26 pm: Edit

It depends on your major and you can take classes in any of the colleges. Claremont McKenna is best for business and political science, Pomona is more liberal minded and more generalalized across the board, Pitzer is best for social sciences. Claremont McKenna is getting very competitive in admissions as is Pomona. My son applied and was accepted to Claremont-McKenna and Pomona but wanted psych so went to Pomona. Initially he was considering political science and was more interested in Claremont-McKenna. My daughter wants to go to Pitzer and would apply to Scripps but doesn't want all girls. I am trying to convince her but doubt that I can.I seriously do not think you could go wrong at any of the schools there. Many kids apply to multiple schools there and you have all of the colleges resources at your fingertip. My S felt students there were very bright and very down to earth and extremely friendly and accepting of everyone.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:45 pm: Edit

I agree strongly with Arizonamom; she's done her share of homework. I live about 10 miles away from the CMCs, and can tell you that it's a totally different feel than big research universities. It's way more personable.

All five CMCs are evolving to be EXTREMELY competitive, as I believe nearly all of them accepted less than 10% of their applicants this past year. I definitely wouldn't say they're all equally prestigious, but I would place prestige secondary to the strength of the programs of the respective schools.

By Scubasteve (Scubasteve) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:48 pm: Edit

question from an ignorant northeasterner

do all the CMCs share one big campus together? Like at nyu for example you got a bunch of subdivided colleges (stern, tisch, cas, etc.)

Or is it like the UC's with a distinct campus for each school

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

They all share one big campus. Each of the five CMCs have I believe less than 1000 ugs, and cross enrollment is very common and encouraged.

By Scubasteve (Scubasteve) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 12:44 am: Edit

so it has all the positives of top a notch small school yet they are all integrated into one big campus, allowing the social amenities of a large uni to still exist
...quite a hidden gem you guys got out there... i wonder why it is not talked about more often... all you here is UC this and UC that

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 01:09 am: Edit

Not to nitpick but CMC is Claremont McKenna. The references are made to The Claremont Colleges or 5C.

The admissions are not really below 10%, it is the enrollment that is well below 10% of application. This is what I know about CMC:

CMC Class of 2008 Statistics
Number of applicants 3528
Number admitted 749
Admission rate 21%
Projected enrollment is 265 students

CMC Class of 2007 Statistics
Number of applicants 2892
Number admitted 897
Admission rate 31%

For the class of 2007, Pomona had 4539 applicants for an enrollment of 399 students. I believe Pomona's admission rate was about 20% in 2003 and 2004.

I think the numbers for Harvey Mudd are similar or better.

If you want to read the details, carry on

Each of the Claremont Colleges has its own student body, faculty, administration, campus, curricular emphasis, and individual style and purpose. And yet, because of their adjoining campuses, the colleges form a mutually beneficial partnership to offer joint academic programs and cross-registration in courses, to cultivate special curricular strengths on which the others may draw, to encourage contact and cooperation among faculty and students from different campuses, and to combine physical facilities and extracurricular programs

Claremont McKenna College
Claremont McKenna College is a highly selective, co-educational, liberal arts college educating leaders in business and public affairs. CMC enrolled 1,038 students in 2002 and is a member of The Claremont Colleges.

Harvey Mudd College
A coeducational, 700-student college, Harvey Mudd offers undergraduate programs in engineering, science and mathematics, while also emphasizing the humanities and social sciences. The school produces highly competent scientists, mathematicians and engineers who understand the impact of their work on society.

Pitzer College
With a curriculum that emphasizes the social and behavioral sciences, particularly psychology, sociology, anthropology and political studies, Pitzer is a coeducational college that enrolls nearly 900 students.

Pomona College
Founded in 1887, Pomona is the oldest of The Claremont Colleges. It offers a traditional liberal arts program, with majors in the humanities, social sciences, and natural sciences, to approximately 1,500 men and women.

Scripps College
An undergraduate women's college with an enrollment of approximately 800, Scripps is well known for its core curriculum in the humanities and its emphasis on interdisciplinary study. Scripps offers concentrations in the arts, language and literature, philosophy and religion, science and social studies.

Claremont Graduate University
With an enrollment of some 2,000 students, the Claremont Graduate University offers master's and doctoral degrees in the humanities and social sciences, government, economics, mathematics, botany, management and education.

Keck Graduate Institute
The seventh and newest member of The Claremont Colleges, KGI has a current enrollment of 66 students. The first American graduate school dedicated exclusively to the emerging fields of the applied life sciences, KGI offers professionally-oriented master's degrees. Its mission is to combine the vast power of ongoing developments in molecular biology, chemistry and related fields with creative, application-centered engineering.

By Kevin720 (Kevin720) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 01:26 am: Edit

lol scubasteve -it's interesting the way you put it. I personally don't find it to be an ideal school but it does have its positives. Like I mentioned before, notoriety is the biggest issue for me. That and $$$. Tuition is like over 28k/year; impossible for me without the scholarships.

Xiggi you're probably right and I was probably wrong about the acceptance rate. Thanks for the correction.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Xiggi and Arizonamom - I know you've both visited the Claremont schools. Did you get a sense of how much social interaction actually takes place between the different study bodies? Is it possible, say, to attend all-female Scripps and go to Harvey Mudd for parties and such to meet guys? Also, Arizonamom, for many years Pitzer was viewed as kind of the "hippie/alternative" school of the Claremonts. I have read in different places that this is changing and it is now attracting a more traditional student body --- any thoughts on this from your visits?

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 08:17 pm: Edit

It is hard to comment on those issues based on a short visit. I did not see many hippies on campus but I did not spend much time around Pitzer.

All the reports and personal discussions, however, indicate that there are endless possibilities to interact academically and socially. I know that many activities are programmed on a campus-wide basis and it is obvious that some thought went in the way the facilities are shared.

Then there are the sports activities that are very important at Claremont: CMC, HM, and Scripps form the CMS entity while Pomona teams up with Pitzer. There seems to be a bit of rivalry between CMC and Pomona for bragging rights. During our visit, we were told that there is a lot of interaction between the Scripps and CMC students because they are very close (on the map!) but the other colleges were also mentioned quite frequently, especially for the availability of "special buffet nights" like Sushi dinners on Friday on Scripps campus and Sunday steak dinners at Harvey Mudd - although no Wednesday High tea at Scripps for CMC boys . I cannot guarantee that all what was said is true but I know that the campus is compact and I saw lots of students walking from one end to the other. As it is the case in many schools, everybody seemed very happy and very friendly. Obviously, everyone knew we were prospective "clients" of CMC but I sense that it was genuine and universal throughout the 5C campus.

Oh well, this is the CMC version. It might be slightly different from a Pomona viewpoint!

PS I'll know more in a few months!

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 09:42 pm: Edit

I posted a long answer but it didn't appear so I'll try a shorter version. There appeared to be a lot of interaction between colleges academically and socially as well as with the joint sports teams. We only officially visited Pomona and CMC and walked through the other schools on our own. In our hotel there was a mom with a son at Pomona and a daughter at Pitzer. She raved about both schools being a great fit for her kids. We plan a visit to Pitzer in the next few months so I'll let you know what I think.Their campus center was not impressive but the grounds were nice and there were a lot of students studing by the pool in lounge chairs-now that is my kind of studying!

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Thanks guys. Looking over the Pitzer curriculum, it's a great fit for ALL of my daughter's interests and has the kind the of diversity she also wants. Arizonamom, please let me know about your visit. And,Xiggi, of course I look forward to a more detailed report from you in the future as well!

By Boxmaker1917 (Boxmaker1917) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Thank you, everyone, for so much info about the Claremont Consortium. I have a couple more questions that I hope you can answer.

My dd is an IB diploma candidate with 3.3 (unweighted)/3.6 (weighted) GPA. We think her class rank is in top 5%-10%. She took the ACT and got a 30 (= 1320/1340 on the SAT).

1. My dd thinks that Pomona sounds the most appealing but it also seems more selective than some of the other Claremont colleges. Is Pomona too much of a reach?

2. Is Claremont McKenna less selective -- and if so, how much so? Does my dd have a shot there?

3. How is it viewed if she applies to more than one college? That is, could she apply to both colleges?

4. We are from the upper midwest. Does that improve my dd's chances?

5. Is there a lot of smog in that section of CA?

Thanks again for the info on these colleges and for your help with my questions!

By Lamom (Lamom) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Grew up in the area-smog is usually in the summer when students are usually gone. Smog has decreased since I was there but since you are asking it is probably more than you are used to.

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 12:24 am: Edit

Each college has a seperate admission and you can apply to all of them if you choose.Most folks seem to apply to at least 2.Definetly try Pomona kids get in with 31, 32 ACT's and many with high 1400, low 1500 do not. I think they focus a lot of great essays and extracurricular activities/leadership.The kids that go there seem very well rounded. I would expect being from the midwest would help.The smog there never bothered us or was an issue. We never visited in the summer though.Claremont McKenna is getting more selective each year. This year they only took 20% of those that applied and applications were up, Pomona accepted 19% with another huge increase. My son didn't think he'd get into Pomona and did and is thrilled with his decision so I would never rule out a school.I would definetly retake the ACT as scores do go up with studying and you only send the best score. A 32 in Math/Eng would make a huge difference and is very reachable. Good luck, maybe we'll see you out there.

By Boxmaker1917 (Boxmaker1917) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 01:05 am: Edit

Thank you. Lamom and Arizonamom -- the Western Moms! -- from a Minnesota mom!

My dd will retake the ACT in October. A lot of the math was NOT covered yet in her two-year math class. (IB Math Studies -- for the not-great math students.) Her math teacher thought she would be better prepared next fall. She did great in the English portion. My dd also just took the SAT for the first time last Sat and thought it was easier than the ACT so we are hopeful about that.

My dd does not have much in the way of "leadership" claims and does not participate in any school activities. She spends about 15 hours a week in a non-NCAA sport (sigh). She is first in her level/age group in the state and one of 30 on a regional team that represents 11 states. She also has 60+ hours of community service and 60+ hours of "creative" endeavors (taught herself to play guitar) which fulfilled some of her IB requirements.

I hope these are "Pomonaesque!"

How are they with financial aid since getting in is only half the battle?

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 01:23 am: Edit

Boxmaker - I looked at the Claremont schools with my nephew and visited CMC with him last December. We both live in Minnesota.

1. Unless your dd has some very unique EC achievement or strong national academic accomplishment, she is unlikely to be admitted to Pomona.

2. CMC appears to be slightly less selective than Pomona. The acceptance percentages are approximately the same, but test scores and gpa/rank appear stronger at Pomona. We got the idea that there was a tiny bias in favor of qualified non-Californians, and the M/F ratio, which is heavily male at CMC, may help female applicants like your dd. Given all this, your dd would have a better chance at CMC than at Pomona, but it is still a reach.

Two additional points re: CMC: (A) CMC is in the business of educating future business and government leaders. They are looking for leadership elements in all applications. (B) Related to (1), if your dd does not want business, government, law or an international relations career, she should not apply there. The school is missing several traditional liberal arts departments and some of the departments they do have are small and have few proponents. Boosters of the Claremont consortium (and I am one) note that students can cross-register at the other schools, and they can, but it is not quite as easy as it appears, particularly for upper-level courses. We heard this directly from a CMC admissions staffer.

3. No problem in applying to both Pomona and CMC. Many top California students do so.

4. See (2). . .maybe a little bit.

5. There is smog in that area, but it is reputed to be minimal during most of the academic year. Weather was particularly nice in December, but I wouldn't want to spend my summers there.

If you and your dd visit the Claremont colleges (and unless she is dead set against a women's college, I would definitely include Scripps on your visit), I'd also visit Occidental College, about 30 minutes away. Your dd would have a better chance of admission there, and it showed well to us on a visit. Closest Midwest comparison might be Macalester, though Oxy students seemed a bit more traditional and the academic atmosphere seemed a little less intense. (The Mac student body has higher test scores, stronger gpa/rank factors and is more diverse geographically, but the minority population at Oxy is higher and one of the highest of any LAC - almost 50%.) They have an interesting mix of strong departments, amazing paid research opportunities and a unique diplomacy school.

At a college faculty retirement dinner last week I sat next to a parent of an Occidental first-year student. His dd, a budding biochem researcher from western Wisconsin, loves the school.

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 01:55 am: Edit

Finaid is very good at both CMC and Pomona. My son got excellent merit awards at his other schools so we could not really compare finaid with them but he got nothing as in zip at Emory which is supposed to be quite good with aid so with that comparison I would say they are good. We did get a great letter from the psych dept at CMC outlining their programs and it sounded quite inclusive.What is your D major?

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 02:00 am: Edit

Reidmc do you know much about Scripps? I would love for my D to apply there but she is worried about the lack of male friends. With the 5 colleges together it does not seem as if it would be as much as an issue especially with taking classes at other schools. Can you or anyone else comment about this.She would also be doing sports so I would think that would help.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 02:20 am: Edit

I've talked with parents of recent Scripps graduates and work with an '83 grad. Everything I've ever heard has been positive. Harvey Mudd and CMC are majority male so I think the overall gender balance in the consortium is pretty good. As you saw, there are Scripps and CMC buildings that are closer to each other than most buildings on research university campuses. Having a brother at Pomona might be a plus, too. . .good excuse to hang around over there.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 01:16 pm: Edit

the M/F ratio, which is heavily male at CMC, may help female applicants like your dd.

The current student body (1050) of CMC is 55% male and 45% female. The latest admissions were equally divided at 50%. Harvey Mudd has a male majority with 2/3 male. Gender might play a role at Harvey Mudd but it does not seem to impact the admissions of CMC or Pomona.

By B18c1cx (B18c1cx) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Kevin720, there is no Claremont College that has an acceptance of under 10%....

There is no source that ridiculously off, so please stick to the truth from now on... also, there is a considerable difference between All 5 claremont colleges. They are not even close to being the same.

1) Pomona is very prestigous among college level acedemia across America.

2) Claremont McKenna is very prestigous in the financial and law circles on the west coast and to anyone in the east who has contact with the west.

3) Harvey Mudd is very well respected among engineers.

4/5) Scripps and Pitzer are considered good schools among certain people, but are not quite as prestigous as the previous three.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 03:15 pm: Edit

B18~

Is there a reason to jump on Kevin? Is it the first time that someone uses the attendance number versus the larger admission number? There was no malice nor no harm done in using his number since it was corrected in a subsequent post. After all, Kevin will attend USC's business school and was recognizing the merits of a ... different school!

I am quite certain that countless people who would consider your assessment of the differences between the Claremont schools to be ridiculously off, especially your description of Scripps! The reality is that most of the schools discussed in this post are all great schools with distinct images and history. As far as prestige and reputation ... aren't they criteria that remain elusive and hard to quantify?

Fwiw, before I started researching schools, I NEVER heard anything about Pomona but I had known Scripps for years! I believe that polling 100 educated persons about prestigious schools for women would reveal that the school is indeed well known despite its relative youth.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit

I had heard about Pomona and Harvey Mudd but did not know that they were in the same consortium.
While the west coast women's schools don't enjoy the same prestige as the eastern single sex schools, they do have a following of students who treasure their education.
However the pool of students applying to a single sex school, particulary one of the lesser known western schools is not as competitive as the general LAC pool.
By viewing other schools that applicants to Scripps are interested in, they are more likely to be applying to public CA colleges like UCLA and Cal Pomona whereas applicant to eastern womens colleges are more likely also applying to more competitive schools like Stanford and Harvard.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Ekity~

For obvious reasons, I am not an expert on all women schools. However, I believe that it would be quite a generalization to represent that Scripps applicants are in a pool as wide as a UCLA to Cal State Pomona would be. Even if the SAT stats are only a partial indication, I believe that Cal Pomona has about an average of 1000 while UCLA should be at around 1260. That is a large range.

There are probably different ways to look at selectivity with criteria ranging from the peer ranking that favors the old East Coast establishment to SAT/GPA rankings and ends with endowment size! If one would look at the sterile test numbers, it would be acceptable to conclude that the band of the schools is narrower than expected. While Wellesley and Wesleyan show slighly better GPA and SAT numbers, the overall admissions' numbers are pretty similar. I do not think that Scripps SAT range of 1220-1410 is that different from Smith, Mt Holyoke, or Bryn Mawr range.

That said, I think that Mini, TheDad, and a few other parents would provide a better analysis than my generic and simplistic exposé.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

For those interested in the overall contact among the schools:

The campuses of all five schools (Pomona, CMC, Harvey Mudd, Scripps, Pitzer) plus the combined graduate school are side-by-side within the confines of an overall rectangle. Each campus occupies a strip of the rectangle some blocks long and several blocks wide. There is a common library, an interfaith building, and a few other buildings in common.

Dorms for each college are within its own section of the overall campus.

Students may eat at any of the dining halls on the combined campuses. The schools have combined athletic teams. Performances, dances and other social events are typically held for the overall campus. Students of each school are allowed to take a certrain number of classes at other schools. So there is quite a bit of opportunity for mixing and interaction of students of the five schools.

By Zuesviolin (Zuesviolin) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Scripps College may be one of the most under-appreciated schools in the country. As a member of the Class of 2008, as well as both the daughter and granddaughter of Scripps graduates, I know the true value of a Scripps education. Both my mother and grandmother graduated from Scripps; my mother continuing on to grad school at UCLA and my grandmother at Columbia. They are both remarkable women and I am proud to be a third-generation Scrippsie. In terms of selectivity, Scripps had a record 1721 (about) applications for a class of approx. 200. The acceptance rate fell into the low 40s, high 30s. Scripps also has the highest number of NM Scholars, per captia, of any college or university in the US. In terms of socialization between the Claremonts, it is very easy to attend a class, go to a party, or just meet students from the other schools. My grandmother married a Pomona grad, and we just had family friends who met and got married after graduating from Pomona and CMC. Many of the people on these boards have chosen Scripps over top New England LACs such as Amherst and Mount Holyoke (and I know there are more). Some even choose it over CMC and Pomona because they prefer the community Scripps provides. To say that Scripps is second to top East Coast LACs is completely false.

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Wow thanks everyone, I will show all these to my D and hopefully we will visit Scripps as well as Pitzer. I'll keep you updated.

By Mini (Mini) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, my d. visited both Scripps and Pomona. She thought Scripps was superior in virtually every way -- better advising, better curriculum (and more cohesive class because of its core), better housing, MUCH better food (lots of Pomona students eat over at Scripps). She also thought the students, on the whole, more interesting. She ended up choosing Smith (just had more that met her rather particular needs), but Scripps seemed awesome!

(Xiggi -- average SAT scores, and even acceptance rates, can be deceiving. Smith, for example, has a class that includes 10% older students, virtually all on scholarships, average age 36 (range 26-69), with on the whole much lower test scores, and they recruit every single one of them -- so to reject them would be considered a bad thing, not a good one (and hence selectivity "suffers", whatever that means). Mt. Holyoke has truly optional SAT scores. Ivies, especially the top ones, attract HUGE numbers of foreign applicants who are accepted at 2-3% rates - subtract them from the equation, and all of a sudden they are signicantly less selective. None of this matters -- "fit" is what matters most.)

By Boxmaker1917 (Boxmaker1917) on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:32 pm: Edit

I'd like to briefly revive this discussion by asking for additional clarification.

1) Which school? My dd is interested in majoring in Russian. She also thinks she would be interested in studying psychology and/or linguistics although she has not had the opportunity to take a class in either.

Since so many kids change majors during their college careers, we prefer a "traditional" liberal arts curriculum. Pomona would be a reach. Which other school would be the best match in terms of her interests? We were thinking Scripps but not sure about Pitzer (beyond the strength in psych).

2) Movement among colleges? We are hearing mixed things about how easy/difficult it may be to cross-register among the colleges. For that matter, how hard is it to transfer between colleges once you are in? For example, if you are accepted at Pitzer and did well in classes, could you transfer to Pomona?