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Does any one know some universities that sends students to top medical schools?

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Well I can tell you the top schools for avg mcat scores: Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Yeshiva University, and u of chicago.

By Horseman (Horseman) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3), where did you get the highest mcat scores from? Is there a website or book? Thank you. Anyone else... bumpity bump

By Haon (Haon) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Johns Hopkins, HYPS all do very well for med school.
AWS do just as well (LACs).

By Jlq3d3 (Jlq3d3) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 03:41 pm: Edit

There was a post a few months ago listing the highest med scores. I just remembered the top scores. It was interesting because hyps didnt do that hot compared to some other schools. Harvey Mudd was the highest LAC and they have a focus in science so thats probobly why. The best lacs are harvery mudd, Pomona, Swathmore, and Carlton.
I just fount the post. CalTech 628,Harvey Mudd 615, Yeshiva 613, Chicago 608, Cornell 600, Queens 596, Rennselaer Polytech Inst 596, MIT 596, Cooper Union 592, Yale 590, Brown 588, Pembroke 586, Carleton 585, Rice 585, Swarthmore, 584, Pomona 583, Harvard, 582, Augsburg 581, Brandeis 579, Clarkson 579, Wabash 578, Union 576, Barnard 576, Hamilton 576, U of Rochester 575, Western Maryland College 572, Lehigh 572, Oberlin 572, Occidental 572, Reed 572, Princeton 570, Stanford 570, Lafayette 568, Columbia 567, Franklin and Marshall 567, Johns Hopkins 567, Muhlenberg 566, Haverford 565, Dartmouth 563, McMurray (TX) 562, Williams 562, Duke 561, Wesleyan 561, Bowdoin 560, Middlebury 560, Colgate 560, Trinity (CT) 560, Penn 560, Grinnell 559, Ohio Wesleyan 558, Northwestern 558, UCLA 557, UCBerkeley 557, Calvin College 556, St. Thomas (Minn.) 554, Boston College 554, Illinois Institute of Tech 553, College of Wooster 553, UC Davis 553, UCSC 551, UCSD 551, Penn State 550, U of Delaware 550, Washington U St. Louis 550, Denison College 550

The info was from the book looking beyond the ivies.

By Haon (Haon) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 03:21 pm: Edit

This is a very out-of-date list...it's from a book published several years ago based on data collected years before then.

It's also extremely misleading--on no accounts are Western Maryland College or Wabash better than Princeton, Stanford, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, Dartmouth, Duke, etc...

By Ksolo (Ksolo) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 03:53 pm: Edit

This is a difficult question to answer. But the Ivies tend to send a good number each year. However, you have to be careful if you see information about a school which states "90-something percent of our pre-med students went on directly to med-school." Why? Because some prestigious undergrad colleges only recommend 7 to 12 students to med school directly after graduation. And this is out of a total of 50-100 pre-med students. Some schools urge most of their premed students to take a year off, while they select only the cream of the crop pre-med students for recommendation (who all just happen to get into the schools they apply to). So in turn, the school will say "100% of our premed students that apply to med school directly after our undergrad have been accepted." See the trick?

Admissions into med school is highly competitive. And it's a crap shoot. Most don't get in unfortunately. I think the Ivies, and other really prestigious schools like Swarthmore might be your best bet. But then again, even when you get to such schools, you really have to work your butt off to being one of their best students (otherwise they wont even recommend you). They'll tell you to wait a year or so, and then they'll recommend you (this way, even if you are rejected, they dont have to add it to their stats).

By Brownalum (Brownalum) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:54 pm: Edit

THE POST ABOUT AVERAGE SCORES IS CR*P

Those schools can report whatever they want to report, by changing the definition of who actually "applied" to med school. If you see a post showing the "acceptance rates" into med schools, that is also suspect. The ones who don't get in don't have to be self-reported by the colleges, and colleges often even "screen" applicants by refusing to issue them transcripts and recommendations and stuff if they think they don't have a chance of getting in (HYP, Caltech, Brown, of course do not do this).

The best premed schools, based on the number of admissions to top programs, were ranked by Gourman a few years ago. His ranking was 1. Caltech, 2. MIT, 3. Yale, 4. Harvard, 5. Johns Hopkins, 6. Amherst, 7. Princeton, 8. Swarthmore, 9.Columbia, 10.Stanford.

Face it, HYP and Caltech do the best when it comes to getting their applicants into the top med schools.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Juniata College in Pennsylvania gets 100% students who apply to med school in nearly every year. 23% of their 1227 students are pre-health profession majors (i.e., pre-med, pre-dental, pre-vet) with pre-med majors being the most common. So, that means there are about 280 pre-health majors at Juniata. Let's say that just a quarter of those apply to med school (the number is probably higher), that means 70 people - or about 31% of each graduating class - are accepted to med school each year. This from a tiny school that most people have never heard of (but which has EXCELLENT pre-health preparation programs)

Of course, I'm sure many will tell me that doesn't mean they all get into "TOP" medical schools...but it's still pretty good odds to me if you really want to go to med school - especially for a school that gives lots of merit scholarships, including full rides, and isn't all that difficult to get into.

I wonder how this compares to schools like Johns Hopkins, etc.. Obviously the "name" schools have more students overall and probably more pre-med majors in terms of sheer numbers. Does any one have any specific facts on this?

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit

whoops sorry - double posted.

By Haon (Haon) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Brownalumn--whyle your list isn't terrible, you've left some top schools off, and the ordering is suspect. The Gourman Report is probably a less reliable report than that average MCAT scores list (according to Gourman, there were several top colleges with excellent programs in areas where the colleges didn't have programs).

Carolyn--please post a link for that...I'm curious what % of their 23% pre-health students apply to med school, and which med schools they apply to...

Many schools only list med school acceptance rates of "qualified" students or "first and second chance" students combined (if someone doesn't get in their first application round and applies to a different set of schools the following year and gets admitted, many schools will consider that a 1/1 on that student). However, several schools DO publish their ACTUAL med school acceptance rate, and you can find out that of those that don't by emailing the school.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Well, I'm going to backtrack - remember, I was only guess-a-mating how many people Juniata sends to medical school each year based on various sources. I went back and dug deeper into their web site and here are some more solid facts:

Juniata does publish the specific numbers of how many students apply and how many get in for all of their pre-health major programs. In the past five years, it looks like 95-100% of students applying to medical school have been accepted. Med school placements have included the University of Pennsylvania, Mayo, Johns Hopkins, Albert Einstein, Tulane, Temple, among others.
However, they are very clear about their numbers if you look through their health professions section: they send about 10-12 students a year. So my guest-a-mate was waaaaaaaaay off. Sorry. That's probably about 4% of the graduating class, not 30%

However, in addition to med school, their pre-health majors also do seem to do very well with acceptances to pre-dental, pre-vet, chiropractic programs, etc. They also have a 3-4 BS/MD affiliation with Tulane (and many other professional medical/health graduate programs) which is worth looking into if you don't have the grades for some of the tougher 3-4 programs. And, they offer some really great internship and research opportunities (including the chance to do summer research with a Harvard professor who is an alumni) for pre-health majors. One thing that struck me is that it sounds like their pre-health advisors give a lot of hand-holding and personal attention to students which could really boost admissions chances in the long run.

Anyhow, no, it's not a Johns Hopkins or Harvard --- but if you're interested in pre-health majors and maybe don't have stellar stats, it may be a good option to look at.

www.juniata.edu

By Haon (Haon) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

hmm...that does change a lot...

it seems that Juniata only recommends that their top students go to med schools, and thus focuses on getting all of those top students into their top choices. This is both good and bad. I agree, it's no JHU or Harvard, but it's worth looking at...
If you can afford (and are good enough to get into) an elite, Juniata may not be the best bet.
Else, go for it!

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit

Well, Haon, let's face it: it would be a heck of a lot easier to be a "top student" at a school like Juniata than it would at Johns Hopkins or Harvard. Something to consider.

But agreed: if you have the stats and money for a top school,go for it. If you are in the mid-range as a student (say 1200-1300 SATs and no chance of getting into Harvard or Johns Hopkins) and REALLY want to become a doctor, then Juniata deserves to be looked at for pre-health profession majors (pre-med, pre-vet, pre-dental, etc.)

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Haon, my niece really wanted to be a doctor for a very long time. She was a diligent student and did well with her grades, but had to work very hard for them and often needed outside help. Her SAT1s were 1220. However, she spoke fluent French, (her mother was French and she spent her first 8 years in Quebec) was extremely artistic with a lovely personality, demeanor and people skills. It did not hurt that she was extremely attractive as well. She was waitlisted by Cornell and cleared the waitlist after school let out. In the meantime she had selected a "noname" college that she liked, that offered her a near full ride, and a guarantee to med school if she made a 3.4 average with a higher premed course average and a 27 on the MCATS. Her close friend from highschool was going to Cornell and with the ivy aura, the pressure was on. Her brother who was in med school by then, via a high stress premed program at one of the top schools for this sort of thing was vehement that she not go to Cornell, knowing what it took to get into med school from a place like that. She ended up turning down Cornell and is in medical school today. Her friend who was a quick, bright young lady who had high test scores as well as great grades did not make the cut. She bombed organic lab and did not get top grades in several other premed courses. Though she did slightly better than my girl on the MCATs, she did not get accepted in any of the 23 med schools where she applied. She is in a biochem doctoral program and is going to reapply, this year, I believe.
My daughter, who currently wants to be a doctor, is taking the same route as her cousin because she too would have difficulties at a Cornell, Hopkins or other school and is blossoming at this small LAC where the college is determined to get the premeds into med school and has study groups, tutoring, special help so that they learn the subjects well, particularly the sciences. They help arrange internships, research and volunteerwork so that she gets direct experience and her resume looks good. There are not that many premeds in the program so a lot of attention can be given to them and there is not the cutthroat atmosphere that my nephew had to endure.
There are many paths to ones goals and the most obvious one is not always the right one or the the most pleasant one to take. Both girls are really enjoying their college experiences and barely stressed at all. They are also enjoying the science courses and the ECs they have joined. My daughter is currently dating a young man who is premed at a high stress college near by and though his academic stats are terrific, he is always anxious about grades, studying and whether he will get an internship, a recommendation and whether some grad student or even fellow premed will trip him on his way to the finish line. I don't think his quality of life is very high at all.
There are many such nurturing schools and they all do have certain grade and MCAT requirements, but believe me, they help kids make their goals, not become gatekeepers making the premeds run through a gauntlet during college. Why pay $50,000 per year to be abused and have obstacles thrown in your way? Those who do make it are certainly well prepared, cream of the crop, and if you are one of those who thrive on challenges, the Hopkins, MITs, Swarthmores, Cornells, UPenns are certainly for you. In my son's class, more than 50% of the kids were premed. Out of those kids, less than 20% made it to the application to Med school stage, but 94% (not sure exactly) did get into a med school. The average number of med school where they applied was 12. My niece's group had 90% remain premed. And all but one made their statistical goal and were guaranteed a med school spot. About half of them applied to other med school anyways, and they all got into something other than the guarantee. My niece just stuck to the program. She had other things she preferred to do with her time than applications, interviews, waiting and hoping.
So the choices are not always so easy.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

The med school stories are of interest to me since S currently has some longer range interest in that field. I have come to believe that it is true that it is easier to be accepted to med school with good grades from a less competitive college, as Jamimom (and others) has indicated.

Is there anyone who reads this who can offer even the slightest reason as to why this should be the case. As difficult as it is to be admitted to med school, and as many foreign educated doctors as we have practicing, one wonders why medical school classes are not enlarged.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit

This is just my theory. My nephew went to a top premed school. The main emphasis there was on research. Medical research included. It was really frowned upon to say you wanted to be a general practitioner or practice medicine. Really it was just a step away from saying you were in it for the money. Research was the keyword. And this school certainly had the stats in its student body to hope for a new generation of brainiac researchers. So the climate was to raise a group of kids who would become great researchers and to weed out those who did not have the firepower or staying power to go into this world. The professors at this university were all involved in research, many at the world class level. And the courses were often taught at graduate school levels. Indeed some of the graduate students had to sit in on the undergraduate courses to get to the level of the programs. All of this is very impressive and I ican see the bright future it can bring about but if you want to be a pediatrician or an internist, you are buying into a risk of not being able to make the grade cuts. Every class would eliminate a group of kids who did not put the time into the subject, did not have the brainpower or were having some issues that term. And any of these things can happen at any time to even the brightest, most mature college kid. The problem is that med school only accept about 7-8% overall from the top group of kids who even make it to the application stage. See, unlike highschool, where you can get a teacher or someone to recommend you, to get into med school you generally need to get the recommendation of a committee formed for that purpose. If they recommend a couple of years off or into graduate school or the "islands", you really don't have much negotiating room.. What they are saying is that you don't stack up and you are not getting a rec. So in addition to getting the MCAT scores and grades, in some of these schools, you need a mentor. If you get unlucky and he leaves before you graduate, you are stuck without an advocate for your case. The more powerful your mentor, the better you chances of getting into med school, all other numbers being equal. And to get a mentor in these schools, you generally work a lot of off hours in a lab for the guy. My nephew spent many, many hours weighing rat excrement for some medical professor as part of his research time. He spent his summers washing testtubes and being the lab gopher. And he was a lucky one. Many who were working for this guy were Postgrads, a terrible, terrible position. These seem to be folks left in limbo.. They went to grad school, got their PHD and are now working for some full professor on some research project waiting, hoping for a big break so they can get it on their resume and get an assistant professorship somewhere. Most of these guys have given up the medschool route.
That is what I saw through my nephews eyes. He had somone who helped him through the process and with because the boy was smart and by that time mature, he was able to get the grades and other stats necessary to get into medical school. He said many, many did not make it, and most were much smarter than the kids in his sister's program who did go to medical school. Now, granted, those who made it through my nephew's school probably were much better educated in the bio, chem, research, etc fields. Because my niece's peers all went to med school with the idea of opening up shop as a doctor. None of them had research in mind at all. Whereas my nephew's peers wer all qualified to become MD/PHDs if they so chose. Many of them are in the top residency programs, and I'm sure they are the cream of the crop in medicine. For this country to have the top quality doctors, this process serves as a screen.
The problem with this as you can see, is if you have a kid who would love to become a doctor, would make a great sawbones, but is not intensely into the research end of it, he is going to be cut off at the knees. Not a black and white situation--obviously some kids make it.Carolyn's last post really nailed the situation. For the super bright, ambitious, motivated, student with high stats, go to Rochester, Hopkins, Cornell,Tufts,etc. But if your child is hovering under 1400 on the SATs, wants a social life, needs extra work or help with the chem and advanced math, and wants to be a doctor, well, I have a different list of schools for him. He does not need to be competing with the real sharks. My nephew was one tough, bright kid and already 21 when he started his premed program. He said there were kids who studied 18-20 hours a day, 7 days a week. They commuted to school, some of them and mom and dad did everything for them so they could study, study, study. There were quite a few asians in this catergory and many were not one bit interested in any kind of campus life. They were on a mission to get into med school. They had 5's on all the math and science APs, many had parents who were doctors to help them out, and they spent every bit of their time working on school assignments and studying for the MCATS. I could not see my girls in that rat race. You can just imagine the stress factor. That is why schools with a large number of engineers and premeds do not have high social life ratings. It does color the atmosphere of the school.
Now, I am painting this picture at its bleakest and at an extreme. There are bright well rounded kids who are premeds in these environment who make it. It's just statistically, if you are not a certain type or cannot turn into that type, it's not going to be easy to get the numbers for a rec into medschool.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit

jmom

I am not familiar with having to get a committees recommendation for med school. I need to get up to date.

I am familiar from visits this summer with the "RESEARCH" mantra. This is new in the last 30 years. I do not understand it yet, and have a vague idea that it is part of a vast academic conspiracy to ensure that they are able to spend their fair share of the federal tax dollar and deficit. [unlike eveyone else who spends federal $!] .

I have heard people say that medical schools are profit centers for their schools. I do not know if this is accurate. If it were, you would think that there would have been a bunch of new medical schools added over the past few decades. I am not informed about this, but I dont believe there have been.

One of the issues---similar to the ED quesion-- is whether to target a university from which to maximize your med school chances, or, recognizing that most people targeting the profession are not successful in their goal, to target a university that has a top notch reputation anyway and take your chances with how you do in the med-school competition.

Appropos (sp?) your research story, my guess is that S is more interested in practicing and really doesnt give a rat's *** about research.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Jamimom, As always your posts are well-thought out and informative. You always give me something to think about. Thanks.
Carolyn

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 09:56 pm: Edit

The problem with medical school admissions is that the % accepted is so low. Grab a USNWR on graduate programs and take a look at the numbers. It's easier to get into Harvard. And these are the kids who have a shot at getting in because unlike with colleges, you need support from the school you are in to even apply. (not really completely true; there are ways around this but the results are predictable if you do not get your recs the way the system has it set up) The med schools with the more generous (still stingy compared to selective undergrad colleges) accept rates tend to serve their own state residents; ie they are some of the state schools. So unless you are lucky enough to be a resident of such a state, you are truly in a rat race.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 09:42 am: Edit

Yes, this is what I am asking about. Perhaps because of all the programs to pay for it, colleges have sprung up left and right, so that if you want a bachelors degree, you can be admitted to one and get it.

Why hasn't this happened in medical schools, especially when the marginal candidate who is rejected is more than qualified ? The only explanations for it to me is that there is some artificial restriction on establishing a medical school and awarding degrees. You could double the number of medical students in the US and not have any material decrease in quality of care.

By the way, for those interested an uninformed, as I am, the Amherst college medical school advisory write up is pretty good. Jamimom, it echos what you said about the state schools and suggests that students not waste their time applying to an out of state medical school.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 10:30 am: Edit

Yep. There is a premed board on this site. I lurk there occaisionally, but have found that my theories don't have much place there. The kids are looking for 7 year combined programs or fixated in triple majors or getting a fix on what is the best medical school. When it comes to applying to med school, you just hope you get into one. The numbers are frightening.
The restriction on doctors is, I believe, set by the AMA and doctors in general to keep the salaries at the level they are. In the high cost of living areas, cities, there is already a glut of doctors and they no longer are the premier wage earners. With malpractice costs and managed care moving into the scene, many doctors do not make what they thought they would be able to make, even though their income is still very high by most standards and their quality of life has improved drastically with the group practice situation most of them have. Many of the foreign doctors who come here get in through the research window because that is where the gatekeepers of medical school see the need. In many med schools admissions offices it is the kiss of death to say you want to practice>you might as well say you want to make money. The key word is research, research. And all the kids in the research associated universities know this. My nephew, after 8 years in this environment wants to go into pediatric oncology which just by its nature, a research type field. Most hospitals with that department are associated with research. So he still has a way to go before he starts earning enough to make a dent in those horrorific loans he has taken. The only stumbling block to his plans is that he is getting sick of being poor, and is anxious to start getting some money and leaving the student ghetto. A fellowship in onclogy is not going to bring in the bucks. And he would be going into research which just does not pay as much as being a practitioner. The benefit of his "pedigree", top notch undergraduate research institution followed by a top notch reseach med school is that he is a strong contender for fellowships and research affiliated positions associated with research hospitals. I do not think my girls will be, but that is not what they want. The one went to medical school with a lower selectivity (but still daunting) and the other is looking at a school where, again, the admit % is not as tough as the one where my son went. But the first one is in, and I believe my daughter will get in if she keeps working the way she is. I don't think they would have been able to keep up if they took my nephew's path. He was three years older when he embarked on his college life, and is very sharp and tenacious and directed.
I find that conventional wisdom does not always apply very well to our lives. For instance, there is an outcry for more teachers. But I know kids who are certified and unemployed. Alot of them and they have been looking for a while. Many are getting work a poor paying private schools as they search for a job. Others are subbing. There is a teacher shortage, but not in the desirable schools. These kids would be snatched up if they applied to an inner city school or some obscure location in North Dakota or Alabama. They want to work in a desirable area and in this school district as in most of the areas where we have lived, since we have always been within a half hour of a city, there are 400 applicants for each job. So it is for doctors. The plum assignments and areas are glutted. There are so many doctors here that they do not earn as much as you would think , and anywhere I have lived has had many medical choices. My mother in law has to travel quite a ways or go to the one sawbone in her town who is out of date, cranky, and thinks he's God (probably is , there since he runs the only show in town) She tells me it's really an issue for women who are expecting a child. Many are going the midwife route because the nearest OB is pretty far away. No one wants to practice in a deprived area. There are not many professional where she lives, too far from a city and no jobs for them nearby. So the doctors and teir associations fight to preserve their standard of living, even as we have acute shortages in outlying areas. And the researchers who sit on the top of the hierarchy (particularly in admissions to med school matters) are looking for promising minds for research.
Again this is all my opinion based on what I have seen and experienced. I raised my niece and nephew, one is in med school,one is doing his residency. My daughter is in a premed program and she hopes to get into med school and become a doctor. My 13 year old son has premed aspirations, and it remains to be seen what route he will take to realize them. I will tell that I have worked for kids for many years as they enter college, and most premeds do NOT get into med school, Most of them blow their grades, usually in Organic Chem or Lab, sometimes the math, or the Biochem or Physics, and they are out of the running. Theyeither remain natural science majors and go into a medically related field without the high standards of getting into med school or change, usually to a Social Sciences major. Very few quit just because they lose interest, and even those who say this, have blown their grades as well. The kids who usually make it are the very directed, hardworking asian kids. Since the acceptance process is highly numbers driven and not really Bright Well Rounded Kid oriented, the typical asian student does well in the admissions rounds.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 10:33 am: Edit

And regarding state schools, when I lived in Pittsburgh, I knew people who moved to West Virginia to get residency there so that they could apply to the med schools as in state. Pa med schools are very selective, even among med schools. West Virginia's numbers look a lot better.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

bump