|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit|
...are all great places to get an education. I think you should look at the individual schools to see what is the best for you. Some people want a campus, others don't mind if their school is at the corner of a downtown intersection. It's all about what fits well for you.
You shouldn't generalize about a person because of what type of school they go to. A person from an Ivy can get burnt out, get sick of life, and not contribute to anything, whereas someone from a CC can get inspired and become the next mozart. Even though your parents may force you to go to a private or even an Ivy league school, you shouldn't go just because everyone is telling you to! See where you're most comfortable at, and make your own decision.
Parent's can be too demanding....I'm still trying to convince them, but they jsut don't listen. Anybody else having this problem?
|By Enzom (Enzom) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit|
Your point is very well taken, indeed. Many, many(in fact most) highly successful people went to what would be considered "average" schools. Unfortunately, our society has been whipped into a frenzy over where someone is educated, as if this defines who you are...well, it certainly does NOT.
Having said that, many great schools get their reputations for good reasons. One can rightly take pride in going to a great college, but what defines you is what you do with that eduaction.
I can say with certainty that my patients don't give one care about where I went to college. They care about whether I am a good physician, who is up to date, whether I listen to them, and whether I truely care about them. I trained at the most famous medical institution in the world with some very smart people. However, their education often times had nothing to do with their ability to relate to others. To the contrary, many of them were so caught up in "getting ahead" throughout their educational careers that they became(or maybe already were) insensitive, cut throat and cynical. Not exactly what you want from your doctor!
If you are smart, disciplined and focused you will do just fine no matter what school you call your alma mater. Best of luck.
|By I1lmatics (I1lmatics) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit|
your post is way too idealistic... while it is true that there are success stories from all levels of higher education.. the bulk of these successes come from the top schools... the students at these schools are privilaged to better opportunities and receive top education/training for whatever field they so desire to enter upon graduation
|By Enzom (Enzom) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit|
Simply not true.
|By I1lmatics (I1lmatics) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit|
not true? Are you honestly going to try to argue that a wharton undergrad is not privilaged to better opportunities / job recruiting / education than a student at a CC or a second tier school or even most first tier schools?
..While yes you can say that not all wharton undergrads will be successful, the majority will be. The fact that a CC student may make it big every once in a while does not mean that a CC produces the consistency to statistically go head to head with wharton. (Im using CC as an extreme example , the same still holds true with all other "lesser" universities)
..BOTTOM LINE: while anything may be possible, to base an argument on that mere fact alone is idealistic... in the scope of things its whats PROBABLE that matters. Untill you reach the point of academic quality where the colleges begin to plateau (and i'm talking high tier 1).. the better the school the better your oppurtunity for success... so put yourself in the best position you can
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 05:58 pm: Edit|
Enzom, what field do you work in and where did you get your MD degree? I think being a good doctor means having a lot of knowledge, being experienced and remembering your patients problems and names without consulting the notepad!
My parents however, think that a good doctor is someone with an Ivy MD degree (or Stanford, John Hopkins etc.) In fact, that's usually the first thing they look for when finding a doctor in the directory. They don't even give the other doctors a chance to prove themselves because they don't want to take a chance with a "lower caliber" of doctor (that's the word my mom used once!) Once they find a good doctor, they make sure all their friends know about him, so they usually switch doctors as well.
|By Willothewisp (Willothewisp) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 06:03 pm: Edit|
The argument seems to be about how to measure the statistics. A much, much larger percentage of people who went to top schools than of those who went to community college become successful, and lower-quality 4-year schools are in-between. However, because those who went to top schools are a small percentage overall, perhaps more successful people come from lower-quality schools just because there are overwhelmingly more people from lower-quality schools in total.
|By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 06:34 pm: Edit|
I1lmatics, I agree with Enzom. "The bulk of successes come from the top schools" is flat out wrong, at least as far as undergrad goes. I've been privileged to swim in the waters of business, academia, government, and the arts and the strikingly successful people who make an impact can be from all over the place. At *most* I'd say that an top school may increase your individual chances...but it doesn't make you one of the Elect.
|By Demingy (Demingy) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:11 pm: Edit|
You have to remember too that generally the elite schools only accept those that have already demonstrated success. This gives them a larger pool of people who are likely to succeed. This does not mean that the many people who were accepted and turned them down (gasp! people do this!) won't be very successful where they attend school.
And it is not true that the "bulk of successes come from the top schools". How many successes do you know? If you are merely going by some of the most famous, you are looking at a very small percentage. Do you know about the heads of every large company? Do you know every financial genius who works behind the scenes on investment plans and makes a lot of money because s/he is very good at what they do? What about the business owners (medium, small, doesn't matter) who were able to take a risk and make it work? In fact, how many scientists do you know about? There are a lot of scientists that make life changing discoveries almost daily, and I can guarantee that most of them didn't come from the "top schools". How can I guarantee this? Because most of the ones I've read up on (yes, I am REALLY interested in this field) don't have the HYPS degrees. If you look at the sheer number of people who have been highly successful and the small numbers that these schools accept, it just isn't possible for most of them to be "top grads".
Finally, you can put someone who is intelligent and who works hard pretty much anywhere and they will find opportunities to learn and excel. But, if you put someone who is mediocre and someone who doesn't care in one of the "top schools" they won't learn anything they don't want to and probably won't even take advantage of the opportunities that are right under their nose.
|By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit|
There's something to remember from all of this: there are just as many insurance agents out there who graduated from Yale as did from UConn and the University of New Haven. It puts things in perspective. Grad schools are a whole other ballgame, one example being the extensive networking that comes out of it for later use in your professional field.
|By Enzom (Enzom) on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:12 am: Edit|
I really feel sorry for you. Your parents sound as if they have a problem with elitism in general from your post. They, therefore, are naturally putting great pressure on you to conform to their(rigid)value system.
I went to a state medical school(Wright State University in my hometown, Dayton Ohio). The school was excellent.I then went to the Cleveland Clinic for my internship and finally the Mayo Clinic for my residency. This just illustrates my point: #1 I was accepted to two of the most famous medical institutions in the world from a state medical school, #2 I was better trained than most of my colleagues, including many Ivy League medical school graduates, #3 I was more sensitive in my approach to my patients than nearly all of my Ivy League trained fellow residents, #4 I was offered a staff position at Mayo when I graduated. So, point being, excellent educations are provided at so many schools across this country. An Ivy League or Elite LAC education certainly does not guarantee success in admissions to grad school or life.
Actually, in terms of financial return on investment for students who attend such elite schools, very comprehensive studies have been done which show that strictly based upon one's earnings, students who attend elite schools do NOT realise a commensurate return on their initial investments compared with those who attend cheaper state schools...that is a fact.
Bottom line is...you are correct. You can get a superb education at hundreds(perhaps thousands) of schools throughout the U.S. I am just sorry that your parents are that doctrinaire. Good luck.
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:34 pm: Edit|
Well, it's not that bad. I think my parents just want what's best for me, and they know that a big name school will help my later on in life. But the point is, I'd like it make it even without an "Ivy" title.
|By Enzom (Enzom) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit|
I understand. Hey, I went to a top shelf LAC myself and I am proud of it. Just keep this whole "prestige" issue in context. Who you are as a person is much more important than the prestige of the schools you attend. Good luck.
|By Edw (Edw) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 05:42 pm: Edit|
I know a lot was said that I'm not going to address but in reading your comments it sounds as if you are in a very shallow and ignorant. For example, your parents evaluation of a physician’s Med school as it relates to their quality is....well "Jacked Up". For instance, University of California San Francisco Med School or UCSF is consider more prestigious than Stanford and most of the Ivy Leagues (don't take my word for it...check it out for yourself) in the physician world. But how would you know that unless you were truly educated. Understand that the most important thing in choosing a college is not what most people will think...its how does it fit you. And most importantly read, learn, and validate your prejudices. I would hate to hear what you and your parents think about the aptitude of minorities (and I'm assuming that you are not based on the elitist attitude of your messages).
|By Bevie (Bevie) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit|
I'm sure you've all heard of the "Spielberg" effect where researchers found that people who applied to top schools but didn't go there, whether they didn't get accepted or just chose another school, do as well if not better than those who attend the top schools. (Based on Steven Spielberg who had that very experience.) So it seems that there are many factors that lead to success, as has been mentioned above. Where you go to school is just one of many.
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 07:17 pm: Edit|
Edw - well, my parents seem to think Ivies is the only way to go. I know that they are being unfair to the other schools that are not well-known, but I don't know if they're ignorant....they basically think that students that go to "lesser' schools can't be as smart as Ivy leaguers! I know that it's "jacked up", but when everyone around you thinks the same way, what can you do?
I prefer a less known school myself, such as a LAC or a community college when I won't be constantly bothered with prestige issues, but I'll still get a good education.
|By Madness (Madness) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit|
my mom got into Barnard, but was forced to go to UMiami b/c of financial reasons, and her parents were like, "oooh, scary NYC." my dad went to Dartmouth. Both went to Georgetown Law School. Anyway, my mom's still bitter about not having my dad's stellar alma mater. they constantly fight about their AP & SAT scores. these are 40 yr-olds we're talking about, arguing over who got a 1580 and who *gasp* only got a 1560 and who got 5's on their AP Calc tests. the horror. so now my mom's spazzing about what school i'm gonna get into...and has such a warped vision of schools she thinks UNC & Vanderbilt are "safeties." my parents are both brilliant people, and i know i won't earn their respect unless i get into Dartmouth or Penn or Columbia or Swarthmore or wherever. and heaven forbid I go to Kenyon, even though it looks like my perfect fit.
so i HATE "prestige." it's made my childhood a living hell, as well as a lot of my friends. we've all been working insanely hard since practically elementary school, sacrificing a "normal" adolescence, all for the sake of the AdCom. and it sucks.
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit|
Prestige is for "Ivy-Leaguers" and for other so-called "elite" universities. At least at a LAC you can get a good education, and not have to worry about being mired down in prestige.
|By Goodchocolate (Goodchocolate) on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:08 pm: Edit|
The average student at Cornell has a far better chance of being successful than an average student at, say, Tallahassee Community College.
Graduates of top schools make up such a small percentage of all college graduates, and that's the only reason why "The bulk of successes come from the top schools" is untrue.
|By Nvadad (Nvadad) on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit|
I can provide one data point....
I have a BA from a university categorized as "fourth tier" by US NEWS. I have had two PhDs from top 25 schools work for me.
|By 2bad4u (2bad4u) on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 06:22 pm: Edit|
The reason the bulk of success stories come from top 25 schools is because they admit people who have a much higher likelihood of being succesful. Believing that the institution is the reason for there succes is just wrong. It is like believing that the institute made you into an intelligent person bu the truth, the truth is the students go to a top 25 school with a certain amount of intelligence and leave with the same amount just more knowledge to put it to use and a slight and i mean slight edge.
|By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 08:19 pm: Edit|
"At least at a LAC you can get a good education, and not have to worry about being mired down in prestige."
Who goes to a top school "worrying" about prestige?
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:51 am: Edit|
Well, the iviis are obviously mired in prestige becaue they're "supposed" to be the elitest schools.
I've never heard of any LAC or lower tier college being all caught up in prestige issues. Students go there to get a good education, period. They don't spend time pretending elitism, so they get to learn more at college.
|By Metz (Metz) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:27 am: Edit|
I disagree. Schools like Williams and Amherst carry a lot of prestige on the east coast among certain circles. I think students that want to go to AWS or Pomona can sometimes be there for the prestige just as much as someone who picks an Ivy.
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:17 pm: Edit|
That's hard to believe. Most people go to LACs for a good education, but definitely not for prestige...which is a good thing! LACs are perfect for students like me who dont' want to get caught in the prestige cross-fire.
Look at it like this...just on this board, Amherst and Williams only have about 300 postings on their threads.The Ivies have 10,000 postings each! Most of those 10,000 posts are catfight among the "prestige-oriented" schools, which is what I want to stay away from. LACs are perfect for that because almost nobody knows about them, but the ones that do know of them know that they're good schools.
|By Enzom (Enzom) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit|
I think you have something of a msiconception. Actually, many of the top LACs are considered to be quite elite or prestigious(whatever term you would like to use)in educated circles. Where the Ivies have more name recognition is with the general "Joe Public" sort.
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit|
I'm pretty sure I don't have any misconceptions on this point.
Don't get me wrong..just because the LACS are not prestigious in the regular sense of the word, it's not a bad thing. Most students go there for a good education, and dont' get caught up in prestige issues, which leads to a better environment.
A case in point would be the number of posts for Amherst on this board...they're about 100 times lower than any Ivy school, which shows how hidden away it really is. That's what I love most about Amherst!
|By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:03 pm: Edit|
there are less posts for amherst because it's a smaller school. btw, madeline, where do you go to school?
|By Renobi888 (Renobi888) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit|
Well, I turned down Notre Dame, Georgetown, and
UPenn (oooh, it's an IVY, and the other two are top 25) for Williams College because I got off the waitlist there. At school, all the teachers are like, "Whoa, Williams College...that's like a little Ivy school. You'll get both great connections and a great education there." At first, my Asian parents were a little hesitant when I got off the waitlist, but then when they called up their friends, each one of them knew what Williams was and spoke of the place in the same breadth as the top-25 schools.
Well, you can get a great education anywhere if you apply yourself, but don't nix the LAC's b/c of perceived lower "prestige and reputation."
|By Renobi888 (Renobi888) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 03:13 pm: Edit|
haha, that and it helps that Williams is ranked number one in USNEWS...i kid, though
|By Bellevueteen (Bellevueteen) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:43 am: Edit|
"The Ivies have 10,000 postings each!"
Umm...only Cornell has over 10000 postings (and it is never, ever considered in the "top ivy" rankings of HYP so the prestige = posts argument is somewhat weakened). Harvard and Yale are kind of close, but not really. Stanford, MIT, and Berkeley all have a comparable number of postings so it's not all just ivy league schools.
|By Madelinemay11 (Madelinemay11) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 11:38 am: Edit|
Well, I guess my point is that LACs only have like 80 posts or so, whereas the Ivies have over 10,000 or close to 10,000. That really shows the difference in prestige/name recognition.
Honestly, I like LACs the way they are. I'm really considering a LAC because of the good arts training many of them specialize in. At my school, Ivies+s+m are the only schools any of the students consider, which is total crap, I know. I mentioned to a couple people I was considered a top LAC, and they basically laughed at the idea, if you can believe that!
|By Dke (Dke) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:28 pm: Edit|
It's hard to compare a LAC to an Ivy.....academically of course they're comparable but the college atmosphere is completely different......fewer TA's....a real feeling of community, less Greek life (eating clubs, whatever you call them).....a kid can get lost in a big school.....I went to Wheaton where class participation was part of my grade.......my husband went to Harvard and went to class when he felt like getting out of bed...who knew?....who cared?....he started partying on Wed. nights....We started saturday and stopped sunday....you have to look at each institution individually...and remember that you are an individual, too.......everyone can't have the same fit.
|By Dke (Dke) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:32 pm: Edit|
Even though Wheaton is considered to be a "second tier" school (although its on the 12 college exchange with Dartmouth, Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, etc.) the opportunities I was offered in their internship program was invaluable.....as a junior I interned at Citigroup in NYC..as a senior I interned at Mobil Oil.......Chase took one look at that and I was hired the spring of senior year....be an individual...take a look at what the specific institution can offer YOU.
|By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:45 pm: Edit|
What a great thread. Imagine, going to a school that fits *your* needs instead of going to a school based on the collective opinion of others. Amazing.
Report an offensive message on this page E-mail this page to a friend
|Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.|
|Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only|