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CONTINUED FROM PART 17.

Shauna

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

When it rains, it pours! I have had the good fortune to go to several wonderful Broadway and off Broadway production in the last few weeks as I was in NYC several times. And, yes, the big boy MT schools were represented on the bios in those little programs that are given out. But more often than not no school was mentioned. I believe on one of the Parts of this forum a list of famous MT types and their colleges were compiled, and they certainly came from everywhere.

It is human nature to want to make a try for the schools that have the names, the HPY of MT schools, and I am sure my S will be giving it a whirl. But I am also aware that the best program for him, for his personal development in the field may not be one of those schools. And I really do not feel this is a field one want to go into debt for before really hitting the pavement for a job. My very dear friend has a stepson who is a Tisch graduate, and they are still supporting this young, talented man 5 or 6 years out of school. The few gigs he gets and the part time jobs he juggles would not cover living in NYC, much less the health insurance premiums that his family feels are a necessity. In retrospect, she tells me that he would probably be a bit better off had he studied something else and took studio courses, which he still has done, after college. There are many of his colleagues who have done this. We had a wonderful dinner at a wonderful restaraunt staffed with MT prospects. Now I am sure this young man and his colleagues will eventually settle into some career and will be out of their family's pockets, and it may well end up being theatre related. He may yet become a star, but was Tisch the best route for him? Who knows? I know his family would currently love to have the $100K+ they paid for him to get his degree to help him in these lean years. A full ride looks awfully good in retrospect.

One young lady I did meet who is currently working in a production, not as a performer, but as staff, got her MFA at a prestigious program and was quite frank with us about her journey into this field. She is considered successful as she can pay her way though she is not doing quite what she wants. She went to a small state program that I cannot even recall as she did not get into her first choices, and reluctantly decided her family and she could not afford the choices she did get, and this school offered an affordable deal. She got ever so much experience and opportunities those four years, and grew to a level where she was on equal footing to many who were accepted to programs where she was not. For her, that was a time of growth that was well spent, and then more mature, more ready, more prepared she got her MFA from Yale. There are many roads to success in this field, and I wish for all of these young people with stars in their eyes and a dance in their toes, that they find a program that will best prepare them for the future.

By Lookingmt (Lookingmt) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 04:06 am: Edit

I must agree with nickdad and txmom 100%. Don't put a price tag on your education just cause it's affordable. How affordable is unemployment?

A girl in our high school made the MT audition rounds (and yes..go to early auditions when possible..more money!!). She was accepted into CCM, Point Park, and another school I won't mention. CCM gave her little money. Point Park a fairly decent sum. But the small school gave her a full ride. Without thinking or examining the facts, she acepted the full ride. She certainly could have afforded (with loans, grants) to attened either other school.

She got to the school and found out that she was one of five MT majors (she was told they only accept 12 a year..hmm..what happened??). Once classes beagn, she realized that this department was unorganized and not well stocked to assist her studies. The "dance department" she had meet on audition day did not work for the school. They were hired to do the "dance" audition.

She left after a semester and, of course, was unable to retain her acceptance to CCM or Point Park.

Now..this is just one person's experience and by no means the norm. But I hope those who have options will examine them closely. In today's world a full ride is great. But, as Txmom so beautifully stated, when you're in NY and going up against those who have the best training possible, a full ride isn't so fullfilling.

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 07:11 am: Edit

Early Decision /BFA programs

So...it seems to be true in general that applying early decision might increase your chances of admission (reading elsewhere at this cc site) for a standard college application.

But what if you're applying for a BFA major in a college/univ with auditions? Assume two candidates with equal academic credentials...Does auditioning early as an ED candidate give one any better chance of admission?

By Cama (Cama) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:50 am: Edit

My sister got a BFA in voice from Mannes . She is now in the Director's guild with alot of freelance work. Before that worked for MTV etc. So there are many different routes to get to where you want to be. I do not know if you need aan MFA, It seems alot of networking and great internships paved the way for her. Her husband is producer for Great Performances (PBS) and also got a degree from a small liberal arts college, does not have a Masters, again alot of networking , knowing people in the business etc.

By Gkoukla (Gkoukla) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 07:10 pm: Edit

Jamimom, you are very insightful. I appreciated your post very much. I, too, hardly ever see the "big boy" schools mentioned in the Playbills. What's the answer? I still don't know, but I do know that becoming the best musician one can be is a priority, not just regular MT classes. You and your son know whats best for him. Good luck.

By Artsymom (Artsymom) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Hi All -- I originally posted this on Part 16, then realized you'd gotten way ahead of me! So I'm just copying it here. This is my first posting on this board, though I've been a "drop in" for several months. You folks have so much information and are so generous with it -- I really appreciate that.

My D is finishing her junior year and (no surprise on this board!!) is passionate, heart and soul, about MT. She's been in all her school shows (two musicals/year, plus other concerts and showcases), has had private voice lessons for several years, and also has a lot of high-level choral experience both in and out of school. Her singing really is extremely strong. Dancing's OK; acting's where she definitely lacks experience. This summer she'll be doing a local MT program that looks as though it will be nicely intensive for voice, dance and acting.

We're on the east coast and have done some college looking. She loved Ithaca, liked UArts a lot, didn't particularly care for Emerson and hated Syracuse. We also went to Chicago and saw Roosevelt, which she didn't like, and Columbia College Chicago, which she loved. I haven't seen much at all about Columbia on this board, and I'm wondering what you guys know about it. I know it's different from a lot of the schools you discuss -- no audition, BA rather than BFA -- but for whatever reason it struck such a chord (pun intended!) with my D that I'd really like to hear any opinions.

One issue we're grappling with in figuring out where she should apply is that her GPA is far from stellar. Although she excels in all her arts subjects (she has some visual arts interests as well as music), her academic grades are erratic. And she's not a good tester. We were going to visit Miami but decided it was probably pointless. Is that correct? What about at, e.g., Ithaca? One other fact I almost hate to mention, but I think it might be relevant: she's a minority, which she thinks might boost her chances at a place like Ithaca, which has a low percentage of minority students.

I'd so welcome any thoughts/advice/commiseration. Thank you!!

By Wct (Wct) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Artsymom-

If your daughter works on her acting skills so that she feels her acting is on par with her singing strength she should look at CMU. Her minority status could be a boost and she doesn't have to worry too much about her GPA. CMU looks for strong actors in MT so that would be something to take into consideration.

By Inkyblb (Inkyblb) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Artsymom -

I think Columbia is more of a straight acting curriculum, and the BA is more overall theater study than performance. It definitely is not a program that emphasizes triple threat training. Not sure, but it may not be an audition school. And, I agree, being a minority can only help at most every school, and what Wct posted might also be true for Miami and Ithaca. After following this site for a while, and hearing situations of my son's friends, there are exceptions at every school. The only school I know of where you have to pass academic muster before being granted an audition appointment is U of Michigan - even at NYU they consider both simultaneously (academics and audition) - anyone know of any others like UofM?

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Hello to all. I apologize for not responding to some of the questions sooner, but the end of the year is just as crazed here as it is in every other school, and in addition I spent last weekend in Boston at my son Andrew's graduation from college. My wife and I were as proud of him as I know you will be when your children do the same.

TxMom asked about numbers and Wct asked about the boy/girl ratio. I do believe that CCM sees somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 for MT, from which they choose 22-24. And I know from my friend Terrell Finney (Aubrey Berg's boss) that CCM has about a 90% acceptance rate. But I'm really uncertain about numbers of auditionees at other programs. If I were to include all the students who applied to my school and listed Musical Theatre or Acting as their first major, plus all the students I see at Thespian conventions and other mass auditions, the number would easily exceed 1000. But of those, only 214 actually scheduled an audition either on campus or at one of the Unified sites this year. Do other schools actually see more than we do? I'm certain many do. But I'll see if I can find out accurate numbers from my colleagues in other programs.

As for boy/girl ratio, the breakdown for us this year was as follows:

Women: 101 MT, 43 ACT = 144
Men: 47 MT, 23 ACT = 70

Pretty easy to see that there are twice as many women as men auditioning. My colleagues confirm that our case is not unique. Since we offer admission to equal numbers of men and women (8 in MT, 8 in ACT), that means it is twice as difficult for women as for men to gain entrance to the top programs. As I said in an earlier post, I wish it were different. It will be when some of those very, very bright women out there who want to Act decide (instead or in addition) to learn how to Write plays and musicals with parts for more women than men.

Theatermom asked my feelings about "cut" policies. Almost all schools have dropped them, as they used to exist. When I started teaching in the 70's, it wasn't unusual to admit a class of 40 and cut it in half at the end of the sophomore year. As a young junior faculty member and undergraduate advisor, it was my task to tell students that they weren't going to continue in the BFA program, a decision which had been made by my senior colleagues. The pain of my advisees convinced me that I never wanted to be part of such a system again. I suspect many of my contemporaries felt the same, and we're now running those programs. I completely agree with Brent Wagner at Michigan who says (to paraphrase Theatermom), that the "job of the faculty... is to provide a challenging, demanding, professional academic environment that feels safe enough to support the taking of the kind of risks that students are going to be asked to take." While that may and should include standards which all students must meet, it doesn't include arbitrary cuts in order to get numbers down to manageable levels in the upper division classes.

The marketplace may have had some effects as well. Parents are much smarter and better informed than they were 30 years ago, and Theatermom is not alone in saying that she never would have allowed her daughter to attend a program where she might be cut, even if she were doing as well as she could. Faced with a prestigious program with a "cut" system, she could take her business elsewhere; and as long as there is an "elsewhere" that is equally prestigious, a school with a non-cut system has a market advantage.

I prefer to believe that it is the growth in understanding among my contemporaries that cut systems are unethical that has led to the changes. But whatever the reason, I do know that CMU dropped their system a decade ago, and I have heard that both DePaul and Boston University have abandoned theirs recently.

But a caring parent and a smart student will ask, as I suggested in a post back on January 25, "How many students do you admit, how many of those will graduate, and when and how do you make the decision about who continues?" The answer is critical.

Best wishes to all.

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 07:13 am: Edit

Drjohn, and others -
I'm still confused about cut policies.

You said:
"I completely agree with Brent Wagner at Michigan who says (to paraphrase Theatermom), that the 'job of the faculty... is to provide a challenging, demanding, professional academic environment that feels safe enough to support the taking of the kind of risks that students are going to be asked to take.' While that may and should include standards which all students must meet, it doesn't include arbitrary cuts in order to get numbers down to manageable levels in the upper division classes."

And Otterbein's website says
"Students are evaluated annually and must meet professional standards to complete the BFA program."

I really want to get at the heart of this issue, because I don't understand this. How is Otterbein's system (and others like it, including Ithaca's evaluations and Syracuse's juries) different from a cut system? Would any school would say its cuts are "arbitrary"? Probably not.

Probably they would all say that the cuts are based on kids not achieving some standard. Perhaps the difference lies in what the "professional standards" clause means? And maybe that means different standards at each school. For example, I can see the justification for cutting someone out who repeatedly comes late to class or rehearsal, or who is inconsiderate in other ways of fellow students or professors. That seems very different from cutting someone who is not making sufficient creative progress.

Emerson's stated policy of "re-auditioning" everyone after sophomore year suggests a cut may be possible based on lack of talent development or something.

I wish this whole area were not so murky, and I wish every school would make their policies/procedures clear in their literature. If there is a vague bar to jump in order to stay in an expensive program, some may choose not to apply to that school.

Without clear publication of these policies, I guess all one can do, as you suggested, is ask direct questions at each school.

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 09:15 am: Edit

JrMom:

You ask a very good question. I may not be able to answer it today, but I will do my best by the weekend. In the meantime, here's how I answered a similar question in January:

By Cato (Cato) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 05:20 pm

There have been several mentions on here about retention. Do MT programs cut people subjectively, or is it like any other college program where you need to keep a certain objective and pre-determined GPA?

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 05:49 pm

Cato:

It depends on the school. Almost all MT and other performance BFA programs now admit a limited number of students and then do evaluations on a regular basis, which can be as often as the end of each term. Evaluations usually involve a meeting with the faculty, and sometimes may include mini-performances, or "juries", in voice, dance, and acting. (In this respect, we are not much different than music conservatories, which have been doing this kind of thing for centuries.)

Grades are important, but so is "progress" and that is a judgment call by the faculty. As a result of evaluations, students may be put on probation, and in extreme situations, asked to leave the program. There is almost always a great deal of advance warning in those cases.

However, there are some programs (many fewer now than there used to be) which admit a larger number of students than they can carry all the way through to completion. Inevitably, they have to make hard decisions about who will continue in the program. Often those decisions are made at the end of the sophomore year.

What happens to students who are asked to leave the MT program depends on the school. Many schools have other degree programs which students can transfer into, and give them credit for all the coursework they have done up to that point. Some do not.

It's a critical question, and one which I recommend all parents and prospective students ask of every program. Just say, nicely, "How many students do you admit, how many of those will graduate, and when and how do you make the decision about who continues?"

It would be very interesting to all of us to hear the various answers to that question.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

I have difficulty with a school making cuts based on talent...they admit you based on an evaluation and I am not into dismissing someone partway through college cause they think the student is not talented enough to "make it". I think this is education, not the work world.

I would not have a problem (speaking as an educator myself) of a student not being allowed to continue in any kind of school program (not just MT) who is not complying with expectations such as grades (failing), cutting classes too much, and other criteria that is not talent based. Even for those kids, however, I think there can be an academic probation period to bring up those areas. There does need to be expectations in an educational setting, no doubt about it. But I do not think that talent should be one of those expectations for graduating. It is an expectation for being admitted, sure. After that, things like effort, grades, attendance, other important efforts, need to happen. But just saying someone's talent is not good enough, should not take them out of a program. What is the worst that can happen with that student finishing the program? The student just may not have good career prospects.

Schools should be clear about these policies though, I agree. And people would know up front what the deal was before entering such a program. Clearly in other academic areas, kids are not "cut" unless they do not meet grades and criteria of that sort. They are not evaluated, however, if they are good enough to stay.

Susan

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 12:01 pm: Edit

So let me try to start a list of what I know so far about schools and their cuts:

1) CMU - no cuts
2) Emerson - have to "re-audition" sophomore year
3) Syracuse - sophomore "juries"
4) Ithaca - 5 "reviews" in the first 2 years
5) Otterbein - students are evaluated annually

It's an interesting point - having admitted students with some promise and credentials, do English departments "cut" their undergraduates who aren't writing up to standard? If the students are really writing badly, they flunk out. If they are simply not among "the best", then they go on to graduate, but may not find immediate success as a novelist or be a successful non-fiction writer. But noone cuts them from a program at age 19-20.

Why the difference?

By Garrettc (Garrettc) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 12:27 pm: Edit

I'm a newcomer to this. Is it necessarily a bad thing if a certain MT school does not have a "Senior Showcase" to NYC or LA? Or conversely, how important is it to be at a school which offers a "Senior Showcase?" How many MT schools or what percentage of total number of MT schools offer a Senior Showcase. Thanks,

GC

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Repeat from April 04 for newcomers:
***********************
Updated senior showcase list (again, I have not personally confirmed any of these, I'm just compiling the information other people have posted):

Baldwin-Wallace
Ball State (seniors must audition)
Boston Conservatory
CCM
CMU (senior leagues in NY and LA)
Florida State
Hartt
Ithaca
Millikin
Northwestern
NYU (industry nights)
Otterbein
Penn State
Point Park
Syracuse does sometimes.
U. of Miami (FL)
U. of Michigan
U. of the Arts
Wagner
Webster
Wright State

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 07:38 am: Edit

First, let's divide the issues. One has to do with numbers. The other with evaluations.

Numbers

It used to be that many schools would admit more students than they could graduate in a performance degree program. The primary reason was that departments were under pressure from administrators to admit a large number of students, based on economic models. But at the same time, administrations were not willing to fund the number of faculty required to teach those students all the way through.

Here's the problem. You can't effectively teach acting to a class of much more than 16. It is difficult for administrations to understand that. The predominant model in college teaching is still the lecture, and there is no limit to the number of people who can listen to lectures. Some students will listen, some won't, and you find that out on the test. Unless the tests have to be graded by hand, there's almost no limit to the number of students who can be taught this way.

Not so acting. It is kinesthetic, intellectual and emotional work, and it requires feedback, lots of it, from the teacher. If an acting class meets 8 hours/week, and you have 16 students, everyone gets roughly a half-hour of individual instruction per week. That's adequate. Now imagine what happens if the class meets 3 hours/week and you have 30 students. Six minutes per week of individual feedback is completely inadequate.

Knowing this, most departments have done their best to limit acting class sizes to around 16 and to raise the contact hours as far as possible. But that requires a lot of personnel, and many colleges simply could not provide the necessary faculty to teach the added number of sections. You all need to understand that Theatre departments are in a competitive environment for resources within the university. English, Biology and History need faculty too, not to mention the money that Financial Aid wants for scholarships and Student Affairs needs to renovate the dorms.

So what is a department to do? In the past, many used a "cut" system. They would admit the 40 plus which the administration wanted, teach multiple sections of the beginning work, and then cut the class at the end of the sophomore year. After two years of work, they believed, they could see who had progressed and who had not, and they could make meaningful and fair decisions.

They couldn't. And the reason has to do with statistics, which theatre faculty typically don't study. Imagine a class of 40. Standard distribution and common sense tell you that 10 will be at the top in terms of any measure you like--talent, work ethic, progress--and 10 at the bottom. But 20 will be in the middle, and the closer you get to the middle, the fewer the differences between individual students. Anybody can choose the top five from any group of 40, and release the bottom five. (Look at American Idol.) The next five are reasonably clear. But then it gets harder. By the time you're trying to make choices about numbers 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, there's almost nothing to distinguish students. And then it becomes a matter of taste. When that happens, the most powerful faculty member wins, and what that happens, students learn from the moment they walk through the door whom they have to please. You can imagine the results.

That old approach, which is what I mean by a "cut" system, has almost disappeared. CMU abandoned it years ago, as I said, and so did SMU, which is where I taught in the 70's. It is painful, nearly impossible to administer, destructive of morale, and finally detrimental to the goals of training. In its place, schools have adopted a variety of approaches. One is to admit only as many as they can teach all the way through. CMU does that now, as do we. Another is to create different tracks. SMU has a BFA in Acting, but also a BFA in Theatre Studies. Everyone gets the same acting classes in the first two years, but then the students go in different directions in the last two years. Students know from the beginning what track they're in. NYU does a version of this, by sending students off to different studios.

Another approach is to have students audition after a year or two to get into the upper-division work. Northwestern does this with its MT program. And virtually every public university with open admissions has no choice but to use this approach. I believe that all these systems are fair, as long as schools are clear about it up front.

But there are still some schools, I suspect, which have the old "cut" system, which cannot be fairly administered, I believe. Caveat emptor. I would tell you which ones, but honestly I don't know, but it would be unethical of me to guess.

Evaluations are a different matter. Unfortunately, it's 7:30 now, and I've got to get to work. I will write about evaluation systems--which are not the same as "cut" systems--this weekend.

Hope this helps.

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:15 am: Edit

Doctorjohn,
I already understand this issue better after your post. The historical context helps a lot.

Thanks. Can't wait to read the next chapter about evaluations.

thanks again!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:50 am: Edit

Doctonjohn....that is very helpful indeed. I am amazed at your willingness to take the time and share your experience and knowledge on these forums. It is very helpful to get your perspectives on that end of things. Your contributions are invaluable and much appreciated. I think if you are devoting this much time to students/parents here, your students at Otterbein are very lucky to have you at the helm.

Susan

By Artsymom (Artsymom) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Doctorjohn, thank you so much for your thoughtful and thorough information. Thank you also to Wct and Inkyblb for your helpful responses to my concerns about my D's GPA. I know I'll have many more questions in the months to come as we slog through this process. I hope that in due time I'll also be able to come up with some answers for other questioning souls!!

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Thanks, y'all. (Other than my two boys, who were born there, that expression is the very best thing I took out of Texas.) I've started work on the Evaluation section, but it's fairly complex and may take a few days. In the meantime, everyone please have a safe and joyous holiday!

By Nickdad (Nickdad) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

CCM still does use the cut system. I've been reading an on line journal from the girl who is the understudy Millie on the TMM tour. She states that she and many others were "cut" (told they were not performing up to standards) at the end of their freshmen year.

In my opinion, the cut program is an insult to students and parents. Here you bring someone into the program and say "you're great" and then, a year later, say "you're not great" and drop them. If a school is not able to make that evaluation at the time of the audition, then it is the school's fault. And I'm not talking about a kid who flunks all their classes or doesn't show up to lessons. I'm talking about these schools who feel that someone has not progressed to the schools satisfaction in their first year enough. By cutting these students early, you'll never know what they could progrss to in their sophomore, junior or senior years. As Patti Lupone once stated in an interview, if Julliard has a cut program her freshman year, she would have been out. She didn't really start developing till late her sophomore year year.

A school's job is to see the potential in each of their students. Why is so hard for a school to retain students who might not be all the way there in the hopes that they might blossom in the near future? Class size shouldn't be the issue. If it is then that's the schools fault. One thing I like about OCU is that they have no more than 14 in a class.

Also...what happens to all the money parent's spent for their child to be at that school for a year? Since these students are suddenly deemed not good enough to be at that school, why is money not refunded? Seems like a good way (as stated above) for schools to get some extra funding.

Thanks

By Valerie (Valerie) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Thanks Doctorjohn.

Your informative information is VERY helpful and enlightening. It is much appreciated.

Valerie

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:03 am: Edit

Resume question:

Should the theater resume (or whatever you call it) that a student submits as part of the college application ONLY have 9-12 grade activities, roles, training?

Or everything? (ballet - 8 years, etc) Roles in school plays/musicals prior to 9th grade? Roles in professional theater prior to 9th grade?

thanks!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 11:09 am: Edit

Jrmom, that is an interesting quesition and I look forward to the responses. My child will be applying to MT programs next fall. Her current theatrical resume includes training and theater roles before high school. It is her resume we have always used and gets updated.

My other daughter, currently a senior, applyied to college but not for theater, of course only listed her high school activities which is the typical thing for a regular college application. However, even on HER application and resume materials, she added how many years she had been doing the activity because they were lifelong endeavors, not just in high school.....so while she may have listed tap dance, for example, grade 9-12, she added in paranthesis "10 years". Of course, this is not a theatrical resume.

But my theater kid's current resume has all training (she also adds number of years in each category of training because I think it differs if a kid took voice for 5 years from someone who took a workshop, or also if someone has been dancing for for 14 years, it should indicate that). But right now, she also has many roles on her resume that are before high school. She has taken some roles off the resume that are either younger or less significant as over the years the resume got too long so she had to eliminate some things, but overall it definitely has experiences prior to high school. I was thinking she will be submitting this to college.

I have not begun to think about it much and we will be starting on all that come August (I have a senior who I just finished the college process with!), but you raised an excellent question that I hope those who have already applied to MT programs might share what they did.

Susan

By Wct (Wct) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Jrmom-

Our S used the same resume he includes with his head shot when going to auditions for his college applications for college conservatory applications. There are a lot of wonderful examples of professional looking theatrical resumes on the web that you can use as a guide. These resumes incude productions you have been in, training, and special skills, (like dance, etc.).

This resume should be included with a resume that most colleges like to see of the student's high school activities, (extra curricular, including student government, clubs, sports, academic awards, etc.).
Most high school counselors are familiar with this type of resume but don't have a clue about the theatrical resume.

Below you can find some examples of a theatrical resume. It is not that difficult to use these examples and apply it to your students experiences.

http://www.lowt.org/audition/resumes.html

http://www.ariafilms.com/casting/headshots/example.htm

http://theater.about.com/library/blsampres.htm

By Musicalthtrmom (Musicalthtrmom) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Wct..
many thanks for the great links. The first, in particular, will help us "fine tune" daughter's resume (yet) again.

By Malloryr (Malloryr) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

hey guys! i just wanted to say good luck to everyone starting MT programs this fall. As for me, I leave for NYC june 22nd to start orientation for summer semester at AMDA, then start classes on june 28th! i can't believe it's finally here! anyway, thanks again to everyone for their awesome advice and support. once classes get underway, i'll definitely update and finally get to give some conservatory insight to go along with everyone's BA/BFA insight!

By Jrmom (Jrmom) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Wct, thanks! But I noticed that none of these examples put the year in the resume...for example,

2001 Eliza Doolittle Anonymous High School Drama Club New York, NY

2000 Dorothy Ye Olde Community Theatre New York, NY

etc.

So...to ask another picky question - shouldn't the college theatrical resume give some indication of the year that the student had the role?

I can understand why a professional resume would not have the year - who cares? But I would think that a college program would want to see the student's progress/development via the resume?

By Txmommtpbd (Txmommtpbd) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Jr Mom -
For my son's performance resume, we broke it up into 5 sections: Productions for Youth, Professional Productions, Film/Video/Recordings, Training, and Awards.

Under the Youth Production category, we included only high school shows. Under the Professional and the Film/et al categories, we included everything (even those before high school). This let us keep the resume to one page. Training included all the years, which I do think the colleges consider important.

For the 2 production sections, each was divided in columns with the show name and month & year, then his role, and finally the name of the director/producer.

As Wct explained, you will need to put together a standard high school resume as well and also send it with the application. Lots to do! Good luck with it all!
TX Mom

By Momsearch (Momsearch) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit

I was just watching a news report in Dallas and they just featured a story on an Oklahoma City University musical theater student who was just named Radio's Next Star.

She won some national radio contest and won $50,000, an album from Sony, and a management contract with William Morris. She said she owed it all to OUC and her voice teacher.

Boy..OCU keeps putting out winners!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 01:43 am: Edit

We never put the year of the production. Also as Txmomm does, we have always broken theater productions on the resume down into two categories, one being for youth productions (school and summer theater program) and the other for adult productions (community theater, regional, professional).

One thing I am glad you experienced parents have noted is that you can send both the theatrical resume and the typical extracurricular resume to colleges. I was sort of wondering about that.

Susan

By Emilyp114 (Emilyp114) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 09:19 am: Edit

Soozievt,

Just for your daughter's info, because I know she's interested in Tisch, the drama resume is handed in with a headshot at the audition. It's not sent with the application as it may be at other colleges.

By Mtmommy (Mtmommy) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Are schools ever interested in anything beyond a performance resume and typical college app. resume? My daughter's counselor told her a year ago to make a portfolio/scrapbook of all her accomplishments to show to colleges. This is supposed to have all her performing arts stuff, as well as academic honors, volunteer work, etc. We've also been encouraged to videotape her choreography, her solos, her monologues, her dancing--not that we needed any encouragement in that area. lol But I don't see where any of this stuff will ever be useful in the college application/auditioning process. Does anyone have any insights into any of this? It sounds like a resume and then "let's see what you can do in the next ten minutes, kid."

By Wct (Wct) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Mtmommy,

In our experience we were told by a counselor to keep a file box for 9th-12th grade. We were told to file all types of things, awards, extra curriculars, certificates, club information, leadership, scholarship's awarded, etc. It made things real easy when it came time to list accomplishments and years spent in clubs, musicals, choir, band, etc. on the application forms for colleges.

If you don't have these things handy and in order from 9th-12th grade you may want to spend some time getting that organized prior to filling out apps.

Have a file handy for SAT and SAT II scores, any State testing results, teacher recommendations, transcripts, (official and unofficial) from high school and any college your child took classes at, financial aid info, etc.

We made a file for every college our son applied to. It kept things very organized and easy to find when you needed it. Copies of essays and applications went in there too.

We were never told that videos would be needed and in our experience no one ever asked for that kind of thing. But it is better to be prepared for anything and everything!

By Psucat (Psucat) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Mtmommy-
I think its a very good idea to tape solos, dancing, etc. because (knock on wood) you never know what could happen before an audition. This past year, a girl broke her foot at another college audition (talk about bad luck!) and thankfully had a tape of a dance concert she was in to show the faculty. Others had lost their voice and handed in solo tapes as well. It's always nice to have a backup!

By Dramamama (Dramamama) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Mtmommy,

It seems with the very limited amount of time that each student is given to audition, that I can't imagine any school looking through it( scrapbook). However, it's such a nice thing to have for your child to keep and certainly might help in the preparation of the resume.

By Emilyp114 (Emilyp114) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Mtmommy,

I know a lot of kids who have done the college audition thing over the past 3-4 years and I've never heard of one who needed that type of scrapbook or videos, etc. In fact, many schools, NYU included, specifically tell you not to send (or bring) any additional materals because they will not be considered. I do agree, though, that that kind of thing is nice to have as a memento. My mom does one for me every year!

By Mtmommy (Mtmommy) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Thanks for your feedback. That's pretty much what I was starting to figure out. I don't know why the counselor said to do that--it takes a lot of time--and we'd rather have a pretty scrapbook, rather than a "professional" looking one. But starting to collect everything, inc. test scores, maaakes a lot of sense to me. One mistake I already made was as I dropped stuff off my d's resume to make room, I forgot to keep them on some "master resume" and now will haev to try to remember stuff.

That is a good point about keeping the videos in case something happens though.

By Theatermom (Theatermom) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 09:52 pm: Edit

For the "It's not quite time yet, but will be before you know it" file....

I developed some ways of systematizing the MT college app process that made it close to bearable:

1. I bought a big flip-type calendar and noted on it the available audition dates for each school my D was considering. Once they were all on there, it made it easier to try and figure out what would work logistically. I then made a list of first choice audition dates for all the schools and a back up plan in case we weren't given our first choice.

2. I made a chart with each school down the side and then across the page after each school, a notation of what was required for auditions i.e., how many monologues, the type, how long they could be; how many songs, length, type; dance auditions, yes or no, and what type (ballet? a class? jazz? tap?) Having it all in one place made it easier to see where it might be possible to use the same material and where different things might be needed.

3. I had a list of the colleges and the due dates for applications, what supplementary info was required (most schools had a supplementary arts application in addition to the regular university or college app), whether and what material had to be submitted before an audition date would be confirmed, what type of recommendations were needed (it varies by school - some academic recs, but also recs from performing arts teachers, some wanted school teachers, some wanted private), etc.

4. Lastly, like WCT, we made a file drawer with hanging files for the info from each school. Everything related to that school was placed in the folder. If you want to be pathologically organized like I can be (and was), you can keep a small binder where you have a small section for each school. I listed the important phone numbers and the addresses and made note of each contact I had with the school - who I talked to and when, what info I was given. I can't tell you how helpful it was to have that little book when all the admissions offices and officers started to meld into one big blur. I didn't have to go rooting through the file drawer to find a phone number or verify some piece of information.

A little obsessive? maybe. But I don't regret one minute of the time I spent setting these systems up. My D had access to all the info she needed to fill out her applications and write her essays and I coordinated the submission process. We were quite a team and I know she was extremely grateful for the help. These kids have so much on their plates in the fall of their senior year, and although I know that many kids manage this on their own, I don't know how they do it. My hat's off to those who can. I'm glad my D and I were able to do it together.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 11:38 pm: Edit

Theatermom, those are great tips you provided. Having just been through the college process with my senior, I know how important it was to be thoroughly organized, plus have time lines and so forth along the lines of what you mentioned, though she was not a MT applicant (next one is).

Emily, thanks for thinking of my daughter. I figured in an audition, one would be handing over the headshot and theatrical resume. Then I guess with the college app, you hand in the regular activity/awards style resume.

I cannot focus on this right now honestly but will come August. Tons of events in my kids' lives as the school year winds down, almost nightly. For one of my kids, it is the last this or that (tonight last band and jazz band concert). As soon as graduation ends, the younger one leaves for summer theater program. So, as far as her college process, it is in a holding pattern of sorts, other than the testing....which might wind down with this Saturday's SAT. I am sure I will be full of questions for you experienced MT college moms/dads/students when we get back into the immersion of that process.

By Musicalthtrmom (Musicalthtrmom) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 08:26 am: Edit

Theatermom...
Thanks for the advice on your system for approaching the MT audition/application process. I had already done 1 and 2 and 4 on my own so I guess I'm headed in the right direction! Thanks for suggesting 3...I'll get right on it!
One question....I'm sure it varies from school to school...but...when were you able to begin scheduling auditions? Did that really not start until September or were you able to do it sooner in some cases?
I'm grateful for all you parents of 2004 graduates hanging around for we parents of 2005 graduates...we certainly appreciate all your advice!

By Theatermom (Theatermom) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 10:39 am: Edit

Musicaltheatermom,

I checked websites towards the end of the summer to see if the schools had posted their audition dates for the coming year. When that information was available, it was helpful. However, we got most of our information with the application materials that were sent to us. Most of the schools had a section in their arts supplements for requesting an audition date. There were a few exceptions however.

BTW, you can call, email or write any of the schools you are the least bit interested in any time now. Their materials will likely not be ready but they'll put your child on the mailing list and send the stuff as soon as its ready.

Of the schools my D applied to, here is my recollection of how we scheduled her auditions (remember, any school can change its policy from year to year....)

Michigan: requested on application; however, must submit all application materials and the University reviews these and then the Music School formally invites the student to audition (I think we got an email first and then a follow up letter) Only then did they confirm the audition date we had requested in the app.

CMM - requested in app. They don't confirm unitl very close to the date, less than a month away as I recall

CMU - requested in app, confirmed by letter

Syracuse - let us request a date on the phone and confirmed the date on the spot, prior to receipt of all app/recs etc - very user friendly

Penn State - also let us schedule audition date by phone in advance of receipt of app.

Emerson - requested in app, confirmed by mail (Early Action audition)

NYU Steinhardt - went to Open House Audition day (one of 2 offered) in November - it was a great idea for us and worked out very well.

Boston Conservatory - requested on the app, confirmed by mail - their online app was a bit "balky" - we needed and got help from a friendly admissions officer

Ithaca College - requested and scheduled over the phone.

Hope this helps!

PS Although we requested and received all materials by mail, i.e., paper applications, rec forms, etc., wherever possible, we submitted applications on line. Most schools will tell you they prefer it if they offer it.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 11:04 am: Edit

Theatermom, I just noticed that your
daughter's list of schools is the exact same one that my D has now (except, for NYU, is applying to Tisch, not Steinhardt).

I hope you stay here a while! Also she submitted an application for the ARTS awards you mentioned to me a while back.

Susan

By Theatermom (Theatermom) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Susan

No surprise there, I think.....

If we had it to do over, I don't think we'd change a thing other than to consider Otterbein as well. We ended up withdrawing her apps from and cancelling audition dates at Ithaca, BOCO and PSU when she was accepted to U Mich.

My daughter's honorable mention (which is the level recognized right after Finalist - there were only 2 soprano finalists in the whole country) in Voice was commented upon by several of the schools she applied to. NFAA received over 6500 applications last year. She was one of only 11 people in the state of Pennsylvania to receive an award at any level in any discipline in the NFAA ARTSearch. We were very surpised and complimented when she received a formal commendation from the Governor and the Secretary of Education for her achievement in this highly recognized program.

Best of luck to your D. From all you've shared, I'll be very surprised if she is not chosen as a finalist in MT (or whatever other categories she chooses to enter given her multiplicity of talents) We found that even just the preparation for and completion of the entry materials for this competition, although time consuming, were so very valuable. For anyone else who is interested, it is not too late to enter. Check the info at http://www.nfaa.org

By Musicalthtrmom (Musicalthtrmom) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Theatermom...
many thanks for the extensive list you have posted regarding your recollection of audition scheduling....very helpful. I just don't want to find myself behind before the process begins! You've been most helpful.

My daughter, as well, has entered the NFAA competition....she's working on preparing the list of music she'll submit. Her voice teacher has had students receive honorable mention in the competition in the last couple of years so he is quite supportive of the program.

By Catsmom (Catsmom) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

THEATERMOM - THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR POSTINGS ABOUT STAYING ORGANIZED FOR THE AUDITION PROCESS AS WELL AS WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE SCHOOLS AS FAR AS AUDITION SCHEDULING. I TOO HOPE YOU WILL BE HERE IN THE COMING MONTHS FOR US AS YOUR INFO HAS BEEN INVALUABLE.

By Monkey (Monkey) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit



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By Monkey (Monkey) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:29 pm: Edit

oops! My computer obviously malfunctioned.... sorry! I'll try again!

By Monkey (Monkey) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Not sure what happened to my message in cyberspace but I'll try again! I wanted to add that another valuable aspect of an ARTS award from NFAA is the continued support they provide young artists in all fields. Due to an award in spoken and musical theatre, my daughter was offered an opportunity to audition to be an acting intern at the Utah Shakespearean Festival this season. This is proving to be the highlight of her life so far and an amazing place to learn and grow from seasoned professional actors and directors. Applying for an ARTS award requires a lot of time and effort, but the potential results are well worth it!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Theatermom, by the way, for now, I think Tisch and UMichigan are her top preferences.

As far as the Arts Awards, for now she only applied for musical theater. We figured that the prep for that is similar to the prep for college auditions so overlaps. She wanted to also submit for popular voice and jazz vocals (she does play instruments but while she plays very well, I don't think she could compete against a pianist whose focus in life is piano, though she has opted to work toward a high school diploma in piano next spring which is demanding as well). But then it seemed like that was a lot of songs to prepare if she entered three categories and when I think of her normally very very heavy schedule between school and numerous extracurriculars related to performing arts, being away the bulk of summer (theater camp), it seemed like biting off a bit much. She just auditioned yesterday for a statewide Musicians competition too. Knowing her, she will choose to produce and direct a show next year like this past year. So, she only applied for musical theater. I mean I already wonder how she will do college apps, audition prep, college visits, etc. on top of regular stuff (though I felt that way with my current senior last fall too, though she did not have auditions but has a very full plate too). Maybe in the fall, if she wants to add another category, we will see. I guess when I think about it, for the All State Scholarships here in Vermont, she auditioned for Voice (which was classical) and for Jazz and that was five songs and she won both. But I guess this looked like more songs and of course is on a national level. Hopefully this summer she will be selecting her material for college musical theater auditions and getting some coaching and therefore entering NFAA for that category is about the same thing, not much extra. I suppose if she later decides to enter for popular or jazz vocals for those awards, she could come fall.

She actually was asking me how your daughter's award ever got to colleges cause she thought it might not be awarded til after one applies. Anything you can say about that?

Anyway, I think it will be a good experience. I do not know any kids in our neck of the woods who ever did it. In fact, on the winners list, I do not see anyone from Vermont at all!


Tonight, my daughter has created and organized a "musical teach-in" promoting peace. It has been a major undertaking and she has gotten permission to use a local performing arts venue. She is there now setting the entire event up and I am leaving shortly to attend.

Thanks once again for sharing.
Monkey, you too.

Susan

By Theatermom (Theatermom) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Susan (and others)

NFAA offers a Scholarship List Service to colleges and universities and notifies these schools about students who apply and eventually are granted NFAA awards. They also make the portfolios/submissions of the students available to interested parties (all for a fee of course). Not all schools subscribe to this service, but we received mail from several schools inquiring if my D would be interested in applying to their programs. Because she won honorable mention in Voice, she was contacted by Vocal Performance/Music programs so it was not really a help for us (as she was applying for MT), but it did make her feel "wanted" at a time when it was really helpful for her to feel that way.

She had submitted her applications to most of her schools when we were notified about her award. I then wrote letters to all the schools and attached a copy of the award letter and the sample press release that NFAA customizes and sends to all award recipients and asked that the information be added to her file. I also added the receipt of the award to her resume which she handed in at her auditions. That is when she received the comments.

By Shauna (Shauna) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

My last day! I'm done! And I made my first B ever and I don't care (a good sign, I think)!

YAY!

Shauna

By Monkey (Monkey) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Our experience mirrors Theatremoms, in terms of how the schools become aware of the ARTS award. This is also true for other acheivements gained after college applications are submitted. My daughter found that it was acknowledged by at least one auditor at each audition, and provided a nice way for her to discuss how she selected material to perform.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Thank you Theatermom for the explanation. I did assume that it might mean sending an update after the application is filed. My senior sent a letter of updates of awards/achievements, etc. to her first choices after applications were filed as well, so that is pretty similar. But I forgot that this particular award (well, ONLY if she even was lucky to ever win one which sounds difficult) would be awarded most likely prior to college MT auditions and yes, of course, one constantly updates the theatrical resume and so that would be more current at the audition date (didn't think of that cause older child did not have auditions!).

My child's theatrical resume never had awards on it....rather it had the basic stuff like roles played, training, etc. Recently for a music competition thing, we added award type things or things like All States, etc. .....stuff we never had on it before (though things that would be on a college application). It is nice having this stuff on it but adding that for this submission she had for this state wide thing made the resume more than a page. I mean for theater auditions, we always keep it to one full page, never more. For this recent thing, it did not matter that it went to two pages cause it was not like a theater audition and in fact, adding all the awards was relevant. Do you guys have awards on the theater resume? If we do that, there is no way to keep it to a page....theater credits and training easily makes the one page fill up and that is after cutting credits. For college, do you have to keep your theater resume to one page like normal auditions? And do you have awards on it? (speaking of related awards of course). I was thinking recently that when we added this stuff for this recent statewide submission, it really gave a fuller picture as might be better for college, than her regular credits and training resume had. I mean by going to two pages, we were able to add in things like she created and directed a musical, or All State Scholarship winner, and things like that which is pertinent to college (stuff that would have gone on application type resume). Did you put that kind of thing on the theater resume for college even if you do not normally for theater auditions? Did you go beyond one page for the one used for college auditions? Like I said, for theatrical auditions, we normally glue resume to back of headshot. This more fuller resume with things like awards or directing or choregraphing on it seems more suited to college though. Just wondering.

Shauna.....YAY for you!!! You are DONE!!! Enjoy! You deserve it! My girls have 13 more days!!!

Sorry if this post is rather incoherent....am distracted and it is late....was at younger one's musical teach-in event she created tonight, and older one started one of her summer jobs (even though we are still in school) and got home real late and is now concocting by scratch a French chocolate mousse recipe to take to her French teacher's house tomorrow night (at this hour!) and asking for advice along the way.....!!

Susan

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 08:04 am: Edit

OK, here it is. I've been working on it for two weeks, and it needs more work. But it's a start. Let's keep talking.

EVALUATIONS

"It's an interesting point - having admitted students with some promise and credentials, do English departments 'cut' their undergraduates who aren't writing up to standard? If the students are really writing badly, they flunk out. If they are simply not among 'the best', then they go on to graduate, but may not find immediate success as a novelist or be a successful non-fiction writer. But no one cuts them from a program at age 19-20.

Why the difference?"

That was JrMom's excellent question, echoed by Susan who wrote, "What is the worst that can happen with that student finishing the program? The student just may not have good career prospects."

These are not simple questions, and I don't promise simple answers. But I do think there are two primary reasons. The first has to do with standards and reputations, the second with the nature of the performing arts and how people learn them.

STANDARDS AND REPUTATION

The first reason for using juries and similar evaluation systems is historical: some theatre conservatories are descended from music conservatories which have been doing this sort of thing for centuries.

Juries are an accepted part of the world of music. So much so that Indiana University, my son David's alma mater (he is a bassoonist), only has to say in its list of requirements for the performance degree, "Entrance audition, freshman jury, upper-division hearing, junior recital, senior recital." Not much further explanation required. Students understand that they must pass each and every level in order to receive the degree. David tells me that students get two chances to pass these juries; if they don't pass the second time, they have to find another major. But he also tells me that he knows of it happening only once or twice in his six years at IU.

If that's true, why do the faculty keep the jury system? Why don't they simply rely upon grades in courses, including the studio?

Historically, European universities separated professors from tutors. Professors lectured and wrote the examinations, while tutors helped prepare students to pass the exams. Early educators recognized that tutors would have difficulty making hard judgements about students with whom they'd developed a close personal relationship. Examinations, administered by the college, were the only way to ensure that graduating students had mastered an accepted body of knowledge and skills.

American universities, for a variety of reasons, combined the two roles and allowed professors to grade their own students. (That carries its own set of problems.) Nowadays, the only vestiges of the old European model are in:

Ø master's thesis and doctoral dissertation committees, which contain other departmental and "outside" faculty in addition to the student's advisor;
Ø standardized tests, from state-mandated competency tests in 4th grade, through SATs and graduate school entrance exams, all the way to law and medical boards; and
Ø music (and dance and theatre) juries.

In all of these cases, the intent is to establish standards which students must meet in order to be certified. And there is recognition that maintaining those standards requires testing by someone other than the primary tutor.

Whatever you think of standardized tests--and I'm very suspicious of them--I don't know anyone who would debate the necessity of "juries" for lawyers and doctors. Or auto mechanics and chefs, for that matter.

But for bassoonists or actors? What difference does it make if XXU graduates an actor who's not very skilled? Who gets hurt, really?

The answer is: every actor who has graduated recently or will graduate soon from XXU. Reputation is critical in the theatre, and when a department showcases its senior class in New York City, that reputation is put directly on the line. Professional training programs live not only in the business world of higher education but also in the business world of professional theatre. If one casting director decides that he doesn't want to bother interviewing that XXU alumna because their showcases have been weak recently, it doesn't matter how good that individual XXU alumna is. Everyone gets painted with the same brush. If would be nice if casting directors were "fair", but let's not be naive about this.

The reverse is also true. If a school presents outstanding showcases, then everyone who carries the degree--even graduates who weren't in the showcase--benefit as well. "XXU has been turning out some good people lately, let's take a look at her." It won't guarantee the job--only the audition process (the ultimate jury system) will do that--but it may help the actor get the first interview.

So schools which present showcases--and there is market demand from parents and prospective students for schools to do them--have a problem. How do you ensure that the actors you present in NYC will look good to the agents and casting directors? There are only two choices of which I'm aware:

Ø You have to have students audition to get into the showcase, or
Ø You have to eliminate students along the way who aren't "measuring up".

Hence, the need for juries. Showcases cut both ways. They certainly provide opportunities for graduating seniors to be seen. But they also put considerable market pressure on schools to bring only those students who will look good. And if the showcase is a requirement rather than an elective, schools are pushed towards making decisions quite early on about who will succeed in the training, and there's less patience with slower growth.

LEARNING IN THE PERFORMING ARTS

If an English major doesn't write well, but still well enough to pass the courses, no one cuts them. That's true, and the reason is simple. Writing is a solitary art. A weaker English student may be a burden to the teacher, but is not a burden to the rest of the class. Not so in music, dance or theatre. These are collective art forms which require collaboration. Imagine a bassoonist who is behind the conductor, a dancer who can't lift his partner, an actor who doesn't learn his lines. They not only harm the product, they harm the learning of the other students. So there have to be rules, and I think everyone understands that.

But lack of preparation can be handled through grades. So why juries? Here are good reasons: Juries give students a benchmark to aim for, a place to put together everything they've learned, and it gives faculties the chance to see where the students are in their training. We just finished meeting with our freshman class. They were asked to do a lengthy written self-assessment, and to present their best 90-second monologue. (We'd heard the MTs sing at last week's freshman MT ensemble recital.) In the first half-hour, we saw all the monologues, and then we met with the class individually in 15-minute sessions for the rest of the afternoon. We started by asking them to speak to the issues in their self-assessment, and then we gave them feedback about their work in the jury and in classes and productions. They were very positive sessions. Faculty who worked with the students in the fall could comment on their progress; faculty who hadn't yet worked with them could comment on the strengths and weaknesses in what they saw that day; and all of us could help the students focus on their personal goals for next year.

We take this "formative" approach all the way through, and we don't formally vote on whether students can continue. For us, that's dependent on grades in classes, including production. (We can afford to do this because we hold auditions to get into the senior showcase.) But some schools use the juries to make decisions about continuation. That injects a certain amount of fear into the process, certainly. Too much fear is, I believe, highly counter-productive. Students become totally focussed on the jury and they lock up physically, emotionally and artistically. But too little fear is also, I believe, counter-productive. If there are no stakes, students walk into class and into rehearsal unprepared and passive. That's not only damaging to the other students, as I indicated before, it's ultimately damaging to the students who are unprepared. They are not learning the work ethic required to succeed in this tough business, and we do them no favors by allowing them to believe that they can succeed without it. Some fear is necessary. Finding the right balance is critical. And the balance is different for different students.

Finally, that's the difference between the BA and the BFA degree. Students who are global thinkers, self-motivated, interested in many things, synthesizers, are probably going to be happier in a BA program where they can study what they want, when they want, and how they want. But students who want to go as far as they can in a psycho-physical skill, like acting or music or dance, are probably going to do better in a BFA program which challenges them to dig deeply into themselves and to reach for the best work of which they are capable. And evaluation systems, including juries--if done right--can aid in this process.

Hope this helps. As Mark Twain once said, it would have been shorter if I'd had the time.

Best wishes to all.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

Doctorjohn, that is such an excellent explanation!!!

In my opinion, I am all for evaluation and standards, being an educator myself. I also have taught at several colleges and am not into just passing someone along who is not towing the line. In fact, I have no problem with someone not being allowed to graduate or pass a course who has not met a certain standard of work. But I think the way your school is going about this is exactly the right way. You have expectations of students to strive for and then there is an evaluative process. Then you meet and go over strengths and weaknesses. Even in your son's music program, the student had a couple chances to improve upon the areas in the feedback and try again. I guess that is how I see the education process. If someone is not putting forth any effort or missing classes, or not learning lines or getting work in, stuff like that, get a warning, can't improve, then the kid cannot pass. But I think with the talent end of it, then it is an ongoing evaluation and improvement game.

I understand the very valid point about the showcases. The reputation of the progam is on the line and I understand that better now from your explanation. I suppose one way to work around that is to audition to get into the showcase. Those who are less talented but have been doing the work to pass, still do the program but are not showcased.

It is a very fuzzy area to some degree because evaluation is crucial in education and in this field in particular. There must be criteria to move to the next level all along the way. The fuzzy part to me is that I can see not being passed to the next level if not doing the work or meeting certain expectations or criteria but I have a little more trouble with not staying in a program if the talent itself is not up to par though apparently was up to par to be admitted. I guess cause this is still an education process, I prefer to see improvement plans and so forth and chances given to do the work. If someone is not meeting those expectations, they should not move on. The talent part is where it gets a bit fuzzy. But I think very few programs are really cutting kids on the talent thing alone. I think at the least, programs should give feedback and a warning and a year to improve before being eliminated all together.

I do like having kids work up to evaluations. It is something to strive for. While not nearly the same, one thing that it reminds me of is that yearly my kids do National Piano Auditions via the National Guild of Piano Teachers. My mom thinks it is nuts what my kids go through and can't understand why they have to do it. What it involves is memorizing ten piano pieces from various genres at a particular level of competence (the levels are defined) and going before a judge who evaluates and grades you and elects whether to pass you on that level. I know it does not matter that much but I think that having these "Auditions" every May, it gives my kids something to prepare for all year in their piano playing. Sure, it is a ton of work and many kids take piano lessons and never do this major evaluation each year. But I think without that, there is less of a goal or something to work towards. It has been my kids' choice to do it. In fact, my fifteen year old is electing to do something even harder next year and that is to memorize 15 pieces at a certain level to attain a high school diploma in piano, something like that. So, it is that same kind of evaluative process and it affects their work in piano all year. The only thing that is different, is that they are allowed to continue playing year to year and nobody cuts them! lol ....I know it is not the same but it does come to my mind!

I truly believe you have the best philosophy in this area because evaluative systems DO aid in the process, particularly in a performing art. I guess it then comes down to what the school chooses to do with the evaluation...whether to use it as a guide toward improvement and learning and setting of individual goals, or giving warnings of work that is not up to snuff and another chance before not passing through, or whether the evaluation is used to simply cut those that are not talented enough. I do think your idea of auditioning for the showcase is a good one in that it eliminates the factor you mentioned regarding the showcase involving the school's reputation. That way, less talented but nonetheless hard working learners, still get an education but might not be showcased. Afterall, even in high school, not everyone makes it into a cast or onto the varsity team, etc. The less talented, however, still get to keep learning. Just to clarify, I am only talking talent now, not kids who are not measuring up as far as their work or general expectations of a student (which can be grounds for failure in any institution of learning).

Thank you so much once again for continuing to offer such perspectives from the field !!

Susan

By Theatermom (Theatermom) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

Doctorjohn,

Great post. You brought up a few points that I was aware of but hadn't really thought through before, specifically the choice to have your students audition to be in your Showcase. My understanding is that Michigan currently sends all of it's MT students to its NY showcase as do, I believe, Penn State, CCM (the survivors, that is) and CMU. I know that Syracuse has decided in the last few years to let the senior class decide whether or not to do a showcase, with the knowledge that if they elect to have one, not all students will go. They did not present this year, choosing instead to spend several days in NYC attending a series of master classes, performances and professional meetings set up by the Department. I don't have first hand current information about any of the other programs. I know that your Otterbein showcase this year included actors AND MT students and given the overall numbers you've given here, it appears that about 2/3's of the students in your program made it to the Showcase. Perhaps given the evaluation system you outlined, it does not come as a surprise to the ones "left behind," but I'd love to know what you say to them and how they deal with it.

I very much like the evaluation system you describe in use at Otterbein. I too believe it is important for students to have delineated for them reasonable expectations for growth in performance quality and to be evaluated on their success in meeting those demands. It appears to be a terrific compromise between kicking kids out of the program and the "no fear" situation you described as being unrealistic and not helpful to the students achieving their ultimate academic and professional objectives.

Now, as if you have not done enough work for us already, your comments about the type of student who should choose a BA as opposed to a BFA raised another question in my mind. You wrote " Students who are global thinkers, self-motivated, interested in many things, synthesizers, are probably going to be happier in a BA program where they can study what they want, when they want, and how they want." I don't think you meant to say that a student who has other interests outside of their passion for the arts can't be satisfied and/or successful in a BFA program. But your thoughts would have me believe that you favor a stricter conservatory approach to training at the undergraduate level e.g. programs like CMU and CCM, as opposed to the more hybrid approach taken by programs like PSU and Michigan, where BFA students take approximately 25% of their coursework in liberal arts while at the same time working in a conservatory-quality BFA program. I believe that PSU's "out of conservatory" classes are more proscribed than the liberal arts menu at UMich, where the students, in consultation with their departmental advisor, choose courses that interest them, but that will hopefully support the work they are doing in their arts classes (i.e., my guess is that they don't opt for a lot of math and science courses.....). I'll admit my personal bias is towards the latter approach (allowing a modicum of LA courses for BFA students) - no surprise to long time followers of this thread. I worry about performers coming out of places like CCM and CMU staying too narrow, having little to no other educational and/or even life experience to inform their work as performers. I believe that the four years of college are also an important period for students' social and emotional growth. Maybe I'm being naive to the real world demands on these kids. But as a former theater professional AND a Mom, I'd be very interested in your take on this issue.

Thanks, as always, for the time, effort and care you put into your discussions with us. They are so valued by all.

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Actually, I don't favor a strict conservatory approach at all. Our school has a 10-course Integrative Studies program required of all students, no matter their major. On average, one course each term outside the department is required in writing, social science, religion/philosophy, history, science and the arts. There is an articulated progression. For example, the freshman writing class is focussed on self-discovery, the sophomore class on the relations between the sexes, and the junior year on the dilemma of existence. (It parallels rather nicely the progression in actor-training from focus on self to focus on communicating with a partner, to work on styles, i.e. means of communicating with audiences.) As a capstone, all students are required to do a Senior Year Experience designed to pull together everything they have done in the INST program and in their major. We're not interested in training theatre people who have only technical skills and have not grappled with the fundamental issues of human existence. Rather,we want to educate theatre artists who are intellectually alive, socially aware and committed to contributing to American life through their art.

What I intended with the distinction between the BA and the BFA was to get at the issue of learning styles, rather than curricula per se. But that's another discussion for another day.

Thanks for your kind comments, everyone.

By Klass (Klass) on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

There are 5 Texas schools with Musical Theater major on the master list in Part 17. What can anyone tell me about these Texas programs?

Also, we are looking for schools with the potential for double majoring in another area. (UMich, Northwestern, ASU may all somewhat have that capability; I think CMU considers Musical Theater a "double major", or something like that -- which might limit combining with a different field.)

Have any of you successfully double-majored with
Musical Theater PLUS a different field (i.e., chemistry or math, chemical engineering, engineering, etc.)??? We are aware that MT is demanding time/energy/scheduling; however, our son is very interested in pursuing the academic by fitting into the core curriculum as well as taking in AP credits, etcetcetc.

By Emilyp114 (Emilyp114) on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit

Klass,

Tisch allows double majoring in majors in the College of Arts and Science.

By Nickdad (Nickdad) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 02:55 am: Edit

I think OCU has an excellent system. They have juries every semester for each of the music school students (vocalists, instrumentalists, composers, etc).

Each student must perform in front of the particular department's faculty members in order to attain a certain level. Freshman musical theater majors start at level 3 and then must attain level 6B in order to do a senior recital (a recital is another thing many schools do not require..it's a solo show where the student must hold the stage for an hour and perform songs from their rep. A true test of achievement).

I think the jury system at OCU forces the student to be at their best and do their homework. If a student must learn 8 songs each semester (4 musical theater and four classical/art), the teachers will pick three that the student must perform from memory. Apparently several students have had to stay an extra semester because they slacked off and didn't prepare and didn't make their level.

Leveling also occurs in piano, dance and acting each semester. It makes the students focus and spend time perfecting their craft. What an excellent education method.

I would be interested in hearing if any other schools uses this each semester.

By Dramamama (Dramamama) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Although my daughter will not be attending Emerson, she just got a more specific admission letter from the Professor and Chair of Performing Arts and I thought I would share some of this letter relative to both acceptance rates and cut or review policies (since these have been ongoing topics of discussion on this board) for any of you that might be interested in auditioning there next year.

"More than 450 prospective freshmen and transfer sutdents auditioned for no more than 24 places in this program".....

"As a student in the Musical Theatre program, you will pursue a BFA degree. Your progress, however, is subject to regular review by the faculty. During the first four semesters of training work, our particular concern is with issues of work ethic; personal commitment, willingness to engage in the work, collaboration skills, etc. At the end of the fourth term, students who wish to continue in the BFA program must present a formal audition and are evaluated by the Musical Theatre faculty for admission into the BFA Studio. Students will not be permitted to enter the more intensive final two years unless the faculty is convinced that their emerging protential for a professional career merits such a committment. We expect to have a BFA class of sixteen moving forward toward graduation."

My guess is that some of these 24 students are diminished by natural attrition anyway but the policy does appear pretty clear. The letter also states that students are encouraged to switch from a BFA to a BA degree to encourage "cross-disciplinary exploration" when necessary.

By Mtmomtok (Mtmomtok) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I have read all the threads and have gotten incredible and useful information. Nonetheless I have a situation. My D attends a perfoming arts high school and is interested in applying for musical theater next year which will be her senior year. I have been doing most of the research (such as reading CC and looking up the universities, etc.) She has done some reading and research, but not much, being busy with the end of the school year, tests, sats, sats II, finals, and choral performances. That's apart from being a teenager (having friends, going to movies, etc.). She has just been accepted at a local community college for drama. Her major is vocal, so I think that will really help her with the monologue portion of the auditions. It is six week course and she gets four college credits. Here is my dilemma, although we have a few (3) supportive friends about her going into this field. The majority are always very negative. They always seem to say the same things -- "That's ok, but what are you really going to do?" They, of course are referring to her studying something that she can make money at. Some even suggesting that she study anything, make money, and then be able to support herself in this field. She has all of our support, being performers ourselves (even at a very small level) we know what it's like to eat, breathe and live just for this. Although, we didn't make it in a big way, it is still within us and excites us. I personally feel she should go for it and give it her all, and, if it doesn't go the way she want it, she can always teach and that will be her fallback, so to speak. I have read all of CC and have had some ups and downs with all the information. I, naturally hang on to the ups. Right now she is thinking of applying to a local community for drama that does not require an audition (totally safety school). I think the idea of auditioning scares her and that's not good because this is what's is all about, auditioning, auditioning auditioning. I'm really confused as to what to do, what to advise her and so on. Can someone shed some light on this. Is (has) anyone gone through this? Any help is absolutely appreciated.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Reading through this thread is a great peek at many students' and parents' journies through this process. If she wants to go into MT, audition is the core of that lifestyle so she might as well start now.

As to the usefulness of this as a career, I don't really entertain that thought. Most kids do not stick with their majors and even fewer end up working in it. If this is how my S wants to spend his time in college, it is fine with me. Don't see a rush for psychology majors either. Most MT majors are working in the same temp jobs as their liberal arts counterparts as they look for something more pertinant to their studies. There are many applications of MT or Theatre in general, such as teaching, any work in the entertainment industry or the arts. I think it is great when a kid has direction and vision. Other than kids who chose a highly desireable preprofessional field (like engineering), I don't see too many kids gainfully employed right out of college. And ain't no way my S is going to become an engineer!In many ways, college is a holding pen until they grow up enough to confront the real world. What they choose to study is not as important as the personal growth they gain in the process.

As your D is in a performing arts school, you and she should get some help from the dept head and counselors there. Surely they have gone through this before.

To all, S's school did an end of year concert where the kids who are preparing audition pieces performed their selections. The seniors were awesome. One of the juniors , a young girl I have known since freshman year was phenomonal. She did a piece from "Chorus Line", "Nothing" and it was truly the best I have ever seen. She also sang a classical piece demonstrating what it took to get a perfect score on the all-state voice. She is going to be formidable at the auditions, though she will probably be snapped up by one of the ivies where she is applying as her stats are also way up there.

S's pieces were very well done, but I felt that they did not suit him. A feeling he was having the whole year as he worked on them. He has more pieces than the other students because he has yet to find something to suit him. I could see exactly what he meant. Technically, he was excellent, but the pieces were not him. All obscure pieces and until I saw them done in a performance situation, I could not really properly assess them. So he has some work to do this summer. He can't seem to find his niche in an audition piece. He is a tenor belter and the best pieces for him seem to be the better known pieces and he may just have to go that route. I mean the young lady who did the "Chorus Line" piece did it so fantastically well, that I doubt the popularity of it will hurt her. She was truly a gem. So it is extremely helpful to have a forum of this sort for kids who are going to be auditioning. S is going to inquire about doing this again in the fall with a jury to offer comments, moderated through the department head.

A bit of a quandry. S's advisor and private coach who was assigned to him did not seem any where nearly as good in helping pick pieces for her students as another coach. No issues with here technically. Outstanding voice teacher. Great credentials. But the other coach seemed to excell in picking songs for her students whereas S's seemed to have little regard in taking the presence and personality of the performer into account. It was pretty noticeable in the program. S is ambivalent about requesting a change. It is usually not a good idea unless there is a true conflict there. I guess he is going to have to be more proactive in researching pieces this summer and in choosing some that suit him. Any thoughts?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 10:21 pm: Edit

I don't have any advice, just a couple thoughts.

My feeling is not to give a care what others tell your D about not going for this field cause it is so hard to make it. My view is that a young person should shoot for their dreams. When else in one's life can you do this? I have a daughter who is going to pursue musical theater and I am not worried about her making a living. I know it is very very very difficult to make it in theater. But that is her true passion and her talents do lie there. Why not go for it? If some day it does not work out, all is not lost. She will still have her education. Besides she is skilled and talented in several areas, not just in performing. I also feel she can do related things if she does not stay a performer....for example, in her case, she is good at writing, directing, choregraphing. So, my view is to go for it. I would advise the same for your daughter.

However, I see one red flag in your post. You mentioned her fear of auditioning. Naturally auditioning has a bit of a stress factor but if your D is truly worried about auditioning and is even considering programs with no auditions, I am wondering a bit. For one thing, someone going into a MT program, ideally should have experienced many auditions over the years and the college admission one should not be a totally new experience getting up and auditioning. Also this field requires constant auditioning. I think there needs to be some element of comfort or confidence in auditioning. It is ok to feel some nerves but if she is that reluctant to audition, I wonder a bit if she is truly as diehard or passionate about the field. Auditioning is truly a major part of it all. Has she done many auditions? I know my own kid has auditioned a lot. Every kid is different but she does not get nervous with auditions. The way to get better at auditioning is to keep practice auditioning and experiencing it.

I don't know what to suggest to you. But make sure she really really wants to go into this cause you gotta really feel it deeply and want it and all that goes with it. Even then it is hard but there is NO question in your mind if this is what you want to pursue. I do not know quite how to put it. I guess in my own kid's case, there was never any discussion whether to go into this field. It has been her deepest passion since so young and it just grows and grows and she has known this is what she has wanted to do all along. It really was not a decision that was made. Not sure this makes sense but that is what I think is needed to even pursue this field. Questions just do not arise about whether you want to do it or if you want to audition. Even with all that, it is hard to make it but you do not know unless you try.

If your daughter really really wants it, go for it! If she is not into auditioning, think hard though. And do not worry about what others think. I have not had anyone mention to me or my child that she should not pursue this cause it is hard to make it. Rather I think people just assume she is going into this field, at least those who know her.

If your daughter wants this, she'll know it and what others say will never stop her from pursuing her true passion. And auditioning won't stop her either.

Susan

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit

My post above was to MTmomtok.....did not see Jamimom's post til after I posted!

Jamimom, don't know what to tell ya. My daughter's voice teacher does not really advise much at all about selection of pieces. I think that tends to be more what vocal coaches do and my daughter reminds me that her voice teacher really is not a vocal coach. So, that sounds a bit similar to your son's situation.

I don't have any idea what my D will sing for college auditions. My feeling is that she is very strong willed and tends to pick what she likes, not necessarily what someone would advise, certainly not me, lol ! I hope she gets advice this summer in her program. She normally chooses herself with NO advice.

This reminds me of an experience this past week. A performing arts foundation type group has decided to sponsor a state wide musician's scholarship competition. It is a bit of a weird competition in that instrumentalists and vocalists are all in the same category (only category). The first step was submitting application, essays, resumes, recommendations, and all that stuff...my D sent an optional CD as well that she happens to be recording as a project. She entered as a singer of musical theater. The judges then chose to select kids to proceed to the next round which was auditions. She made it to auditions which were this past week. She chose a song that she has sung in her cabaret troupe in summers at her theater program but a song I just would not have picked even though she frankly is very good at it and has gotten a lot of praise for it. It just is not what I would think of for this competition. I know her voice teacher would not be that into it. She never even ran the song with her voice teacher. She had her piano teacher accompany her. She got to the auditions and learned that you can audition for ten minutes and she had thought she could just sing one song. So, right before her time slot, she decided to add a second song. She contemplated a few songs she had with her in a binder. She chose one she performed in a cabaret she created this past winter. But I mean, it is not like she prepared it for this audition or anything! Who does that????? She does! And guess what? She has been chosen as one of 8 finalists (not sure if there are other vocalists in the finalist pool or not but many kids were like top state symphony players). So, I guess she knows what she is doing and proves me wrong, lol. Now, the finalists perform in a concert and one will win $2500. Maybe she knows what to pick! She sang Brother Can you Spare a Dime. Then she added Life of the Party from Wild Party (sung by Idina Menzel who seconds ago won the Tony!). She has a musical workshop and performance coming up the day of my other Ds graduation and wanted to sing Wizard and I from Wicked (also sung by Idina Menzel...do I see a pattern here?) but now changed her mind cause someone else is singing it. So, now she is singing a song she does well but it is not even the kind of singing she is known for....How Did We Come to This from The Wild Party.

When she auditions for college, I would advise her to show her forte which is upbeat belting songs and range...but if I know her, she might purposely do the opposite. But I guess it always seems to work for her so what do I know? I really want someone who knows about this stuff to advise her. I hope in August she will ask the opinion of her voice teacher, even if he normally does not suggest songs to her. Also at her summer program, they told me that they will work for her to prep for college auditions, particulary I am interested in some coaching to select monologues which she has less experience with.

By the way, my daughter has performed Nothing before. Great song.

I know I am not offering you any suggestions, but just commisserating cause I have a kid who chooses her own songs and has a mind of her own. It has worked for her so I guess I should just shut up, lol. Though sometimes she really does ask me my opinion. Often these decisions of which song to do (and asking for my opinion) comes up in car rides when I am driving!!! I hope more goes into the decision of what to select for college auditions. She promises me it will!

Susan

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Thanks, Susan. I think S needs to get on the ball and start researching a bit more. He has been lackadaisical about this, just taking whatever the situation, teacher, coach dishes out and doing what he can with it. He did a great job on the pieces; it's just that I felt there are songs that would have fit better. And there was just a much better fit between the selection and the kid with the other teacher's group. His coach seemed to go more for stretching the range of her kids and making her kids actually work the songs which is not a bad thing at all for training but I just have a feeling that it is not the best of the best for auditions. She had kids sing songs that they physically are not likely to ever be cast in the role of the singer and were totally out of charactor. I guess I should just shut up too, but am musing about all of this as this is all new for me. Had hoped that going to this highschool would be a one stop shop as far as getting S's audition stuff together, but now I think he is going to have to work on some pieces this summer as well. He seems to realize this too as he is not happy with the group of songs assigned to him. But he has not done the research he should have been doing to find something better. He is going to have to get on the stick.

By Theatermom (Theatermom) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Jamimom,

As difficult as it may be, it seems your son has learned a valuable lesson from this experience. I'm assuming he shares your opinion that the songs "assigned" to him do not fit him.....

The fact that the performer has to do the work of researching material was one of the most important things my D learned at CMU last summer. Once she chose material that she liked and was committed to singing, her voice teachers/coaches in the program, as well as the other students, reacted to the choices and her performance of them. That process of choice, preparation, performance and feedback is a critical one and the best way to learn. Luckily your son still has plenty of time to "go back to the drawing board." If he has serious issues with his teachers he must also learn to speak his mind to them and if change is not possible, find a way to make it work, perhaps specifically by coming up with his own choices, respectfully presenting them as alternatives and being prepared to defend them. In the end, only he should decide what he will present at his auditions.

His choices SHOULD absolutely reflect the ways he is likely to be cast - as an extreme example, most auditors are not going to take seriously an 18 year old boy singing a song written to be sung by a grandfather. They need to be able to see him in the parts he chooses for himself and more importantly, he has to be able to see himself in those roles so he can commit to the character of the song as well as the notes.

It's a scarey time. While my D has no audition fears, she did have a few meltdowns in the safety of our home last year as she struggled with the process of being judged at every turn. They were actually a valuable way to release the tension she felt. At well chosen times, your son will need your honesty as he makes these choices but more importantly, he will need your belief in him and your unwavering support all along the way. Good luck!

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 12:07 am: Edit

Theatermom, you are right. S actually had been complaining low key about the song choices, but just singing them at home, did not show the issues. Not knowing much about all of this, I just told him to learn the pieces well as he needed to get a wide repertoire. It wasn't until this showcase that I could see what he meant. And he was not disgruntled enough to do the research, come up with some better suited pieces and present them to his teacher. I really can't judge pieces that I do not know until they are present at a forum as these were. And S's pieces were songs I had never heard before. He is really going to have to get to work. Thanks for the kind words and the advice. I know you are right.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 12:11 am: Edit

Jamimom, I was wrong in saying similar situation. My daughter's voice teacher has never selected songs for her. I think my daughter has always selected her own songs for auditions or anything for that matter!

Funny but after I posted that post to you earlier.....this was while I had four kids in the room watching the Tony's.....one boy who was over my daughter knows from theater though he does not live near us, but does have the same voice teacher....though this past year he went away to a performing arts boarding school, Walnut Hill. And I heard him ask my D what she was singing for this upcoming showcase and she told him, How Did it Come to This from Wild Party and I heard her commenting how the voice teacher never selects her material but she always picks her own. Then she went on to say how she often is the one who picks material for others. And yesterday this just happened at voice when another girl needed a song for the showcase and my daughter knew her type and then sang two songs for her as suggestions and sure enough the girl chose to do one of my daughter's selections. I think she does have a knack of choosing material for others. When she created a contemporary Broadway cabaret revue this past year, she selected all the music and chose solos for each performer based on what she felt fit each person and each performer accepted her suggestions and in fact, when I saw the show, I was thinking myself that the songs really did showcase what each kid could specifically do well. So maybe she is onto something.

Have not discussed material for auditions for college yet. She has to audition in two weeks to be cast in her summer theater program. So, one thing at a time. I have been in touch with the producer at her summer program who said they will line up coaching for her this summer to prepare for college auditions (I did not know they did that but they told me they do!). Then when she gets back she has two unscheduled weeks (a rarity in her life) in August. During that time, I hope she focuses on college auditions (says she plans to). I will see what she comes home with from theater camp but she can meet with her voice teacher. Also we have no acting coaches here at home (gets that at camp though)....but a very good one from NYC is moving up here, someone my D has worked with in a workshop in the past and will again in two weeks....and so I hope she can work with him in August as well. That is one exciting possibility that we recently found out.

My D and I often discuss her choices of songs to use for this or that audition that arises. And when she asks what I think, I often say that she is a good singer so almost any song she sings sounds good to me but I prefer for audition type events, to choose what truly shows off one's skills...or one's forte. So, lots of people think of her as a belter and so if it were me, I would choose an upbeat belt song for her. So, when she does some other kind of song and says she wants to use it for something or other, it is not like I do not think she is good at it, but I would just opt for what is one's biggest strength. In that regard, she does not always agree. She'll say, but I am so known for that, so I want to pick something else. The other day she was telling me how on our school's 2004 music Department CD (they record a CD each year as they have a recording studio there and most of the CD is of songs by the concert band, choral groups, jazz band, etc.), the music faculty decided they wanted to include a solo of my D singing...cause she has been recording her own solo CD as a project in her music tech class and they wanted to take a song from her CD for the dept. recording. They chose her rendition of the Beatles' Imagine and I think my daughter felt some pride cause she said they picked that song cause it is not the kind of song they might think of when they think of what she is known for. So, that's what I mean. A lot of music on her CD is not even musical theater! And truly that IS what she is known for....so go figure. That is cool and all but I hope for college auditions, she goes for what truly is her forte even if she sings other stuff well too. I've told her my opinion but we have never yet discussed specifics. But at least this time it won't be like this past week when she selected one of her songs before walking in the audition door! I gotta say, she does not lack confidence! I would NEVER do what she did at the last second. Who am I to say? My husband would say, it always works for her, so there ya go!

By Mtmomtok (Mtmomtok) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 12:17 am: Edit

Susan,

MY feeling is that my d is scared of the competition. She is not really afraid of auditioning. She does get a little nervous, but fortunately it does not take away from her performance (I've witnessed this.) From reading this site she has had (as I've had)lots of ups and downs. I feel that if this is what she really wants, she has all of my support. I don't worry about whether she makes it or not. One sure way of not making it is not trying. I prefer she try than not and then wonder what would've been. Another person I told my daughter was trying for MT said "Oh, the starving profession". But I know that anyone who wants to do this will do it no matter what.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Hooray for Idina and Hugh!!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

Ok, so it sounds like she wants this and you are behind her, yay! So she is not that afraid of auditioning itself, good! As far as competition, yes, acknowledge that it exists. But she just has to compete with herself. Do the best she can do. Prepare a LOT. Apply to a range of schools, and so forth. Think of it as an evaluation for herself and not pitting herself against others. I think you can nip some of those fears by discussing it. You can also bring up that all auditions in this field involve not everyone making it in (to a cast or even to a college) and you just have to pick yourself up, try again and try many appropriate possibilities.

You are right in that you can't worry if she makes it or not in this field. She wants to study and train in this field and you just do not know the outcome. That is true in many college situations, not just theater. And if she does not make it as a performer, she certainly is not gonna die and frivel up.....she will simply do something else, or something related and may end up in theater as a community activity, not her main avocation. Time will tell. But if she wants it in her heart, she won't have to debate it. Just go for it. And discuss these issues as they arise....ie., in this case, the "competition". Again, the more she prepares, the more she enters the audition with confidence.

As far as Idina, my D has admired her for quite some time. My daughter has a tendency to like to sing her songs even (and her voice type is similar....though am not comparing her to the talent of Idina) Glad she won. Did not think her Tony performance was as good, however, as in the Bdway production.

Susan

By Mtmomtok (Mtmomtok) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 08:46 am: Edit

Susan,

Thanks so much for your input. It really lifts me. I hope it does the same for my D. She has a tendency to leave things for the last minute, and sometimes it works out and sometimes not. That worries me with the auditions. She also is an Idina fan and sings all of her stuff - Rent, the Wild Party and is especially crazy for Wicked.

I agree with you on Idina's performance, she went off on a couple of notes. My D does that some perfectly - especially the high notes. I want her to select pieces that will showcase everything she's got. I think her thinking of a non auditioning community college just puts her mind at ease that she will not wind up with nothing. Though I told her that here in cc I read about a girl who tried, didn't get in anywhere (a downer) so she applied to another school got in and wasn't happy. She dropped out after her first semester, tried again and was accepted (an upper) in a few programs. But this is how it is. You just don't know. You do your very best and move on. The monologues I think scare her a bit (she is not an actress). They scare me too. In this summer program she will be attending the head of the theater department personally picked her to attend. She had to perform a monologue or a song. She did a song. But she was so at ease that I think her pesonality (as well as her audition) won him over. She did not know he was the head until later. I always tell her to be herself. I think this is very important for performers and believe ultimately that your personality plays an important factor.

I feel a lot more positive about this since reading your post. Thank goodness for College Confidential!

By Emilyp114 (Emilyp114) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 10:03 am: Edit

I hope all of you drama/mt lovers watched the Tonys last night. I was super proud and excited because one of my studio friends and fellow Tischie, Chad Carstarphen, was featured because he won one of the Tony scholarships. Yay Chad! I've seen most of the productions nominated this year in every category (a perq of going to Tisch is that we often get comps!) Most of the winners were deserved but I would have to say that, as much as I love Idina (it's required to love Tisch alumni ;)), Donna Murphy deserved it more. Also it's a crime that Tovah Feldshuh didn't win. And I was ecstatic that the underdog Avenue Q won best musical.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 10:05 am: Edit

Mtmomtok, naturally there are nerves involved in this whole process. I mean the nerves I have are just that the odds are so difficult. I believe in my child's abilities and talent but even so, I know how difficult it is to get in. These kids just have to prepare, do their best, believe in themselves. They have to apply to a range of schools and put their all into each one, not just their favorites.

Your daughter is wise to have some back up safety school. But that need not be CC necessarily. Just research all that is out there and find a school with easier odds a bit below her favorites or reaches that have very selective admissions.

The process is nervewracking to be sure but just lay out a plan or time line and it will all get done and next year at this time, it will be over and she will have a school to go to. I have a senior daughter and I just went through 18 months of this process and it is very LONG but right now, I have a very happy graduating girl with excitement over her college for next year. There is light at the end of this!!!

Susan

PS...we can compare notes this summer and fall......your daughter sounds as if she may have a similar voice type to mine....and in any case, we will both being going through this process as moms.

By Mtdad (Mtdad) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Over the last several months I've mostly been sitting back and observing the posts . . . and finding I did not have much constructive to offer. However, in many of the recent posts there's an underlying theme that has struck a chord and I wanted to bring it up. Namely, how much assistance should a parent give in the search for a school, the effort to apply, and selection and preparation for auditions. I expect that all the parents who participate in this forum are deeply involved with their child's theatrical aspirations and this will naturally extend to a high level of ownership in the search for a college, university, or conservatory to further those aspirations. I think it's probably accurate to say that we all have invested a huge amount of time (if nothing else driving to and from lessons, rehearsals, and performances)and family resources in supporting a young person who really thinks they can make a go of the MT life, much less gain admittance to the handful of institutions that are the focus of this thread. However, I'd caution parents against taking on too much of the load and making it perhaps too easy for the child. First and foremost, the kid must truly want to follow this path and that "want" really must be underpinned by both the work ethic and shear drive to make it happen. This includes both the grunt work involved in finding and researching schools, understanding requirements and deadlines, and completing and filing applications; and the artistic decisions regarding selecting and performing auditions pieces. Each child is unique and each will need differing levels of assistance, but we are their parents not their managers, and as such we should make consious decisions when to step back and see if they are really willing and able to do the work for themselves.

By Thesbohemian (Thesbohemian) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 05:08 pm: Edit

I'm in straight theatre and not MT, but I've been following this thread for awhile and think some of these moms rock in a big way. I wish mine was so supportive. Even though I just spent the past school year sweating and crying at my state's school of the arts to glowing reviews from my teachers, she still can't figure out why I don't want to be a lawyer. She's essentially told me I can major in theatre at any out-of-state college I want as long as they offer me a full-tuition scholarship and she'll pay my living expenses out of my college trust. Fortunately, I have stats that'll probably get me one. I'll probably get some help and feedback from my teachers, but will definitely be filling out my own applications and paying for my own plane tickets to go to the auditions I'll schedule myself with the money I'm making waiting tables this summer. So much for the beach trip I was planning with some friends ... I just got my driver's license, so at least she's going to let me borrow the car to go to my voice and speech lessons and scene study workship which I also just found out I'll be paying for myself. At least work and the gym are only a couple of miles from the house so I can ride my bike. "It sucks to be me ..."

By Mezzomom (Mezzomom) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Thesbohemian: Hang in there; I suspect, like many parents, your mom's just afraid that you'll have to struggle TOO much in the theatre process. We all want our kids to succeed, and for some, the definition of success is just far more conventional than MT or theatre or music or art... For parents who aren't "artistic" (I would include myself in that description), it's really hard to understand the drive and the commitment when the pay-off is so iffy. But I have to say, when I see my own daughter perform (whether in theatre or orchestra or vocal), I find myself thinking, "It sucks to be ME!" because I couldn't begin to do what she does, talent-wise or courage-wise. It takes a very special person to put so much of themselves out there and on the line; you are clearly one of those people. Your mom may or may not come around (and I do wonder a bit if she isn't intentionally, or at least subconsciously, creating obstacles to test your commitment), but it won't matter in the long run, if theatre is really what you want to do. I know the long-term perspective doesn't help in the short term, but you will find a way. You've already had so many good questions and are taking a proactive stance, and you always have parents here to cheer you on when you're feeling frustrated.

By Mezzomom (Mezzomom) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 05:48 pm: Edit

"Finally, that's the difference between the BA and the BFA degree. Students who are global thinkers, self-motivated, interested in many things, synthesizers, are probably going to be happier in a BA program where they can study what they want, when they want, and how they want. But students who want to go as far as they can in a psycho-physical skill, like acting or music or dance, are probably going to do better in a BFA program which challenges them to dig deeply into themselves and to reach for the best work of which they are capable."

Doctorjohn: Thanks so much for your observations; they were particularly timely at this home as my daughter is uncertain as to whether to pursue a BMus or a B.A. in Music. This has been a year when her social conscience is starting to come alive so a double degree is important to her (government or international relations.) But that also is very daunting to consider, and my normally confident, independent D has really been shaken by all this. I think as much as anything it's the concept of growing up and moving away from everything that's comfortable...probably the first time that she's thought through the ramifications of going away to college. Anyway, I showed her your comments, which she found reassuring. I think she was feeling like pursuing a B.A might be selling out, but now she feels like there's no shame in considering the other options available to her. And just as an aside, it now puts Otterbein back on her list, since a double major would be an option if she goes the B.A. route!

I have a few Otterbein/theatre dept.-specific questions for you, but I will contact you offline; right now I'm hearing loud, unidentifiable crashes coming from the kitchen where my D is cooking dinner so I need to go investigate!

By Thesbohemian (Thesbohemian) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Mezzomom,
Thanks. I needed that.

By Doctorjohn (Doctorjohn) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Thesbo:

Mezzomom makes some good points. I know it seems awful right now, but I have to tell you that what you're learning are survival skills that will serve you in good stead the rest of your life, especially if you become a professional actor. Have to figure out how to get to auditions on your own? Pay for your own voice lessons? Make a choice between a dance class and a vacation? Wow, what a gift. Think of it as AP Life. Approach it in that spirit and I know you can score a 5.

Honestly, the biggest obstacles I see to training in my students are entitlement and envy. The two tend to go hand in hand. The same students who think they're entitled to be cast often aren't, precisely because of that attitude. Then they become envious of those who are, and spend a lot of time grousing about the unfairness of life in general and their teachers in particular. I'm sure you've seen it at your school. These students tend to come from families where they've been given everything they ever asked for. As a result, they've never learned to work for something they really wanted. College is hard for them, and the profession--if they don't learn better--is even worse.

I suspect that some of your success at your arts school has come because you had to work harder for it than some others.

So count your blessings, kid, and don't be quite so hard on your mom. Although it feels like lack of support in the short term, in the long term she couldn't be doing anything better to help you grow.

By Thesbohemian (Thesbohemian) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Doctorjohn,
Yessir. I didn't start acting until 9th grade and was put in a studio full of former Annies and Anne Franks last year. Big time catch-up! My teachers said it was actually a good thing because I hadn't learned a lot of bad habits. AP Life? I like that! LOL I'll give Mom a non-sarcastic hug when she gets home. Thanks!

By Mtheatremom (Mtheatremom) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Thesbohemian,
I think your Mother is probably reacting out of fear and really has no true understanding of your passion. What artists want, whether they are painters or ballet dancers or actors - what they really want in life is to do what they love. I think they are the luckiest people on earth.

I am not artistic like my daughter, who plays the flute, dances, sings and acts - she does them easily and beautifully. But, it was by watching and listening to her all these years that I was able to see how performing what she loved to do - transformed her into the happiest person she could be. One day, when asked why she loves to dance - she answered, "I am the music."

My husband, a doctor, and very bookish - four years ago was very dismayed with her wanting to become a professional dancer (her goal has changed to musical theater since then.) Anyway, I'll never forget him saying to me, "I just don't get it. I always pictured her going to Duke and majoring in English..." I looked at him and said, "You really need to prepare yourself. She'll never go to Duke or any place like that. She wants to be a performer." He didn't change overnight, but, gradually he grew to understand what she wanted. Your Mother might change her opinion if she could just understand it from your perspective. I hope your Mother is aware of the glowing things teachers are saying about you - that might alleviate some of her fears.
Here are 2 books I recommend:
1) A Life in the Arts by Eric Maisel, Ph.D. - This book is a practical guidance and inspiration for creative and performing artists. Your mother may see her child in some of the descriptions of creative and talented individuals. (as well, be warned this book also illustrates the hardships actors and such endure..)
2)Finding Your Own North Star (claiming the life you were meant to live) by Martha Beck, Ph.D. - she writes about helping people find their ideal life. This is a great book.

Its either in this book or one recent month in an Oprah magazine that she writes for monthly - she also mentions the heartening fact that people who do what they want in life, (like being an actor), actually can grab onto other similiar jobs/opportunities in their field of choice when opportunities arise moreso than say someone who is dragging through the motions of a job they hate and they get layed off.... She feels people who have found their "true north" (being an actor, for example) are better equipped for finding work in today's work field.

Hope this helps. Can't believe I've gone on this long.
-Mtheatremom

By Shauna (Shauna) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Whew. This has been quite the weekend. I feel like I should update you all...this is pretty entertaining. My show opened for previews on Saturday, which was a great deal of fun. However, yesterday I went to go change into my first costume about five minutes before curtain up. We have co-ed dressing rooms, and they promised us a "partition." All we have is a clothes rack in the middle of the room and this is not sufficient considering there are some people in this cast I do not feel comfortable around at all. There is a small storage room off in the corner and I went in there to change. The door I went through apparently wasn't hooked to the hinges, and as I went out, it fell on my head. This was a 150-200 pound fireproof steel door. I don't even remember what happened, I just remember screaming and seeing the door on the floor. Interestingly enough, I was told by the production team that we were never supposed to change in our dressing room, but in the bathroom. With quick changes, none of us have time for that. Not sure what I will do about this situation in the future. My welcome to the world of professional theatre!

Anyway, I was pretty shaken up, but I felt fine. I had about 10 family members in the audience that night, so I wanted to go on. My mom was there and she is a pediatrician, so she checked me out and just told me to be careful. Well, I did the whole show, drove an hour to my friend's hip-hop dance competition, saw the whole competition, and then collapsed from pain and dizziness. I was in the ER until midnight last night and then had to go to graduation practice all day today (on Vicadin, sorry if that's not spelled right). Apparently it's just a concussion, but I graduate tomorrow, and I'm to sing at the ceremony...not to mention Grad Night afterward. So it's been interesting! Forgive me if this is a little incoherent, I'm still a bit drugged. Just wanted to share my interesting weekend.

Shauna

By Harttmom (Harttmom) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

This is my first time posting and I realized I posted my message on an earlier "string". For those who wanted information on Hartt, my daughter just finished her second year there as a MT and LOVES it. She is a California kid for the first time on the east coast and is having a great time. I saw both productions she was in this year and they were quite amazing.

By Shauna (Shauna) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 01:06 am: Edit

Thought I'd create a new thread...

CONTINUED AT PART 19.

Shauna