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What's the difference between these three LACs? Thanks for the help!

By Haon (Haon) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 07:08 pm: Edit

The difference lies mainly in atmosphere. I'm a freshman at Williams so I obviously prefered Williams. I'll try to give you an honest description of each.

Amherst: part of the five college consortium. This means that at Amherst you can take classes at UMass, and 3 other colleges in the area. This gives you more course offerings. It also means that a lot of your social life revolves around Umass parties, and that you'll find kids from other schools in your class. This is nice in that it gives you a slight amount of more options, but in my opinion it disrupts the sense of community around Amherst. Also, IMO, the party scene isn't nearly as safe when you're not partying with people from your school. Amherst seemed to be higher stress than Williams and the community didn't seem quite as welcoming/supportive. I was turned off by how pretentious many of the students were when I visited.

Swarthmore: the most "academic" of the three school. Reputed to be a pressure cooker. I was turned off when I visited Swarthmore (on a beautiful wednesday afternoon) and NOBODY was outside. Swarthmore attracts a similar type of student as UChicago does (quirky intellectuals).

Williams: Williams is the most athletic and outdoorsy of the three schools. Williams students are known for being exceptionally well rounded--not only smart, but often athletic and artistic. The campus is absolutely beautiful and there is a wonderful community full of school pride and spirit. Williams is also the largest of the three schools (2000 instead of 1600-1700). Since Williams is relatively isolated, the college goes way out of its way to make sure there are ALWAYS activities going on. EVERYBODY at Williams works incredibly hard, but everybody also knows when to put down their work and relax. When I was still a prospective student it struck me how much happier Williams students seemed than Amherst or Swatties (and how much friendlier they were too). Now that I'm here I can see why.

All three schools are academically superb, and are all basically on par with eachother. If you're deciding among them, visit and find which one fits best with you...they're academically all three nearly identical (and you really can't find any better), but the atmospheres differ greatly. I'd recommend doing overnights at each.

If you have any specific questions about any of the schools, I'd be happy to answer them. Obviously I'm going to know the most about Williams, but I've visited and done tons of research on Amherst and Swarthmore too.

By Sadeyedlady (Sadeyedlady) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Is amherst liberal? is there a lot of political activism there?

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 11:42 pm: Edit

although I didn't visit any of these schools, i've done some research on LACs. according to the College Finder, amherst was one of the most friendly/welcoming colleges in the nation, and williams got fashion-conscious. so i don't know. anyway, now i wished i considered swarthmore (i'm an amherst ED applicant) because i also applied to UChicago EA. i didn't consider williams because from all the research i've done, it seems that it is a superficial place. that's just my opinion.

sadeyedlady- amherst is liberal

By Kishi (Kishi) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Thanks a lot Haon, you've been really helpful! I've applied to many big universities, mainly because I knew more about them, but now I'm thinking about adding one or two LACs. How are the locations of the three colleges? Are they within traveling distanced to NYC or Boston? Is Williams isolated as in rural? Sorry, I know nothing about the east coast, I'm from Hawaii... Also, from what I've gathered it seems universities are better for name recognition in the public, advanced courses, and research opportunities, but LACs are just as good in everything else plus they focus on undergrads -- is this right so far? Did you choose Williams over universities, and if so why?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 11:55 am: Edit

I'm a lifelong Boston resident, so I can tell you a bit about location.

Williams is about three hours from Boston (2.5 if you make good time). It's in the Northwest corner of MA (look on a map, it's pretty close to Vermont). It's not far from Albany (maybe an hour?), so that's the closest city. However, it's not totally in the middle of nowhere... I mean, you drive for about twenty minutes, and then you're on a highway. The campus is absolutely beautiful. The Berkshires are a favourite vacation spot for MA residents. Lots of students do things like bring bikes to campus so they can get around. Campus is very clean... you cannot find trash on it if you tried. Architecture is lovely. Sports are a big part of the Williams life. If that is what you are interested in, then it's a great fit for you - just consider whether or not it is right for you.

Amherst is about 1.5 to 2.0 hours from Boston, and it's not far from CT as well. The five college consortium includes UMass Amherst, which has some 15,000 students; Smith; Mt. Holyoke, and Hampshire. (If I messed up, please correct me!). The latter three are fairly small colleges, with two of them being all-women's schools. UMass Amherst is known as ZooMass. I would suggest visiting Amherst before committing to it... certainly apply, but do see whether or not the social scene is right for you. Again, when you are differentiating Williams and Amherst, the academics are both so well-regarded that the differences are all in location and fit for you.

I honestly know nothing about Swathmore, so I won't try to say something.

Now, when I was looking at schools, I did apply to Williams... liked it a lot, but not enough for ED. Basically, I knew people there, spent an overnight, liked a lot about it, but was kind of turned off by the wealthy, white, somewhat homogeneous campus. It's a matter of personal preference though... I just didn't like feeling out of place wearing jeans. Of course, please do not generalize about the entire Williams culture based on this - it was just my observation that I felt I wouldn't fit in too well there.

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

I think Haon got it about right as to certain differences, and Aries got the distances right. I don't understand the remarks about Williams being fashion-conscious or a place where one would feel out of place wearing jeans...that's all my daughter (W '07) wears! And I've made a half-dozen multi-day trips there over the last year and a half, and most of the kids I saw dressed as if they were planning to go camping or to go play softball. On family weekend, we visited classes, and at least a couple of kids in every class were wearing shorts and flip-flops, despite there being a thin coating of snow on the ground. I saw not a single "fashion plate" (doesn't mean there aren't any.)

I live near Swarthmore, and know lots of grads and current students. It's a very intellectual place, and they work very hard (but that's true at all three). I think the thing that sets it most apart from Amherst--and particularly Williams--is the strong de-emphasis of athletics. There are sports opportunities, but my impression is that in the current environment, few care about them. They recently did away with football (to the chagrin of many alums) because, the president said, they couldn't justify turning away people with 1600 SATs in order to field a football team.

Swarthmore is closest to a major city, being 20-30 minutes from Philly by commuter train. It's in an upper-class suburban community, similar to Haverford College and Bryn Mawr College. Lovely, classic campus. However, I've always thought the "isolation" issue is way overstated when considering these schools. Few of the Swarthmore people I've known spent much time going into the city, because they were too busy, and there were ample opportunities for recreation without going through the minor hassle of going downtown. Unless you're really sure you need--and have the time--to see major musicians/plays every other week while you're going to school, I think it would be a shame to rule out "isolated" schools on that basis alone. If you're really sure about that need, then maybe you should be looking at urban schools like Columbia or NYU. *Just* my own POV.

Amherst and Williams are very similar, as schools. However, I don't think Amherst is much less "isolated" than Williams in any meaningful way. It's an hour closer to Boston, but still 2 hours away. Not an easy trip for a busy student. One trade-off: it's an hour further from good skiing. It's closer to a lot of suburbs and strip malls, and other schools. In that sense, it reminds me a little of Princeton. Very fine school, pretty campus, nice little town, but as soon as you're out of the immediate environs...you're in central New Jersey.

By Smorealum (Smorealum) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:36 pm: Edit

This thread is a lesson in the importance of avoiding stereotypes.

Swarthmore fields 22 men's and women's varsity teams every year, including baseball, basketball, track & field, badminton, swimming, lacrosse, tennis, and soccer, and there are plenty of intramural and pick-up teams as well. If Swatties don't play sports, who are all those people on the field?

The decision to cut football at Swarthmore in 2000 was difficult and painful for the whole campus, mainly because so many people on campus do care about athletics. The decision engendered much discussion, controversy, and debate, which is hardly surprising --- this was Swarthmore, after all. After football was cut, some football players left, but many stayed. At least one transferred to Williams and returned to Swarthmore after a semester.

I graduated from Swarthmore and have a nephew at Williams. I'm convinced that the Swarthmore honors program was absolutely right for me; my nephew, on the other hand, has settled in quite happily at Williams.

To anyone who is torn between the two schools, I can only advise the obvious: visit them both.

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 07:57 pm: Edit

The OP asked for specific differences among the 3 schools. There is a strong emphasis on fielding competitive teams at A and W that is conspicuously absent at S, and it makes for a different environment. Not better, not worse. Just different. No one said there weren't athletic opportunities at S....in fact, I noted that there were.

By Smorealum (Smorealum) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Driver, you wrote that, at Swarthmore, "few care about" athletic opportunities. That was the misimpression that I was concerned to correct, since so many Swarthmore students do care about and participate actively in varsity and intramural sports.

It's almost certainly true that A and W set aside significantly more admissions slots for athletes than S does, with a view to posting better W-L records for their teams.

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Sorry. My bad. Playing college sports is a huge committment, and the athletes that participate at any school "care about them." I had in mind the student body as a whole, and the administration. And again, I didn't mean it as a knock against the school, just that it was an aspect that distinguished Swarthmore from the other two in question, where intercollegiate athletics are more widely considered to be an important element of campus life.

Edit: Does Swarthmore tip *any* athletes? My guess would be not.

By Smorealum (Smorealum) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Driver,
Thank you for your clarification, with which I generally agree. There is a difference among the colleges along these lines. I am reminded of the comments of Nancy Bekavac, Swarthmore alumna and Scripps College president, in a December 10, 2000, letter to The New York Times:

"The comments of [Swarthmore] alumni decrying the decision [to discontinue football] were articulate and passionate, no surprise for Swarthmore graduates. But it is hardly the case that athletics is undervalued in American society or higher education. Compare press coverage of, say, the Heisman Trophy announcement to the naming of Rhodes or Marshall scholars. Intellectual rigor, artistic innovation, social engagement and civil discussion - the core of a Swarthmore education - are less well understood and less celebrated than achievements on the gridiron. But not at Swarthmore. The division between valuing athletics and intellect is ancient, going back to the roots of Western civilization. Consider Sparta and Athens. Swarthmore has always stood with the Athenians. Who now remembers the won-lost record of the Spartans?"

By Driver (Driver) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 11:27 pm: Edit

Ha! I vaguely remember that NYT letter! Or perhaps Berkavac was quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer Sunday Magazine cover story that ran about the football flap--I remember that line anyway. The Athenians took their athletics as seriously as their academics, as I recall from my school days, and I don't think keeping those poor 1400+ SAT football players would have exactly turned Swarthmore into ancient Sparta. But it was a great rhetorical flourish!

By Fredmurtz2 (Fredmurtz2) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 01:21 am: Edit

Haon:

I have a question or two, if you wouldn't mind.

Do you think a non-athlete could fit in at Williams or is it ingraned in the culture?
(I mean, I know that theoretically anyone can fit in anywhere if they look hard enough but would it be a long, time-consuming thing)?

How cold does it get up there?

How did you find the aid to be (if you applied)?

Thanks

By Zorro5280 (Zorro5280) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 09:15 am: Edit

I recall someone asking about athletics during my Swarthmore tour. The guide said, "Yes, we have them. But we're not very good at most of them. For instance, we schedule a lot of games and meets against local high school teams. And lose."

By Driver (Driver) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Fred,
While you wait for Haon's response (the coming week is exam week...could be a while), here are a few links that may help answer some questions. The first is to the local weather site. In my experience, the temperatures typically run about 10-15 degrees cooler than here in Philadelphia. Using this site, you can make your own daily or weekly comparison to where you live. A professor told me they had a two-week stretch last year where the temperature never got above zero.

http://www.weather.com/weather/local/01267

The following two links are to articles about Williams' approach to varsity athletics. They'll give you some sense of how it works there. More to your specific question about a non-athlete fitting in: My daughter had to be rather persistently coaxed by the coach of her winter sport to come out for the team. This was because she was having such a great time with her non-athletic activities and friends that she was reluctant to give them up for the more rigorous commitment to a varsity sport.

http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i26/26a03701.htm

http://www.ncaa.org/news/2002/20020722/active/3915n02.html

By Smorealum (Smorealum) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Zorro,
Of course, that's not the whole picture. This past week, for example, the Swarthmore men's basketball team scored 58 points against Division I Lehigh, and the Swarthmore women beat Ursinus.

This is different from the old days. Many years ago, Swarthmore's football team regularly played against, and sometimes defeated, Princeton. (Some have claimed that the "football team" in those days included ringers who took the train down from Philadelphia for the occasion, but I can't verify this.) Much more recently, a group of Swatties beat Penn State, Brown, and NYU at a Mock Trial tournament at Princeton, using a pick-up team with no faculty or legal coach. Take your pick.

By Haon (Haon) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Chrisy--going on the college finder website isn't really "doing research." Williams is most definitely NOT a fashion-conscious school. I'm wearing jeans right now. My roommate is wearing jeans. I'm guessing more people on campus are wearing jeans than any other type of pants. Williams isn't any preppier or homogenous than ANY other elite school (less, in fact, than most). Williams has a similar %age of students on finaid, and a similar average family income as basically all of the top 10 unis and LACs have. It's about 50/50 private/public last I checked. This year's freshman class is 10% African American, 10% Hispanic American, and 10% Asian American (30% total). It's also about 10-15% International students, which makes the campus only 55-60% white american...
Geographically, Williams isn't quite as diverse as the Ivy League schools, but it is one of the most geographically diverse LACs.

Williams is about 2.5 hours from Boston, 1 hour from Albany, 1 hour from Northampton, 3.5 hours from NYC and 4 hours from Montreal. Williamstown is a very quaint new england town with all of the amazing restaurants and cafes a college student could ever need. There is a small movie theatre (that plays typically more "artsy" movies), a drug store, and several other stores aimed at college students. You couldn't find a friendlier, safer college town anywhere. While Williams is slightly further away from major cities, it is in a very artistic area. There are two art museums on campus, WCMA (one of the few best college art museums in the country), and The Clark Art Institute (probably one of the top 5 best art museums in the country). MASS MOCA, one of the best contemporary art museums in the country is about 10 minutes away. Tanglewood is an hour away.

I'm not an athlete and I feel like I fit in just fine on campus (it's never been even the slightest issue). Everybody is incredibly friendly and accepting so cliques are really not an issue. The biggest impact athletics have on campus is the amount of school spirit they bring out of the student body. Everybody loves and supports the sports teams (which, are for the most part, are amazing). It's a great environment when everybody is rooting for everyone. It would take significantly more effort NOT to fit in at Williams than to fit in.

The weather here is amazing. This weekend we got about 15" of snow and people have been cross country skiing to meals. There seem to be constant snowball fights/sledding trips going on (it's finals week and the snow is the perfect study break). It definitely gets cold here, but I'm from Maryland and I don't find it really that much colder (talking to my parents, I don't think it IS that much colder). The weather is beautiful 9/10 of the time (much nicer than anywhere else I've ever lived).

My parents handled the aid-portion of my application and won't give me any of the details. From what I've heard, the college is very generous with aid (more so than most), and most of the aid comes in the form of grants. If you want to get a campus job, there are many, easy (and entertaining) jobs available that pay very well. I'm working as a staff accompanist (I play piano and accompany instrumentalists on recitals), and I get paid 8.25 tax-free dollars and hour to practice piano...personally I couldn't think of a better job.

Williams is no better of a school than Amherst and Swat is no better than Williams--all three schools are on the exact same academic par. The students work incredibly hard at all three places and seem to suceed to similar degrees at all three places. I felt like I'd get a much better undergraduate experience at Williams than at Swat or Amherst, but I'm sure not everybody will. I'd strongly recommend, if you're interested in one of the colleges, to do overnights at all three of the colleges, because you may find one that fits slightly better than the rest.

I appologize for my slow response--it's finals week...and I appologize for future slow responses for the same reason...but if you have any more questions, please ask.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Haon: best of luck on finals. If you write them anywhere nearly as well and eloquently as you write here about Williams, you will ace them all.

By Fredmurtz2 (Fredmurtz2) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Thanks, Williams has just scooted up on the list.

By Fredmurtz2 (Fredmurtz2) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Haon,

Thank you for taking the time to write the information about Williams. It has just scooted up the ole list a bunch.

Thanks
Fred

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 06:35 pm: Edit

i read the "College Finder" by Antonoff and "Choosing the Right College" by Beer, which quote at Williams "there's alot a junk to weed out".

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 07:55 pm: Edit

i'm liking swarthmore more and more...

By Saxmaster (Saxmaster) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Davidson anyone?

I've visited Swarthmore and WIlliams and I liked Davidson more than either of them. Statistically, it's nearly identical to the big Three LACs. It only lags behind in the reputation/prestige of Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst. I suggest that anyone interested in these three schools look into Davidson.

By Chrisy (Chrisy) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 10:07 pm: Edit

i'm looking into davidson, saxmaster you should also consider carleton, grinnell, and kenyon.

By Aspirer42 (Aspirer42) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 10:42 pm: Edit

Though you'd have to either be a political moderate or rather tolerant/uncognizant to like both Swarthmore and Davidson, mind you. (Not that it's impossible; I'm applying to both. Great schools, and Davidson is an especially great bargain if you're from the underrepresented North.)

By Patient (Patient) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 12:17 am: Edit

My son recently visited Davidson and then a couple of weeks later, Pomona. He felt that Pomona was more relaxed and diverse, and that there was less pressure at Pomona to go to certain parties and be part of the crowd than at Davidson (if I'm understanding him correctly). Also there was a fair amount of drinking at Davidson at the parties. (He spent two days at each campus and stayed in the dorms, thus had a fair amount of time to take things in, as college trips go.) Any thoughts?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 01:46 am: Edit

I've heard that Davidson is one of the harder drinking schools but don't know what weight to assign this.

By Cadettony (Cadettony) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 01:50 am: Edit

Williams recently had one or two students win Rhodes scholarships- on par with Harvard, West Point, and other top-tier institutions, which speaks volumes about it's academic credentials.

Just my 2 cents.

By Sarbear (Sarbear) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 02:21 am: Edit

Cadettony - So did the University of Utah. Still wanna argue?

By Patient (Patient) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 11:20 am: Edit

And how big is Williams? How big is the University of Utah?

By Patient (Patient) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 11:24 am: Edit

TheDad: I am speaking based only on second-hand information, but it kind of seemed like the kids were expected to go to these parties or risk being a bit ostracized. That may be an exaggeration. That's why I give it a bit more weight; obviously drinking is an issue on most campuses, but whether there is pressure to attend and/or participate is of concern. Thanks for the input

By Smorealum (Smorealum) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Cadettony,
Both Swarthmore and Williams have had Rhodes winners in the last two years. This is gratifying, but the Rhodes is sufficiently quirky that it is hard to draw broad conclusions. More telling, perhaps, is that both Swarthmore and Williams are consistently among the leaders in all national fellowships combined and in placements to leading graduate and professional programs.

By Sarbear (Sarbear) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Patient - Cadettony is saying that the fact that Williams produces Rhodes Scholars attests to their "academic credentials." Nothing to do with the student body, so school size doesn't matter. I'm saying these people win because of who there are, not where they go to school. Next?

By Haon (Haon) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 02:31 am: Edit

Sarbear--school size matters absolutely...

First of all, Rhodes Scholars are not chosen on academic merit alone, they are chosen on basis of a huge amount of factors (including academic merit, character, extracurriculars, etc).

You make the mistake of assuming that where someone goes to school won't shape who they are. A school encouraging of the standards that epitomize Rhodes scholars will produce more scholars.

You also fail to observe Patient's point--when two people win at Williams that means that 1/200 people in the Sr class are Rhodes-material. When two people at Utah win that means that 1/2,000 in their Sr class are Rhodes-material...that's a HUGE difference. Per-capita comparisons are required when comparing large schools to small schools and per-capita the two at Williams is ten times as large a value as the two at Utah.

It's also important to note, not just the number of honors a school wins THIS year, but the number that the school's won in the past ten years or so. It's great that Williams and Utah had exceptional years this year, but it's really the #of Rhodes over a larger period of years that demonstrates a schools excellence.

I don't know about Utah, but Williams has had numerous Rhodes scholars over the past 10 years.

Also, as Smorealum says, # of Rhodes Scholars is not the best way to measure scholastic achievement of students...I agree, national fellowships and placements into grad and prof schools are much more indicative of a school's quality (and Williams, Amherst and Swarthmore are consistantly among the top in the nation in all of those categories...they do comparibly as well as HYPS).

By Swattie (Swattie) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 11:04 pm: Edit

I have been accepted to Swarthmore ED, and I am so excited. Both of my parents went to Williams and have been great in not pushing it. They both realized it is not for everyone. I would have loved Williams if I hadn't lived in Mass. my whole life and if it was closer to a major city. Even if I don't go into a city every weekend, I would like the opportunity.

I never even considered Amherst because everyone from my public school will go to UMass Amerherst and I could not stand to see them at parties.

Swarthmore will hopefully be a great school for me, I think I could have been happy at Williams too, I love there Winter Study program.

I too considered Davidson, and it was on my list to apply to in the event of not being accepted ED. I think it might have been harder for me to fit in there, especially with reputation of being conservative.

It is funny because I think Swarthmore might be a little too liberal. I am so excited and I hope everyone finds a school to be happy at.