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Hi, I am consdiering the following law schools. Could anyone please help me distinguish the pros and cons of each. I live in England, so that might affect your decision in reocmmedning me one. I know enough about the law schools, I wanted to know more about the people, cities, reputations, specialisms and so on. Thx

Columba; NYU; Cornell; Michigan; Berkely, GeorgeTown; Notre Dame; Duke; Northwestern and as a insurance school - San Diego.

By Lordmandean (Lordmandean) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 06:45 am: Edit

we spoke before...competition for JD program in US is fierce...check http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/law/brief/lawrank_brief.php to check how competitive each law school is...go to your law school in Sheffield Uni and talk to the professors who have been guest lecturers in US universities. They can shed light on speacialism and other details. They may also have contacts in US law schools so try and get letters of reccomendation from them.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 11:25 am: Edit

Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Michigan, Berkeley (Boalt), Georgetown, Duke, and Northwestern all have phenomenal reputations. They are also very, very difficult to get in to. Most have acceptance rates at or below 20%.

Notre Dame is a good school, somewhat easier to get in to. San Diego is probably the easiest to get into.

A caveat: it is very, very difficult to get into law school today. About 150,000 people took the LSAT last year, and only about 56,000 will enroll in the fall. The schools you are thinking about are the most competitive. Unless you are a stellar student, and have at least a 167 or so on your LSATs, you should have other schools on your list. In 2003, 48% of students who applied to law school did not get in anywhere. It is not uncommon for many students to overestimate their ability to get into top law schools. You should also have more than one safety - try about three or four.

NYU and Columbia are in New York City (Manhatten). Georgetown is in DC. Cornell is in upstate New York - very much a rural area. Not sure enough about the other ones.

The websites of each school will tell you a lot about their specialities.

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:10 pm: Edit

The following is coming from a most reliable source that almost all of the most highly respected international law firms recruit from the following seven US law schools:

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Columbia
Duke
Michigan
Georgetown

The competition to get into these seven law schools is cutthroat.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

You Guys are scaring me now

I have yet to take the LSAT. If I got, say, 165 - which I think I can - where could I go with that sort of score?

Also, other than LSAT and GPA - what else it considered very important?

Will it go in my favour being British - Given that they value diversity?

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Also, I understand the acceptance rates are low, say 20 percent, and lower in some places. However, to attricute some value to that statistic it would surely be beneficial to know the standard of students competing? After all, undergard addmissions to my Uni here is 15-1 places, however, many students arent that strong who apply to undergrad insittuions, because they kid themselves into believing they can get into good places for some reason. I ask, therefore, is there anywhere that details the statistics of the total applicants for certain places - not just the ones aceepted?

I cannot help but think you guys are overestimating the difficulty of getting in, since the average GPA's etc arent as high as I expected, and certainly within my reach.

By Cama (Cama) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Pdoran... If you think you have the stats go for it but we aren't over estimating the level of competition. You are probably one of the thousands that have the same stats you do. Coming from an American perspective it is very very difficult to get into the schools on your list. Not saying not to try just be prepared.

By Treyy685 (Treyy685) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit

collegeparent...eh..no.
that list is not to be taken too seriously because it leaves out NYU, and everyone knows it is among the best law schools...above some of those that managed to get a place on that list.

Go for NYU...or columbia (though it's not on your list). great city...and a wonderful school academically.

By Barrons (Barrons) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Life at Big Law--think about it--from a college sports board.

Reason #101 why I hate my job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several reasons why I hate my job. This week it is because I've slept 2 hours in the last two days (assuming I don't sleep between now and 7am, which is a safe assumption). Last night I was up most of the night for a closing. Today, after finally getting the deal closed in the late afternoon, a partner informs me at 5pm that I need to do about 20 hours of work by first thing this morning. Nothing better than pulling what amounts to two all-nighters in a row. This isn't unusual, either. One day I'm going to say screw it, and walk out the door.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Can anyone adress the couple of questions I had. Barrons, I am not entirely sure why you posted that????

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

PDoran: I just finished applying to law schools and am well aware of how difficult it is to get admitted. Not to be condescending, but you probably have no idea how tough it is to get in to those schools you mentioned.

To put it another way:
The schools on your list enroll about 300 students each. Some enroll more, some fewer, but let's go with 300 on the average. Top 10 schools, 300 students each, 3,000 students (roughly!) total. 150,000 students take the LSAT every year. 3,000/150,000 = top 2% of LSAT takers go to those schools you are considering. Most people who apply to law school did well in college. Most are probably capable of doing the work. A fair portion of the people applying will have Ph.Ds or masters degrees; many will have come from top US schools; some of them will have an advantage of going to that school as an undergrad.

Apply to four or five schools which you are a good bet for. Then apply to as many as you can above that. Look at the websites - you might be able to find LSAT/GPA grids which list LSAT on one side, GPA on another, and percent admitted in the corresponding squares. Use those to figure out where you stand. It's very sobering.

By Barrons (Barrons) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:41 pm: Edit

The majority of lawyers would not do it again if they could. They have about the lowest job satisfaction of any profession. Just some information to consider before it is too late.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Pdoran: As you can see, the competition is tremendous, especially when you are looking only or almost only at the top schools. It might be helpful therefore if we knew your objective in attending an American law school.

Are you aiming at (a) seeking a position in an international law firm (b) looking for American legal training desired by foreign companies for their business managers (c) aiming at becoming an academic (d) seeking to move to the US and become an attorney (e) seeking legal training for a certain specialty such as intellectual property/patent law or (f) anything not mentioned?

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 05:10 pm: Edit

I would be looking to practise law in the US. However, seen as I dont know what law I will enjoy most, International law is something I have certainly not yet disregarded. I would therefore effectively be emmigrating.

The thing is, see, is when looking at the stats here, although they dont take into consideration the average GPA, getting into a good law school with a 3.5 GPA hardly seems excessively elite, as the stats suggest for Chiacgo. Of course, such raw data does not consider extenuating circumstances; the applicant, for example, might have had tremendous work eperience, aced the lSAT, had personal problems, or anything else, or all of the above. However, my point remains since Cornell's median GPA - though it may have been somewhere else since I cant remember; though it was nonetheless a top school - is 3.67.

Now, if Cambridge University ask for a 2.1 by english standards or a 3.4 in US standards, for one of their postgrad courses(as they do). It would be safe to assume that, given the 2.1 degree classisication of a 2.1 emcompasses a very broad 10 percent of marks, and the degree classification 70 percent of students at good universities here, a 3.4 would equate to a low 2.1 As stated in another post, a girl at UCLA I know said a 68% here - 2 percent off a first - equates to a 3.8 in the states. If I got a first, therefore, surely on GPA basis alone that wouldn't represent a impediment to law school entry. In fact, if I got 3.8 or above, that would go heavily in my favour at somewhere like Goergetown, Notre Dame or Cornell wouldnt it?

As Usual, your help and input is much appreciated.

Thanks

I found the GPA stats here - they may nto be accurate.

http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/index.php/1/desc/GPALow

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

I would be hesitant to rely too heavily on converted GPA. A 3.6 at some US schools is highly commendable - magna cum laude, close to summa. At others, it is average; or, the schools are of a lower quality, so being in the top of your class is not difficult.

With the law schools on your list, the students who are getting grades like a 3.6 are near the top of their classes at very good schools. I do know a kid with a 3.2 who got into Columbia, NYU (matriculating), Northwestern, William and Mary, Chicago, Penn. Now, that 3.2 is from Rice, land of rampant grade deflation - so a 3.2 there was very, very good. He's also an engineer. He also has a master's degree in engineering - another good thing. Finally, a 174 LSAT - which is amazing.

My one recommendation to you would be to take the LSATs and rely heavily on your score from that to make a good list.

A 3.8 is amazing - but from where? The Penn admissions dean said in an interview that a 4.0 from a third-tier college and a good LSAT score would not be enough to get in. A lower GPA from a much better school could help a lot more.

Take a look at BC's Law Locator. (Use a search engine.) It will give you a very good idea of where you can go with what GPA and LSAT score. Also, try the LSAC's Data Search to generate percentile chances of admission to different schools.

By English_Girl (English_Girl) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Going slightly off topic here, Pdoran, what's Sheffield uni like? What subject are you doing? I might be applying there next year

By Avs21 (Avs21) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Ariesathena,

How would law schools look at Tulane and UVA? Would there be much of a diffrence between the two?

Thank you

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Thx Aries, that Boston LAw Locator is very helpful indeed. As to your comments about GPA, they are pertinent; however, in England, no such grade inflation problems exist - as far as I know. What you see is what you get. Sheffield is an excellent university also. The league tables here vary year to year - much akin to the US - however, everybody knows what schools are good and what arent. The criteria the Times Universty guide uses is very unreliable, as you will see. In Sheffields case, the year I got in it was considered 10th, this year it has slipped to 22nd!! The same can be said for others. I short, it should be stuided with care - the same goes for the subject rankings.

The universities in England that are good are considered part of the "Russell" League.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Group_of_Universities

You can find the rankings this year at the Times website :

716%2C00.html,http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,716,00.html

English girl, could you email me to avoid this topic going off track - I would be more than happy to answer your questions. Also Avs, if you have another question, please start another topic. Thanks.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Pdoran: It has been a long time since I went to law school, so I'm not current on what it takes to get admitted. However, our family has just been through the college admissions process, which is similar to law school in its competitiveness among applicants for the top schools, at least.

No matter what your GPA and LSAT, all of the top schools are extremely competitive, and it's mathematically possible for an applicant with qualifications such as yours to be rejected at all of those schools.

As Ariesathena said in an earlier post, you need some safeties. You should consider which cities in the US you would like to emigrate to and apply to two or more good local law schools there. Local law firms tend to look to those when hiring.

If you are interested in practicing international law, then look at cities with substantial international business connections - New York, Boston, Washington, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami, Dallas, for example. If you're interested in a city for another reason - quality of life, climate, aesthetics, family, whatever, then look there. If you'll mention some cities, we will try to suggest good law schools for them.

By Aeolus (Aeolus) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 11:13 pm: Edit

This is a good topic. After receiving my MPhil in the UK, I also plan to apply to law school. Boalt Hall (Berkeley) is a great school but may be abit too close to home. I grew up in San Francisco. The bay area is very liberal and very student friendly. With that being said however, depending on my LSATs, I might be begging Cal to take me. NYU and Columbia are both great schools in the big city. I have a friend who loves Columbia so much that after he finished undergrad there he applied early decision Columbia law (he got in). NYU has a strong reputation in their public interest law. Michigan is also a great all around law school. I have two former high school friends who are attending U of M law school as well as some friends who graduated Michigan this year as undergrads. My friends enjoy it alot. Ann Arbor is a college town dominated by the university, very different from New York universities though there are similarities with Cal. One of my great friend will graduate from Georgetown law next year. he doesnt enjoy it that much and I think he hopes the sooner its over the better. The school has great connections in DC and good network with government jobs. DC is great. My friend who goes to Georgetown and I actually met in DC while as interns. Its a very political town with lots of activities all the time, just dont stray too far from NW quadrant. Dont know too much about the rest. As for your safety, USD is a solidy law school and has a beautiful campus. I love San Diego having gone undergrad in La Jolla. Its sunny, lots of outdoor opportunities and more laid back compared to the East coast and the SF bay area.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 03:23 am: Edit

I read that if you go to the top law schools, say, the ones mentioned, you can can start at a big law corporate firm on 125k. Is this correct? If I were to study at somewhere like San Diego, what quality of firm could I get into? Also, how possible are transfers generally? COuld you, hypthetically, go from Sna Diego to Harvard?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 10:36 am: Edit

UVA is considered to be one of the ten best law schools. Tulane is good, but not of that caliber.

Now, regarding salary: if you graduate from a top law school, you can earn $125k/year. If you graduate at the top of a good school, you can do the same.

Pick up a copy of USNews and World Reports for graduate schools. While the rankings are, um, not always a good measure of anything, there is a lot of good information in there. The back section has a list of where graduates end up (regions in the US) as well as the 25-75% salary range (where 25% of people make under a certain amount and 25% make over whichever amount) for private practice. Princeton Review has a Guide to Law Schools which is also quite good.

If you want to work in San Diego, studying at a school near there would be a great idea. There is heavy regional bias in recruiting for schools - almost every school save for Harvard and Yale are subject to it.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 10:55 am: Edit

Yeah, I heard that such regional issues come heavily into play. I guess thats why Columbia is so competative, not to mention its an outstanding school obviously. I suppose the good thing about studying in Calafornia is that surely if I graduated from San Diego, I could practise pretty much anywhere in Calafornia?

Also, does anyone know of a rankings table in regards to the best law schools for International Law?

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:23 am: Edit

US News International Law School Rankings, 2004

1. New York University
2. Columbia University (NY)
3. Georgetown University (DC)

Top 20 Law schools (general)

1. Yale University
2. Harvard University (MA)
3. Stanford University (CA)
4. Columbia University (NY)
5. New York University
6. University of Chicago
7. University of Michigan–Ann Arbor
University of Pennsylvania
9. University of Virginia
10. Duke University (NC)
Northwestern University (IL)
12. Cornell University (NY)
13. University of California–Berkeley
14. Georgetown University (DC)
15. University of Texas–Austin
16. University of California–Los Angeles
17. Vanderbilt University (TN)
18. University of Southern California
19. University of Minnesota–Twin Cities
20. George Washington University (DC)

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:38 am: Edit

Comparative Rankings for the Top 25

EQR---U.S. News Overall---Academic Rep---Insider's Guide---Gourman
1. Yale 1 1 1 3
2. Harvard 3 1 2 1
2. Chicago 6 3 6 4
4. Stanford 2 3 4 6
5. Columbia 5 3 5 7
6. NYU 4 6 9 11
7. UC Berkeley 8 6 7 5
8. U of Michigan 7 6 3 2
8. U of Virginia 8 9 8 16
10. Penn 12 10 10 9
10. U of Texas 15 12 11 12
12. Cornell 10 12 15 10
13. Northwestern 12 14 16 14
14. Georgetown 14 14 13 17
15. Duke 10 11 12 8
16. UCLA 16 16 14 13
17. U of Minnesota 19 18 17 19
17. Vanderbilt 18 17 21 15
19. Boston Univ. 32 24 n/a n/a
19. So. California 17 19 22 27
21. No. Carolina 22 19 n/a n/a
22. Emory 26 28 n/a n/a
22. George Wash. 23 24 20 32
24. U of Illinois 23 23 23 38
25. U of Colorado 45 40 n/a n/a
25. Notre Dame 26 26 n/a 18

limited formatting on cc. sorry. url is

http://www.hg.org/cgi-bin/redir.cgi?url=http://www.ilrg.com/rankings.html

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit

And, finally

YALE UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Administrative & Environmental Law; Business Law Areas; Constitutional Law; Criminal Law & Procedure; International Law; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Law & Economics; Legal Ethics; Legal History; Tax.
Also Strong: Law & Literature; Law & Religion; Moral & Political Theory.

HARVARD UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Business Law Areas; Constitutional Law; Criminal Law & Procedure; Feminist Legal Theory; Health Law (excluding medical ethics); Law & Economics; Legal History; Tax.
Also Strong: Critical Race Theory; International Law; Labor & Employment Law; Legal Ethics.

STANFORD UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Business Law Areas; Feminist Legal Theory; Intellectual Property; Law & Economics; Law & Literature; Legal Ethics; Legal History; Tax.
Also Strong: Constitutional Law.

UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
Excellent: Business Law Areas; Feminist Legal Theory; Law & Economics; Legal History.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law; Constitutional Law; Criminal Law & Procedure; Moral & Political Theory; Tax.

COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Business Law Areas; Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; Feminist Legal Theory; Health Law (excluding medical ethics); International Law; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Labor & Employment Law; Moral & Political Theory.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law (excellent in administrative); Constitutional Law; Intellectual Property; Law & Economics; Law & Literature; Legal History; Tax.

NEW YORK UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Administrative & Environmental Law; Business Law Areas; International Law; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Legal History; Moral & Political Theory; Tax.
Also Strong: Constitutional Law; Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; Health Law (excluding medical ethics); Intellectual Property; Labor & Employment Law; Law & Economics; Legal Ethics.

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY
Excellent: Critical Race Theory; Feminist Legal Theory; Intellectual Property; Law & Economics; Law & Social Science.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law; Business Law Areas; Constitutional Law; Criminal Law & Procedure; Legal History; Moral & Political Theory.

UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, ANN ARBOR
Excellent: Feminist Legal Theory; Law & Literature; Law & Social Science.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Health Law--Bioethics; Intellectual Property; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Labor & Employment Law; Law & Religion; Legal History; Moral & Political Theory; Tax.

UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA
Excellent: Administrative & Environmental Law; Criminal Law & Procedure; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Law & Social Science; Legal Ethics.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Critical Race Theory; Intellectual Property; Law & Economics; Moral & Political Theory; Tax.

UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, AUSTIN
Excellent: Administrative & Environmental Law; Constitutional Law; Health Law--Bioethics; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Labor & Employment Law.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; International Law; Intellectual Property; Law & Literature; Law & Social Science; Legal Ethics; Legal History; Moral & Political Theory.

UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA
Excellent: Business Law Areas; Legal History.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law; International Law; Law & Economics; Law & Social Science; Moral & Political Theory.

CORNELL UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Feminist Legal Theory; Labor & Employment Law.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; International Law; Law & Economics; Law & Social Science.

GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Administrative & Environmental Law; Critical Race Theory; Feminist Legal Theory; Health Law (excluding medical ethics); International Law; Legal Ethics.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Constitutional Law; Intellectual Property.

NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Administrative & Environmental Law; Law & Social Science.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; Health Law (excluding medical ethics); Legal History; Moral & Political Theory.

DUKE UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Health Law (excluding medical ethics); Law & Religion.
Also Strong: Critical Race Theory; Feminist Legal Theory; Intellectual Property; Law & Social Science.

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES
Excellent: Critical Race Theory; Feminist Legal Theory.
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Criminal Law & Procedure; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Law & Social Science; Moral & Political Theory.

UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
Excellent: ----.
Also Strong: Feminist Legal Theory; Health Law--Bioethics; Law & Economics; Law & Social Science; Legal History; Tax.

VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Health Law (excluding medical ethics).
Also Strong: Business Law Areas; Criminal Law & Procedure.

BOSTON UNIVERSITY
Excellent: Health Law--Bioethics; Legal Ethics.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law; Intellectual Property; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Moral & Political Theory.

GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY
Excellent: -----.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law; Critical Race Theory; International Law.

UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS
Excellent: Criminal Law & Procedure.
Also Strong: Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Labor & Employment Law; Law & Economics; Legal Ethics.

UNIVERSITY OF IOWA
Excellent: ----.
Also Strong: Critical Race Theory; Feminist Legal Theory; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Law & Social Science.

UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA, TWIN CITIES
Excellent: -----.
Also Strong: Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy.

UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN, MADISON
Excellent: Law & Social Science.
Also Strong: Feminist Legal Theory; Health Law--Bioethics.

UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA
Excellent: -----.
Also Strong: Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy.

UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN, MADISON
Excellent: Law & Social Science.
Also Strong: Feminist Legal Theory; Health Law--Bioethics.

UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA
Excellent: -----.
Also Strong: Critical Race Theory; Legal Ethics.

UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO, BOULDER
Excellent: Critical Race Theory.
Also Strong: Administrative & Environmental Law.

UNIVERSITY OF SAN DIEGO
Excellent: ----.
Also Strong: Criminal Law & Procedure; Jurisprudence/Legal Philosophy; Law & Religion; Legal Ethics.

OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY
Excellent: -----.
Also Strong: Criminal Law & Procedure; Feminist Legal Theory; Labor & Employment Law; Law & Social Science.

UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, GAINESVILLE
Excellent: -----.
Also Strong: Criminal Law & Procedure; Critical Race Theory; Tax.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Thx Noodleman, much appreciated.

I just thought I would add this, its a conversion I found on my depts. website for US students, its interesting, and suprising and VERY encouraging!

http://www.shef.ac.uk/history/current_students/undergraduate/appendices/appendix7.html

By Cama (Cama) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Noodleman Thanks so much for your very detailed info..It must have taken quite some time to compile. Will greatfully pass it on to my son. He is busing studying for the LSAT as I write.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Pdoran: From looking at your posts, I received the impression that you are at a relatively early stage of thinking about practicing law in the US as a career (which is not a problem at all, if true).

First of all, yes, graduates from the top law schools can make $ 125,000 per year - but competition for those spots is strong, just as it was to get into those schools. And if you are fortunate enough to be hired by one of those firms, be assured that you will earn every one of those dollars! Working at a law firm in the US is not like working at one in the UK - longer hours and more production (usually in terms of billable hours) are required for those top-paying jobs (as well as for somewhat lower-paying jobs in law firms). That is one reason why many attorneys become dissatisfied with their profession.

Practicing in California, or anywhere, does not depend on the location of the law school, but on passing the state's bar examination. Each state gives a separate one, though many give some credit for examination results from other states. There is no national examination, as in most countries. You do not have to be a resident of a state to take the bar examination, though you normally will have to have, or work at, an office in that state in order to practice law there.

So if you want to practice law in San Diego, for example, you can attend any law school in the country and take the California Bar examination. However, because of the difficulty of gaining admission to the top schools, if working in San Diego is a goal, you should also apply to some law schools in Southern California (anywhere from los Angeles southwards would be fine).

By Cama (Cama) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Oh since you seem so knowledgeable one more question. S has a 3.75 from UMass Amherst Honors college, who knows what LSAT score he will get but being realistic he wants to go to school in NYC so what about the lower ranked schools do you know what their specialities are? Cordoza, Fordham, Brooklyn Law, St. Johns? Any info on these schools would be greatly appreciated. Thanks ( or any other schools in the NYC vicinity)

By Barrons (Barrons) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Thanks for seconding my opinion Dadofsam. I have known so many burned out unhappy lawyers through my work that it just seems like a true deal with the devil job.

By Noodleman (Noodleman) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 04:26 pm: Edit

No problemo!

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Cama: I applied to Brooklyn, Cardozo, and Fordham. A few things about each (other opinions welcome!):

BROOKLYN:
One T stop away from Manhatten. Great reputation for those wanting to be DAs. Good public service. Located right across the street from the courthouse.

I toured once and went to an admitted students open house. BLS was always one of my top choices - I ended up going somewhere else for financial reasons. Gut-wretching decision, though - I was quite impressed with Brooklyn. Debt load would have been too much, though. The buildings are lovely; the faculty has an open-door policy, and the students actually get along with each other. Library is spectacular - and any law student will spend a lot of time there.

Clinical and public interest are good. They have some 18 different clinical programmes and keep adding new ones. A few students got to argue before the Second Court of Appeals this year.

BLS has the fourth highest placement in NYC firms, behind Columbia, NYU, and Fordham.

They provide apartments for their law students - rent is about $850/month, which is a lot lower than the surrounding area. Apts are new and nice - see "housing" on their website.

CARDOZO:
Great Intellectual Property reputation. I think they are also good in trial advocacy. I applied because they sent a fee waiver, but really did not like it. It's on 5th Avenue in Manhatten (which was a plus for me), but the physical plant was not good. It seems very cramped - very vertical, little space horizontally. Something about it when I toured really turned me off from it.

FORDHAM:
Unlike the undergrad campus, F. Law is in midtown Manhatten, across from the Filene Center, near Central Park. Third highest placement into NYC firms, and, according to my cousins who are attorneys in NYC, does place nearly comprably to Columbia and NYU. Their clinical programme is outstanding - could be wrong on the stats, but about 85 kids per semester do clinics. Building is very nice - could certainly envision myself studying there.

Fordham is definitely the most difficult of those schools to get in to. Check out their website though - they have an admissions grid with GPA, LSAT, and number accepted vs. number admitted. The 3.75 should help out - I think they are very GPA focused.

Brooklyn and Cardozo are sort of "sister schools" in terms of both being in NYC and having similar rankings.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Cama: There is also New York Law School (not to be confused with NYU), which is similar in nature to Brooklyn Law, but is located in lower Manhattan, not far from the muninicipal courts.

It's similar in nature to Brooklyn Law in that it is not affiliated with a university but has a very good local reputation and has been the source of many local attorneys, judges and politicians (both schools are over 100 years old).

By Cama (Cama) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Ariesthena and Dadofsam...Wow Thanks for all the useful info. Can someone please explain to a lay person what is intellectual property law. Thanks

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 08:57 pm: Edit

Cama: intellectual property law is the term currently used to refer to property that results from intellectual activity, i.e. creativity. It includes law relating to patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, usually also antitrust and other trade regulation law, sometimes some aspects of entertainment law such as music contracts.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 03:29 am: Edit

Brooklyn is a law school whose website I looked at, and liked the look of it.

However, I read that it it has a very vocational feel about it. Whereas, say, at Cornell, you get an excellent all-round education, at Brooklyn instead of asking philosophical questions and other academic issues, it focsuses not so much on academic traning; but rather, actually teaching you how to be a Lawyer.

I want to go somewhere where I get the adademic stimulation. I ask therefore, is there a summary of schools, and their focus/style?

thx

By Cama (Cama) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 07:58 am: Edit

Thanks so much Dadofsam....Will pass info on to son...Right now he is a little stressed out over LSAT will be taking it in October.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 09:55 am: Edit

Does anyone know the answer to my question?

Also, my suspicions that there were many people who apply to law school without any hope of getting in, thus artificlly spiking the statistics and making the odds of entry appear worse, have been confirmed.

Looking at the table shown in the below link, there ar 2700 people applying to Yale that have no chance of getting in, they have a LSAT of less than 159.

So although Yales official acceptance is 7 percent or so, if you attain a GPA of higher than 3.75 and an LSAT of over 170-175, you have a 25% chance of getting in.

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Admissions/admis-jdoverview.htm

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Pdoran: While it is true that getting a 3.75 and a 173 or so will get you a 25% chance of acceptance into Yale... those are aweseome, awesome stats. I know that, in my major, only one person (out of 24) got over a 3.6. A 170 LSAT is the 99.1 percentile; a 175 is something like a 99.5%. Someone from my alma mater had the following stats: 3.86 GPA, 176 LSAT, triple major, Fulbright scholar. Rejected from Yale and Stanford. Reality: really, really bright people do not get into those schools. 75% of people with a 3.75 and over a 170 LSAT will not get into Yale. Again, 38% of people overestimate themselves and do not get in anywhere. What are you going to do to be assured of not being one of those people? Arguing about how "easy" it is to get into Yale won't help.

I'm not going to argue with you further on this... it's ridiculous. You are, simply put, the only person I've ever heard of who thinks that getting into law school is easy.

To answer your question though... However, I read that it it has a very vocational feel about it. Whereas, say, at Cornell, you get an excellent all-round education, at Brooklyn instead of asking philosophical questions and other academic issues, it focsuses not so much on academic traning; but rather, actually teaching you how to be a Lawyer.

I want to go somewhere where I get the adademic stimulation. I ask therefore, is there a summary of schools, and their focus/style?

The higher ranked the school, the more tendancy towards philosophical leanings. There is a joke that you shouldn't go to Yale if you want to be a lawyer, because you don't learn how to be one. Now, some schools focus on training you to do things that you will need to do in the legal profession (either clerking for a judge or working as an associate), like briefing cases, drafting, editing, researching on WestLaw and Lexis-Nexis. BLS does a great job of teaching how to research legal issues, use Westlaw and Lexis, writing briefs, etc.

Most law schools will have some sort of Legal Writing or Legal Methods class, which teaches you how to be a lawyer. At some schools, the courses aren't rigorous; that isnt' a good thing. The best lawyers are often the best writers, so finding a school where writing is taken seriously is a good thing.

I don't know of any formal list of which schools are more philosophical and which are more professional. In some regards (and those in or finished with law school can comment) you will learn the same things at any law school. You will read the same cases, be asked similar questions in class, and use the same hornbooks and outlines.

From what I have heard, regardless of where you go, you will have professors who will ask challenging, difficult questions in class, who will push you. The workload will be intense. The competition at almost any school will be intense.

Read One L by Scott Turow for an overview of the first year of law school. Read Law School Confidential by Robert Miller for an idea of what law school today is like, and what the admissions are like. Both will open your eyes.

By Pdoran (Pdoran) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 03:28 am: Edit

Thx for the info.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not arrogant, nor do I want to suggest getting into Yale or anywhere else is easy. My point was merely that the stats look worse than they are because people apply with no chance of getting in, either with really poor LSATS's or GPA's. Thats all.

I will check out those books you mentioned, they look really great thanks.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:36 am: Edit

You are welcome.